Discussion in 'ERAS and the NRMP Match' started by JerryMeisterMD, Mar 6, 2010.
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If you are not in ERAS, you will not be able to scramble with the list anyway.
I could be wrong, but my impression is that the list comes out on the 15th, which is in fact not this week.
The list comes out on the 15th.
Furthermore, since you did not participate in ERAS/NRMP, it would be illegal for an applicant in the Match to share this information with you.
No. I suggest you read previous post about it being illegal to share which programs are unfilled once it is revealed.
wow what attitude when you're the one who's asking for a favor.
please i'd love to share the list with you, cause not enough people are going to be scrambling without you. if you didn't realize the sarcasm, i don't think anyone will give you the list because they don't want the extra competition. you should have applied through ERAS if you wanted to get a copy of the list, or better yet why don't you stay with your current FM residency, unless you got fired then well then maybe you don't deserve another chance.
Not to mention the fact that anyone who did share the list with him would in turn jeopardize their standing with ERAS/NRMP
I heard that the NRMP is implanting a tracking code to the lists so they are trackable with distribution.
yeah it doesn't take much to register with eras and get a copy of the list. what was it like $50 or $90.. something like that. and who knows maybe you might even get a few interviews from a few of the 10 programs that you can apply to that's included in the fee.
Fascinating. Do you know the criminal statute by chance? Is it a local, state, or federal offense? Felony or misdemeanor?
Simple contract law. Read the NRMP terms that all match applicants agree too. No one said the act is "criminal" -- which based on your response -- you probably misconceived.
I don't make the rules. And yes, you're misunderstanding.
Illegal by the stipulations of the Match that you sign and agree to.
Agreed. Why would anyone want to jeopardize their own career by risking getting thrown out of the match simply to help you get something you could get on your own simply by registering and paying the fee. Only a fool would help you on this, and yes you are asking someone to break a contract, which is not "criminal", but certainly a breach of contract. It's not worth it to anyone to do this, the downside far far far far exceeds any benefit someone might get for helping you out. Don't bother asking.
Yeah, I know that it's a breach of a legal contract. I just find the word choice amusing, as the word 'illegal' used in the above context, to the lay person, typically indicates a criminal offence (you can go to jail, etc.) So I poked at it a bit
I am genuinely curious, however, as to what the legal remedy for a breach of what in this case is essentially a non-disclosure agreement would be, as I find it hard to imagine any real monetary damages that could result. I know that the contract stipulates you'd get 'match violator status' and potentially be barred from using the NRMP's services in the future, but other than this contractually stipulated tit-for-tat, what further remedy could be pursued?
Disclosure: I have no interest in providing/being provided with the scramble list inappropriately, I'm just curious about the law.
Since sharing the list is considered a breach of the agreement (per section 4.2), it would trigger a Match Violation investigation. If you're found to be in breach of the agreement, your match could be invalidated -- even after the fact. How this would all play out in court is anyone's guess. Whether the NRMP would really invalidate matches over sharing the match list is unknown -- given the changes coming next year to the scramble it's all a moot point anyway.
aProgDirector... maybe you can answer my question... and I admit I haven't actually looked into it, so if it is clearly spelled out somewhere, just tell me go look for it and I will, but how are they changing the scramble next year... our administration keeps saying they are changing the scamble next year, etc. etc., but I haven't heard the details of how it is going to be run... as someone on the other side of it, maybe you are privy to that information... maybe they haven't decided yet... maybe they aren't letting anyone know yet... who knows.
I doubt the NRMP would pursue monetary damages but they probably could. The list of unfilled programs has a monetary value as evidenced by the fact that ERAS charges people to use its services. I would imagine that whatever portion of the ERAS fees that can be attributed directly to having access to that list could be damages in any lawsuit. Essentially, ERAS loses money because whoever received free access to that list did not pay ERAS to register. The breaching party could theoretically be responsible for the lost ERAS fee(s) as a result of the original dissemination of the list (the damages could be compounded if the list gets circulated and distributed to more people).
This of course is all theoretical and not likely.
The managed scramble info starts on page 26. But I think everyone here might find the rest of the document interesting and useful.
Note According to this source and others, the implementation of the managed scramble is (tentatively) planned for 2012. Not next year.
Hey guys -
I go to the AAMC meetings as an OSR rep for my school - each time we get an update from Mona Signer, director of the NRMP. At the last meeting in boston she laid out the current plans for what they are calling the "managed scramble." I have attempted to attach the .pdf - hopefully it worked! Below is the text from the nrmp website - as it implies the info in the presentation is a work in progress and should by no means interpreted as the final plan. That said, i think it will be pretty close to this, with the most likely refinements having to do with the timeline. My personal take: the scramble will still suck, but this will make it "suck less" (anyone seen those recent nicorette commercials?) and help to solve the issue of these 3rd party matching services that are all the buzz this year. Also, note the "no earlier than 2011" - there are no guarantees that it will be implemented next year - i would operate under the assumption that its not until they officially announce otherwise. Hope this helps...
From the NRMP Website:
The NRMP Board of Directors, meeting in Washington, DC on May 4, 2009, voted to proceed with implementation of a "managed" Scramble for the Main Residency Match. A joint NRMP-AAMC work group will continue to refine the plan, which will require programs to offer and applicants to accept unfilled positions through the NRMP R3 System during Match Week. A "managed" Scramble would be implemented no earlier than the 2011 Match, according to NRMP Executive Director Mona M. Signer.
View attachment nrmp.pdf
I was glancing through the Powerpoint presentation on the NRMP website about how to use the system, and noticed the "program director view" has access to individual match violators. Is there a listing of ALL match violators just like all the programs are listed? Or do you have to specifically search for a candidate? Or is it restricted to just those who have applied to your program? Always been curious about this! If it's a listing of all match violators in a given year -- how many are there usually, and what's the usual crime?
It seems like no programs have been yanked from the match for violations, just given a meaningless scarlet letter... but individual violators seem to get more drastic action, like violations for life! Double standard!
I cannot see a master list of match violators. I can look people up, one at a time -- this is done if people are scrambling, for example.
If they were match violators they wouldn't be even eligible for the scramble?? What am I missing here?
The unfilled scramble list has been posted on this website several times in years past. So it seems hypocritical for people to be attacking this guy over asking for it.
I think it sucks for anyone to share the list to people who did not register - for those that are paying their dues and trying to do things the right way, and face alot of competition among others doing the same - to then increase the competition by aiding those cutting corners and cheating their way every step of the way sucks. Medicine already has its share of slackers and cheaters - the type of person a residency would get by selecting someone who scrambled in using a list they obtained by fraud would be one more who should be selling used cars, or working as a psychologist, or join the Catholic clergy or some other worthless cheating lying fraudulant profession.
Just because it's been posted before does not negate the fact it is a violation of match rules and therefore unethical to share. And unethical to ask.
Is that you Tom Cruise?
Tom Cruise was against psychiatry, not psychology
There is a difference. He stated he was against anti-depressant drugs and psychiatry. He was against science, not science fiction.
Lets guess who either had psychologists as parents, or has spent a small fortune on psychologists?
It's not just unethical, there are very real repercussions. If you entice someone to break a contract (registering for the match is a contract) you are creating very real liability for that person. They can get thrown out of the match, future matches, the scramble etc. That other people have broken their contracts in the past doesn't make it right for this dude to entice others down the same foolish road.
lol.. contract law..
Kinda like when contracts make you sign geographical non-compete clauses yet they can't enforce them in courts?
How does one find the scramble results?
Um no. This is the kind of contract that IS enforceable. Kind of like when you sign a mortgage and then try not to pay. They, like the mortgagor, have a built in threat -- they can throw you out of the match (much like you can be foreclosed upon). They could also bring you to court but this isn't as important a remedy for them. Most contracts have very real teeth, as long as they are within the bounds of law as drafted. Some non-compete clauses aren't, so they can't be enforced. The match is within the bounds of law, so guess what -- it is totally different. There's a reason law school is three years -- the lay public is very naive when it comes to things like contracts, as evidenced by the above post.
For yourself you mean? If you scramble into something, they are going to fax you a contract to sign, and then you are set. It's not like a match, it's more like a job interview, where you either get off the phone with a job or you don't.
If you mean how do you find out who else scrambled into where -- you can't. It's kept secret so that everybody who lands something can attend match day without feeling bad.
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