LMU-DCOM fires Dean over support for social change, thoughts?

[Xaos]

Probably. I’m not saying it’s an easy task, but these are the times we’re living in. Progress is only made through pain. And yes, almost all schools in the entire nation have gone through something similar. They weren’t all shut down right? They didn’t all stay like this did they?

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This is America.

I’ll repeat:

What do you suggest? And who?

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[NontradCA]

I’ll repeat:

What do you suggest? And who?

Well first speaking with the entire student body to get their thoughts on it and where they are at. That’s a good place to start. Maybe class by class with the schools administration.

 

[NontradCA]

I’ll repeat:

What do you suggest? And who?

I get where you’re coming from. Ultimately you’re just trying to score a residency spot and don’t want to put yourself in a position where you’re rustling jimmies. But there’s student government right? Like I was saying above try to get them to organize a forum with the administration. At least that would give everyone (even immature jackasses shouting MAGA) to share their thoughts.

 

[smol9877]

Just an update: LMU-DCOM was approved to have a protest this evening on campus. I have mixed feelings about it considering everything that has been brought to light. I will participate because I value racial equality and justice, but I also feel like a pawn used to show the community, “look, LMU isn’t racist- we are having a protest today!” I don’t want the real issues to get swept under the rug after this event.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Im a pretty moderate person so I try to see things as objectively (yet still flawed as i can) I agree admin here is malignant and that everyone should be able to speak freely as they can even if they are student. But let us be honestly. The latest shooting was totally justified. The dude did not listen to police and proceeded to go to his vehicle to do whatever it is that he wanted to even against police orders. There is racism in this country, there are bad cops, there needs to be reform, but this latest incident was totally justified. Unless you can tell me that under that circumstance you would not shoot someone, you are in the wrong. Live your days in one hour of police and tell me you would not do the same.


Protest what needs to be protested, but not everything is racist. If you call everything racist you will lose support of all those who are rational.


LMU DCOM admin sucs, has sucked for years, but not some SJW event comes out and people are finally complaining. complain about all things the school does wrong, not just what emotionally makes you feel like a justice warrior. I am more worried about the subpar education I received from this crap hole school than the board saying you can't protest.

Be reasonable, protest, but do not protest what needs not protested. The george floyd murder= murder, the lsat event in kenosha= justified use of force.


Be reasonable my friends, but do not overstretch bounds.


I am here with you to protest DCOM admin, but at least make it justified

#BLM, but within reason.

do work, but make sure it is work, and not emotional pandering from the far left.



This school sucks for man than just reasons related to social justice. They are a non profit that should be profit. They use students in all aspects to promote profit and for padding the pockets of those in admin. I would be perfectly fine with this if the school was labeled as a for profit entity, yet it is a non profit, thus tax payer dollars are used to pay for whatever it is admin thinks will provide them with more funds.


The education here sucks, admin sucks, Kessler sucks, Debust sucks, they are all terrible humans. Protest this in addition to police brutality, DO YOUR BEST. This school should absolutely not be in operation. This is coming from an alum. It is malignant in every way possible, made clear by recent priorities.

Please decry rioting and violence, while decrying racism. It is not a one way street. Do not look like a fool. I do not say this to promote my own thoughts but to promote an agenda that will actually last through time. the far Left is taking you too far, the far right is too off balance to event be mentioned, BUT JUST BE REASONABLE, so those after you will have solid ground to stand on.

#LMUSUCKS
#BLM
#bluelives also matter, as do those of law abiding citizen.

Do your work to bring the light to LMU DCOM, make them pay the price for being blind to current events, BUT ALSO, to the pathetic for profit mentally of this school cloaked in the pseudoveil of providing good to the rural community. Use the reasoning you obtained in underground and in medical school to show the true priorities of this malignant program.

 

[Xaos]

Well first speaking with the entire student body to get their thoughts on it and where they are at. That’s a good place to start. Maybe class by class with the schools administration.

I get where you’re coming from. Ultimately you’re just trying to score a residency spot and don’t want to put yourself in a position where you’re rustling jimmies. But there’s student government right? Like I was saying above try to get them to organize a forum with the administration. At least that would give everyone (even immature jackasses shouting MAGA) to share their thoughts.

Yes, there’s student government - they are the ones who told the students that their dean of students was fired because their faculty wouldn’t. They don’t want to burn bridges, either. If students are the only advocates for change, and there are no consequences to the university, change won’t happen. It’s too much to risk. The university won’t even tell the students that they fired their dean, you expect them to own up to the bias behind it?

Just an update: LMU-DCOM was approved to have a protest this evening on campus. I have mixed feelings about it considering everything that has been brought to light. I will participate because I value racial equality and justice, but I also feel like a pawn used to show the community, “look, LMU isn’t racist- we are having a protest today!” I don’t want the real issues to get swept under the rug after this event.

Not gonna sugar coat it - this is probably what will happen.

 

[deleted480308]

Yes, there’s student government - they are the ones who told the students that their dean of students was fired because their faculty wouldn’t. They don’t want to burn bridges, either. If students are the only advocates for change, and there are no consequences to the university, change won’t happen. It’s too much to risk. The university won’t even tell the students that they fired their dean, you expect them to own up to the bias behind it?



Not gonna sugar coat it - this is probably what will happen.

what exactly are the issues that are going to be swept under the rug?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

"This summer, many medical schools and institutions all over the nation came together in our white coats to kneel on behalf of BLM and our friends and colleagues of color. I am currently a student at LMU DCOM, and just like every other school, some of our students who were in town put together a peaceful kneel.

Our Asso. Dean of students, Dr. Jonathan Leo, happily approved the idea. He has always been an advocate for diversity and acceptance in our school. He's been an advocate for all of the students here in some way.

On August 17th, Dr. Leo was fired by LMU-DCOM for his approval of this movement. All of us are saddened and incredibly distraught by this - and we want to see a change.

On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."

*I am no way affiliated with this school, simply sharing the information*

What? They really did this. That’s BS, they fired him for advocating for students or something else, this is an excuse IMO.

 

[Xaos]

what exactly are the issues that are going to be swept under the rug?

Specifically, the students are angry that their dean of students was fired; they’re angry that he was fired for exposing the racism of LMU’s board of trustees; and they’re angry that he was fired for supporting their right to protest peacefully; they’re angry that the university and their leadership didn’t have the guts to even tell them that their dean of students was fired, leaving it to their SGA to break the news over informal group chats and Facebook groups.

More broadly, the university’s upper administration and leadership is racist. Student and faculty member(s) of color experience the consequences of that racism. It’s very likely that none of these will be addressed. The protest yesterday itself and the university’s tacit approval is a baby step in the right direction; but from what I have heard, was a big show on the university’s part that involved discouraging faculty and staff from participating, quietly intimidating students with a show of force from campus police, delaying the protest to defuse tension, and requiring protestors to wear LMU-branded masks (which I’m certain will be used in a publicity stunt with the copious footage their PR apparently collected). There’s a lot of work to be done still, and something tells me that this is less the first step and more the bare minimum.

 

[deleted480308]

Specifically, the students are angry that their dean of students was fired; they’re angry that he was fired for exposing the racism of LMU’s board of trustees; and they’re angry that he was fired for supporting their right to protest peacefully; they’re angry that the university and their leadership didn’t have the guts to even tell them that their dean of students was fired, leaving it to their SGA to break the news over informal group chats and Facebook groups.

More broadly, the university’s upper administration and leadership is racist. Student and faculty member(s) of color experience the consequences of that racism. It’s very likely that none of these will be addressed. The protest yesterday itself and the university’s tacit approval is a baby step in the right direction; but from what I have heard, was a big show on the university’s part that involved discouraging faculty and staff from participating, quietly intimidating students with a show of force from campus police, delaying the protest to defuse tension, and requiring protestors to wear LMU-branded masks (which I’m certain will be used in a publicity stunt with the copious footage their PR apparently collected). There’s a lot of work to be done still, and something tells me that this is less the first step and more the bare minimum.

Requiring lmu branded masks is odd, having cops out (given the damage around the country where protests have turned to riots) is not odd at all

From an HR standpoint, universities don’t actually owe a big announcement to students about staff being fired and legally aren’t supposed to discuss reasons

what specifically has administration/trustees done that is racist? (And you may have a real case here, i’m just missing it so far)

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Specifically, the students are angry that their dean of students was fired; they’re angry that he was fired for exposing the racism of LMU’s board of trustees; and they’re angry that he was fired for supporting their right to protest peacefully; they’re angry that the university and their leadership didn’t have the guts to even tell them that their dean of students was fired, leaving it to their SGA to break the news over informal group chats and Facebook groups.

More broadly, the university’s upper administration and leadership is racist. Student and faculty member(s) of color experience the consequences of that racism. It’s very likely that none of these will be addressed. The protest yesterday itself and the university’s tacit approval is a baby step in the right direction; but from what I have heard, was a big show on the university’s part that involved discouraging faculty and staff from participating, quietly intimidating students with a show of force from campus police, delaying the protest to defuse tension, and requiring protestors to wear LMU-branded masks (which I’m certain will be used in a publicity stunt with the copious footage their PR apparently collected). There’s a lot of work to be done still, and something tells me that this is less the first step and more the bare minimum.

The board, as disgusting, money hungry, and deceitful as they are, I am not sure of any instance of them being racist as of yet. Not saying it does not exist but tossing around the word racist like candy is a good way to lose credibility.

They more than likely did not want college riots, which is understandable, even though They should let people protest if they want. Liberal colleges have been guilty of the same thing (limited more conservative views) so this is not a one way street. Of course its not a sin until those you disagree with perform the action.

I find it funny through all the idiocracy that this school puts its students through they wait until now to throw a fit. As if being ripped off monetarily, having ambiguous grading standards, lack of clear SPC decisions, along with smoke and mirrors in regards to where tuition money goes and rotation site quality is second thought to all this. of course if I remember correctly the SJW type in my class were more worried about looking the part and virtue signaling than actually learning anything useful in medical school. I remember our old (first) class president went to protest trump at a rally by placing a vagina on his/her head and she failed several classes that semester lmao.

 

[BioPlum]

How would you suggest holding people accountable and demanding change? Applicants and future applicants would still rather go to DCOM than not go to medical school, and even with the parent university's racism and corruption leaching into the program it's a better option than going Caribbean. Current students won't speak out too much for fear of getting axed or persecuted for the rest of their time. With this fiasco, student opinion has run the gamut - some of them are actively discouraging classmates from protesting or interviewing with the media because they're afraid it will impact accreditation or reputation when match season comes around.

Honestly, as a Black applicant, if my only two options were a racist school (with no desire to change/no support) and a Caribbean school (SGU/Ross, not one of the lesser known ones), I would choose the Caribbean school in a heartbeat. Other students may be able to get through relatively unscathed, but I need to protect myself. Med school is hard enough on its own.

 

[deleted480308]

Honestly, as a Black applicant, if my only two options were a racist school (with no desire to change/no support) and a Caribbean school (SGU/Ross, not one of the lesser known ones), I would choose the Caribbean school in a heartbeat. Other students may be able to get through relatively unscathed, but I need to protect myself. Med school is hard enough on its own.

I still haven’t seen racism established (it may be soon, but hasn’t been spelled out yet) and you would be making a bad decision to go to the carribean

 

[BioPlum]

I still haven’t seen racism established (it may be soon, but hasn’t been spelled out yet) and you would be making a bad decision to go to the carribean

I haven't done any research on LMU, so I'm not speaking about them necessarily, or calling them a racist school. What I am saying is that I take racism that seriously, and would choose a different route, rather than suffering for four years. I don't expect many to understand that, but it's my position

 

[deleted480308]

I haven't done any research on LMU, so I'm not speaking about them necessarily, or calling them a racist school. What I am saying is that I take racism that seriously, and would choose a different route, rather than suffering for four years. I don't expect many to understand that, but it's my position

I’m not arguing that you go somewhere racist, but I am saying go carribean would still be a bad choice

 

[Osminog]

I think LMU-DCOM is academically trash given its weak board performance and match outcomes, and I would only recommend it as a last-resort DO school for that reason. But this thread is full of unsubstantiated claims and hollow accusations. If LMU-DCOM students want to get themselves riled up over gossip and anecdotes, that’s fine—but until written evidence and news reports come out, keep it off of SDN. My school has all sorts of not-so-flattering hearsay that spreads internally about administration and faculty, but I don’t go on the internet and present these rumors as facts in order to slander my own institution.

 

[Mad Jack]

While I value free speech on college campuses, I can also understand why a university called Lincoln Memorial University, with a Lincoln statue and Lincoln museum and library, would be concerned about divisive, outrage-inducing racial protests happening on its campus. Like most white American historical figures, Honest Abe isn’t getting good press nowadays. LMU, a small university with a relatively modest endowment, would struggle to handle vandalism and defacement of its property, on top of all the inconveniences that have already been created by the coronavirus situation.

Your posts continue to read like a collection of the worst takes. If anything, this makes them more likely to be a target of major protests

 

[BioPlum]

Oh please, those of minority status suffer no more or no less than their white classmates in medical school. If anything minority status is a plus when applying to competitive residencies. They want to meet their "quota for diversity"

Lol I never said that. I did, however, say that I don't expect many to understand my point of view, which you obviously don't. But, I'm done here. Do carry on

 

[Osminog]

Your posts continue to read like a collection of the worst takes. If anything, this makes them more likely to be a target of major protests

I didn’t know I had the honor of having the “worst takes.” I was under the impression that my takes were maybe the third or fourth worst. But the worst? Wow. Thanks for letting me know. When can I expect my trophy to arrive in the mail?

Most of the people in the school’s county are white conservatives who wouldn’t be caught dead at a BLM protest, and Nashville liberals aren’t going to drive four hours just to protest at an unknown, irrelevant osteopathic medical school. There aren’t ever going to be any “major protests” on the LMU campus in favor of the BLM agenda that don’t primarily involve LMU students, and I don’t think any LMU students are so committed to their virtue-signaling that they would protest when the administration explicitly said not to.

 

[NontradCA]

Oh please, those of minority status suffer no more or no less than their white classmates in medical school. If anything minority status is a plus when applying to competitive residencies. They want to meet their "quota for diversity"

This is just simply untrue. I have experienced racism in medical school. And like I said, I called it out and my school changed. You sound very ignorant, which is exactly the issue. DO schools are more likely to have institutional racism than MDs given the lack of diversity in them and their faculty.

 

[NontradCA]

Honestly, as a Black applicant, if my only two options were a racist school (with no desire to change/no support) and a Caribbean school (SGU/Ross, not one of the lesser known ones), I would choose the Caribbean school in a heartbeat. Other students may be able to get through relatively unscathed, but I need to protect myself. Med school is hard enough on its own.

You’re going to experience racism everywhere. In fact you could argue that Caribbean schools are more “racist” and are responsible for a level of exploitation of minorities that makes silly things in US medical schools look like HBCUs.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

You’re going to experience racism everywhere. In fact you could argue that Caribbean schools are more a reflection of racism and exploitation of minorities that makes silly things in US medical schools look like HBCUs.

Admission stats do MD/DO schools and residency placement when adjusted for board scores and such disagree with your proposition. There are many instances in life where being a minority hurts, but medical school is not one of them. Not to mention all the minority only scholarships. Most faculty at medical schools lean more liberal than conservative, even rural ones.

 

[NontradCA]

Admission stats and residency placement when adjusted for board scores and such disagree with your proposition. There are many instances in life where being a minority hurts, but medical school is not one of them. Not to mention all the minority only scholarships.

Yea there’s no point even engaging you. I literally said I experienced racism in medical school.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

You’re going to experience racism everywhere. In fact you could argue that Caribbean schools are more “racist” and are responsible for a level of exploitation of minorities that makes silly things in US medical schools look like HBCUs.

Carib schools are a reflection of exploiting those who could not get into american medical schools. Not just minorities. TBH it is harder to get loans for carib schools so more often than not its those from wealthy families that go carib.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Yea there’s no point even engaging you. I literally said I experienced racism in medical school.

You may have but that does not prove the claim of medical schools having institutional racism when the data shows otherwise. Sorry if you do not like the facts.

 

[NontradCA]

You may have but that does not prove the claim of medical schools having institutional racism when the data shows otherwise. Sorry if you do not like the facts.

So the people who actually accredit the schools, their donors and the admissions facility actually think that way. Those are facts that matter and I don’t have to prove **** given that. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant. But keep thinking your opinion matters.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

So the people who actually accredit the schools, their donors and the admissions facility actually think that way. Those are facts that matter and I don’t have to prove **** given that. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant. But keep thinking your opinion matters.

i don't even know what this post means but to redirect the thread, the ball is in the court of those claiming "racism" at any medical school. I know it is 2020 but the popular proposition that "everything is racist till proven otherwise" is a fallacy

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh please, those of minority status suffer no more or no less than their white classmates in medical school. If anything minority status is a plus when applying to competitive residencies. They want to meet their "quota for diversity"

You have no idea what you're talking about, bless your heart. I'm so white I make bleach look goth but I've seen the offhand and ignorant comments that some people will make not realizing that they are mildly to highly offensive, often toward black patients in front of black medical students/residents/attendings. Medicine has a long history of not really being the best to people of color and black and Hispanic people in particular. Representation helps bring people to the institution that can help us understand issues that would otherwise be invisible to us, and protests can help address the disparities not just in our criminal justice system, but in our medical system as well.

 

[NontradCA]

i don't even know what this post means but to redirect the thread, the ball is in the court of those claiming "racism" at any medical school. I know it is 2020 but the popular proposition that "everything is racist till proven otherwise" is a fallacy

You can’t read? It is widely established in the medical community that systematic racism exists at all levels of education. The accrediting bodies of medical schools both at national and local levels agree. To say that they have to prove it to you, some random Medical Student is a fallacy.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

You have no idea what you're talking about, bless your heart. I'm so white I make bleach look goth but I've seen the offhand and ignorant comments that some people will make not realizing that they are mildly to highly offensive, often toward black patients in front of black medical students/residents/attendings. Medicine has a long history of not really being the best to people of color and black and Hispanic people in particular. Representation helps bring people to the institution that can help us understand issues that would otherwise be invisible to us, and protests can help address the disparities not just in our criminal justice system, but in our medical system as well.

Minority status is still a plus when applying to residency and medical school. There is actual data on that that is not invisible.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

You can’t read? It is widely established in the medical community that systematic racism exists at all levels of education. The accrediting bodies of medical schools both at national and local levels agree. To say that they have to prove it to you, some random Medical Student is a fallacy.

got data? I have AAMC charts, what do you have? No-one is doubting that minorities experience racism, but this systemic racism in med school is not in line with data from admission stats, residency placement stats, and student success. If anything the asian population experiences systemic racism in regards to medical school. They have to have the best stats, numbers, activities, and still struggle to get accepted. This is well documented in the literature. I honestly feed bad for them, they are punished for being TOO successful.

The ball is in the court of those claiming racism against LMU DCOM. I agree that the school sucks but no-one has proven the racism feat as of yet. One has to prove guilt toward institutions too.

 

[deleted480308]

This is just simply untrue. I have experienced racism in medical school. And like I said, I called it out and my school changed. You sound very ignorant, which is exactly the issue. DO schools are more likely to have institutional racism than MDs given the lack of diversity in them and their faculty.

I’m interested in a citation here, I have a number of criticisms about DO education but “definitely more racist than MDs” is a brand new accusation

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

I’m interested in a citation here, I have a number of criticisms about DO education but “definitely more racist than MDs” is a brand new accusation

I am brown and ever experienced racism in medical school, therefore, according to the above posters, it must not exist. !

 

[NontradCA]

I’m interested in a citation here, I have a number of criticisms about DO education but “definitely more racist than MDs” is a brand new accusation

So general advice among black applicants is to go to an MD school over DO school. I mean you put “definitely more racist than MDs” in quotes like I said that but I didn’t. Do you want to engage in a serious conversation or?

 

[NontradCA]

I am brown and ever experienced racism in medical school, therefore, according to the above posters, it must not exist. !

You’re incredibly dense and use strawman arguments, which just makes me think you’re a troll. There is nothing to “prove” here. You can cite statistics and have a problem with admission stats and the way they do things. That’s your opinion and your right to whine.

But the fact is that the organizations actually making diversity policy cite systemic racism. Whether you think that’s right or wrong is irrelevant. I don’t think you’re grasping that concept. I can’t really help you there.

 

[deleted480308]

So general advice among black applicants is to go to an MD school over DO school. I mean you put “definitely more racist than MDs” in quotes like I said that but I didn’t. Do you want to engage in a serious conversation or?

You said “more likely to have institutional racism”. Do you have a citation for that? It’s a literal question

I would also recommend black applicants go MD over DO, but I would recommend anyone do that due to residency options...not racism. When you add racial preference given to black applicant, going MD is easier than everyone else when controlled for gpa/mcat

 

[NontradCA]

You said “more likely to have institutional racism”. Do you have a citation for that? It’s a literal question

I would also recommend black applicants go MD over DO, but I would recommend anyone do that due to residency options...not racism. When you add racial preference given to black applicant, going MD is easier than everyone else when controlled for gpa/mcat

So that’s not a fact, it’s using conventional wisdom. It’s well established that system racism in education exists. That’s a fact. Using common sense and just general consensus among the medical community, history, people are going to experience less racism when going to a more diverse school.

 

[Xaos]

Requiring lmu branded masks is odd, having cops out (given the damage around the country where protests have turned to riots) is not odd at all

From an HR standpoint, universities don’t actually owe a big announcement to students about staff being fired and legally aren’t supposed to discuss reasons

what specifically has administration/trustees done that is racist? (And you may have a real case here, i’m just missing it so far)

Having cops present is not what I referred to. And I realize that the university isn’t obligated to discuss the circumstances of an employee’s leaving with students. However, firing them for standing for students’ rights to protest peacefully is something that shouldn’t have happened. And, when the employee is one that students regularly are instructed to contact (ie; if they are ill, if they are unable to attend a mandatory activity, if they have technical difficulties during an exam), they do have an obligation to inform the student body - at the very least - that these responsibilities are being transferred to another employee. They’ve failed in that obligation.

Again, because no students are willing to step forward, specific racist actions amount to little more than here-say. But specific faculty have made racist comments during lectures, and to students of color in private. Race has played a role in research and leadership positions offered by the school. So-called microaggressions are abundant among faculty and some of student services. Admissions has been criticized by upper admin/board for admitting too many non-white students (I’m paraphrasing the verbiage used).

The board, as disgusting, money hungry, and deceitful as they are, I am not sure of any instance of them being racist as of yet. Not saying it does not exist but tossing around the word racist like candy is a good way to lose credibility.

They more than likely did not want college riots, which is understandable, even though They should let people protest if they want. Liberal colleges have been guilty of the same thing (limited more conservative views) so this is not a one way street. Of course its not a sin until those you disagree with perform the action.

I find it funny through all the idiocracy that this school puts its students through they wait until now to throw a fit. As if being ripped off monetarily, having ambiguous grading standards, lack of clear SPC decisions, along with smoke and mirrors in regards to where tuition money goes and rotation site quality is second thought to all this. of course if I remember correctly the SJW type in my class were more worried about looking the part and virtue signaling than actually learning anything useful in medical school. I remember our old (first) class president went to protest trump at a rally by placing a vagina on his/her head and she failed several classes that semester lmao.

We get that you hate LMU. Valid opinion But the post isn’t about that.

I think LMU-DCOM is academically trash given its weak board performance and match outcomes, and I would only recommend it as a last-resort DO school for that reason. But this thread is full of unsubstantiated claims and hollow accusations. If LMU-DCOM students want to get themselves riled up over gossip and anecdotes, that’s fine—but until written evidence and news reports come out, keep it off of SDN. My school has all sorts of not-so-flattering hearsay that spreads internally about administration and faculty, but I don’t go on the internet and present these rumors as facts in order to slander my own institution.

Leading back again to the problem: students won’t risk botching their chances at completing medical school for it, and the media doesn’t really care.

 

[Osminog]

got data? I have AAMC charts, what do you have? No-one is doubting that minorities experience racism, but this systemic racism in med school is not in line with data from admission stats, residency placement stats, and student success. If anything the asian population experiences systemic racism in regards to medical school. They have to have the best stats, numbers, activities, and still struggle to get accepted. This is well documented in the literature. I honestly feed bad for them, they are punished for being TOO successful.

The ball is in the court of those claiming racism against LMU DCOM. I agree that the school sucks but no-one has proven the racism feat as of yet. One has to prove guilt toward institutions too.

The topic of "systemic racism" is extremely emotionally charged. If you're looking to have a factual discussion on this issue, you're not going to be able to have it here. A lot of people have heavily emotionally invested in this worldview and have tied their personal identities to the cause, so they're going to become extremely defensive when you start asking questions. If you keep challenging the status quo, you're just going to be flooded with "dislike" emoji reactions and accusations of racism.

If you don't believe me, look at NontradCA's post above. When asked for concrete evidence, he just repeats in different ways that systemic racism in education is an indisputable fact that everybody knows is true. This phenomenon, in my opinion, is in some ways comparable to religious belief. I think topics relating to race, much like topics relating to religion, touch people at a primitive level and evoke strong feelings relating to tribal identity and community. It can be challenging to come up with fact-based rationalizations for what really amount to emotional impulses.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

So that’s not a fact, it’s using conventional wisdom. It’s well established that system racism in education exists. That’s a fact. Using common sense and just general consensus among the medical community, history, people are going to experience less racism when going to a more diverse school.

"Common sense" and "conventional wisdom" are not replacement for cold, hard, data.

You’re incredibly dense and use strawman arguments, which just makes me think you’re a troll. There is nothing to “prove” here. You can cite statistics and have a problem with admission stats and the way they do things. That’s your opinion and your right to whine.
But the fact is that the organizations actually making diversity policy cite systemic racism. Whether you think that’s right or wrong is irrelevant. I don’t think you’re grasping that concept. I can’t really help you there.

I don't personally have a problem with it, since I am not asian, and made it through med school and got the residency I wanted. Just citing the facts.

Organizations making diversity policy will always cite systemic racism, job security you know? The moment they say it does not exist is the moment said organizations cease to have a function.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

The topic of "systemic racism" is extremely emotionally charged. If you're looking to have a factual discussion on this issue, you're not going to be able to have it here. A lot of people have heavily emotionally invested in this worldview and have tied their personal identities to the cause, so they're going to become extremely defensive when you start asking questions. If you keep challenging the status quo, you're just going to be flooded with "dislike" emoji reactions and accusations of racism.

If you don't believe me, look at NontradCA's post above. When asked for concrete evidence, he just repeats in different ways that systemic racism in education is an indisputable fact that everybody knows is true. This phenomenon, in my opinion, is in some ways comparable to religious belief. I think topics relating to race, much like topics relating to religion, touch people at a primitive level and evoke strong feelings relating to tribal identity and community. It can be challenging to come up with fact-based rationalizations for what really amount to emotional impulses.

Pretty much spot on post. likex1000. If facts mattered we would not have biden/trump to choose from. If there is this much statistical non-sense in the medical community just think how non sensical the average joe off the street is. lol ill tap out.

 

[NontradCA]

I think schools are in line with my thinking in that if you don’t think systemic racism is a fact then it’s non-sequitur. There’s some lines you have to draw from which dialog can start. It’s unfortunate that’s where we’re at.

 

[deleted480308]

Having cops present is not what I referred to. And I realize that the university isn’t obligated to discuss the circumstances of an employee’s leaving with students. However, firing them for standing for students’ rights to protest peacefully is something that shouldn’t have happened. And, when the employee is one that students regularly are instructed to contact (ie; if they are ill, if they are unable to attend a mandatory activity, if they have technical difficulties during an exam), they do have an obligation to inform the student body - at the very least - that these responsibilities are being transferred to another employee. They’ve failed in that obligation.

Again, because no students are willing to step forward, specific racist actions amount to little more than here-say. But specific faculty have made racist comments during lectures, and to students of color in private. Race has played a role in research and leadership positions offered by the school. So-called microaggressions are abundant among faculty and some of student services. Admissions has been criticized by upper admin/board for admitting too many non-white students (I’m paraphrasing the verbiage used).




We get that you hate LMU. Valid opinion But the post isn’t about that.



Leading back again to the problem: students won’t risk botching their chances at completing medical school for it, and the media doesn’t really care.

What comments?

 

[deleted480308]

So that’s not a fact, it’s using conventional wisdom. It’s well established that system racism in education exists. That’s a fact. Using common sense and just general consensus among the medical community, history, people are going to experience less racism when going to a more diverse school.

“Systemic racism” is a copout answer. You said DOs were more likely to be racist and haven’t backed that up yet, it’s a really big accusation

 

[NontradCA]

“Systemic racism” is a copout answer. You said DOs were more likely to be racist and haven’t backed that up yet, it’s a really big accusation

Oh well then there’s really nothing else to be said given you’re saying that about my answers. I guess we can just let black applicants decide who’s advice to take more seriously . The white guy who doesn’t believe in system racism or the black guy who’s been through it. The level of arrogance lmao

 

[deleted480308]

Oh well then there’s really nothing else to be said given you’re saying that about my answers. I guess we can just let black applicants decide who’s advice to take more seriously . The white guy who doesn’t believe in system racism or the black guy who’s been through it. The level of arrogance lmao

I believe racism, racist acts and racist people absolutely exist. I think that you not citing specific actions or proof about specific people and just claiming systemic racism without citation is illogical. I don't think any applicant of any color benefits from non-cited inflammatory accusations when their career is at stake. We are all too educated to pretend that makes sense

 

[NontradCA]

I believe racism, racist acts and racist people absolutely exist. I think that you not citing specific actions or proof about specific people and just claiming systemic racism without citation is illogical. I don't think any applicant of any color benefits from non-cited inflammatory accusations when their career is at stake. We are all too educated to pretend that makes sense

So I’ll cite people smarter than me. I’ll leave it to you to further explore this, as your ignorance is actually not my problem and of only detriment to yourself. I think any Black applicant can read your posts and figure it out.
Ending systemic racism in medicine

 

[deleted480308]

So I’ll cite people smarter than me. I’ll leave it to you to further explore this, as your ignorance is actually not my problem and of only detriment to yourself. I think any Black applicant can read your posts and figure it out.
Ending systemic racism in medicine

That’s an editorial mentioning a bunch of horrible things in medicine from the past (tuskeege, HeLa cells) and some more recent problems from areas outside of medicine. Again racism is bad, do you have a citation that DO schools are “more likely to have systemic racism” than MD schools?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The topic of "systemic racism" is extremely emotionally charged. If you're looking to have a factual discussion on this issue, you're not going to be able to have it here. A lot of people have heavily emotionally invested in this worldview and have tied their personal identities to the cause, so they're going to become extremely defensive when you start asking questions. If you keep challenging the status quo, you're just going to be flooded with "dislike" emoji reactions and accusations of racism.

If you don't believe me, look at NontradCA's post above. When asked for concrete evidence, he just repeats in different ways that systemic racism in education is an indisputable fact that everybody knows is true. This phenomenon, in my opinion, is in some ways comparable to religious belief. I think topics relating to race, much like topics relating to religion, touch people at a primitive level and evoke strong feelings relating to tribal identity and community. It can be challenging to come up with fact-based rationalizations for what really amount to emotional impulses.

Actually, I think the problem of systemic racism starts at the very base of society itself and stem from the old ways and laws/rules that still affect us today. Yes it can be emotionally charged and the data are lacking, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe some examples can enlighten you a bit.

Example 1: The old rules that separated black neighborhoods from white ones may not exist today, but that doesn't erase the fact that we still have ghettos today which is where you will find a big portion of the U.S. Black and Hispanic populations, and interestingly enough a majority of people living in those areas are working minimum wage jobs, and the kids in those areas are also most likely to have a poor primary education (if they even attend school at all), be part of gangs and/or grow up without a father. Ok I may not have data for what I'm about to say (or the data may be out there somewhere, just to lazy to research it), but I don't think it's a stretch to say that kids living in those areas aren't likely to go to college either or if they go to college, I don't think it's a stretch to think that they might do worse than other students that didn't grow up in these situations. These issues that starts at the societal level due to the old racist laws culminate all the way at the top meaning more blacks percentage wise in federal prisons and less Black entrepreneurs, CEOs, doctors ect... Why do you think despite all the talks about improving diversity in medical school African Americans still make only ~5% of physicians? Yes, a Black kid with lower GPA and MCAT get to go to medical school over a White Kid with the same stats or slightly higher, but do you really think they do not deserve to be there? Are they really stealing someone else's spot? Now I understand that not all blacks may have grown up in the scenario described above, but still there are data showing that Black doctors are more likely to go serve in those black neighborhoods and that people in those neighborhoods are also more willing to receive medical care from a black doctor. So in the end it does help fixing some disparities in society, although maybe not enough.

Example 2: This one will be shorter, but was I the only one that was shocked that one the things that was cited to defend Ahmaud Arbery's killers was a pre-civil war era (1863) citizen's arrest law that still exists today apparently? The law was literally created to prevent slaves from escaping to North states by giving white citizens legal right to arrest/kidnap them and lock them up in their house for up to 72 hours. That's what systemic racism looks like.

I'm not going to debate anything here though as I do not have time for this. So anyone can feel free to agree or disagree with this post, but this is everything I have to say about the subject, although there are plenty more to be said.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I am brown and ever experienced racism in medical school, therefore, according to the above posters, it must not exist. !

"Common sense" and "conventional wisdom" are not replacement for cold, hard, data.



I don't personally have a problem with it, since I am not asian, and made it through med school and got the residency I wanted. Just citing the facts.

Organizations making diversity policy will always cite systemic racism, job security you know? The moment they say it does not exist is the moment said organizations cease to have a function.

Obviously, you haven't been to rotations at the office of a former AOA president (No, I'm not gonna name the person) in a small town down south in a deep red state. This person's office literally reeks of racist caricatures and have old racist western style movies playing on TV which, with not much surprise, also attracts racist patients.