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It's the kind of story you want to get as a journalist for the NY Post, I'm sure. It kind of writes itself. Any time you can put penis in the title without stretching the story, you're in a good spot.
 
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I don't see USUHS linking to this article....


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Oh come on. This is a part of the performance triad. Eat, sleep, ketamine penis party. Don't pretend like NO one on this thread hasn't been here. Glass houses, people.
 
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I'm wondering when they do this lab during the USUHS curriculum. I was talking to some MS4s this year who were like, "Oh yea, we've done penile blocks, central lines, and IOs on each other." As well as foleys and a bunch of other stuff I thought was a little strange.

But again, ketamine penis party sounds awesome. I think I might suggest we use that for the theme of the urology chief dinner this year.
 
I don't doubt that this guy could be a real sicko. It also wouldn't surprise me if PETA was funding this endeavor.
 
Tired said:
Excellent descriptive given the topic.

It's a little hard to believe the guy has been this pathological for such an extended period of time. It'll be interesting to see how much more of this story comes out.
Click to expand...

excellent point, for all we know this could be just the tip...
 
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"Virginia authorities allege that Hagmann boasted to a student 'about his proficiency with rectal exams' and took the student to a warehouse on his property. There, the report claims, the two 'continued to consume beer' and Hagmann asked the student 'about the effect (the student’s) uncircumcised penis had on masturbation and sexual intercourse.' The student told investigators 'that he was inebriated and felt that he could not refuse Dr. Hagmann’s request  to examine, manipulate and photograph his penis.'

In his statement to Reuters, Hagmann connected his comments on circumcision to his live-tissue trauma training course this way: 'The debate on the value and impact of circumcision is a current medical and social issue. The historical link between circumcision and masturbation is a fact dating since Victorian England and is still a current topic subject to scientific research.'"

:rofl:

I'm sure the board will let him keep his license once they realize this obvious connection he identified between masturbation/circumcision and battlefield trauma.
 
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I can't wait for the mandatory Army powerpoint training class:

"Occasionally, instructors may conduct one-on-one individual training sessions with highly motivated students in personally owned, remotely located warehouses, consuming alcoholic beverages prior to examining, manipulating, and photographing genitalia. These sessions should be approved by the first-line supervisor when practical."

DTMS about to get plussed up!
 
Yup. This guy has bought us another 200 hours of mandatory EO training/year, chock-full of poorly dramatized re-enactments and jarring narrations.

"Has this ever happened to you?" (cue scene of an overweight SFC with a fake mustache playing the evil doctor, trying to convince a young offer played by an even younger PFC to pull out his jimmie)

"Since 2015, the Army has instituted a "no asking about an officer's junk" policy. This was at the direction of the Office of the Surgeon General, the same people who brought you the novel idea of eating, sleeping, and excersizing... Remember, if someone feeds you alcohol and asks you to pull out your D#$K at his farm in the middle of nowhere, its ok to say no."
 
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Look at the guy's mustache. He had to do it...right?
 
j4pac said:
Look at the guy's mustache. He had to do it...right?
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There is a self-fullfilling prophecy at play here. I got $50 that says he owns a van with no windows in the back. Another $10 says he has been known to wear cut-off jean shorts with a long sleeved collared shirt, knee high socks, and tennis shoes.
 
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HighPriest said:
There is a self-fullfilling prophecy at play here. I got $50 that says he owns a van with no windows in the back. Another $10 says he has been known to wear cut-off jean shorts with a long sleeved collared shirt, knee high socks, and tennis shoes.
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Does the mustache cause you to be a pervert, or do perverts happen to wear mustaches? Chicken vs the egg debate.
 
j4pac said:
Does the mustache cause you to be a pervert, or do perverts happen to wear mustaches? Chicken vs the egg debate.
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I think its more that if you are a pervert, your moustache will grow in a certain way. I've known plenty of regular guys with mustaches, but their mustaches don't make me thing that they're going to serve me a chloraform-and-ice-cream sandwich. But it does seem like when perverts have mustaches, they have a certain kind of mustache.

Tom Selleck - mustache, but no creepy vibe.
James Hetfield (sporting the handle bar) - mustache, but did not strike me as a pervert.
Hitler - not a good guy, but probably not a diddler
Stalin - same

But this guy - this guy has a pervostache. Dahmer had a pervostache. Ron Jeremy - total pervostache, but he's not hiding it.
 
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HighPriest said:
There is a self-fullfilling prophecy at play here. I got $50 that says he owns a van with no windows in the back. Another $10 says he has been known to wear cut-off jean shorts with a long sleeved collared shirt, knee high socks, and tennis shoes.
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I can't wait to see the new OTSG EO awareness posters on the wall with this ^^^ mustachioed SGT on the front, staring creepily into the camera with a half-smile that says "I'm ready to support all your (EO) needs."
 
HighPriest said:
I think its more that if you are a pervert, your moustache will grow in a certain way.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting line of thought that deserves further discussion.

I would hypothesize that mustache creepiness is a mostly random phenomenon, but that well-adjusted non-perverts have the insight to look in a mirror and say "whoa I look creepy" and then cut the thing off before too much time has elapsed. Whereas the perverts who happen to grow creepy mustaches just obliviously keep them.

I offer as Exhibit A the mustache growing contest that took place on my last deployment. Wow, a stomach-curdling-ier bunch of Free Candy Van drivers I've never seen. The people with the creepiest scraggliest ones couldn't wait to cut them off, because they knew they looked like child molesters.

Well, except for this one periop nurse. He kept his for a while after the contest ended ... hmmm.
 
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It certainly could be a selection process. So perhaps we should require new officers to grow mustaches at OBC. If they grow in an excellent 'stache, they're safe. If they grow in a creeper, but shave it, they're safe. If they don't....straight to Fort Polk, Leonard Wood, or Riley, where no one gives a $#!T.
 
Tired said:
Um... what? You seriously had students telling you they had performed penile blocks and foleys on each other? Did you at least tell someone higher up about this? Man, I hope this was a joke...
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They made it sound like it was completely voluntary and a school sanctioned thing. They never mentioned ketamine or alcohol being involved. I just thought it was another zany America's Medical School thing like the live pig labs they used to do.
 
Tired said:
The whole thing is just strange. I would guess there's a little drama among the USUHS command over this.
Click to expand...

I wonder if USUHS is going to do the right thing and try to seek out the victims of their program or if they are going to continue to play the "blind eye" card...err..."ignorance is bliss" card...err..."nothing to see here" card.
 
pgg said:
This is an interesting line of thought that deserves further discussion.

I would hypothesize that mustache creepiness is a mostly random phenomenon, but that well-adjusted non-perverts have the insight to look in a mirror and say "whoa I look creepy" and then cut the thing off before too much time has elapsed. Whereas the perverts who happen to grow creepy mustaches just obliviously keep them.

I offer as Exhibit A the mustache growing contest that took place on my last deployment. Wow, a stomach-curdling-ier bunch of Free Candy Van drivers I've never seen. The people with the creepiest scraggliest ones couldn't wait to cut them off, because they knew they looked like child molesters.

Well, except for this one periop nurse. He kept his for a while after the contest ended ... hmmm.
Click to expand...

That is very enlightening, thank you. I always thought that child molester's mustaches grew in like Tim Allen's on Santa Clause. You learn something new every day.
 
The more I read about this the more pissed off I get. We (the collective we) allowed our medical students to be sexually assaulted. They are a vulnerable population and we failed to correctly protect them. Experimental animal models have to go through an IACUC, do we treat our animals better than our people??

This is unacceptable if the charges are true.
 
Tired said:
Can you clarify who attended these courses from USUHS? All students? How long has USUHS been sending people there?
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Unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know. From the reports it looks like 2012/2013 timeframe, but I don't know exactly which classes would have been involved. For the courses at his facilities it was likely a handful of students doing an elective, but it looked like at least one course was held at USUHS which would suggest potentially a wider group of people participating.
 
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I did not attend USUHS, but I have been told by those that did that the course was an elective. Not everyone participated. The charges laid by Virginia occurred in the 2012-13 timeframe, but the course had been occurring before that time as well.
 
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I agree, though. I joke about the situation, but the truth is that this is appalingly unacceptable. The fact that this isn't bigger news is unacceptable. This is the type of thing that needs to make waves, so that it doesn't get brushed under the rug.
The administration states that they were unaware that this was occurring. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they probably didn't know this guy was getting students hammered and probing their bums, but the course was on the cirriculum, students undoubtedly talked about some of the things they were doing - like catheterizing each other, taking ketamine, you know: things that stand out like a turd in your cereal. Yet nothing happened until VA State suspended his license. That's negligence on the part of the University administration, no matter how you cut it. Expecting the students to self-monitor and ensure that their staff isn't taking advantage of them is not a policy. I understand that they're all highly educated adults, but guess what: they're in a vulnerable position because who is going to tell one of their med school professors to F^&% off? Especially in the military.

I'm upset that it happened. I'm even more angry that this is a small footnote in the news behind Kim Kardashian's new pregnancy and Christopher Lee's death (RIP, man...although I can't figure out why CNN says he was a "Star Wars" actor...why would you pick that role out of everything else he's done?...sorry, focus...)
 
The WaPo article stated that it was USUHS who reported him to the state board. He's a contractor, short of firing him and reporting him, what more could they do? The medical board documents refer to a military investigation. Someone should FOIA that document.
 
My point is that they could have looked into it earlier. My understanding from some of the people I know who've attended USUHS is that many of these activities were known to occur before the allegations in 2012/13. Most of the USUHS grads I know were out of USUHS well before the 2012/13 years, and yet they knew all about this course and what happened there (to an extent, of course) If it was common knowledge amongst the students, then it was known to the faculty as well, and nothing was done. If they started a military investigation before that, they should have put the course on hold until the investigation was complete. Perhaps they did, I can't say for sure, but my sources tell me that this course is old news.

I don't expect USUHS to have any control over the media coverage, of course. That's a different issue.
 
USUHS probably went to the VA Board of Medicine because they couldn't go to the county district attorney since nothing criminal, or nothing criminal that a prosecutor could use, took place. The participants were volunteers and adults, and while the entire pattern of behavior of the instructor is creepy, unprofessional and laden with apparent prurient motivations (penile nerve blocks while under both alcohol and ketamine, helluva way to lose a weekend) it isn't exactly clear what crime occurred, unlike with the Bill Cosby scandal. The board is planning action, but in one story, they have enlisted a couple of state prosecutors to assist them in building their case, which suggests even a board action might be difficult. These were training sessions, not patient care, and the participants were volunteers, not unsuspecting patients, and it isn't clear that anyone tried to refuse the activities but was pressured or otherwise deceived into participation. (Which makes the backdrop of creepiness, manipulation and planning an order of magnitude greater on the logarithmic creep-o-meter scale).

I suspect the contract won't be renewed (lol). The better course of action might be on the breach of contract route, that the course did not perform its stated purpose and that it existed as a fraudulent cover for predatory sexual gratification of a homoerotic-fetishistic-paraphilia kind. I can see why USUHS wants to shove that across the river to Virginia.
 
orbitsurgMD said:
USUHS probably went to the VA Board of Medicine because they couldn't go to the county district attorney since nothing criminal, or nothing criminal that a prosecutor could use, took place. The participants were volunteers and adults, and while the entire pattern of behavior of the instructor is creepy, unprofessional and laden with apparent prurient motivations (penile nerve blocks while under both alcohol and ketamine, helluva way to lose a weekend) it isn't exactly clear what crime occurred, unlike with the Bill Cosby scandal. The board is planning action, but in one story, they have enlisted a couple of state prosecutors to assist them in building their case, which suggests even a board action might be difficult. These were training sessions, not patient care, and the participants were volunteers, not unsuspecting patients, and it isn't clear that anyone tried to refuse the activities but was pressured or otherwise deceived into participation. (Which makes the backdrop of creepiness, manipulation and planning an order of magnitude greater on the logarithmic creep-o-meter scale).

I suspect the contract won't be renewed (lol). The better course of action might be on the breach of contract route, that the course did not perform its stated purpose and that it existed as a fraudulent cover for predatory sexual gratification of a homoerotic-fetishistic-paraphilia kind. I can see why USUHS wants to shove that across the river to Virginia.
Click to expand...


Usuhs cut ties with him 2 years ago. Im surprised that it took this long for this story to break.

When I was offered this course at Usuhs, circa 2010, people raved about it. I think he had something like 60 students in the summer class. The worst I heard him doing was dehydrating students, with something analogous to a bowel prep. Students also placed peripheral lines in each other, maybe an IO, no mention of foleys.

I declined to take the course (out of laziness, wanted an easier summer). Had I known that I could've gotten my junk fondled, I would've signed up hand over fist!
 
I think you can make a good argument for a criminal act here. Obviously you would need witness testimonial, but according to the virginia document, some of the students refused interventions until they were administered ketamine, and then asked again. Clearly, that is an issue. They are certainly being taken advantage of, as regardless of how adult or how educated they are, they have a superior (instructor) pressuring them into doing things. As I read the accusations, the pressure was clearly there, or at least some of the students that came forward felt that way. That specifically may not be a crime, but it speaks to the fact that they were certainly in a vulnerable position where they might feel pressured to make decisions that they would otherwise not make.

I don't know what they call it in Virginia, but when someone refuses something until you provide drugs and/or alcohol, and then you do it anyway you are breaking the law in -most- states. I think they call it assault. Or rape. Kind of depends upon what it is you do. It is no different from a surgeon performing a procedure in the OR that the patient specifically asked them not to do.

Finally, there's the fact that he fed a student alcohol, and then video-taped himself performing a rectal examination stating that it was for educational purposes, and no one knows what happened to that tape. That could go either way. The student agreed to both the exam and the taping, although it certainly has the date rape vibe when you read his statement. But if this guy used the tape for anything other than educational purposes, there may be a HIPAA issue present.

I don't, of course, expect USUHS to perform a criminal investigation. They have done their part in that by turning him over to the board and making the situation public. If the students want to press charges, that is up to them.

I completely understand why USUHS would want to wash their hands of this. I don't like dealing with problems either. But when a problem occurs under your own roof, it is your responsibility. They did the right thing and turned the guy over to the medical board. My follow up question is: who else knew this sort of thing was happening, what was actually sanctioned by the University and what wasn't, and was there a discrepency that the administration knew about but did not act upon until they heard he might be diddling? If that investigation isn't occurring, then it's being brushed under a rug.
 
DrMetal said:
Usuhs cut ties with him 2 years ago. Im surprised that it took this long for this story to break.

When I was offered this course at Usuhs, circa 2010, people raved about it. I think he had something like 60 students in the summer class. The worst I heard him doing was dehydrating students, with something analogous to a bowel prep. Students also placed peripheral lines in each other, maybe an IO, no mention of foleys.

I declined to take the course (out of laziness, wanted an easier summer). Had I known that I could've gotten my junk fondled, I would've signed up hand over fist!
Click to expand...

If you did well you might have been able to perform a rectal exam on Hagmann as a bonus. Apparently he was offering them out. He seems like the kind of guy where if you just called him today, he'd still let you put a catheter in his junk.
 
HighPriest said:
I think you can make a good argument for a criminal act here. Obviously you would need witness testimonial, but according to the virginia document, some of the students refused interventions until they were administered ketamine, and then asked again. Clearly, that is an issue. They are certainly being taken advantage of, as regardless of how adult or how educated they are, they have a superior (instructor) pressuring them into doing things. As I read the accusations, the pressure was clearly there, or at least some of the students that came forward felt that way. That specifically may not be a crime, but it speaks to the fact that they were certainly in a vulnerable position where they might feel pressured to make decisions that they would otherwise not make.

I don't know what they call it in Virginia, but when someone refuses something until you provide drugs and/or alcohol, and then you do it anyway you are breaking the law in -most- states. I think they call it assault. Or rape. Kind of depends upon what it is you do. It is no different from a surgeon performing a procedure in the OR that the patient specifically asked them not to do.

Finally, there's the fact that he fed a student alcohol, and then video-taped himself performing a rectal examination stating that it was for educational purposes, and no one knows what happened to that tape. That could go either way. The student agreed to both the exam and the taping, although it certainly has the date rape vibe when you read his statement. But if this guy used the tape for anything other than educational purposes, there may be a HIPAA issue present.

I don't, of course, expect USUHS to perform a criminal investigation. They have done their part in that by turning him over to the board and making the situation public. If the students want to press charges, that is up to them.

I completely understand why USUHS would want to wash their hands of this. I don't like dealing with problems either. But when a problem occurs under your own roof, it is your responsibility. They did the right thing and turned the guy over to the medical board. My follow up question is: who else knew this sort of thing was happening, what was actually sanctioned by the University and what wasn't, and was there a discrepency that the administration knew about but did not act upon until they heard he might be diddling? If that investigation isn't occurring, then it's being brushed under a rug.
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I agree...especially with the end. I truly hope that USUHS is dong their own internal investigation, and most importantly, trying to identify and help those who could have been victimized.
 
HighPriest said:
I understand that they're all highly educated adults, but guess what: they're in a vulnerable position because who is going to tell one of their med school professors to F^&% off? Especially in the military.
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It's interesting to me that a strong desire to succeed, to "do whatever it takes," and not rock the boat contributes to vulnerability in this demographic.

There are multiple means for students/residents to file complaints, particularly in the military (ACGME, EO, IG). These students were likely part of a subset who regarded speaking out as an act of disloyalty and utilizing formal means of complaining as damaging to their reputation. This is the behavior you see in elite organizations that get called out for crazy rites of passage that cross the line into hazing.

"We're totally badass, **** yeah i'll drink a beer and let you IO my sternum, then let you suture me because i'm freakin motivated to succeed in military medicine." Those FAST1's are like something out of a horror movie.

It's this crazy drive to succeed at all costs and to one-up one another that contributes to their becoming vulnerable to predatory leaders who understand this dynamic among smart, ambitious trainees.
 
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Member 1337 said:
It's interesting to me that a strong desire to succeed, to "do whatever it takes," and not rock the boat contributes to vulnerability in this demographic.

There are multiple means for students/residents to file complaints, particularly in the military (ACGME, EO, IG). These students
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To their credit, it was a few Usuhs students who formally complained, leading the school to cutting its ties with him and reporting him.

Member 1337 said:
"We're totally badass, **** yeah i'll drink a beer and let you IO my sternum, then let you suture me because i'm freakin motivated to succeed in military medicine." Those FAST1's are like something out of a horror movie.
.
Click to expand...

This is totally what happened. All the "jocks" in my class gravitated towards him and his course, especially those with no prior service, who were still in the pre-med-Im-gonna-be-a-badass-field-doc mentality. Those us who were a little older and with some prior service could smell the bullsht; the chances of me ever having to do an IO are very slim, unless I go into trauma/or CC, and I'll learn that later.

This story also speaks (in a disturbing way) to the extents that we'll go, to 'simulate' situations for the sake of learning. Do you really have learn how to place a foley, by doing it on your drunk friend?! Alternatively, you could learn by following an ICU nurse around, and placing them on real patients who have real indications! Whatever happened to the good ol' days of practicing on real patients?!
 
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j4pac said:
I wonder if USUHS is going to do the right thing and try to seek out the victims of their program or if they are going to continue to play the "blind eye" card...err..."ignorance is bliss" card...err..."nothing to see here" card.
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I would be very surprised (and very interested to know) if they are doing the right thing by seeking out victims to provide support. There have been abuses before and "blind eye" would actually be an improvement over what's been done in the past.
 
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