Lot's of Questions on LORs

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[NeuResurgens]

Hi all, with crunch time coming up I have been scrambling to get all of my LORs together over the past few months and have a solid list of individuals who will write them for me, but I have a few questions about a few fine details about them:

1: Is there a such thing as "too many" letters? My letter count is as follows; 1 from my supervisor at my job as a medical scribe. 1 DO so far, possibly 2. 1 MD, possibly 2 or 3. 1 non-science professor who has been my research supervisor for the past 4 years. 3, possibly 4 science professors. (1 is very bad at returning emails and I feel guilty stopping by his office unannounced). I know the technical requirement is generally 1-2 science, 1 non-science, 1 supervisor in a clinical setting, a physician letter, and possibly a volunteer coordinator.

1a: Along those lines, would it hurt me to not have one from a volunteer coordinator? I have 6 months of ER volunteering but had to quit because of time issues. It wasn't very substantial notice before I had to quit so the volunteer coordinator was not exactly happy with me about it.

2: Would it be detrimental to include a letter from a manager at a non-clinical job? My pre-med adviser has mixed feelings about this, as he believes that it may not do much in terms of arguing why I would be a good physician.

3: Has anybody heard of a letter writer addressing a second letter to a specific school? Some of the docs I work with have graduated from schools that are included in my school list. Would it help, hurt, or be neutral to ask them to address a second letter directly to the school?

4: Seniority; how much would it hurt the influence of my letters if some are from a relatively new physician as opposed to a physician who has been practicing for 10-20+ years? Would a letter from the department medical director hold more influence than a department employee, even if the director has not been in practice for as long?

5: Any advice or links that can assist with writing my own letter? My supervisor as well as one of the higher-up physicians writing my letters have asked for me to write my own letters and submit them for editing, because my supervisor is leaving for PA school and the physician is busy with administrative duties.

All input is appreciated, thanks!

1. Yes, there is such a thing. Medical schools won't read a million letters, just the ones they asked for. However, the AAMC Application Service allows you to pick which letters get sent where, so you don't have to send them all to all the schools (for example, don't send the DO letters to MD schools, and vice versa.) Try to focus on what most schools require and don't go too far beyond that unless you think one of your letters is particularly strong outside of the requisite letters.

1a. Most schools don't require volunteer coordinator letters.

2. This letter could help you if: 1. this manager could write a VERY enthusiastic letter on your behalf and 2. it is the only other letter outside of the one the schools already ask for.

3. This would depend on how much influence those people have, and it might just suffice to use the letter from them as a normal LOR.

4. Doesn't matter so much. The Department Director would probably be a bit more meaningful.

5. You can write your own LOR? I've never heard of this, so someone else will have to chime in here.

That's my somewhat uninformed take on it, Hopefully others will have other feedback/correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Glandzburg]

Hi all, with crunch time coming up I have been scrambling to get all of my LORs together over the past few months and have a solid list of individuals who will write them for me, but I have a few questions about a few fine details about them:

1: Is there a such thing as "too many" letters? My letter count is as follows; 1 from my supervisor at my job as a medical scribe. 1 DO so far, possibly 2. 1 MD, possibly 2 or 3. 1 non-science professor who has been my research supervisor for the past 4 years. 3, possibly 4 science professors. (1 is very bad at returning emails and I feel guilty stopping by his office unannounced). I know the technical requirement is generally 1-2 science, 1 non-science, 1 supervisor in a clinical setting, a physician letter, and possibly a volunteer coordinator.

You can submit up to ten letters (IIRC?) to AMCAS, and you can choose which letters go to which schools. Keep in mind that many schools have a maximum number of letters they will read.

1a: Along those lines, would it hurt me to not have one from a volunteer coordinator? I have 6 months of ER volunteering but had to quit because of time issues. It wasn't very substantial notice before I had to quit so the volunteer coordinator was not exactly happy with me about it.

No.

2: Would it be detrimental to include a letter from a manager at a non-clinical job? My pre-med adviser has mixed feelings about this, as he believes that it may not do much in terms of arguing why I would be a good physician.

No, it may actually help you if your manager can write a strong letter. I used a letter from a manager at my non-clinical job.

3: Has anybody heard of a letter writer addressing a second letter to a specific school? Some of the docs I work with have graduated from schools that are included in my school list. Would it help, hurt, or be neutral to ask them to address a second letter directly to the school?

You technically could do this if you are willing to use up one of your ten LOR slots on AMCAS, but I doubt it would help you.

4: Seniority; how much would it hurt the influence of my letters if some are from a relatively new physician as opposed to a physician who has been practicing for 10-20+ years? Would a letter from the department medical director hold more influence than a department employee, even if the director has not been in practice for as long?

You don't need a physician letter except at certain DO schools. In fact, physician letters are generally discouraged unless you have actually worked (read: not just shadowed) with the physician for a substantial period of time. DO NOT INCLUDE A LETTER FROM A PHYSICIAN THAT YOU HAVE ONLY SHADOWED!!!

5: Any advice or links that can assist with writing my own letter? My supervisor as well as one of the higher-up physicians writing my letters have asked for me to write my own letters and submit them for editing, because my supervisor is leaving for PA school and the physician is busy with administrative duties.

You might be able to find something by using the search function.

 

[Glandzburg]

Thanks for the responses. I knew about the letter limit, but did not know I can pick and choose which letters go to which schools. Also are you sure that a DO letter would hurt at an MD school and the MD letter would hurt at DO schools? I figured that as they are concerned a physician letter is a physician letter. And chill out my friend, if you read the original post you'll see the letters are from physicians that I work with regularly in the ER, not some doc that I shadowed for a day and never spoke to again.

If you have worked closely with the physicians for an extended period of time, that is another story. I was not positive after initially reading your post, so I simply emphasized my point about shadowing to get the point across to anybody else that may be reading this post. The idea that physician letters are a requirement for most schools is one that has been perpetuated by uninformed pre-med advisors and needs to be dispelled. As seen in your post: "I know the technical requirement is generally 1-2 science, 1 non-science, 1 supervisor in a clinical setting, a physician letter, and possibly a volunteer coordinator."

Unless you are talking specifically about a number of DO schools, they are not technical requirements.

 

[NickNaylor]

Why would you get 4 letters from physicians? Did you do anything with them besides shadow or otherwise do "clinical" work? If the answer is no, I would drop most or all of them. Those letters really aren't helpful. If you worked with them in another setting (e.g., research, academic setting, etc.) then that's another matter. But letters from people that watched you shadow aren't helpful - especially if you're going to be sending in a bajillion letters as it is. Do not send in 10 letters. No one will read all of them, and it's unlikely that 5 more letters are going to say anything that wasn't already in the first 5 letters. I say this as someone that has looked at quite a few apps this past year on the admissions committee. Generally, 3-5 is the sweet spot. Any more than that and the individual letters begin to lose value - they stop providing new, useful information. I was no more impressed by the person that sent in 7 letters than the person that sent in 3-4 great letters.

Also, I would recommend against sending 4 letters from science professors unless you actually did different things with them. If they're all from professors you only took classes with, 1 or maybe 2 letters will be sufficient. Again, another 2-3 letters are unlikely to reveal information that wasn't included in the first 1-2 letters.

 

[eternelle]

If you were reading thousands of applications, how would you feel when you stumbled upon an app with 7 LORs? Personally, I would take your app and put it at the bottom of the pile. Most people only do around 4. Get LORs from the people who are going to strongly recommend you. Mediocre LORs aren't going to add much to your app.

 

[eternelle]

Are they vouching for you or are you vouching for yourself in some of the letters? I don't think that LORs carry quite as much weight as you think for that exact reason. It's not uncommon for volunteer coordinators, etc. to have people write their own letters.

Honestly, by the third or fourth letter, people will just be saying things that are redundant. I would pick letter writers who have seen you in different areas. Maybe cut down the physician letters to one DO letter and take off the science letter you think will be generic. Immersing yourself in a new culture is great, but it sounds like this letter will mostly be fluff.

Also, you can send different letters to different schools, but just remember that writing a recommendation is a total pain, so don't waste anybody's time unless you truly think they can get you into a particular school.

 

[Gsb653]

I only had 3 LORs and that seemed to suit me just fine. All three of them were from science faculty members. Granted, most of the schools that I applied to were in Texas (so TMDSAS) but I did apply elsewhere through AMCAS and things were fine. I think you also need to pay attention to what the school wants. I think some schools prefer different mixes of LORs.

I did however, have an interviewer specifically tell me that in his eyes, letters held very high priority and he was usually most impressed with letters that seemed to be written by people that knew the applicant very well. He said that essays were great, but the things other people had to say about the applicant held much more sway in his eyes. In my opinion, the point of letters is far less about who they come from and much more about the content. If the person knows you and has some valid basis of input on whether or not they think you would make a good candidate for medical school, then that should be sufficient. Just some food for thought.

 

[NickNaylor]

AGAIN, the doctors are not physicians I have shadowed. They are two physicians I work with as a scribe, who I chose because they are the two that I have worked with the most, and are always excited to teach me new things at the hospital, gladly taking all of my questions, and providing advice throughout my time here. 1 is a DO and 1 is an MD, and in case you didn't see it again, I work with them, I DIDN'T SHADOW THEM.

As for the professors, it's going to be a total of 4. One is my pre-med adviser who also happened to be my professor for anatomy and physiology and has seen how far I've come since junior year when he first met me. The second is my senior thesis adviser, who also taught me during my first bio and had to meet with me almost daily before I caught on, and who's senior thesis class I killed it in ( aka he saw me at the start and at the finish, pretty good insight as to the progress I've made in the 4 years since he first met me. And my thesis research had to do with improving clinical pharmaceutical research.). Professor #3 is my department head who I've also gone on a study abroad trip with (generic science letter but can also place emphasis on my ability to work well with all kinds of populations; our trip was an ecological/ sociology/ biodiversity geared trip where we spent plenty of days in a pretty poor South American country, and while the rest of the class was busy "learning so much about the culture" while sitting with each other by the pool and in the air conditioning, he would find me playing soccer with the local kids, hunting down the best street food, or learning to salsa with the ladies.). Faculty letter #4 is my research coordinator, a sociology professor I have worked with for 4 years doing research on various Christian congregations.

TL;DR; The theme of my application is how I was a terrible student and have grown to do more than I ever thought possible, and each of these writers has a small piece that they can contribute to this story. Whether it be the generic "he's a great science student" letter, the "he's a great student who I've worked well with and have noticed s much growth" letter, the "He's a reliable employee, consistent, bright, and excels in fields other than science which I know because he worked with me for 4 years" letter, or the "He gets along well with all types of populations which will put him way ahead of the rich med students who won't even look a cashier/ waiter/ janitor in the eyes" letter from the professors, and two "He's a great scribe, always curious and wanting to learn about our patients, has good clinical instinct, and is able to objectively discuss our current issues in medicine" letter from the docs, every letter has a role to play in this process.

And for anyone still confused, I DIDN'T SHADOW THE DOCTORS WRITING MY LETTERS, I WORK WITH THEM.

Then send one physician letter and not two. If you're applying to DO schools, use the DO letter if the school has a policy of requiring a letter from a DO. If you're applying to MD schools, use whichever one you think is stronger. There is zero reason to send both. They both saw you operate in the exact same context. The content of the letters will likely be very, very similar.

For your professor LORs, I would leave out #3 and #4. I don't think they will be all that useful compared to the context of the people writing letters #1 and #2. Getting a LOR from someone strictly because he saw you playing soccer with local kids is ridiculous. No adcom is going to be impressed with that anecdote. I don't see what #4 is going to offer you that #1 and #2 don't already cover apart from a different project.

You seem less interested in hearing advice and more interested in defending your pre-made decision. That's fine. But don't be surprised when people don't "get" what you're saying. In fact, it is you that doesn't seem to be "getting" what we're saying, which is that sending 10 LORs is unnecessary and perhaps even harmful. Again, it is unlikely that 10 letters is going to include much more useful information compared to 4-5 despite what you may think. You then risk people not actually reading your letters carefully (protip: there is zero chance that I would read 10 letters carefully if I were looking at your app), in which case you may not get a strong advantage from any of them.