Making partner for new grads

[Mman]

The whole idea of long partnership tracks is dangling the bait in front of suckers. One doesn't need more than a few months to figure out whether an employee is partner material. One year is more than enough.

Length of partnership track is not related to figuring out if they are partner material. It's more directly related to the value of the partnership and the time they group feels you have to work first to "earn" that value.

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[deleted171991]

Length of partnership track is not related to figuring out if they are partner material. It's more directly related to the value of the partnership and the time they group feels you have to work first to "earn" that value.

The value is purely in the current contract. Meaning that if the group's contract is set to expire in two years, and the partnership track is also two years, the candidate is playing roulette.

 

[Planktonmd]

There is only one thing in common among all partnerships: those who got there before you will always screw you, you only can hope they use a lubricant!

 

[Mman]

The value is purely in the current contract. Meaning that if the group's contract is set to expire in two years, and the partnership track is also two years, the candidate is playing roulette.

sort of, the value is also in the negotiated contract rates and ownership interests in various surgery centers and real estate. The value of the current contract is dependent on the length left as well as the likelihood of renewal.

 

[GravelRider]

Length of partnership track is not related to figuring out if they are partner material. It's more directly related to the value of the partnership and the time they group feels you have to work first to "earn" that value.

The potential "partner" also has value. You are theoretically putting someone on a partnership track who is adding value to your group. This is supposed to be a mutual relationship. I'm not saying you give someone equal share and voice from day 1, but some of these hoops they make potential "partners" jump through is nothing more than hazing or just outright lies.

 

[criticalelement]

The potential "partner" also has value. You are theoretically putting someone on a partnership track who is adding value to your group. This is supposed to be a mutual relationship. I'm not saying you give someone equal share and voice from day 1, but some of these hoops they make potential "partners" jump through is nothing more than hazing or just outright lies.

what did you go to the ASA we speak gobbledygook course?

 

[GravelRider]

what did you go to the ASA we speak gobbledygook course?

Nope...just a sucker who should have bought a bigger tube of lube, and maybe some with lidocaine in it.

 

[Mman]

The potential "partner" also has value. You are theoretically putting someone on a partnership track who is adding value to your group. This is supposed to be a mutual relationship. I'm not saying you give someone equal share and voice from day 1, but some of these hoops they make potential "partners" jump through is nothing more than hazing or just outright lies.

I agree. We personally include partner track docs in all meetings and everything is open and transparent. We've also never had a doc not make partner that was partner track. We go 4 years partner track but essentially zero chance you don't make it and if we were to sell out in the interim, they'd get a cut of that.

 

[bkell101]

I've learned a lot in my 1 year out since residency, and I have made mistakes. You will too. This is my first job (in anesthesia), but certainly not my last. In retrospect, my gut told me something was fishy.

I would say talk to recent hires (if they let you), and find out about turnover. If people are leaving, they are leaving for a reason. That would be the biggest indication to me. I would ask about any hierarchy and call structure. Does everyone take equal call or are the fat cat partners on the golf course by 2 while you finish all the OR cases everyday? How long to partnership? Anything over 2 years needs a really good explanation (i.e. there is no good explanation). I real partnership should be very transparent.

When I interviewed for this current job (fake partnership) and asked questions, many of the answers I was given were vague. I would say you should ask direct questions and if you suspect they are being shady, they probably are. It's difficult to have these direct conversations when you are interviewing as a resident. You feel just grateful that you are even getting an interview. You are worried you might offend someone by asking about the financials of the group. You don't want to seem like you are trying to avoid work by asking about the call structure. These practices know that, which is why they are able to feast on new grads.

The last part of your post is spot on. I know I feel that way.

Or one can just avoid these jokers by not signing for any partnership track that's longer than two years. Then, even if one doesn't become partner, the damage is limited.

Let's be serious. No partnership track contract will have provisions for the case the person does not make it to partner, or the group is sold etc. It's more like take it or leave it.

The whole idea of long partnership tracks is dangling the bait in front of suckers. One doesn't need more than a few months to figure out whether an employee is partner material. One year is more than enough.

So you would advise turning down anything over two years of partnership track?

 

[bkell101]

I agree. We personally include partner track docs in all meetings and everything is open and transparent. We've also never had a doc not make partner that was partner track. We go 4 years partner track but essentially zero chance you don't make it and if we were to sell out in the interim, they'd get a cut of that.

After reading the posts, seems like this is not the norm. Do you guys put in the contract specifics about the cut of the buyout if you haven't made partner and you have been there 3.5 years?

 

[bkell101]

I agree. We personally include partner track docs in all meetings and everything is open and transparent. We've also never had a doc not make partner that was partner track. We go 4 years partner track but essentially zero chance you don't make it and if we were to sell out in the interim, they'd get a cut of that.

I'm not sure why this type of transparency and honesty isn't the standard, even if it does take 4 years to be an equal sr partner.

 

[GravelRider]

I'm not sure why this type of transparency and honesty isn't the standard, even if it does take 4 years to be an equal sr partner.

Think of a partnership track as an investment. You are not only potentially investing money, but you are investing your most precious resource...time. Would you invest a significant amount of money in a company that you knew nothing about? Would you invest in a company where you didn't know much about the leadership or the direction the company is headed in? If someone came up to you and said give me $100k to invest in my company, but they refused to share the financial status of that business, would you invest? If a group is not transparent then they don't deserve your investment.

 

[pjl]

Or one can just avoid these jokers by not signing for any partnership track that's longer than two years. Then, even if one doesn't become partner, the damage is limited.

Let's be serious. No partnership track contract will have provisions for the case the person does not make it to partner, or the group is sold etc. It's more like take it or leave it.

The whole idea of long partnership tracks is dangling the bait in front of suckers. One doesn't need more than a few months to figure out whether an employee is partner material. One year is more than enough.

One year can be on the short side for hires that are showing consistent improvement but are not quite there yet. If they arent there by 2 years they wont get there though.


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[deleted171991]

So you would advise turning down anything over two years of partnership track?

I can't advise anything, because I haven't been in this situation. But I wouldn't sign up for a long partnership track, unless I am paid market wages for market working hours (as if I were a regular employee). If I were an honest group looking for a new partner, this is how I would do it, then I would ask for some money back as buy-in, if/when the employee makes partner.

Also, I would rather be a long-term employee in a place where everybody else is an employee, than where everybody else is a partner. One thing I have learnt is that the best workplace is one where every doc is pretty much equal. No partners, senior partners or other types of bean counters to dictate how one practices anesthesiology.

 

[risnwb]

Or one can just avoid these jokers by not signing for any partnership track that's longer than two years. Then, even if one doesn't become partner, the damage is limited.

Let's be serious. No partnership track contract will have provisions for the case the person does not make it to partner, or the group is sold etc. It's more like take it or leave it.

The whole idea of long partnership tracks is dangling the bait in front of suckers. One doesn't need more than a few months to figure out whether an employee is partner material. One year is more than enough.

Just to give a different perspective, as I believe there are actually fair groups out there:

I am currently leaving a decent employed job (I am two years out of residency) for a two year partnership track. I chose this because I can't see myself as being happy working for my current administration for the rest of my career. Money is not going to be too much different but there's more upside with the private group, more vacation, and profit sharing.

If after one year the group sells I get a payout worth 50% of what a partner receives. They are not planning on selling (or so they say) and were willing to include this in my contract.

Who knows if it is a mistake, maybe they sell when I am 11 months in, but at least that will not amount to much lost time...



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[caligas]

There is only one thing in common among all partnerships: those who got there before you will always screw you, you only can hope they use a lubricant!

True. Definitely no reach-around for the newbies.

 

[bkell101]

Think of a partnership track as an investment. You are not only potentially investing money, but you are investing your most precious resource...time. Would you invest a significant amount of money in a company that you knew nothing about? Would you invest in a company where you didn't know much about the leadership or the direction the company is headed in? If someone came up to you and said give me $100k to invest in my company, but they refused to share the financial status of that business, would you invest? If a group is not transparent then they don't deserve your investment.

This makes complete sense

 

[Wiscoblue]

Think of a partnership track as an investment. You are not only potentially investing money, but you are investing your most precious resource...time. Would you invest a significant amount of money in a company that you knew nothing about? Would you invest in a company where you didn't know much about the leadership or the direction the company is headed in? If someone came up to you and said give me $100k to invest in my company, but they refused to share the financial status of that business, would you invest? If a group is not transparent then they don't deserve your investment.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. When I quit my faculty job to go into private practice, I went on pure faith. On the word of the chairman and power of trust in a hand shake. My contract did not get to me till 6 months into the job. I signed it without reading it. Over the years I have been the recruiter for our group and everyone that we have hired has always made partner except for one crazy angry guy. We are up front and honest in our hiring process but when we get guys who show the contract to their lawyers and want the language changed and start asking for new clauses to be added we get wary. Usually the group will vote to move on to the next candidate. Unfortunately the potential new hire is not in a position to make demands. There are plenty of people waiting in the wings to invest that $100k as you put it. That's the reality.

 

[GravelRider]

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. When I quit my faculty job to go into private practice, I went on pure faith. On the word of the chairman and power of trust in a hand shake. My contract did not get to me till 6 months into the job. I signed it without reading it. Over the years I have been the recruiter for our group and everyone that we have hired has always made partner except for one crazy angry guy. We are up front and honest in our hiring process but when we get guys who show the contract to their lawyers and want the language changed and start asking for new clauses to be added we get wary. Usually the group will vote to move on to the next candidate. Unfortunately the potential new hire is not in a position to make demands. There are plenty of people waiting in the wings to invest that $100k as you put it. That's the reality.

I'm not advocating making demands or making crazy changes to a contract. What I am saying is you should have a good idea about the financial health of the business and the vision of the leadership before you invest. It is an unwise decision otherwise. Maybe 10 years ago you could sign based on a handshake and blind faith, but not in this day and age of predatory private practices and selling out to AMCs. If a practice is not transparent about the health of the business then it's a red flag and you are taking unnecessary risk. You are better off working for an AMC and making a bit more money.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I'm not advocating making demands or making crazy changes to a contract. What I am saying is you should have a good idea about the financial health of the business and the vision of the leadership before you invest. It is an unwise decision otherwise. Maybe 10 years ago you could sign based on a handshake and blind faith, but not in this day and age of predatory private practices and selling out to AMCs. If a practice is not transparent about the health of the business then it's a red flag and you are taking unnecessary risk. You are better off working for an AMC and making a bit more money.

What level of transparency would you like to see?

 

[GravelRider]

What level of transparency would you like to see?

If that's a real question then this is a big reason why management companies have gotten their foothold and will continue to takeover.

 

[Mman]

If that's a real question then this is a big reason why management companies have gotten their foothold and will continue to takeover.

not quite so nefarious. Anesthesia partnerships are not like publicly traded corporations. There generally isn't any debt (or minimal), there isn't a horde of cash sitting around, there isn't a profit margin to analyze. Basically money comes in, pays expenses, and the rest is distributed to partners with nothing left over. When you say "financial health", what you more likely mean is what sort of income the partners have had in the last few years as well as how long their contract(s) is for and the relationship with the hospital(s).

In other words, it's not like there are a bunch of books to look and at and make sure finances are on the up and up.

 

[Planktonmd]

not quite so nefarious. Anesthesia partnerships are not like publicly traded corporations. There generally isn't any debt (or minimal), there isn't a horde of cash sitting around, there isn't a profit margin to analyze. Basically money comes in, pays expenses, and the rest is distributed to partners with nothing left over. When you say "financial health", what you more likely mean is what sort of income the partners have had in the last few years as well as how long their contract(s) is for and the relationship with the hospital(s).

In other words, it's not like there are a bunch of books to look and at and make sure finances are on the up and up.

The fundamental problem is that the likelihood of the contract with the hospital to be renewed is a wild card and no applicant will ever be able to predict that with any certainty... so you are buying fish in the water basically!

 

[chocomorsel]

What level of transparency would you like to see?

The schedule, the call shifts, vacation per person, and of course, the financials. What the partners are making.. My practice is very transparent this way.
None of this bull****, we gonna pay you 250K for 2-3 years and then when you are done, we will decide whether or not you are worthy partner material and if so, you will make somewhere in the ballpark of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. And you are gonna take so much vacation, while you have no idea what everyone else is entitled to. And you getting the call dumped on, while the partners take minimal call. Come on.

 

[Stank811]

The fundamental problem is that the likelihood of the contract with the hospital to be renewed is a wild card and no applicant will ever be able to predict that with any certainty... so you are buying fish in the water basically!

Same goes for any group AMC or PP that holds the contract...only way around it is to be employed by the hospital

 

[GravelRider]

not quite so nefarious. Anesthesia partnerships are not like publicly traded corporations. There generally isn't any debt (or minimal), there isn't a horde of cash sitting around, there isn't a profit margin to analyze. Basically money comes in, pays expenses, and the rest is distributed to partners with nothing left over. When you say "financial health", what you more likely mean is what sort of income the partners have had in the last few years as well as how long their contract(s) is for and the relationship with the hospital(s).

In other words, it's not like there are a bunch of books to look and at and make sure finances are on the up and up.

So an applicant shouldn't be privy to the hierarchy of the group, how call is structured, who makes the schedule, is time off equal, what a typical year of earnings looks like, is surgical volume increasing/decreasing, is there a likelihood of group expansion into another setting, etc..? Rather an applicant should just sign a contract on the wish that the partnership spoken of in the contract turns into something good? All on a handshake (while the senior partner has his fingers crossed behind his back)?

Of course an anesthesia group is not the same as a publicly traded company. But there is an analogy there that is useful...Do your homework before you sign something. Advocating that a new resident doesn't ask a lot of questions before signing a "partnership" contract is irresponsible. Before signing any contract, you should have a very clear idea of group dynamics, environment, call system, pay, pathway to partnership, etc... There is nothing worse than showing up your first week and finding a bunch of senior partners who don't take call, work 20 hours during a busy week, take 20 weeks vacation while you are working 70 hours a week and making less than the hourly waged CRNAs. Yes, I am very bitter...

If I had to pick the lesser of two evils between an AMC and a private practice that has these fake partnership contracts, I would choose an AMC every single time.

 

[aimedicine]

So an applicant shouldn't be privy to the hierarchy of the group, how call is structured, who makes the schedule, is time off equal, what a typical year of earnings looks like, is surgical volume increasing/decreasing, is there a likelihood of group expansion into another setting, etc..? Rather an applicant should just sign a contract on the wish that the partnership spoken of in the contract turns into something good? All on a handshake (while the senior partner has his fingers crossed behind his back)?

Of course an anesthesia group is not the same as a publicly traded company. But there is an analogy there that is useful...Do your homework before you sign something. Advocating that a new resident doesn't ask a lot of questions before signing a "partnership" contract is irresponsible. Before signing any contract, you should have a very clear idea of group dynamics, environment, call system, pay, pathway to partnership, etc... There is nothing worse than showing up your first week and finding a bunch of senior partners who don't take call, work 20 hours during a busy week, take 20 weeks vacation while you are working 70 hours a week and making less than the hourly waged CRNAs. Yes, I am very bitter...

If I had to pick the lesser of two evils between an AMC and a private practice that has these fake partnership contracts, I would choose an AMC every single time.

Sounds like you need to quit your job uf you havent already done so, the anger will consume u.

 

[GravelRider]

Sounds like you need to quit your job uf you havent already done so, the anger will consume u.

I am not angry. It was my fault for not investigating things a bit more. All the signs were there. It's difficult to find another job when you are working close to 70 hours every week. Most new grads cannot afford to go on a couple month hiatus to find new work. Those loans don't pay themselves.

 

[aneftp]

I am not angry. It was my fault for not investigating things a bit more. All the signs were there. It's difficult to find another job when you are working close to 70 hours every week. Most new grads cannot afford to go on a couple month hiatus to find new work. Those loans don't pay themselves.

U have post call days off to go talk to local groups?

Or are u in the boonies and need 1-2 days off at a time to look for a job?

Yes. I do understand the financial pressure to keep a stable income with loans to be paid.

 

[GravelRider]

U have post call days off to go talk to local groups?

Or are u in the boonies and need 1-2 days off at a time to look for a job?

Yes. I do understand the financial pressure to keep a stable income with loans to be paid.

Travel time, mainly.

A lot of this goes back to the whole mentoring thing for residents. It's not so simple to just bounce jobs if things don't work out, so do your homework the first time.

And definitely don't buy a house until you are 100% sure you love your job.

 

[pjl]

Travel time, mainly.

A lot of this goes back to the whole mentoring thing for residents. It's not so simple to just bounce jobs if things don't work out, so do your homework the first time.

And definitely don't buy a house until you are 100% sure you love your job.

I would strongly encourage posting details of offers in private forum. We can ask questions and advise based on our experiences there.
You wont get a better cross section of anesthesiologists in various practice models and areas of the country anywhere that I know.

You need to find out the details of a group before joining, but there is an art to asking questions. Guys who ask only about lifestyle stuff and money, and never ask about case mix and the actual work stand out and are not looked upon favorably.

I second renting a place for the first year or until partnership. It will be tempting to buy something, but just remind yourself that you are not only looking to fit the practice, but also to find the right neighborhood.


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[Planktonmd]

Same goes for any group AMC or PP that holds the contract...only way around it is to be employed by the hospital

True but the AMC does not sell you future promises for a percentage of your income over several years!

 

[Mman]

So an applicant shouldn't be privy to the hierarchy of the group, how call is structured, who makes the schedule, is time off equal, what a typical year of earnings looks like, is surgical volume increasing/decreasing, is there a likelihood of group expansion into another setting, etc..? Rather an applicant should just sign a contract on the wish that the partnership spoken of in the contract turns into something good? All on a handshake (while the senior partner has his fingers crossed behind his back)?

Of course an anesthesia group is not the same as a publicly traded company. But there is an analogy there that is useful...Do your homework before you sign something. Advocating that a new resident doesn't ask a lot of questions before signing a "partnership" contract is irresponsible. Before signing any contract, you should have a very clear idea of group dynamics, environment, call system, pay, pathway to partnership, etc... There is nothing worse than showing up your first week and finding a bunch of senior partners who don't take call, work 20 hours during a busy week, take 20 weeks vacation while you are working 70 hours a week and making less than the hourly waged CRNAs. Yes, I am very bitter...

If I had to pick the lesser of two evils between an AMC and a private practice that has these fake partnership contracts, I would choose an AMC every single time.

You said you wanted to know the "financial health" of a group. I'm saying that unlike a publicly traded corporation, there really isn't such a thing for a private group.

Of course you should ask questions about call, schedule, vacation, etc.

Personally I'd focus more time on asking if anyone has every not made partner and why. If you asked us, we'd say everybody has made partner every time. I was in the same position and am far better off than I would've been taking the job offer from an AMC I turned down that offered slightly more pay than I got initially. Then again I went to a group where I personally knew several partners and was recruited to join. It's really all about connections in landing a good job. Nobody (hopefully) is going to screw over people they already have a good relationship with. But joining a group where you have no previous connection to anybody? Not sure you will ever be 100% comfortable with anything they tell you.

 

[GravelRider]

You said you wanted to know the "financial health" of a group. I'm saying that unlike a publicly traded corporation, there really isn't such a thing for a private group.

Of course you should ask questions about call, schedule, vacation, etc.

I don't really understand how a private practice doesn't have a "financial health." Those things are certainly different than the Silicon Valley start-up, but a private practice at its heart is a business. Am I wrong? Payer mix, hospital subsidy, relationship with hospital administration, gaining/losing contracts at other facilities, etc... All of these are indications of the financial health of a practice. It's an indication of whether that promised partnership is a real thing or not. A practice that is growing and in a good financial spot is less likely to screw someone over. There is a difference between a group hiring because they got a new ASC contract versus a group hiring because people keep leaving.

The original question was about making partnership, which inevitably turned into a discussion about looking out for fake partnerships. Your group may be a diamond in the rough, but there are a lot of lousy jobs out there. In the majority of these instances a new grad would be better off taking the employed job at the hospital or AMC. Don't just sign a contract because it says partnership...do your homework. I, for one, would prefer a partner who wanted to understand the group situation and the future direction and wasn't just there to sit in a room and collect a check.

 

[deleted50478]

I don't really understand how a private practice doesn't have a "financial health." Those things are certainly different than the Silicon Valley start-up, but a private practice at its heart is a business. Am I wrong? Payer mix, hospital subsidy, relationship with hospital administration, gaining/losing contracts at other facilities, etc... All of these are indications of the financial health of a practice. It's an indication of whether that promised partnership is a real thing or not. A practice that is growing and in a good financial spot is less likely to screw someone over. There is a difference between a group hiring because they got a new ASC contract versus a group hiring because people keep leaving.

The original question was about making partnership, which inevitably turned into a discussion about looking out for fake partnerships. Your group may be a diamond in the rough, but there are a lot of lousy jobs out there. In the majority of these instances a new grad would be better off taking the employed job at the hospital or AMC. Don't just sign a contract because it says partnership...do your homework. I, for one, would prefer a partner who wanted to understand the group situation and the future direction and wasn't just there to sit in a room and collect a check.

A private practice is kind of like a business but at its heart a private practice is a group of individuals who band together to divide the costs, proceeds, and work from all their individual efforts.

A business that takes proceeds of the individual work provided by a collection of doctors and divides the work and/or the proceeds inequitably is an AMC. A lot of groups that think they are private practices are really AMCs.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

If that's a real question then this is a big reason why management companies have gotten their foothold and will continue to takeover.

I don't follow your reasoning.

What exactly do you want to see?
W-2?
K-1?
A/R?
Group expenses?
Going back how far?

I don't think any of us in private practice are going to hand over the keys to the kingdom just because we interview someone and they ask. We don't know how serious anyone is about taking a job. That may be the reason that money is sort of vague. The reality of things is that financial information is highly sensitive stuff. Now if someone is seriously interested in a job, then some more financial information is provided.

Ideally there would be someone at the practice that you know or have a connection to that will let you know if the group is "good" or not.

 

[Mman]

I don't really understand how a private practice doesn't have a "financial health." Those things are certainly different than the Silicon Valley start-up, but a private practice at its heart is a business. Am I wrong? Payer mix, hospital subsidy, relationship with hospital administration, gaining/losing contracts at other facilities, etc... All of these are indications of the financial health of a practice.

All those things are things you can ask about, but not things you can see on an income statement or annual report. A private group will likely run with a net financial position of zero. Payer mix and case volume is about the only thing you can get objective info on relating to what you are asking about. The rest you are merely taking on the good faith of what they are telling you.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

So an applicant shouldn't be privy to the hierarchy of the group, how call is structured, who makes the schedule, is time off equal, what a typical year of earnings looks like, is surgical volume increasing/decreasing, is there a likelihood of group expansion into another setting, etc..? Rather an applicant should just sign a contract on the wish that the partnership spoken of in the contract turns into something good? All on a handshake (while the senior partner has his fingers crossed behind his back)?

Of course an anesthesia group is not the same as a publicly traded company. But there is an analogy there that is useful...Do your homework before you sign something. Advocating that a new resident doesn't ask a lot of questions before signing a "partnership" contract is irresponsible. Before signing any contract, you should have a very clear idea of group dynamics, environment, call system, pay, pathway to partnership, etc... There is nothing worse than showing up your first week and finding a bunch of senior partners who don't take call, work 20 hours during a busy week, take 20 weeks vacation while you are working 70 hours a week and making less than the hourly waged CRNAs. Yes, I am very bitter...

If I had to pick the lesser of two evils between an AMC and a private practice that has these fake partnership contracts, I would choose an AMC every single time.

I agree with most of what you are saying except that I would want to make sure someone is very interested in my group and vice versa before disclosing too much financial information.

 

[GravelRider]

My point is that if you don't have a good sense on the "health" of a practice...financial and otherwise then you are better off signing an employment contract with a hospital or AMC. That's the reality nowadays. My advice for residents is not to sign a contract just because it has the word partnership in it.

 

[GravelRider]

I agree with most of what you are saying except that I would want to make sure someone is very interested in my group and vice versa before disclosing too much financial information.

Of course not. Nobody expects you to give it up on a first date.

 

[deleted171991]

This is gold:

Then again I went to a group where I personally knew several partners and was recruited to join. It's really all about connections in landing a good job. Nobody (hopefully) is going to screw over people they already have a good relationship with. But joining a group where you have no previous connection to anybody? Not sure you will ever be 100% comfortable with anything they tell you.

The moral: make sure you don't get just good training but especially good contacts and friendships out of your residency and fellowships. I.e. be smarter than FFP was.

 

[GA8314]

This is gold:


The moral: make sure you don't get just good training but especially good contacts and friendships out of your residency and fellowships. I.e. be smarter than FFP was.

LOL This is important. NEVER EVER EVER burn a bridge.

 

[Planktonmd]

The bottom line is: The amount of information any private group is going to disclose to an applicant is directly proportionate to how valuable that applicant is and how desperate the group is. Unfortunately in the current job market conditions no applicant is too valuable, and if you start asking too many questions they don't like they will quickly move on to the next victim!
They all have skeletons hidden and they are not under obligation to disclose them to you, so you either take the risk or stay away from private groups since the majority of them will be gone within the next 5 years.

 

[Mman]

This is gold:


The moral: make sure you don't get just good training but especially good contacts and friendships out of your residency and fellowships. I.e. be smarter than FFP was.

I think a primary question med students should ask on interview days is about where their former residents are working. I mean in the end you go to residency to get a job afterwards. If you don't like the sound of where their former grads are working then you might not want to do residency there. I was fortunate enough to do a residency at an elite academic name that also had lots of grads working in PP groups around the country. So when I was winding down in residency I had a network of contacts at good jobs to see who was hiring.

Also, don't be a lazy resident. We know people. We aren't just looking at an official letter of rec. We'll buy your attendings a few beers and get the real scoop on who we'd want to work with and who we wouldn't.

 

[deleted162650]

I think a primary question med students should ask on interview days is about where their former residents are working. I mean in the end you go to residency to get a job afterwards. If you don't like the sound of where their former grads are working then you might not want to do residency there. I was fortunate enough to do a residency at an elite academic name that also had lots of grads working in PP groups around the country. So when I was winding down in residency I had a network of contacts at good jobs to see who was hiring.

Also, don't be a lazy resident. We know people. We aren't just looking at an official letter of rec. We'll buy your attendings a few beers and get the real scoop on who we'd want to work with and who we wouldn't.

Exactly this ^^. Quality groups are only gonna hire people that come highly recommended from programs they know well. Our applicants are fully vetted even before their CV hits our desk. You don't find us, we find you.

And a word about parter tracks from the group's point of view: If you have a stable, successful (see also lucrative) practice in a desirable area, you tend to want to keep it that way. You don't want a string of people coming through for a few years just to make a few bucks and then moving on. You want people who want to stay long term and are invested in the practice. A fairly structured track is a valuable retention tool in this manner. Qualities of fair partner tracks have been discussed at length in the past.

 

[Mman]

Exactly this ^^. Quality groups are only gonna hire people that come highly recommended from programs they know well. Our applicants are fully vetted even before their CV hits our desk. You don't find us, we find you.

And a word about parter tracks from the group's point of view: If you have a stable, successful (see also lucrative) practice in a desirable area, you tend to want to keep it that way. You don't want a string of people coming through for a few years just to make a few bucks and then moving on. You want people who want to stay long term and are invested in the practice. A fairly structured track is a valuable retention tool in this manner. Qualities of fair partner tracks have been discussed at length in the past.

bingo

If you find a "partner track" job by a posting on gasworks, well you get what you pay for and I have no idea how you realistically vet it before joining. Also, you are correct that a successful group doesn't want a lot of doc turnover. Everybody is happier if people want to stay long term.

 

[deleted171991]

Beats me why more groups don't test candidates as locums, for a few months, and the other way round, especially.

 

[deleted162650]

Beats me why more groups don't test candidates as locums, for a few months, and the other way round, especially.

I think because good groups don't have to. They recruit quality residents from quality programs who already know people in the group and who want to be there. Also, our locums rate is below what a 1st year partner track hire would make for equivalent work and it would just be tacking on few more months until partnership so it really benefits no one. In fact, it sounds borderline predatory to me.

 

[GravelRider]

I agree 100% that connections are your best bet...if you have them. But let's be honest, the vast majority of residents are using gasworks to find jobs...even the superstars with 3 fellowships. I had my program director and multiple attendings call around for me, but the market is tight and there are no openings. I'm sure my case is not unusual. So you are left to cold call (low yield) or gasworks. In those instances you have to be able to evaluate a practice beyond some vague promises.

 

[chocomorsel]

I think a primary question med students should ask on interview days is about where their former residents are working. I mean in the end you go to residency to get a job afterwards. If you don't like the sound of where their former grads are working then you might not want to do residency there. I was fortunate enough to do a residency at an elite academic name that also had lots of grads working in PP groups around the country. So when I was winding down in residency I had a network of contacts at good jobs to see who was hiring.

Also, don't be a lazy resident. We know people. We aren't just looking at an official letter of rec. We'll buy your attendings a few beers and get the real scoop on who we'd want to work with and who we wouldn't.

How long does this bull**** of "I am gonna speak to your attending" last anyway? Do you really think that how someone did in residency is exactly how they would perform in the real world? In residency, people have you by the balls and abuse is not uncommon. Residents getting in trouble due to bull**** reasons like "Unprofessionalism" is also not uncommon.

I am speaking from experience here. It happened to me and to lots of people I know. Most of them minorities and or Women. But Thankfully none of that fake ass you-are-a-crappy-Doctor because you have pissed off the wrong people and are unprofessional has followed me into private practice.

Why is that? Maybe because in the real world people are actually nice and reapectful towards me so I don't feel the need to stand up to bullies and be "defensive" like I did in residency?

Residency is not the end all be all. A lot of the drama that happens in the residency bubble does not happen in the real world.

When do you PP partners start looking at someone's work history beyond residency and put more stock into that aspect of their careers?

Please have coffee with my attendings. Some of them are good storytellers and act like they are above and beyond, when in reality, they are in academics for a reason. And not a good one either.