PhD/PsyD Making waves as an intern

[Intern2223]

I’m currently about 2 months into my predoctoral internship at an APA accredited site in a private practice setting. This is my first experience within a private practice setting, most of my experience has been with much larger organizations with more resources. I’m trying to figure out how to approach some of the concerns I have about the site. Some of the supervisors/training team are very quick to becoming defensive, passive-aggressive, and/or petty in response to myself and other interns bringing up concerns or questions that they take in a negative way. I don’t want to do or say something to the point that it will impact my evaluations/ability to complete/pass internship. The site had me administer an outdated iq test (where the newer edition came out in 2014) and when I asked about the newer edition and whether the test they had listed on their test request was accurate, they were completely unaware that there was a newer edition. (They also had said that the outdated test they had was only bought about 5 years ago, even though that version had been out since 2003). I have multiple other concerns about their approach to assessments and general use of outdated editions of tests, though administering the outdated iq test is currently the most frustrating. There are frequent hipaa violations/not following hipaa compliance. These are some of the biggest ethical concerns. There are also more minor issues, such as their level of mileage reimbursement, wide-spread difficulties with completing documentation on time (which is sometimes needed for our/the interns documentation to be completed), behavior during supervision/trainings (including clipping nails, texting, responding to emails, going through mail when others are trying to discuss clients), etc. There are also things I would love to do to help them continue to improve, like update their intake paperwork form to remove outdated terms like MR and be more inclusive for lgbtq and other marginalized groups.

Suggestions for how to approach all of these different things without ruining my ability to pass/successfully complete internship? (I know most postdoc applications want a LoR from an internship supervisor as well, so i don’t want to ruin my chances of getting a decent letter) If I and others have tried to bring this stuff up to the training team at the internship, is it okay to now just bring all of this up with my DCT and the hipaa related concerns to the state board? Also, I was told by the previous intern cohort that if anything was enough for them to lose apa accreditation (they were making reports/complaints to apa and their dcts as well), that my intern cohort would be okay/we would be considered as still having completed an apa accredited internship, is this correct?

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[borne_before]

I've got some thoughts. Be aware that some of this may just be spitballing and contradictory at times:

1. You could make some waves. But, think about the larger picture. Some of the stuff you point out is actionable. Some of it is so so. I am usually a big proponent of keeping your head down when possible.
2. The issue could be less with the site and more with you. But it could also be both. Internship is a hard as hell adjustment. I moved to a diff city, with poopy weather, and started to have some big issues. That and strattera (did not work for me), meant that I started making some busch league errors. I slipped into a major depressive episode and thank god for a responsive nurse prac, some vyvanse and prozac, and within a month or so, things were looking up. I actually got a corrective action plan mid year. It also didn't help that my main supervisor was a drunk (left the site due to boozing the year after I left/let me run the sites basically independent) and the good supervisor I had went on maternity leave.
3. Adjustment issues can filter out the positive (negative glasses in kid CBT). Maybe you're overly focused on the shortcomings of the site?
4. The site might be doing the best they can. They're smaller, have fewer resources, etc. Remember, they're doing all psych students a solid by being an APA accredited site. The supes probably dont get extra money or time for supervision.
5. The nonchalance in supervision probably speaks to your competence - meaning that you're probably pissing excellence. You can ask them for more critical feedback - but that might also be your imposter syndrome.
6. Rely on the cohort. That will probably be the most enduring lesson from your internship. Focus on those relationships. My cohort was rad and we still keep in touch.
7. Focus on landing your dream post doc. That's the thing that was most impactful for me.
8. Regarding HIPAA - nobody likes a freakin' rat or snitch. You're not a gaddam compliance officer. Keep your head down.
9. They're not gonna change mileage for you - it's probably based on the IRS thingy. Might be like 60 cents or something.
10. Documentaiton - "hey, bro, I need more doc time."
11. While this seems reasonable when you're not far out from uni - the real world finds stuff like this nitpicky "update their intake paperwork form to remove outdated terms like MR and be more inclusive for lgbtq and other marginalized groups." First of all, no one in the general public ever knows what ID or IDD is. Theres prolly a reason there. They also didn't hire you to re-work anything.
12. The IQ is kinda weird. But, I'd prolly just keep my head down about it. It's their license after all.

 

[PsyDr]

1) “Mr. Empoyer, here’s a bunch of threats to your business. Do you want to spend tons of money to deal with them, get a board complaint, or take the easy route and just fire me on some trumped up stuff about slow pace?”

2) Honestly, the inclusion stuff is aspirational. It has to come after business.

3) Ask for a new IQ test.

4) Almost no one understands HIPAA. There are many many many many exceptions to that law, and it’s only be enforced a few times. Unless you’ve read the law, maybe don’t complain about it, and take the opportunity to learn about it. The fine might be cheaper than the change in business practices, and you might not know what is and isn’t allowed.

5) If you bring this stuff up to the board, your career is over. The chances of someone taking a student who does this stuff is bad.

 

[Sanman]

1) “Mr. Empoyer, here’s a bunch of threats to your business. Do you want to spend tons of money to deal with them, get a board complaint, or take the easy route and just fire me on some trumped up stuff about slow pace?”

2) Honestly, the inclusion stuff is aspirational. It has to come after business.

3) Ask for a new IQ test.

4) Almost no one understands HIPPA. There are many many many many exceptions to that law, and it’s only be enforced a few times. Unless you’ve read the law, maybe don’t complain about it, and take the opportunity to learn about it. The fine might be cheaper than the change in business practices, and you might not know what is and isn’t allowed.

5) If you bring this stuff up to the board, your career is over. The chances of someone taking a student who does this stuff is bad.

To add to this, you are not licensed and so any impact will be on your supervisors license and you are shielded. This means you are concerning yourself with things above your paygrade. So, complain about things above your paygrade and maybe piss off the person that has to sign your paperwork ( and can easily not do this or cause trouble for you) or keep quiet, pass , and get an LOR. It is your choice. Once you are licensed, I would not consider working there. If you want to provide free additional labor to change intake paperwork, go ahead and ask. You may get a "No" because certain things may need to be run past a lawyer again. You posted this because you aware of the consequences and right to be concerned.

 

[WisNeuro]

When it comes to private practice internships/postdocs, Caveat Emptor

 

[neurotic_cow]

I was in a similar position as an intern and had many ethical and legal concerns. However, when I expressed my concerns, it did NOT go well. I thought I was doing the right thing by being ethical, but it just made me life hell. I was a pariah for the rest of internship, and made out to be an example of what happens when you question your superiors. Supervisors have told me to “play the game” and keep your head down, which is what I wish I had done and what I would encourage you to do.

 

[clausewitz2]

4) Almost no one understands HIPPA. There are many many many many exceptions to that law, and it’s only be enforced a few times. Unless you’ve read the law, maybe don’t complain about it, and take the opportunity to learn about it. The fine might be cheaper than the change in business practices, and you might not know what is and isn’t allowed.

If I had a dollar every time someone freaked out because HIPAA when I called another physician who the patient directly asked me to call in a way I documented contemporaneously because "there's no ROI" . . . well, I'd at least be able to treat myself to something topshelf.

 

[WisNeuro]

If I had a dollar every time someone freaked out because HIPAA when I called another physician who the patient directly asked me to call in a way I documented contemporaneously because "there's no ROI" . . . well, I'd at least be able to treat myself to something topshelf.

Yeah, so many people do not understand the continuity of care component to the policies.

 

[smalltownpsych]

A lot of crazy stuff happened during my internship and just about every colleague I know. At a certain level of ethical violations it might be important to act, especially if lives are at stake, but much of what you bring up is what students should be bringing to the practicing psychologists, enthusiastic energy about the profession. It is a hard job and it is hard to stay up with everything and run a business and train new people and in the next couple of years it will be your job to run things and bring this to the field. As others said, try not to focus on what is wrong, instead focus on what you are bringing to the setting and the patients and the field. Good luck with the rest of your year. It’s typically a bit of a roller coaster so might as well enjoy the ride.

 

[foreverbull]

One thing I’ve discovered from my experience and some others is that some supervisors think very highly of themselves and won’t hesitate to find fault with you if you come off as critical of their style in any way, shape, or form. Or even if you become a bit more guarded as a reaction to their style—not even overtly critical. They won’t like it and will label you with adjectives that haunt you on your evaluations.

In addition, they also have to write you letters for postdoc in Nov/Dec/Jan, just months after starting, and you will have to use them as references for a few years after you finish at the very least. It’s a huge bridge to burn. You are not in a position of power here, and stand to face the more dire consequences personally, such as risking them going the unethical route of failing you because you hurt their ego. They would likely come up with the “right” words to pretend like it’s a competence issue. But that is the worst case scenario—not necessarily the most probable outcome.

That said, most supervisors in general don’t want constructive feedback from you as their supervisee and don’t want you to have concerns with them or their practices/style. Even the better ones have more of a one-sided approach to supervision and see it as their job to be your teacher and mold you into a practitioner in their style, so the feedback is not bidirectional. They don’t want you to have concerns with anything they do (I’ve learned this firsthand as well).

Be careful, no matter what you choose, and pay attention to the folks who did it, like @neurotic_cow . Make sure you think through the potential costs to you and your career before proceeding. Document it if you think their are ethical violations to protect yourself if something gets reported in the future, and document it if you’ve expressed concern about that. You are still practicing under their license ultimately, though.

I “played the game” as best I could after an initial guarded period and tried to make sure I didn’t get red flag rec letters from my supervisors (mine did seem impersonal and lukewarm though, which in retrospect hurt me, I think). Initially I became a bit guarded as a reaction to my supervisor’s demand that I share all about my insecurities in supervision and cry as much as possible in the first 3-4 months. And I don’t perceive my actions as a mistake, just a natural response to what felt like an emotionally demanding/overly-probing environment. I did cry in supervision, but it wasn’t until spring, when the wave of postdoc apps had ended and I was emptyhanded. Then my eval looked more positive after that. Go figure.

 

[msc545]

1) “Mr. Empoyer, here’s a bunch of threats to your business. Do you want to spend tons of money to deal with them, get a board complaint, or take the easy route and just fire me on some trumped up stuff about slow pace?”

2) Honestly, the inclusion stuff is aspirational. It has to come after business.

3) Ask for a new IQ test.

4) Almost no one understands HIPAA. There are many many many many exceptions to that law, and it’s only be enforced a few times. Unless you’ve read the law, maybe don’t complain about it, and take the opportunity to learn about it. The fine might be cheaper than the change in business practices, and you might not know what is and isn’t allowed.

5) If you bring this stuff up to the board, your career is over. The chances of someone taking a student who does this stuff is bad.

I had a horrid situation when I was a first-year pre-doc intern, and I managed it very poorly. I had a female patient who I was seeing by herself for marital problems, and at one visit she told me that "Steve" (pseudonym) an MA-level guy who worked at the same clinic where I was working, had been calling her at home and asking her out, and wanted me to tell her what to do. I told her to continue discouraging him, and I also decided to speak to my supervisor since this seemed way above my pay grade. I did that, and while he was visibly uncomfortable, he promised to speak to Steve. Several days later he told me that he and Steve had "prayed about the problem" and it was "solved". When I next saw my patient, she indicated that Steve had apologized to her, then stopped calling her. She was relieved.

Two weeks later, Steve started calling her again, and again I went to my supervisor, who again promised to "counsel" Steve. A few days after that, my supervisor called me to his office to meet with him and Steve, and when I arrived, announced to me that he had called the meeting so he and Steve could "help you" and "explore the possibility of you leaving the agency".

I was astounded, and also very concerned since I had about 4 weeks to go until that year's internship was over. Stupidly, I threatened Steve and my supervisor with licensing complaints - at which point my supervisor bluntly told me to leave and not ever come back, which of course I did. I made a serious mistake not just with the threat, but also in relying on my supervisor.

When my program found out about this, they were hugely unsympathetic, and almost kicked me out of the program - I barely managed to continue, and as a result, had a very miserable grad school experience.

I am telling you this story because you need to realize that in the situation you described, given your professional level at that agency, you have no power whatsoever and you are a very convenient target for displaced hostility. Say NOTHING to anyone about any of the problems you described, and keep your head down and just do your work, lest you attract some very unwanted and potentially damaging punishment from these people.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's only a year, and as long as patients aren't being harmed, just keep your head low. It's not the empowering message I'd prefer to provide in 2022, but it's the reality of where you are in your training. Unfortunately, you are "stuck" with them until you are fully licensed.

I had a similar experience from a practica site (who then hired me) where I was discriminated against, had proof, but I had to suck it up bc I needed letters of rec from them and I already saw they were vindictive and petty. I am someone who doesn't usually shy away from tough conversations, but I got burned and it negatively impacted my training. They tanked my LOR by making it lukewarm. I had multiple internship sites ask me specifically if something had happened because it was an outlier; I'm sure I lost other interview opportunities because of it. The worst part....they had the gall to cold call me and push me to apply to their post-doc program. Unfortunately, they were known to be a toxic place, but it was a name that could open doors, so I just sucked it up. I can't express the relief I had when I received my license in the mail because then I knew I'd never have to put up with their BS ever again.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Good advice to the intern to keep quiet (unless clients are in imminent risk), but can we get a pledge from the some of the more senior folks around here that when we see nonsense going on, we address it? I have no issue contacting another psychologists (or any other discipline, forvthat matter), if I see something funky going on. I do it more in a "I just want to be sure I'm reading this correctly/getting accurate info" kind of way, but I let them know that I've noticed something concerning. PLEASE do the same. Trainees should not have to deal with this crap!!

 

[msc545]

Interestingly, here in California, you cannot report Psychologists to the licensing board unless you are a patient of that Psychologist. If a Psychologist is an APA member you can report them there, but I am not sure the APA can or will do anything. They did nothing to the two Psychologists that designed the torture program(s) used by the CIA in Iraq and Afghanistan and actually tortured prisoners themselves.

 

[Sanman]

Interestingly, here in California, you cannot report Psychologists to the licensing board unless you are a patient of that Psychologist. If a Psychologist is an APA member you can report them there, but I am not sure the APA can or will do anything. They did nothing to the two Psychologists that designed the torture program(s) used by the CIA in Iraq and Afghanistan and actually tortured prisoners themselves.

APA has no actual power to do anything other than maybe revoke membership.

 

[msc545]

APA could have at least kicked the two torturers out of the organization, but they didn't even do that - yet another reason I am not and never will be a member of that gutless organization.

 

[WisNeuro]

Interestingly, here in California, you cannot report Psychologists to the licensing board unless you are a patient of that Psychologist. If a Psychologist is an APA member you can report them there, but I am not sure the APA can or will do anything. They did nothing to the two Psychologists that designed the torture program(s) used by the CIA in Iraq and Afghanistan and actually tortured prisoners themselves.

Can you link to the CA statute or CA BoP rule that stipulates this? The BoP FAQ for CA would seem to directly contradict this notion.

 

[foreverbull]

Interestingly, here in California, you cannot report Psychologists to the licensing board unless you are a patient of that Psychologist. If a Psychologist is an APA member you can report them there, but I am not sure the APA can or will do anything. They did nothing to the two Psychologists that designed the torture program(s) used by the CIA in Iraq and Afghanistan and actually tortured prisoners themselves.

My understanding is that anyone can report anonymously in CA via the Breeze system online but that anonymous reporting certainly limits the BOP’s investigation if you don’t want to identify how you know the info. I live in CA as well and have never heard that only clients can report.

 

[futureapppsy2]

In general, I just have to say that there's a ton of irony whenever a scandal blows up and people are like "why didn't people say anything?" when systems actively punish people for saying something. It's like "gee, why do you think no one said anything if it meant choosing to tank their career/make their life much more difficult???"

 

[msc545]

My understanding is that anyone can report anonymously in CA via the Breeze system online but that anonymous reporting certainly limits the BOP’s investigation if you don’t want to identify how you know the info. I live in CA as well and have never heard that only clients can report.

I asked the board directly about this a few years ago, and what I wrote was essentially their response. I don't see any place in the Breeze system to report anything at all, but I might be missing it. Can you direct me to the place where you can do this in that system?

 

[msc545]

In general, I just have to say that there's a ton of irony whenever a scandal blows up and people are like "why didn't people say anything?" when systems actively punish people for saying something. It's like "gee, why do you think no one said anything if it meant choosing to tank their career/make their life much more difficult???"

Remember - "No good deed goes unpunished".

 

[foreverbull]

I asked the board directly about this a few years ago, and what I wrote was essentially their response. I don't see any place in the Breeze system to report anything at all, but I might be missing it. Can you direct me to the place where you can do this in that system?

I assumed you could go to the “consumer” section and file as a professional.

https://www.breeze.ca.gov/datamart/complaint.do?applicationId=1

Here, the board says anyone can file a complaint and do it anonymously.

Filing a Complaint - California Board of Psychology

I also had a private consultation with the CA Psych Association ethics line in which the psychologist ethics person and I ended up discussing whether to report another psychologist to the board (not the original ethical issue I’d called about, but came up as a possibility), so it seems to be possible or she would’ve told me there’s no way to.

However, to your point, I think it’s nuanced. If it involves a mutual client, I doubt they’d do anything because they aren’t investigators and the client has to file the complaint in that case—I wonder if they just have a note in their file documenting it in case it corroborates a client’s possible future complaint? Not sure if they document that. I think the only time a psychologist would file a complaint that would be investigated is if you observe an ethical violation firsthand with another psychologist, not hearing via word of mouth from a former client of the offending psychologist.

 

[WisNeuro]

I assumed you could go to the “consumer” section and file as a professional.

https://www.breeze.ca.gov/datamart/complaint.do?applicationId=1

Here, the board says anyone can file a complaint and do it anonymously.

Filing a Complaint - California Board of Psychology

I also had a private consultation with the CA Psych Association ethics line in which the psychologist ethics person and I ended up discussing whether to report another psychologist to the board (not the original ethical issue I’d called about, but came up as a possibility), so it seems to be possible or she would’ve told me there’s no way I could even if I wanted to.

It would be highly irregular, and likely illegal to not allow other professionals to report other professionals to the board. Particularly as many reporting situations fall under our legally mandated reporter role. Unfortunately, many psychologists, as evidenced in this thread, do not have a good grasp of the rules and regs of the state in which they are licensed in.

 

[borne_before]

Remember - "No good deed goes unpunished".

This my dads motto. He’s a now (retired) tenured professor. He declined emeritus status.

 

[calimich]

This my dads motto. He’s a now (retired) tenured professor. He declined emeritus status.

Do you know why he declined?

 

[neurotic_cow]

In general, I just have to say that there's a ton of irony whenever a scandal blows up and people are like "why didn't people say anything?" when systems actively punish people for saying something. It's like "gee, why do you think no one said anything if it meant choosing to tank their career/make their life much more difficult???"

Exactly. I ended up expressing my concerns on internship because during grad school there was such an emphasis placed on ethics and, you know, following the laws. I won’t get into specifics but there were some major issues… however, the more I talk with others about their internships, there are issues everywhere and I wish we had discussed this in grad school so I didn’t go into it having such high expectations. There was no discussion about potential consequences of reporting problems. I was naive to think that the protections they discussed during onboarding to report violations would actually protect me. I had a hard time getting a letter of recommendation for postdoc applications and it significantly impacted my life and career. Suffice to say, I learned my lesson!

 

[PsyDr]

I had a horrid situation when I was a first-year pre-doc intern, and I managed it very poorly. I had a female patient who I was seeing by herself for marital problems, and at one visit she told me that "Steve" (pseudonym) an MA-level guy who worked at the same clinic where I was working, had been calling her at home and asking her out, and wanted me to tell her what to do. I told her to continue discouraging him, and I also decided to speak to my supervisor since this seemed way above my pay grade. I did that, and while he was visibly uncomfortable, he promised to speak to Steve. Several days later he told me that he and Steve had "prayed about the problem" and it was "solved". When I next saw my patient, she indicated that Steve had apologized to her, then stopped calling her. She was relieved.

Two weeks later, Steve started calling her again, and again I went to my supervisor, who again promised to "counsel" Steve. A few days after that, my supervisor called me to his office to meet with him and Steve, and when I arrived, announced to me that he had called the meeting so he and Steve could "help you" and "explore the possibility of you leaving the agency".

I was astounded, and also very concerned since I had about 4 weeks to go until that year's internship was over. Stupidly, I threatened Steve and my supervisor with licensing complaints - at which point my supervisor bluntly told me to leave and not ever come back, which of course I did. I made a serious mistake not just with the threat, but also in relying on my supervisor.

When my program found out about this, they were hugely unsympathetic, and almost kicked me out of the program - I barely managed to continue, and as a result, had a very miserable grad school experience.

I am telling you this story because you need to realize that in the situation you described, given your professional level at that agency, you have no power whatsoever and you are a very convenient target for displaced hostility. Say NOTHING to anyone about any of the problems you described, and keep your head down and just do your work, lest you attract some very unwanted and potentially damaging punishment from these people.

I thought you were not talking to me. Still waiting for an answer to my question.

 

[msc545]

This my dads motto. He’s a now (retired) tenured professor. He declined emeritus status.

Smart man!

 

[msc545]

I assumed you could go to the “consumer” section and file as a professional.

https://www.breeze.ca.gov/datamart/complaint.do?applicationId=1

Here, the board says anyone can file a complaint and do it anonymously.

Filing a Complaint - California Board of Psychology

I also had a private consultation with the CA Psych Association ethics line in which the psychologist ethics person and I ended up discussing whether to report another psychologist to the board (not the original ethical issue I’d called about, but came up as a possibility), so it seems to be possible or she would’ve told me there’s no way to.

However, to your point, I think it’s nuanced. If it involves a mutual client, I doubt they’d do anything because they aren’t investigators and the client has to file the complaint in that case—I wonder if they just have a note in their file documenting it in case it corroborates a client’s possible future complaint? Not sure if they document that. I think the only time a psychologist would file a complaint that would be investigated is if you observe an ethical violation firsthand with another psychologist, not hearing via word of mouth from a former client of the offending psychologist.

Very interesting - thanks! This was either not there before when I looked, or I just missed it. I am a little concerned that it is a "consumer complaint form" that I would be directed to since I was not a consumer - hard to tell what they would do with it. Anyway - thanks for directing me to that!

 

[PsyDr]

I don't recall what your question was, but demanding answers will not work with me. Find the answer yourself.

You made an assertion, I asked for evidence. You have avoided backing up your statements, and are hostile to being asked to do so.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

It's really a decisional balance situation here - sure, on the idealistic side of things one should feel empowered and safe in addressing these concerns either formally or informally without fear of being penalized. Alternatively, the more practical side of this is, you can face some consequences. As others have mentioned, there may be things you are not privy to, thus, what you are observing may not be the complete reality of what's going on. Additionally, graduate school really instills a hefty sense of idealism, and this tends to be true for the college environment in general. The world is not pretty, there will always be something that could be improved. There are also things that are just downright harmful that should be addressed more immediately vs. other things. I wonder if the perspective being taken here is that of "the world is ablaze and needs correcting ASAP." You wouldn't be alone if that were the case.

Personally speaking, I am pragmatic - life is filled with BS and unfair crap. It's up to you how much you are willing to tolerate, and once you've reached your threshold, you can opt to do something about it (e.g. directly address the grievances, leave, etc.). For me, I used to be one of "taking on the system," but that got exhausting and futile over the years. Now in my 30's, I have a "just f*** it" mentality for many things. Unless it's affecting patient care, then I usually don't do much about it. Alternatively, one could argue the use of outdated tests is affecting patient care. My work is already stressful and time-consuming enough to spend time addressing petty crap or micro-managing other psychologists' practices.

Lastly, as others have mentioned, should you opt to do "something" about the things you've outlined here, just know there is a possibility for retaliation by those folks. Everything has consequences (whether positive or negative). Reflect on how comfortable you are with the potential consequences of doing something about it vs. not.

 

[quickpsych]

As someone who has made waves in the past (mostly in an employee role) it's about picking and choosing your battles and the pros/cons of whether it's worth rocking the boat. Others are right in saying to basically let sleeping dogs lie here I think.

You might consider bringing these concerns up informally in your program's weekly internship class or group discussion and, as someone else said, get some really good support and feedback from your cohort. However, most good programs are generally protective of the students and may confront your site/facility. While it doesn't seem like any of these things cross the threshold of being enough for a program to pull a student from the site; this site (and the aforementioned defensive supervisors) would likely know you're the one saying something if the program or internship director brings it up to them.

So if you do bring it up in your class or cohort group, maybe present it as an open ended discussion question about the various concerns in a intellectually curious way, rather than "I have these problems at my site." You know your program and your cohort best so will be able to determine if it's something you want to bring up or something you think will cause more problems than solutions.

To me, the part of them being defensive and quick to talk over or ignore the problem is a red flag. That, as others have said, they may be petty enough or have a fragile enough ego where they retaliate or just put the blame on you the trainee, the one with the least power in the arrangement. Then you become the "difficult," "uncooperative, "inflexible," "unteachable," "incompetent" trainee depending on how it's spun. It's ****ty but it happens and without the license and the "checkmark" of approval that said license provides, you don't have much room to be heard the way you think you should be heard as a trainee unfortunately. Sure there's still some "bosses" and "managers" out there that will still act that way to licensed psychologists but at least with the license you have more authority to speak up knowing you don't need that person to sign off on your competency or licensure requirements and can find other opportunities more easily. As a trainee you need others to "vouch" for you whether it's signing off on hours or writing LORs.

At least one one issue you can definitely feel good about: you said they weren't aware there is a new version of the IQ test. Well now they know, leave it at that.

Again as someone who makes waves sometimes, looking back it's amazing to see how often some people admired it or cheered it on, then nothing happened, nothing changed.

 

[msc545]

Well said. I want to reinforce one point - Don't ask for the new (updated by Pearson to make even MORE money for them) IQ test. The damn things are 1423.60 for the kit (WAIS 4).

 

[PsyDr]

No, I am hostile to your rude demands. I don't work for you. If you want to pay me for my time to look up whatever it is that you want, then make me an offer. If not then forego your very important answer, or do it yourself - I feel certain you know how to do research.

Try to understand that I am NOT your research assistant, so stop asking about this unless you are prepared to pay for answers.

1) So you get to make statements without any backing because you said so? But not everyone else?

2) You said you weren’t talking to me, buddy. Based upon my research on you, it looks like you’re over that.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Mod note: Everyone, please be civil and professional and remember that we have an "ignore" function to not see posts from users of your choosing.

 

[borne_before]

Do you know why he declined?

He always viewed it as another instance of academic self-congratulatory masturbation for old people who don’t have anything else enriching to do in retirement.

 

[Peacemaker36]

Part of becoming a seasoned professional is learning how much of what actually happens in the real world occurs in the gray areas. Strive to be perfect, but never let yourself believe that you are.

 

[diceymice07]

I know I'm a month late here, but that's appalling to me they don't have an up-to-date IQ assessment. I'm shocked so many people that replied don't think that's a big deal... I hate the idea of "putting your head down" but that might be the best bet here. You only have a little more than half a year there, and then you can move on to a different site. Best of luck!

 

[WisNeuro]

I know I'm a month late here, but that's appalling to me they don't have an up-to-date IQ assessment. I'm shocked so many people that replied don't think that's a big deal... I hate the idea of "putting your head down" but that might be the best bet here. You only have a little more than half a year there, and then you can move on to a different site. Best of luck!

Curious here, why? Do you think it wouldn't give an accurate IQ? Especially with the slowdown/reversal of the Flynn effect in recent decades? I do agree that they should probably get the new version, but appalling seems a strong sentiment, especially considering the age of some very widely used tests in assessment.

 

[msc545]

I know I'm a month late here, but that's appalling to me they don't have an up-to-date IQ assessment. I'm shocked so many people that replied don't think that's a big deal... I hate the idea of "putting your head down" but that might be the best bet here. You only have a little more than half a year there, and then you can move on to a different site. Best of luck!

It is very easy to spend $4000+ buying a full suite of Wechsler intelligence tests from Pearson. Not everyone wants or is able to do that every time they push an "update".

 

[WisNeuro]

The full WAIS-IV kit is only $1423.60.

 

[PsyDuck90]

The full WAIS-IV kit is only $1423.60.

I think OP is referring to the Woodcock Johnson, since the IV came out in 2014.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think OP is referring to the Woodcock Johnson, since the IV came out in 2014.

Fair, that one is still much cheaper at like $2800 for the cog and ach kits combined. I was just correcting the misinformation about the WAIS being 3x more expensive than it actually is. Critiques are fine, but they should be based in reality.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think OP is referring to the Woodcock Johnson, since the IV came out in 2014.

Additionally, they could be a peds person and referring to the WISC-IV , which also came out in 2014, I believe. That kit is $1400.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Additionally, they could be a peds person and referring to the WISC-IV , which also came out in 2014, I believe. That kit is $1400.

That’s the one I was thinking of and am a little annoyed because I just bought one and now I have to learn how to administer it. Us old dogs just don’t always have time to learn new tricks. 😁

I also wanted to add that you (@WisNeuro) get paid pretty well to dissect poor practices in assessment so when you say something isn’t bad practice, I would tend to give that some weight. That being said I am glad that students are pushing for the best and most current practices as that is what they are supposed to do, they just need to learn to temper it a bit and recognize that 20 years from now they’ll be the ones trying to figure out why they have to buy a new edition of everything every few years.

 

[WisNeuro]

That’s the one I was thinking of and am a little annoyed because I just bought one and now I have to learn how to administer it. Us old dogs just don’t always have time to learn new tricks. 😁

I also wanted to add that you (@WisNeuro) get paid pretty well to dissect poor practices in assessment so when you say something isn’t bad practice, I would tend to give that some weight. That being said I am glad that students are pushing for the best and most current practices as that is what they are supposed to do, they just need to learn to temper it a bit and recognize that 20 years from now they’ll be the ones trying to figure out why they have to buy a new edition of everything every few years.

There's actually a position paper about this very thing out by AACN. A test being old or having a new update does not always make an old test "obsolete." This is where knowing the psychometrics and extant literature come in handy. Also, these updates aren't all that frequent. Heck, for the adult people, WAIS-IV was released in 2008. We're going to get 2 decades+ out of that one in most settings.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

This is a pet peeve. "Old" tests that aren't super old have the most research behind them. Especially by people other than the publishers. This is a good thing. And quite an advantage compared to brand spanking new versions with little to no research, aside from what the publisher does or does not do. Students don't always grasp this and the importance.

 

[Sanman]

There's actually a position paper about this very thing out by AACN. A test being old or having a new update does not always make an old test "obsolete." This is where knowing the psychometrics and extant literature come in handy. Also, these updates aren't all that frequent. Heck, for the adult people, WAIS-IV was released in 2008. We're going to get 2 decades+ out of that one in most settings.

Damn, it was 2008 and WISC-IV was 2003. Thanks for the reminder that I am getting old.

 

[Shiori]

I don't think "older" vs "obsolete" gets explained well during training in a lot of places. They hand us the ethical guidelines, tell us to read them, and hope someone will do the hard part of explaining the nuance and gray of the situation.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think "older" vs "obsolete" doesn't get explained well during training in a lot of places. They hand us the ethical guidelines, tell us to read them, and hope someone will do the hard part of explaining the nuance and gray of the situation.

I am hoping that most of you had a program like mine and had an entire semester class dedicated to ethics?