MD & DO Male Orthopaedic Surgery residency applicants engaged in sexist, racist, misogynistic comments regarding fellow female applicants

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RJ McReady

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This came to my attention recently when a female MS3 was talking about her upcoming electives and plans for applying to ortho. It’s absolutely reprehensible.

I am saddened, but unfortunately, not shocked, by this type of behavior. We all have to do better.
-RJM


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Jeeze, it's not often that a post can make me blow out an involuntary whistle.

She can start by informing HR and also keeping a diary of all interactions with slimeballs.
 
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Wait iirc the ortho spreadsheet is the one that's actively sabotaged by gunners on reddit right?
Ya it is. I’ve been following the ortho spread sheet for a few years now and this has been the worst year. Last year was a similar situation (but not to this extent) so the original mod setup a sheet that you had to register for so they could ban people. That sheet had almost zero activity so someone setup the current anonymous sheet and all hell broke loose again.
 
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I know that all of medicine has issues but why does it seem that ortho is particularly bad?
 
I know that all of medicine has issues but why does it seem that ortho is particularly bad?
It's one of the competitive specialties to Match into, so you get more of a gunner culture and Type A med students that are trying to get into the specialty. But this culture doesn't seem to end in residency. Around 90% of ortho residents are male and stereotypically many of them have the typical "frat bro" personality, which obviously adds additional issues for female applicants.
 
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Ortho people are the ones who were in frats in college. Same culture, same mentality.
 
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Orthopaedic Surgery is still so male dominated that this type of locker room
behavior is still very pervasive. It’s changing but very slowly.
Only through awareness can there be action.
 
Why are you guys making this field-specific? Last I reckon, these types of things have been fairly diffuse.
This has drawn the attention of national Orthopaedic societies including the AAOS. It’s relevant because ortho is very male dominated and discrimination against women is deep-seeded and in need of change.
 
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Huh?
OB/Gyn, Gen Surg, ENT, Also are surgical subspecialties. There is nowhere near the male dominance that is present in Orthopaedics. It may be true that many females don’t want to do ortho, but its myth that ortho requires brute strength. Also, that has nothing to do with the fact that there is this example of unbridled discrimination against females.
 
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Think there is 2 discussion being had here. Male dominance in ortho doesn’t explain why it seems to attract the worse of the worse d*chy medical student/residents
 
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Definitely seems smart to put that stuff out there in public. Definitely the kind of guy that shows good judgement who I would want as a colleague.

Be a real shame if those comments could be URL traced or something. A reeeeeeeaaaaaal shame.
 
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Be a real shame if those comments could be URL traced or something. A reeeeeeeaaaaaal shame.

ThIs has been discussed. It really should be possible. Identify the individuals responsible and hold them accountable. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem that any one person or entity wants to take this on—all I am reading is statements by numerous organizations to the effect of “we condemn this behavior” without offering any solutions on prevention or accountability.
 
ThIs has been discussed. It really should be possible. Identify the individuals responsible and hold them accountable. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem that any one person or entity wants to take this on—all I am reading is statements by numerous organizations to the effect of “we condemn this behavior” without offering any solutions on prevention or accountability.
Well if all they do is condemn the behavior I say we cancel Orthopaedic surgery! No more new knees for granny.

But really this happens in every profession and everywhere. They should condemn it but lets not burn the place down just yet.
 
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Not sure what you mean by burning the place down. I’m just providing information to raise awareness of this issue. And yes although it happens in every profession, it is still wrong.
 
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Well if all they do is condemn the behavior I say we cancel Orthopaedic surgery! No more new knees for granny.

But really this happens in every profession and everywhere. They should condemn it but lets not burn the place down just yet.
“It happens everywhere” is a crappy excuse and why lots of bad behavior goes unchecked.
 
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From the link I see a lot of resident stories. What actually happened on the applicant spreadsheet? Is that visible?

On the matter of trying to track people down. Doubt they will actually do that and risk losing out on their shining star applicants.
 
The ortho "bro-type" days are over. With how competitive it is, its starting to get filled with the Type A gunner nerds. People going on reddit trying t sabotage other people is not "bro-is". Bunch of dorks now
 
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the freak out about that spreadsheet is overwrought given what is posted is anonymous and completely unverifiable. not surprising medtwitter eats this up but maybe slow your roll with "we all have to do better"
 
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Unfortunately, as someone who has followed the spreadsheets for years now, I would advise taking anything said in the chat page for any specialty with very large grain of salt.

Every year there are people who will spend a large amount of time trying to make other people's residency application seasons difficult. Trolling, racism/sexism, fake program reviews or rank lists, deleting or changing comments, etc. It only takes one person and many of these spreadsheets have hundreds of users. It's way easier than zoom bombing an academic conference, and how often does that happen?

Not saying anything about ortho culture or whatever, but I would hesitate before citing an open, easy-to-locate, anonymous spreadsheet as solid evidence for anything.
 
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From the link I see a lot of resident stories. What actually happened on the applicant spreadsheet? Is that visible?

On the matter of trying to track people down. Doubt they will actually do that and risk losing out on their shining star applicants.

I think a lot of it was deleted but I know there were comments on the attractiveness of applicants who are very active on Twitter.
 
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From the link I see a lot of resident stories. What actually happened on the applicant spreadsheet? Is that visible?

On the matter of trying to track people down. Doubt they will actually do that and risk losing out on their shining star applicants.
Then ortho as a specialty would be encouraging toxicity which is deeply disturbing
 
From the link I see a lot of resident stories. What actually happened on the applicant spreadsheet? Is that visible?

On the matter of trying to track people down. Doubt they will actually do that and risk losing out on their shining star applicants.

They won’t be lacking for quality applicants that aren’t racist and/or misogynist.
 
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They won’t be lacking for quality applicants that aren’t racist and/or misogynist.

I am not disagreeing that there aren’t plenty healthy applicants, it’s more to the point that they don’t want to look under the rug and actually see what’s there. So they will do the easy thing of giving lip service on Twitter but no one will get tracked down and reprimanded, I promise you that.
 
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From the link I see a lot of resident stories. What actually happened on the applicant spreadsheet? Is that visible?

On the matter of trying to track people down. Doubt they will actually do that and risk losing out on their shining star applicants.
It was taken down, but there were several discussions about how attractive certain female applicants are, sexist comments about women in ortho, and naming female applicants who they found “annoying” on twitter
 
I saw a few of the comments - I get that people want to blame trolls, but while some might be fake IMO some of the comments clearly showed that the posters were actively following ortho related people/topics on other social media in a way that I wouldnt expect a random troll to do, so I fully believe that they are real applicants (or real med students considering ortho, even if not actively applying).

Like I remember last year ob/gyn and some other spreadsheets got bombed with really vile racist photos of lynchings etc - that screams outside troll to me, there was no obvious connection to ob/gyn in the posts and it was clearly done for shock value. But some of the ****ty ortho sheet posts I’ve seen screenshots of seemed strongly like insider comments.
 
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I saw a few of the comments - I get that people want to blame trolls, but while some might be fake IMO some of the comments clearly showed that the posters were actively following ortho related people/topics on other social media in a way that I wouldnt expect a random troll to do, so I fully believe that they are real applicants (or real med students considering ortho, even if not actively applying).

Like I remember last year ob/gyn and some other spreadsheets got bombed with really vile racist photos of lynchings etc - that screams outside troll to me, there was no obvious connection to ob/gyn in the posts and it was clearly done for shock value. But some of the ****ty ortho sheet posts I’ve seen screenshots of seemed strongly like insider comments.
To think these people are in medicine is depressing
 
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I saw a few of the comments - I get that people want to blame trolls, but while some might be fake IMO some of the comments clearly showed that the posters were actively following ortho related people/topics on other social media in a way that I wouldnt expect a random troll to do, so I fully believe that they are real applicants (or real med students considering ortho, even if not actively applying).

Like I remember last year ob/gyn and some other spreadsheets got bombed with really vile racist photos of lynchings etc - that screams outside troll to me, there was no obvious connection to ob/gyn in the posts and it was clearly done for shock value. But some of the ****ty ortho sheet posts I’ve seen screenshots of seemed strongly like insider comments.
I think this is a really good point and I completely agree. I’ve been following the ortho sheet for several years now, and I remember when all the things happened with the OB sheet last year. But the stuff on the ortho sheet this year was very specific and couldn’t have been from some random troll. It’s unfortunate that these are some of the people applying to ortho
 
I think this is a really good point and I completely agree. I’ve been following the ortho sheet for several years now, and I remember when all the things happened with the OB sheet last year. But the stuff on the ortho sheet this year was very specific and couldn’t have been from some random troll. It’s unfortunate that these are some of the people applying to ortho
Yeah and it’s not that there aren’t ****ty people in other specialties, there totally are, whether or not it shows up on spreadsheets. But this is an opportunity for ortho specifically to take a good hard look at themselves
 
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Stupid facing this stuff in 2021, but it happens - especially in procedural/surgery-type specialties.

We can throw IR in here, too. Many IR residencies are still 100% male and 100% USMD per FREIDA and program pages. Most programs that have women have one, singular, somewhere in the program. I did an away at a program that had a token woman in it - figured I might avoid the sexism a little if they have actually taken women before.

The guys at the program were talking to each other right in front of me, and one of them made the comment about how much he liked it that it was just guys on this particular month as far as the IR and covering DR residents went, and the second agreed and said women just cause drama so he’s happy about it, too.

If you’re actually willing to say that kind of stuff in front of an auditioning female student, it’s got to be a sucky place to work. I’m pretty mad that I wasted an audition there instead of getting an opportunity somewhere healthier, but at least I know to rank this one last.
 
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I definitely believe this stuff happens, heck probably 1/3 of my female patients have some form of trauma history/history of assault. Maybe 1/4 but still, a significant number.

Lets see..a smart, educated woman who likely is intelligent and takes pride in her appearance around a bunch of guys concerned with egos who like to use primitive instinct for reasoning....yeah, not very hard to believe.

I think its getting better compared to how it used to be, but still a lot of room for improvement.
 
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I definitely believe this stuff happens, heck probably 1/3 of my female patients have some form of trauma history/history of assault. Maybe 1/4 but still, a significant number.

Lets see..a smart, educated woman who likely is intelligent and takes pride in her appearance around a bunch of guys concerned with egos who like to use primitive instinct for reasoning....yeah, not very hard to believe.

I think its getting better compared to how it used to be, but still a lot of room for improvement.
It’s about 1/6 women that have been the victim of an attempted or completed rape.
 
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Stupid facing this stuff in 2021, but it happens - especially in procedural/surgery-type specialties.

We can throw IR in here, too. Many IR residencies are still 100% male and 100% USMD per FREIDA and program pages. Most programs that have women have one, singular, somewhere in the program. I did an away at a program that had a token woman in it - figured I might avoid the sexism a little if they have actually taken women before.

The guys at the program were talking to each other right in front of me, and one of them made the comment about how much he liked it that it was just guys on this particular month as far as the IR and covering DR residents went, and the second agreed and said women just cause drama so he’s happy about it, too.

If you’re actually willing to say that kind of stuff in front of an auditioning female student, it’s got to be a sucky place to work. I’m pretty mad that I wasted an audition there instead of getting an opportunity somewhere healthier, but at least I know to rank this one last.
I don't get this toxic bro culture in medicine and i say that as a guy.
 
It’s about 1/6 women that have been the victim of an attempted or completed rape.
sexual assault is most likely underreported though, and my patient population is a bit higher risk for most things. Regardless, even 1/6 is still pretty bad numbers.
 
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Dam my spreadsheet boarding as hell. Only time it gets heated is when someone calls out a program for lack of diversity . Haha need to start checking out the others to see what’s up
 
the freak out about that spreadsheet is overwrought given what is posted is anonymous and completely unverifiable. not surprising medtwitter eats this up but maybe slow your roll with "we all have to do better"
Most of the heinous comments were subsequently deleted either by the poster themselves or the moderators, but specifically, male applicants were commenting on specific female applicants, talking about their physical attributes and “f***ability”, whether or not they deserved a spot in ortho, as well as mentioning some people by name.
I don’t think it’s asking too much for everyone to do better.
 
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This came to my attention recently when a female MS3 was talking about her upcoming electives and plans for applying to ortho. It’s absolutely reprehensible.

I am saddened, but unfortunately, not shocked, by this type of behavior. We all have to do better.
-RJM

I'm not ortho but the title throws all ortho residents under the bus. The twitter feed is about a scumbag attending. Is there a disconnect?
 
I think there's definitely a lot of room for improvement in terms of gender equity and I have seen pockets of chauvinism and can imagine a significant amount is still in existence. Keep in mind those who are the most vocal in spreadsheets will be those who revel in the opportunity to reveal their disgusting traits uninhibited without accountability. As a male, I try to treat women equally and it's never been a concern but I am still learning every day. Just the other day, I mistook my new attending on service for the nurse during pre-rounding (in my defense, she was very young and most attendings don't pre-round) but it was probably hurtful to her nonetheless and triggered some feelings she had to try to suppress and had she not been nice, she could have nitpicked things I did wrong later and held them against me out of spite for it. Women should definitely continue to voice things when they feel them so that men who are care and are interested in changing are at least aware something is (still) very wrong and we should work towards allowing them to voice things without fear of appearing weak, needy, or accusatory. The more awareness, the better and more comfortable women will be in reporting perpetrators. The next phase will be to identify perpetrators earlier and maybe even intervene earlier before it becomes too ingrained. For males, I think the best way to internalize any feedback from women you receive is that you picked up some bad habits from the past that were wrong and went unchecked (not unlike the majority of men) and that you need to participate/share the burden women face everyday in attempting to correct that. It's not a character flaw that you can't overcome.

In my experience, when I have heard of sexual harassment perprators exposed, either the male is hiding in plain site and has already developed a reputation via jokes/rumors that I guess go nowhere (maybe because casual audiences assume if something actually happened it would have been reported and fear misreporting) or it completely comes out of nowhere to the female and she feels gaslit in a way because everyone else's takes on the dude are amazing. In the latter case, it's challenging but what I've seen in these cases is that one woman reporting thing opens the floodgates.

In terms of spreadsheets, they have some helpful tidbits but are mostly toxic and can get addicting because you associate them with that rush when you get an interview invite. I usually checked it once a week and while seeking any information pre-interview and while ranking. Otherwise, your M4 will be infinitely better without them. There's only a few tidbits you need. Take them and leave. You don't need a new social network to get engrossed in.
 
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It’s about 1/6 women that have been the victim of an attempted or completed rape.

I’m sure you understand there are many variant of sexual harassment, sexual intimidation, and sexual assault. Attempted/completed rape is a fraction of that entire spectrum of sexual violence. The numbers for the spectrum of sexual harassment and discrimination, for which the vast majority of the #speakuportho is addressing is far greater than 1 /6 women.
 
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I’m sure you understand there are many variant of sexual harassment, sexual intimidation, and sexual assault. Attempted/completed rape is a fraction of that entire spectrum of sexual violence. The numbers for the spectrum of sexual harassment and discrimination, for which the vast majority of the #speakuportho is addressing is far greater than 1 /6 women.
Didn’t say anything to the contrary.
 
Didn’t say anything to the contrary.

I was just confused why your response to the individual saying 1/4 of women he encountered have had some form of trauma was to say the numbers for attempted/completed rape. Hence my response…
 
I was just confused why your response to the individual saying 1/4 of women he encountered have had some form of trauma was to say the numbers for attempted/completed rape. Hence my response…
Oh gotcha. Yeah I read his post quickly and misread it.
 
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The one about rape in the call room made my skin crawl.
 
I’ll present my experience in orthopedic residency and fellowship and now practice. I trained at a small osteopathic residency with 10 residents. My chief year, 3/10 residents were women. We loved them every bit as much as any of my other residents, they were great and were like our family. Not once I heard a disparaging remark or any obvious discrimination. I’m sure there were isolated incidents that I’m not aware of though.

I also did out rotations at three other programs as a resident, all of which had female residents. They were treated with respect and as equals with their male counterparts as far as I could see. They were all great residents.

I did my trauma fellowship at perhaps the most progressive program in the country. 5/9 of my attendings were women, largest orthopedic department with percentage of female attendings in the country. They were some of the best surgeons I worked with. Also, the residency had many women residents, all of whom were treated well and were great people and residents.

1/5 of my current partners is a women. Exceptionally well trained, great leader, and a badass. She’s our department chair and director of MSK division. I’d have no qualms about her operating on me or my family.

My point here is, while I acknowledge that ortho is a male dominated field with women at somewhat inherit disadvantage, however, in my experience, women in orthopedics are thriving and are great to work with. Obviously it’s a shame with all the comments on the excel sheets and I’m sure sexism/discrimination against women exists in Ortho, it’s likely blown out of proportion in this thread and is likely no different than any other surgical sub specialty IMHO. The places I trained at and at my current workplace, any sort of unprofessionalism/sexism/discrimination/harassment would not be tolerated and immediately checked. You’d be fired and pushed out in no time.
 
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I’ll present my experience in orthopedic residency and fellowship and now practice. I trained at a small osteopathic residency with 10 residents. My chief year, 3/10 residents were women. We loved them every bit as much as any of my other residents, they were great and were like our family. Not once I heard a disparaging remark or any obvious discrimination. I’m sure there were isolated incidents that I’m not aware of though.

I also did out rotations at three other programs as a resident, all of which had female residents. They were treated with respect and as equals with their male counterparts as far as I could see. They were all great residents.

I did my trauma fellowship at perhaps the most progressive program in the country. 5/9 of my attendings were women, largest orthopedic department with percentage of female attendings in the country. They were some of the best surgeons I worked with. Also, the residency had many women residents, all of whom were treated well and were great people and residents.

1/5 of my current partners is a women. Exceptionally well trained, great leader, and a badass. She’s our department chair and director of MSK division. I’d have no qualms about her operating on me or my family.

My point here is, while I acknowledge that ortho is a male dominated field with women at somewhat inherit disadvantage, however, in my experience, women in orthopedics are thriving and are great to work with. Obviously it’s a shame with all the comments on the excel sheets and I’m sure sexism/discrimination against women exists in Ortho, it’s likely blown out of proportion in this thread and is likely no different than any other surgical sub specialty IMHO. The places I trained at and at my current workplace, any sort of unprofessionalism/sexism/discrimination/harassment would not be tolerated and immediately checked. You’d be fired and pushed out in no time.

I don’t think your singular male experience holds anywhere near the amount of weight of actual women in the field who have been testifying to their experiences. I would put money that in all of the stages of your career where you state all the women were treated with respect, each one of those women have a story/experience that opposes your statements.
Not to say any of your programs were malignant/ripe with discrimination or anything of the like… but to make blanket statements that all women all had a wonderful experience through your male lens is simply of little value against the voices of the many women at all stages in the field speaking up.
 
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I don’t think your singular male experience holds anywhere near the amount of weight of actual women in the field who have been testifying to their experiences. I would put money that in all of the stages of your career where you state all the women were treated with respect, each one of those women have a story/experience that opposes your statements.
Not to say any of your programs were malignant/ripe with discrimination or anything of the like… but to make blanket statements that all women all had a wonderful experience through your male lens is simply of little value against the voices of the many women at all stages in the field speaking up.

I’d agree with you and concede that my experience is anecdotal and through my observations. But to paint the entire specialty sexist/misogynist and full of bad actors is also not true. Of course we need to do better.
 
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I’d agree with you and concede that my experience is anecdotal and through my observations. But to paint the entire specialty sexist/misogynist and full of bad actors is also not true. Of course we need to do better.
The “of course we need to do better” line is one that is uttered by people who don’t intend to do anything to make it better or even really think anything needs to change. Not accusing you of that, but that’s what I’ve seen in many different fields. There is an entire Twitter account of women posting horrendous things they’ve had to experience. It is not a small amount of applicants, residents, and attendings. It is a huge number of them. That is a major problem, not just a small “well of course we should do better but it’s not widespread” situation.
 
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