Master's Programs - do they help get you in?

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azcomdiddy said:
Pursue research because you want to. Don't use it as a tool to get into medical school. There are other more efficient routes to getting into medical school. You don't have to obtain a graduate degree.

Absolutely true!

azcomdiddy said:
Those of you who feel they must do complete a thesis oriented MS to get into medical school are sadly misinformed.

Also true, but not as absolute as you make it. My point was that a "thesis MS" is actually no better or worse than a non-thesis one in terms of admission. In fact, a thesis might give you a bit of an "in" as you can obtain a measure of expertise in something. But I do agree with you that a reapplicant has to consider the time it will take versus the benefits.

BTW - I have an MPH, not a "masters thesis". An I had a decent MCAT with a low undergrad GPA.

- H

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azcomdiddy said:
Asking someone to apply to a M.D./Ph.D with a 2.9 undergrad GPA is like asking someone with an 18 MCAT to apply to Harvard and see if they get lucky.

If they (the applicant) holds a large research grant or other large scale project that will travel with them, this is not so implausible. The difficulty is in getting the grant/project.

- H
 
azcomdiddy said:
I was just using his argument against him because he tried to back peddle when I confronted him about his snide remark about how doing a thesis "will teach one to think' which has an elitist connotation and suggests that if you don't do a thesis then you are stupid.

Let me state this again, thesis based Master's programs CAN teach you to think which I think is a good quality for a physician to have!

You are only stupid if you insinuate things about people's comments that aren't there. :p
 
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To all the reapplicants that may have MD/PhD aspirations, don't let anyone discourage you from going this route if that's what you want to do. Trust me if I could go from a <2.0 science GPA, to a Master's in Chemistry from a top 5 program, then to an MD/PhD acceptance, (which I couldn't take), so can you! :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
pathdr2b said:
To all the reapplicants that may have MD/PhD aspirations, don't let anyone discourage you from going this route if that's what you want to do. Trust me if I could go from a <2.0 science GPA, to a Master's in Chemistry from a top 5 program, then to an MD/PhD acceptance, (which I couldn't take), so can you! :thumbup: :thumbup:

And you are only a hypocrite if you don't follow your own advice. I never insinuated that one shouldn't pursue the M.D./Ph.D if that person was genuinely interested in doing so. I only take issues with suggesting it as means of getting into medical school if an admission to medical school is all you seek. There are people who earn an MS first. Then they apply to the M.D./PhD program with the hope there will far less applicants for those reserved spots. This can be a very idea. Some people may spend as long as 4 years doing research which doesn't include 4 years of medical. That is 8 total years for one to get an M.D./Ph.D and generally students spend three years doing research. That is a long time for someone who essentially just wanted to earn his M.D. Path, I certainly hope you didn't take the M.D./Ph.D opportunity as a back door to medical school. One last thing, medical school teaches one how to think. You will find that out in a few years.
 
azcomdiddy said:
And you are only a hypocrite if you don't follow your own advice. I never insinuated that one shouldn't pursue the M.D./Ph.D if that person was genuinely interested in doing so. I only take issues with suggesting it as means of getting into medical school if an admission to medical school is all you seek. There are people who earn an MS first. Then they apply to the M.D./PhD program with the hope there will far less applicants for those reserved spots. This can be a very idea. Some people may spend as long as 4 years doing research which doesn't include 4 years of medical. That is 8 total years for one to get an M.D./Ph.D and generally students spend three years doing research. That is a long time for someone who essentially just wanted to earn his M.D. Path, I certainly hope you didn't take the M.D./Ph.D opportunity as a back door to medical school. One last thing, medical school teaches one how to think. You will find that out in a few years.

1) I'll be starting work on my PhD at Hopkins this Fall, so there's your hypocite theory down the drain.

2) Once you get to be my age (late 30's) you tend not to care a **** HOW people think you got to where you are. If someone LIKE YOU wants to think that the only reason I have a shot at a school like Hopkins because of my race and not the fact that I have 4 NIH abstracts/papers in the works/completed, then that's fine by me. IF I needed a backdoor to get anywhere in life that would be cool with me as well. Because no matter what door, back door, climbing in through the chimney, digging a path underground, I take to get into a situation, you bet your a$$ I'll be walking out through the FRONT door with my head held high and degrees in hand.

So by your own asinine logic, how in the he!! can a reapplicant use MD/PhD as a back door to med school? A backdoor to medical school at Johns Hopklins??? That's the dumbest **** I've ever heard. And by the way, what do you know about getting accepted to an MD program?
 
Wow, I would guess the short answer to the original question of this thread would be "yes, they do help."

But, I was wondering...if one did an MS in conservation ecology- would that help for MD admissions? I'm curious because I moved from an island with one college that offered one MS and this was it. I wouldn't mind doing conservation ecology-it is something I feel to be worthwhile-but how would that help with med school admissions? I thought it was getting a little too off track the med school route-so I didn't opt for it. Perhaps one could put a spin of "healthy environment=healthy people" on it?

Anyone have comments-or are people not talking to each other any more on this thread? :p
 
Path, stop entertaining these young bucks!! They have nothing on you and you have cures to find and lives to save!! It will all come to pass when you receive your Nobel prize. Pish Posh to these kiddies!!
 
does anyone know how adcoms possibly look at one-years masters programs in engineering (non-thesis). i am an engineering undergrad, and i would much rather take an extra year of applied sciences than basic sciences if i had to choose, but many of the ones i was looking at are VERY expensive. (45,000-60,000 for a full year!)
 
whattodowithmys said:
does anyone know how adcoms possibly look at one-years masters programs in engineering (non-thesis). i am an engineering undergrad, and i would much rather take an extra year of applied sciences than basic sciences if i had to choose, but many of the ones i was looking at are VERY expensive. (45,000-60,000 for a full year!)


I really wouldn't take a masters program just to take one. However, if you really want to take the engineering masters, I really don't think the admissions committee would look badly at such a decision as long as you do well. I would just call the schools that you are interested in and ask to see if they have a preference on types of masters degrees. I am sure that they would gladly let you know if there is a problem with you taking an engineering masters. I knew several people that did not take the typical biology/physiology masters programs, and they were just fine when it came to applying. You might as well broaden yourself in different areas before you get in because then it will be back to the typical science type learning experiences.

A reason I could see for it being a problem is if you did badly in your pre-med requirements or some science classes. Then you may want to seriously look into a biology masters degree so that you can improve your application. There are some good non-thesis one year biology or physiology programs if you look into it -- and I am sure that you could find some for a little bit smaller price tag then $45,000-60,000.
:thumbup: :luck:
 
You all need to calm down a little. It's scary that some of you are going to be doctors. One of your pacients wills say something to make you mad and you'll probably end up stabing them with your scalple
 
chi_town1 said:
I'm thinking about doing a year long Master's program next year. Any thoughts? Does it help boost the application? As a post-bac with a limited science background (other than the pre-req's), I thought this might help. Thoughts?


I am in the process of applying and I have a master's degree in epidemiology. I don't know that it will be the one thing in my application that will guarantee me a spot, but I am happy that I got it. I feel that regardless of whether or not I am accepted into medical school this is a useful degree that I can definately use. I chose epidemiology over a MPH for a couple of reasons. The main reason is that the MPH is a very general degree in which you will learn a lot in general, but rarely anything useful in particular. Epidemiology teaches a lot of very specific useful skills such as how to set up studies, how to conduct them, and how to analyze the data.

However, in getting a master's degree make sure you get it from an institution that has a well respected name if you want it to hold any weight in your application. (ie, in public health go to Johns Hopkins (ranked 1), Harvard or UNC (tied for second)) Also, make sure you take advantage of any research opportunities that come your way, you may just be able to get a publication out of it.
 
gujuDoc said:
FoughtFyr,

Congrats to you and yes you may be a living example of getting in, but as I said, what the rules are in illinois is different from Florida and other states.


Where I go to school a 3.7 Sci GPA and overall GPA is what they consider academic honors and good for scholarship receiving. Extracurriculars or no extracurriculars, they look more at GPA first for preliminary screening then at other things.

My admissions Director even told us that most people had a 3.6-3.7 avg AVG GPA and 30 Avg MCAT this year and in past years. They won't even look at us with a 2.8 undergrad even if we have a 4.0 MPH, unless we take some postbac science classes to get our gpa back to 3.0 minimum in both science and overall. Which is what I'm working toward figuring out right now, by hoping my senior year and a some extra chemistry courses. Then I'm planning on getting a Masters in microbiology and/or going to G'towns SMP program in DC if I can get in, While applying to medicals school.



the University of Illinois at Chicago is a top school. I can't think of a better midwestern school other than Mayo. 3.6\3.7 and 30 MCAT is easily if not too low for entering chicago schools
 
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acrobat said:
the University of Illinois at Chicago is a top school. I can't think of a better midwestern school other than Mayo.

what are you talking about? what about Northewstern? UChicago? UMich? Case Western?
 
exmike said:
what are you talking about? what about Northewstern? UChicago? UMich? Case Western?

Blah I'm mixing up University of Illinois at Chicago and U of Chicago. Sorry for the digression

btw- that quote about the sniper is funny
 
mcataz said:
I know too many people who did a Masters in Public Health and didn't get in. And from one adcom I spoke with, he didn't have much respect for the MPH.

If you do a Masters, do what they call a "Special Masters" which is a non thesis related class and exam based Masters program. I wouldn't encourage you to do a Masters program that is heavily research oriented especially since research classes are known by adcoms to be instant A's.

i just wanted to give you my 2 cents. my undergrad GPA was really poor. So, i was told that i should think about a master's degree, but not in Public Health, instead to do it in what they called "hard science" degree. Mind you, I am NOT saying that I think an MPH degree is any easier, this is just what I was told by an adcom committee member at one medical school that I had applied to.

Anyway, I got a Master's in Physiology, and am now in my first year of medical school. I hope this helps the person asking the question of whether to do the Master's or not. I definately believe that that is a big part of why I got in. GOOD LUCK to you.
 
I wanted to do a MPH because I just took an intro to public health class and I really liked it. Im trying to do the program concurrently with my undergrad education during my senior year of study but I didn't realize programs were so expensive (24k?). I don't need the degree since my gpa is fine (3.9) and I plan on doing well on the mcats but I really like public health. Do you learn much about public health in med school?

The degree wont slow me down if all goes as planned. I was going to have a year off after college and I can finish my degree during this time. At UCLA the program can be taken one weekend a month so Ill still have time for everything else during the year off. Any reason I shouldnt go for the MPH if I really like it?
 
SMC2UCLA2_ said:
I wanted to do a MPH because I just took an intro to public health class and I really liked it. Im trying to do the program concurrently with my undergrad education during my senior year of study but I didn't realize programs were so expensive (24k?). I don't need the degree since my gpa is fine (3.9) and I plan on doing well on the mcats but I really like public health. Do you learn much about public health in med school?

The degree wont slow me down if all goes as planned. I was going to have a year off after college and I can finish my degree during this time. At UCLA the program can be taken one weekend a month so Ill still have time for everything else during the year off. Any reason I shouldnt go for the MPH if I really like it?

No, its not going to hurt your medical school application as long as you don't neglect other important aspects- ie, LORs, ECs, MCAT. I say do it if its what you love.
 
I think everyone has made excellent points. A theme can be produced based on these posts and that is "It all depends."

If I was a reapplicant, I would target the medical school that I have the best chance of being accepted to, and in most cases this would be your state school(s). I would speak to their director of admissions or another admissions counselor and ask for their advice. Every medical school is different. Every admissions committee weighs criteria differently. And yes, these adcoms will tell you what path you should pursue. They might be vague at first but you would be supriised how some will come out and diss the MPH or a postbac etc and favor another process. Some schools may tell you to get your GPA above a 3.0 regardless of your graduate GPA. Other schools may encourage you to pursue formal graduate education.

If your targeted medical school accepted 3-4 students with low GPA's and hight MPH gpa's then that should clue you in on what you should do. If your adcom discourages you from pursuing an MPH, that should also tell you that pursuing an MPH isn't the best strategy.

These general trends and individual's story is meaningless. It doesn't matter if Bob's school loves MPH grads if your school doesn't and vice versa.

Lastly, most adcoms will pretty much tell you where to do your postbac, masters, MPH etc if you have a lengthy enough conversation with them. I know at the University of Arizona, they strongly encourage the postbac at ASU if you live in Phoenix or their own at the U of A in Tucson. Nearly every medical school accepts 5 or so students who had a weak start to their academic career and tried to make up for it through other means. This is not uncommon for medical schools. What you have to find out is which programs did these "comeback kids" hail from. Usually, these students come from local programs or the adcom can tell you where these students did their postbac or Masters.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Speak to the adcom of the school you have the best chance of being accepted to. So stop sitting on your butt and reading studentdoctor all day and do something about it. Muster up some courage and set up a meeting with the adcom of the school you have the best chance of being accepted to.

One last piece of Great Advice If you can't get into a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school, consider one of the 3 Caribbean schools SGU, Ross and AUC.(don't look at any others besides these). Contrary to the Carib bashing on SDN, it's a perfectly normal process. Some SDN students feel the need to bash the Carib process because it means you can't be a dermatologist or an opthalmologist. Fair enough, but it's nearly as hard getting these fields as U.S. M.D. graduate so you may not get anyway. Yes, it's not sexy to go Carib but I wouldn't waste 2-3 years reapplying just to start medical school. Think about it. You can be done with basic sciences in 2 years by the time you get accepted into medical school. And if primary care was your goal, it doesn't matter where you go to medical school. And if you are a good test taker, Carib graduates who rock the USMLE land competitive fields like surgery etc. Sure, they may land surgery in BFE or the ghetto but it's still surgery.
 
novacek88 said:
I think everyone has made excellent points. A theme can be produced based on these posts and that is "It all depends."

If I was a reapplicant, I would target the medical school that I have the best chance of being accepted to, and in most cases this would be your state school(s). I would speak to their director of admissions or another admissions counselor and ask for their advice. Every medical school is different. Every admissions committee weighs criteria differently. And yes, these adcoms will tell you what path you should pursue. They might be vague at first but you would be supriised how some will come out and diss the MPH or a postbac etc and favor another process. Some schools may tell you to get your GPA above a 3.0 regardless of your graduate GPA. Other schools may encourage you to pursue formal graduate education.

If your targeted medical school accepted 3-4 students with low GPA's and hight MPH gpa's then that should clue you in on what you should do. If your adcom discourages you from pursuing an MPH, that should also tell you that pursuing an MPH isn't the best strategy.

These general trends and individual's story is meaningless. It doesn't matter if Bob's school loves MPH grads if your school doesn't and vice versa.

Lastly, most adcoms will pretty much tell you where to do your postbac, masters, MPH etc if you have a lengthy enough conversation with them. I know at the University of Arizona, they strongly encourage the postbac at ASU if you live in Phoenix or their own at the U of A in Tucson. Nearly every medical school accepts 5 or so students who had a weak start to their academic career and tried to make up for it through other means. This is not uncommon for medical schools. What you have to find out is which programs did these "comeback kids" hail from. Usually, these students come from local programs or the adcom can tell you where these students did their postbac or Masters.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Speak to the adcom of the school you have the best chance of being accepted to. So stop sitting on your butt and reading studentdoctor all day and do something about it. Muster up some courage and set up a meeting with the adcom of the school you have the best chance of being accepted to.

One last piece of Great Advice If you can't get into a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school, consider one of the 3 Caribbean schools SGU, Ross and AUC.(don't look at any others besides these). Contrary to the Carib bashing on SDN, it's a perfectly normal process. Some SDN students feel the need to bash the Carib process because it means you can't be a dermatologist or an opthalmologist. Fair enough, but it's nearly as hard getting these fields as U.S. M.D. graduate so you may not get anyway. Yes, it's not sexy to go Carib but I wouldn't waste 2-3 years reapplying just to start medical school. Think about it. You can be done with basic sciences in 2 years by the time you get accepted into medical school. And if primary care was your goal, it doesn't matter where you go to medical school. And if you are a good test taker, Carib graduates who rock the USMLE land competitive fields like surgery etc. Sure, they may land surgery in BFE or the ghetto but it's still surgery.


My adcom told me that I didn't need to do anything. So I asked, well why didn't I get in. He jsut told me to take an interview class or some communications classes. I just kinda said ok- but I already took two comm classes and two lit classes on college and got As. Not to mention 35 credits of spanish that might be factored into communication skills. frustating. He's just like, just do whatever you want for a year- make sure you keep getting health care experience though (obvious)
 
Hey, just wanted to speak out. I had a very bad undergrad track record!!Repeated courses, Withdrawls, Semesters off...you name it... BUT when I knew I had to go to med school I went back and ROCKED a Masters of Science in biomedical sciences (almost a 4.0) EVERY medical adcom I talked to loved the fact that I realized I wanted to go into medicine and I went back to Grad school to show them whats up! I was accepted this year!!
 
SMC2UCLA2_ said:
I wanted to do a MPH because I just took an intro to public health class and I really liked it. Im trying to do the program concurrently with my undergrad education during my senior year of study but I didn't realize programs were so expensive (24k?). I don't need the degree since my gpa is fine (3.9) and I plan on doing well on the mcats but I really like public health. Do you learn much about public health in med school?

The degree wont slow me down if all goes as planned. I was going to have a year off after college and I can finish my degree during this time. At UCLA the program can be taken one weekend a month so Ill still have time for everything else during the year off. Any reason I shouldnt go for the MPH if I really like it?

If you love the MPH, then do it. It'll give you a great experience and something special to talk about during interviews. That was my experience. And the critical thinking skills will come in handy during med school.

On another note, I cant believe this MPH vs MS debate is still raging!
 
Hi,

Here is my experience. I had three US med interviews so far and each time my Masters (MSc) was mentioned as a HUGE asset. Masters degrees do make a difference. Just make sure you do something you like. If you like public health then do an MPH not an MSc. Also it was pretty evident during my interviews that the MCAT is really important in the US. It seems like the combination of a good MCAT and a Masters degree made me really competitive to get into medical school in the US (this does not apply to Canada). I was just informed of this site so I am not sure if this has been discussed already (good MCAT + Masters makes you a competitive applicant).

All the best of luck to everyone...
 
It's starting to look like I will need to apply to schools again, so I was wondering: has anyone had experience (positive) with the med school oriented one year specialized masters programs such as that offered by BU? I'm looking in the northeast. Is there still time to apply to such programs for next fall, and do you need a GRE if you have decent MCAT's already?

I've heard conflicting advice regarding how much such a program would help me - this is what I've tried so far.

undergrad sci GPA 3.0, overall 3.2, MCAT 39 junior year
-unsuccessful application 1
two years full time research while working part time in a clinic and taking post bacc courses at night. GPA for these 6 courses 3.9, retook expired MCAT - 38.
-unsuccessful application 2 pending?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
 
lidguy said:
It's starting to look like I will need to apply to schools again, so I was wondering: has anyone had experience (positive) with the med school oriented one year specialized masters programs such as that offered by BU? I'm looking in the northeast. Is there still time to apply to such programs for next fall, and do you need a GRE if you have decent MCAT's already?

I've heard conflicting advice regarding how much such a program would help me - this is what I've tried so far.

undergrad sci GPA 3.0, overall 3.2, MCAT 39 junior year
-unsuccessful application 1
two years full time research while working part time in a clinic and taking post bacc courses at night. GPA for these 6 courses 3.9, retook expired MCAT - 38.
-unsuccessful application 2 pending?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Honestly, I don't know how you haven't gotten into a school already. Spread your application around to a bunch of schools and apply early. I finally got into a school this year after two years of unsuccessful applications and your numbers are better than mine. However, I feel that my master's program (and its reputation) got my foot in the door for some interviews. I think an SMP program might be beneficial to boost your GPA.
 
Nice MCAT lidguy...not sure what a post bac is? But your GPA for that sounds good...I am surprised you have not received an interview.

If it doesn't work out this year, get the Masters and I am sure things will be much better for you next year.
 
Will a med school accept you if your grad program overlaps with med school? I don't see why not. I'm contemplating doing a MBA program through one of the several University-affiliated distance/online programs, but if I got in this year I'd still have about 5-6 months of the program left after matriculation.

I don't doubt my ability to do it, just if I would be accepted given this circumstance.
 
Im in the middle of a Masters program and have a decent grad GPA, well above me Undergrad. It didn't help me one bit. Rejected from every school I applied to. Only one interview. 38 on the MCAT. research, volunteer exp, and extracurriculars. Only negative was my grades.
 
Steiner said:
Im in the middle of a Masters program and have a decent grad GPA, well above me Undergrad. It didn't help me one bit. Rejected from every school I applied to. Only one interview. 38 on the MCAT. research, volunteer exp, and extracurriculars. Only negative was my grades.

Wow, that's terrible/amazing. Did you only apply to top schools?
 
MrTee said:
Wow, that's terrible/amazing. Did you only apply to top schools?


Nope; my state school, UConn, Rochester, and SUNY Buffalo. Couldn't afford any others
 
camstah said:
well, actually the MPH i did wasn't a research related masters....a lot of public health masters will allow you a masters degree for professionals, which means that it's not academic, it's meant to be used in the real world....and whoever the adcom is who doesn't have any respect for the public health degree is jsut showing how ignorant he/she truly is....doctors dont know everything, although some think they do.....


Hi do you know of any Master's in Public Health that are not reseach oriented?
 
Ok...

Im a chump.

Here is the story:

In 2000, I was accepted into osteopathic medical school. I had taken the MCAT a year ago without having taken most of the typical prerequisites, and scored a 21. I remember thinking to myself, "what am I doing taking this test, i have never seen most of the material here!" I have an aunt and two uncles who are MD doctors, but the DO title did not (and mostly still does not) matter to me.

The thing that kept playing on my mind was I had just gotten a C in organic chemistry, and online no less. I invested a total of approximately 14 hours into the entire class, that is, 2 hours enrolling and getting ready for the class, and 12 hours studying and taking tests. The entire 12 hours was an all night, no sleep marathon, on a cold Monday in December. I had no organic chemistry knowledge previously, but the design of the class, and fast research allowed me to pass an entire semester of organic chemistry in one night. Having taken 3 tests and a final, I was finished by 6am that next morning, and ready to go to my electrical engineering job in two hours.

This was really only the beginning to an amazingly easy ride into the osteopathic world of medicine. I found that without trying, I could slip in under their radar, and additionally get a full ride in achieving something that I thought I had wanted to do since I was five. I thought it was all a part of the life of that allowed me to be accepted into the high IQ society, Mensa, where if you could think pretty fast then people thought you were something special even if you were a lazy bum doing nothing to better society, much like myself.

So the school year started as I had expected, lectures all the time, and a test in a few weeks. Well as was my typical routine, I would not study. In fact I would wait until the night before the exam to do any studying at all. I manage to pass my tests with a typical score of 75-80%, getting near perfect scores in the subject of pathology that was considered to be so hard for everyone, so I was not too worried about trying any harder. It was bothering me somewhat, that I am in this to handle the life or death health choices for many people, and I was taking this all so lightly. However, my first final exam I did not even bother to study for and I failed. It was a complete surprise to me as were the next few months where this exact process repeated.

I left feeling surprised and hurt, partly feeling mad at the school, but really I knew it was my own fault. In some way, I was happy to leave, there were a number of small things that happened that encouraged me to not try, and I wasn't learning like I should. I liked the people, the material was very interesting, I got along with everyone very well. I was even the President two clubs.

In the following weeks I realized I had to wake up and take notice of what had occurred, or even if I never fulfill my dream, I will go through life not doing my best, not enjoying life.

So, I set up a plan, in painful consideration of my faults but also my strengths, with goals I decided I must achieve if I were to even consider going back to school. First, I decided I needed to find my driving force in pursuing this pathway. This is the reason why I wanted to do this at all, I knew I had felt it a number of times, but this had to be concrete to me, and make me want to try hard, and do very, very well. Second was to take a complete set of prerequisites this time, and do not slouch on this as my previous school actually allowed, by getting straight A's in all new courses. Medical school requires extreme dedication and if I could not get A's in these simple classes then how could I reasonably expect to do well in life or death situations that require fast and most importantly accurate thinking? Third was to study for and retake the MCAT. I decided I must far surpass the average for acceptance to satisfy my personal resolve. Only meeting averages or just passing is how I used to operate, and this is how I run my life no longer.

Now, 4 years after I started, I have achieved a straight A record on my new classes, and a 33 on the MCAT. I became certified as a paramedic and have logged several thousand hours rushing to literally save people's lives. This was most important to me, because I feel I have gained a truly invaluable experience in this time as a paramedic, giving me the spirit and motivation I had only previously seen on occasion. In addition, I continued my work as an Electrical Engineer and received my PE license, however, this only managed to further my realization that work as an engineer is not what I have enjoyed, it is not what I felt a strong calling to do in life.

My past experiences have been that of someone who had life very easy and was never pushed. I felt like getting into osteopathic medical school was something that was simply handed to me, and I never felt encouraged to try. I have been handed scholarship after scholarship, opportunity after opportunity, all just simply handed to me, and that part of my life has been nearly meaningless in helping me or helping others in this amazing journey we call life. I have learned a great deal in the past four years, and can honestly assure you, but most importantly know in myself, that I will no longer be lackadaisical in what I do. Life is something you get to play with for only a few fleeting moments, and then it is gone. I have chosen my present path because I know it to be something dear to my heart, and I feel very challenged and motivated from within to pursue this further.

So I guess what I am asking, is this dream even possible after all of this time, am I just kidding myself even now?? Will any MD school let me in its doors with my history??
 
I think you should talk to admissions officer from different schools and see what they say before wasting your money applying.
You story is encouraging and I'm sure someone on admissions committee somewhere will agree with me.
Good luck and God Bless!!!


planningMD said:
Ok...

Im a chump.

Here is the story:

In 2000, I was accepted into osteopathic medical school. I had taken the MCAT a year ago without having taken most of the typical prerequisites, and scored a 21. I remember thinking to myself, "what am I doing taking this test, i have never seen most of the material here!" I have an aunt and two uncles who are MD doctors, but the DO title did not (and mostly still does not) matter to me.

The thing that kept playing on my mind was I had just gotten a C in organic chemistry, and online no less. I invested a total of approximately 14 hours into the entire class, that is, 2 hours enrolling and getting ready for the class, and 12 hours studying and taking tests. The entire 12 hours was an all night, no sleep marathon, on a cold Monday in December. I had no organic chemistry knowledge previously, but the design of the class, and fast research allowed me to pass an entire semester of organic chemistry in one night. Having taken 3 tests and a final, I was finished by 6am that next morning, and ready to go to my electrical engineering job in two hours.

This was really only the beginning to an amazingly easy ride into the osteopathic world of medicine. I found that without trying, I could slip in under their radar, and additionally get a full ride in achieving something that I thought I had wanted to do since I was five. I thought it was all a part of the life of that allowed me to be accepted into the high IQ society, Mensa, where if you could think pretty fast then people thought you were something special even if you were a lazy bum doing nothing to better society, much like myself.

So the school year started as I had expected, lectures all the time, and a test in a few weeks. Well as was my typical routine, I would not study. In fact I would wait until the night before the exam to do any studying at all. I manage to pass my tests with a typical score of 75-80%, getting near perfect scores in the subject of pathology that was considered to be so hard for everyone, so I was not too worried about trying any harder. It was bothering me somewhat, that I am in this to handle the life or death health choices for many people, and I was taking this all so lightly. However, my first final exam I did not even bother to study for and I failed. It was a complete surprise to me as were the next few months where this exact process repeated.

I left feeling surprised and hurt, partly feeling mad at the school, but really I knew it was my own fault. In some way, I was happy to leave, there were a number of small things that happened that encouraged me to not try, and I wasn't learning like I should. I liked the people, the material was very interesting, I got along with everyone very well. I was even the President two clubs.

In the following weeks I realized I had to wake up and take notice of what had occurred, or even if I never fulfill my dream, I will go through life not doing my best, not enjoying life.

So, I set up a plan, in painful consideration of my faults but also my strengths, with goals I decided I must achieve if I were to even consider going back to school. First, I decided I needed to find my driving force in pursuing this pathway. This is the reason why I wanted to do this at all, I knew I had felt it a number of times, but this had to be concrete to me, and make me want to try hard, and do very, very well. Second was to take a complete set of prerequisites this time, and do not slouch on this as my previous school actually allowed, by getting straight A's in all new courses. Medical school requires extreme dedication and if I could not get A's in these simple classes then how could I reasonably expect to do well in life or death situations that require fast and most importantly accurate thinking? Third was to study for and retake the MCAT. I decided I must far surpass the average for acceptance to satisfy my personal resolve. Only meeting averages or just passing is how I used to operate, and this is how I run my life no longer.

Now, 4 years after I started, I have achieved a straight A record on my new classes, and a 33 on the MCAT. I became certified as a paramedic and have logged several thousand hours rushing to literally save people's lives. This was most important to me, because I feel I have gained a truly invaluable experience in this time as a paramedic, giving me the spirit and motivation I had only previously seen on occasion. In addition, I continued my work as an Electrical Engineer and received my PE license, however, this only managed to further my realization that work as an engineer is not what I have enjoyed, it is not what I felt a strong calling to do in life.

My past experiences have been that of someone who had life very easy and was never pushed. I felt like getting into osteopathic medical school was something that was simply handed to me, and I never felt encouraged to try. I have been handed scholarship after scholarship, opportunity after opportunity, all just simply handed to me, and that part of my life has been nearly meaningless in helping me or helping others in this amazing journey we call life. I have learned a great deal in the past four years, and can honestly assure you, but most importantly know in myself, that I will no longer be lackadaisical in what I do. Life is something you get to play with for only a few fleeting moments, and then it is gone. I have chosen my present path because I know it to be something dear to my heart, and I feel very challenged and motivated from within to pursue this further.

So I guess what I am asking, is this dream even possible after all of this time, am I just kidding myself even now?? Will any MD school let me in its doors with my history??
 
JKDMed said:
Will a med school accept you if your grad program overlaps with med school? I don't see why not. I'm contemplating doing a MBA program through one of the several University-affiliated distance/online programs, but if I got in this year I'd still have about 5-6 months of the program left after matriculation.

I don't doubt my ability to do it, just if I would be accepted given this circumstance.

you may have to consider deferring for a year to finish the MBA.
 
I have seen a lot of debate on here about MPH versus MS, even some people that have had one of each. But what about doing two MS degrees???

My situation is this: Fair undergrad performance (3.4 overal and 3.3 BCMP) witha degree in biology (minor in religion). Then I did a MS in Biology (GPA 3.88) with plenty of research and teaching experience. After that I worked for 3 years in a clinical laboratory to gain health care exposure and am now half way through a second MS in Biomedical sciences at a local medical school (to gain additional medical exposure and brush up on some subjects) with a GPA of 4.0. MCAT is decent (30R). I feel pretty good about my chances since now I at least have a lot to talk about during interviews. Anyone with similar background?
 
where did u go to grad school that helped so much?
 
where did u go to grad school that helped so much?

Just FYI Haemulon wrote the previous post last year. I think that he was actually successful in getting into med school because I recall a thread celebrating it. Drexel, was it?

Actually my story is very similar to his. Undergrad GPA about 3.5, BCMP only 3.1 though. Grad GPA slightly lower (but not sure what it was anymore). I have a Master's, 3 Bachelor's, and worked in a clinical lab before med school (actually I still do). The only thing that makes me a little bit different than most of those who use the re-applicant forum is that I actually declined my acceptances while holding out for an MD/PhD spot.

Nonetheless, doing a Master's didn't help me in the slightest in the eyes of the adcoms. The indicators that they use for success in med school had nothing to do with my graduate training. It was useful for MD/PhD programs, on the other hand, but not the MD part. (Full disclosure: my MCAT was only a 32R, too low for MD/PhD at most schools.)

I would never recommend a grad degree with the specific intent of thinking that it's going to impress a med school adcom. If you like the work (such as the research you'd do in an MS program) or want to use it later in life as a professional tool (MPH or MBA), then go for it. However, keep in mind that it won't alter your undergrad GPA or help you with your MCAT which are going to be the primary thing that the adcoms look at in medical school regardless of how much advanced coursework you have or how many degrees you've earned.
 
Just FYI Haemulon wrote the previous post last year. I think that he was actually successful in getting into med school because I recall a thread celebrating it. Drexel, was it?

Actually my story is very similar to his. Undergrad GPA about 3.5, BCMP only 3.1 though. Grad GPA slightly lower (but not sure what it was anymore). I have a Master's, 3 Bachelor's, and worked in a clinical lab before med school (actually I still do). The only thing that makes me a little bit different than most of those who use the re-applicant forum is that I actually declined my acceptances while holding out for an MD/PhD spot.

Nonetheless, doing a Master's didn't help me in the slightest in the eyes of the adcoms. The indicators that they use for success in med school had nothing to do with my graduate training. It was useful for MD/PhD programs, on the other hand, but not the MD part. (Full disclosure: my MCAT was only a 32R, too low for MD/PhD at most schools.)

I would never recommend a grad degree with the specific intent of thinking that it's going to impress a med school adcom. If you like the work (such as the research you'd do in an MS program) or want to use it later in life as a professional tool (MPH or MBA), then go for it. However, keep in mind that it won't alter your undergrad GPA or help you with your MCAT which are going to be the primary thing that the adcoms look at in medical school regardless of how much advanced coursework you have or how many degrees you've earned.

Having served on an adcom, I agree with you - to a point. There will be some (usually small) consideration given for completion of a graduate school program. You are correct however, that this will almost never be sufficent to overcome a poor undergraduate GPA. As an example, we gave 67 out of 100 points for undergrad GPA and MCAT combined (in a complex formula). There were 27 points available for "life experiences", diversity, etc. A completed Master's program (SMPs were excluded) would gain you an automatic 3 points and a PhD. was worth 5. But, those couldn't push you over the 27 total available. Bottom line, a better GPA would trump a Master's hands down.

So, what to do? The "all in" bet is to do a post-bacc that is not a Master's but is comprised of undergrad classes. That will boost your undergrad GPA. Unfortunately, if you are not ultimately successful at getting in, you've wasted your money. The same can be said of the SMPs - but I think these are even less useful, except to get in to the affiliated school. The "safe bet" is the MPH or MS because these will leave you career options if you don't get in and may open some doors in residency and the eventual job hunt if you do get in, but they have the least positive effect on your application.

Is that clear as mud?

- H
 
You may want to browse the post-bacc forum for more threads on this subject.. but as a successful reapplicant who will finish a master's program this semester, I believe my performance in this program (coupled with retaking the mcat) led to my acceptances this year.

In deciding between post-bacc and formal master's program, one thing you should consider is how competitive your gpa is.. I tend to think if you're below a 3.0, you might want to do a post-bacc because those grades will be applied to your undergrad gpa in amcas. conversely, your grades from a master's program will be applied separately to a graduate gpa. Some schools (it depends on the school) may only look at your undergrad gpa if they do a preliminary screening. My gpa was a 3.3, and I was told by several admissions folks that the masters route was best for me. I also chose masters over post-bacc because having a bona fide degree (instead of a certificate) would be helpful in case I didn't get in and had to apply for a job.

Regardless of what you choose, it's important to do really well, as adcoms place a high value on candidates showing improvement and determination..

abbeacon

Hi abbeacon, I'm a senior undergrad and my gpa is a 3.76 at a private institution, which I was told by some other premeds isn't too competitive for NY schools like NYU or Columbia (which are the schools I want to apply to), so I was planning on going to grad school for an masters in biology or medical bio, what I wanted to know, is if I'm going to increase my chances to get into med school by doing a masters or just apply as undergrad, and also what a post bacc is? Help!
Thanks in advance
 
Hi abbeacon, I'm a senior undergrad and my gpa is a 3.76 at a private institution, which I was told by some other premeds isn't too competitive for NY schools like NYU or Columbia (which are the schools I want to apply to), so I was planning on going to grad school for an masters in biology or medical bio, what I wanted to know, is if I'm going to increase my chances to get into med school by doing a masters or just apply as undergrad, and also what a post bacc is? Help!
Thanks in advance

I would disregard whatever these "other premeds" are telling you, because a 3.76 gpa will not exclude you from any medical school. If you can kick out a 34-36 mcat, you should be fine for those schools with that gpa. A master's program would be a total waste of your time.
 
I applied to med school twice and did not get any interviews. I reapplied after one year of graduate school, getting 8 interviews offers and accepted at multiple schools. So I think any Masters work will help if you get good grades in the courses. I think the graduate school courses I took were harder than those in med school. :clap:

Hi, if you don't mind me asking, what was your undergrad gpa and what score did you receive on the mcat? I am currently looking at master programs as well, but I would like to know if it will be well worth my while.
Thank you.
 
Hi, if you don't mind me asking, what was your undergrad gpa and what score did you receive on the mcat? I am currently looking at master programs as well, but I would like to know if it will be well worth my while.
Thank you.

The post you are responding to is 13 years old and the user hasn't been on SDN for 6 years. I wouldn't expect a response.
 
Hi guys, I don't know if this is where I should post but here it is. I would like your opinions what you think would be the next best step!

I have a low CGPA of 3.0, and around the same if not lower for science. I did my mcat for the first time without using any external help from a program and got a score of 485. I know I wanted to go to med school, but i don't think ill get in applying to a Canadian school or even American with these numbers. Should I go to a Caribbean school (Ross or Saba) or finish my masters for 2 years aim for a high mark and re-write the mcat and apply again for a Canadian. Keeping in mind i'll finish my masters at the age of 25 and then start medical school which mean i'd graduate at age 29/30 and start looking for residencies, IF i find one in Canada, if not i'll have to try and get any in America. OR having an opportunity (I have interviewed for both schools but have not heard back from them.) I can go straight to Ross or Saba, because whats the guarantee that even after completing my masters I'll get into a Canadian school? That would just mean that I "wasted" 2 years doing a degree and have to start in the Caribbean, something I could've done 2 years prior. IS it really worth waiting to re-try in two years or should one just go straight to the Caribbean. My concerns with the Caribbean are that it becomes an international school, apart from the american exams you have to write extra Canadian ones. At the end of the day its medical school, if for any reason I don't do well in the basic sciences or don't competitively score on the STEP 1 exam I would be wasting 2 years and having a 200K loan on my head with no extra degree and no job.
Please do be kind in your responses, and all your help in helping me decide what the best next step would be.
 
Please do be kind in your responses, and all your help in helping me decide what the best next step would be.
Unfortunately a 485, regardless of preparation, indicates that your undergrad work didn't get you in the game, just in terms of mastering the content and test taking, regardless of GPA. (485 is a 16 on the old system.)

It would be premature for you to proceed to grad work. You would have to do more undergrad, such as a 2nd bachelors, full time for 2 years. After that effort, you would still not know your chances, and you would still likely need to invest months and money in MCAT prep.

You speak of "wasting" 2 years if you don't get into a Carib school. Carib schools are designed to fail out half the class within 2 years. It's their business model. Based on where you are starting, in a Carib story, mostly likely you'd be wasting 4 years while accumulating $100k+ debt.

Search SDN on "low GPA" and focus on the postbac forum. There is more than a decade of commentary here from those who have made it from where you are. Your competition is reading now, was reading last night, has been reading for years, takes notes, reads for consensus opinions, absorbs this amazing free resource.

I very seriously hope you are considering other paths than medicine. There are many more challenging, lucrative, respected careers that contribute to society. Just getting into med school is going to take multiple years and huge piles of money and heavy loads of misery and frustration, and that won't be the hard part. Not by a long shot.

So the next step is to do a great deal of reading on SDN. Many many hours. That reading is the action you need to take.

Hope that helps a bit. Best of luck to you.
 
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Out of curiosity from what viewpoint are you speaking? That is, are you a medical student, applicant, MD or Adcom? I ask because I disagree so strongly with what you are saying here. I did get my MPH before medical school. My undergrad GPA was a 2.8 (I worked full-time) and I was strongly advised to go the MPH route for one simple reason - most of the MPH faculty were also Medical School faculty. That meant my letters of rec would be from faculty members at the Medical School. Not only that but an MPH would give me an added qualification after med school. All of the residents in the Cook County (IL) Hospital's Occ. Med. residency were in my MPH program (I chose an emphasis in environmental and occupational medicine - required coursework for them). So I made lots of professional contacts. I also did research, which was well supported by faculty, and there were no "easy As". I did well, and applied to medical school after my first year...
...to universal rejections. +pity+
Reapplying after graduation, I got in easily. :hardy:

Keep in mind, I got a job with my degree! This is important because many schools (see below) do not "add-in" your Master's work until it is completed. That means, you will be in the "real world" for at least 1 yr. IMHO, it is better to obtain a degree wih real world validity (such as an MPH or MPA/MPP) as opposed to one purely in the sciences. That way, should you need to find a career alternative, you haven't wasted your time.

During medical school, I worked with our admissions committee and had the chance to find out a bit about my own admission. At my institution all Master's Degree programs are given exactly the same weight, and the "extra points" are only awarded AFTER graduation from the program. Unfortunately this maens if you apply in June after your graduation, you need something to do over the next year. The only exceptions to the "extra points" are Master's programs designed specifically for premed. Those are considered the same as post-bacc programs and awarded far less of a bump and still require completion before consideration.

I do not know what adcoms you spoke with, but my experience runs absolutely counter to your advice. BTW - I cast a fairly wide net with my applications, including being granted interviews at UCLA, Uva, GW, and UIC. All saw the MPH as a "positive factor". I had also applied, and was accepted, to the JHU PhD program in Health Policy as a "back-up", they also liked the MPH!

The only caveat to that is that I did seek, and found, a position in Public Health. I was able to "talk up" my job during interviews, separating myself from those who appeared to get the degree only as a means to medical school acceptance. IMHO, that is the difference.

If you want my advice, find a Masters program that interests you and is used in the "real world" (outside of medicine). Do well there and your chances for admission will soar.

Just my $0.02 (actual cash value $0.005)

- H

Hi,

I am looking into getting an MPH as a stepping stone to get into Medical School. I have not finished all of my science requirements for med-school as of yet and am worried that an MPH could set me back and while I would have a Master's degree I would still have to complete taking all of my science courses. I have just completed my first year of courses in science and am headed into my second year of sciences. Would you suggest getting all of my science courses done and then pursuing an MD program or would you suggest going to the MPH program to enhance my real-world experience and applying for med-school. Does the MPH supersede the pre-requisites for science?

Thanks,

E.
 
an MPH has nothing to do with the science prereqs for med school.

an MPH is marginally helpful IF you're still in the app pile AFTER all the usual med school assets are reviewed. That means undergrad GPA, MCAT, clinical exposure.

best of luck to you.
 
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It really all depends.
 
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