MCAT accommodations no longer get flagged

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pithy84

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It looks like people who receive accommodations on the MCAT will no longer have their score flagged:

AAMC website announcement

I make no value judgment about whether score flagging is good or bad (not at present). However, I invite other people to post their opinions.

Interestingly, I don't see any news stories about this. Prior to this policy change, which takes effect in "late March of 2015", people who received MCAT accommodations for a disability got an asterisk or something similar stating that the test was "administered under non-standard conditions". Although this asterisk sometimes meant the student got extended time, it could also appear if the proctor fell asleep during the test (true story) or if there was a power outage during the test (also a true story). Same asterisk in all cases.

Of note, the MCAT is the last major exam in the US to abandon the policy of flagging scores. The LSAT (law school admission test) had to stop flagging scores in 2014 because they lost a lawsuit, it was a somewhat major news item. The LSAT was also fined several million dollars. News stories at that time pointed out that the MCAT was the only holdout, and their policy probably would not withstand a lawsuit.

The SAT had to stop flagging scores in 2002, also because they lost a lawsuit.

The GRE (for grad school) is not flagged. The TOEFL (test of English as a foreign language) is not flagged. The GMAT (for business school) is not flagged. I have grown bored of looking up standardized tests, it is apparent that none of them are flagged anymore.

Receiving accommodations on the MCAT is still extremely difficult. The MCAT has a reputation for setting the bar extremely high, relative to other standardized tests. According to the latest data I can find, less than 1% of MCAT examinees are approved for extended time, stop-the-clock breaks, extended breaks, or other accommodations that change the timing. Accommodations for personal medical items (such as food, water, or medication) are more common and apparently easier to get. Other accommodations include increased font size for poor vision. All these accommodations used to get an asterisk (a flag), now none will.

Whether it is fair to grant extended time is a difficult question, but it is possible to address this question with science. Unfortunately, this research has not been done in the case of the MCAT. Research does exist for the SAT, and it seems that extended time on the SAT is indeed fair. The disabled students who receive extended time go on to do well in college, their SAT scores remain a valid predictor of college grades.

From a legal standpoint, it seems rather clear that score flagging was a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Every time this question was tested by a court, the court ruled that score flagging is illegal (see the LSAT decision in 2014 and the SAT decision in 2002). The ADA makes it very clear that employers and schools cannot ask applicants if they are disabled (with limited exceptions). If you cannot ask, then why should you be notified?

The ADA is actually an interesting law. A man applying for a job was asked if he was disabled, and he lied and said no. Upon learning of his disability, the employer fired him for lying in his interview. This went to court, and the court ruled that the man had been wrongfully terminated. The man had a right to lie, because the question itself was illegal. The opposing lawyers argued that the man should have told his interviewer, "that question is illegal, I will not answer it," but the court found that answering in that manner would potentially bias the interviewer. Lying was legally permissible under those circumstances.

As I mentioned in another post, the ADA does not protect people with temporary disabilities such as broken bones. The MCAT doesn't allow you to have a cast on, and they are not obligated to bend this policy, even with advance notice and a doctor's note. This seems rather silly to me, but in theory you could hide a cheat sheet inside your cast. Also in theory, you can wait until your bone heals and then take the MCAT.

Laws are weird.

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The real world lacks accommodations. You can get accommodated conditions for undergrad tests, the MCAT, and med school tests but when you hit the hospital floor and have to answer questions in the form of pimping instead of on a test with unlimited time in a quiet room, it must be quite a shock. I get that the issue is already decided legally, it just seems on logical grounds that it is info that would enhance our ability to select for best physician material. It seems to me that someone struggling to think clearly in a distracting environment / with limited time does change their relative ability (just like having a duller vs sharper mind does), and keeping the former hidden helps those applicants at the expense of society.

In other words, think about why people would worry that accommodation flags put them at a disadvantage - admissions isn't spitefully anti-disability, there are logical grounds to view the score and applicant differently.
Do you work in a hospital?
 
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The real world lacks accommodations. You can get accommodated conditions for undergrad tests, the MCAT, and med school tests but when you hit the hospital floor and have to answer questions in the form of pimping instead of on a test with unlimited time in a quiet room, it must be quite a shock. I get that the issue is already decided legally, it just seems on logical grounds that it is info that would enhance our ability to select for best physician material. It seems to me that someone struggling to think clearly in a distracting environment / with limited time does change their relative ability (just like having a duller vs sharper mind does), and keeping the former hidden helps those applicants at the expense of society.

In other words, think about why people would worry that accommodation flags put them at a disadvantage - admissions isn't spitefully anti-disability, there are logical grounds to view the score and applicant differently.
I am trying to understand your point of view when you say: "the real world lacks accommodations" and disabled "applicants are an expense of society."
 
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The real world lacks accommodations. You can get accommodated conditions for undergrad tests, the MCAT, and med school tests but when you hit the hospital floor and have to answer questions in the form of pimping instead of on a test with unlimited time in a quiet room, it must be quite a shock. I get that the issue is already decided legally, it just seems on logical grounds that it is info that would enhance our ability to select for best physician material. It seems to me that someone struggling to think clearly in a distracting environment / with limited time does change their relative ability (just like having a duller vs sharper mind does), and keeping the former hidden helps those applicants at the expense of society.

In other words, think about why people would worry that accommodation flags put them at a disadvantage - admissions isn't spitefully anti-disability, there are logical grounds to view the score and applicant differently.

The MCAT is not a real-world simulation. It's a computer-based test.
 
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taking the MCAT is not a right...I get where you are coming from but the point of that exam is to be standardized, so it should be. Any accoomodation for medical reasons either needs to be addressed one of two ways. It's either an accommodation that doesn't effect cheating and everyone should get the same treatment or it's an unreasonable and you just don't get it no matter what your reason is........standardized
Allowing a diabetic to have their insulin and/or food so that they don't die is totally different than a guy just wanting food because he's a stress eater or whatever. In the real world, you don't ignore people's medical conditions or disabilities in the name of "fairness-" they're handicapped and at a disadvantage, but have medically available things that can bring them up to the same level as people who aren't ill or disabled. It's like you're saying, "well if that kid with ADD can take amphetamines, everyone should be able to take amphetamines," or, "if that guy is on testosterone because he lost his testicles to testicular cancer, everyone should be able to be on testosterone." It's silly, stupid, and unrealistic.
 
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Allowing a diabetic to have their insulin and/or food so that they don't die is totally different than a guy just wanting food because he's a stress eater or whatever. In the real world, you don't ignore people's medical conditions or disabilities in the name of "fairness-" they're handicapped and at a disadvantage, but have medically available things that can bring them up to the same level as people who aren't ill or disabled. It's like you're saying, "well if that kid with ADD can take amphetamines, everyone should be able to take amphetamines," or, "if that guy is on testosterone because he lost his testicles to testicular cancer, everyone should be able to be on testosterone." It's silly, stupid, and unrealistic.
well said my friend, well said!
 
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Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital. I've seen how pimping works.

I mean that people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system.

If society is picking a doctor between two applicants, it is beneficial to society but not to one of the applicants to reveal that one is much faster to solve problems (assuming similar accuracy in the solving).
 
Allowing a diabetic to have their insulin and/or food so that they don't die is totally different than a guy just wanting food because he's a stress eater or whatever. In the real world, you don't ignore people's medical conditions or disabilities in the name of "fairness-" they're handicapped and at a disadvantage, but have medically available things that can bring them up to the same level as people who aren't ill or disabled. It's like you're saying, "well if that kid with ADD can take amphetamines, everyone should be able to take amphetamines," or, "if that guy is on testosterone because he lost his testicles to testicular cancer, everyone should be able to be on testosterone." It's silly, stupid, and unrealistic.
Bad analogies. It's no disadvantage to the selection process to be unaware someone takes ADD meds, because they will always take ADD meds and are thus accurately representative of their abilities down the line when compared to a non-ADD medicated student. It is different to say that someone who needed extra time can have that hidden, such that their 35 appears the same as a 35 from someone under standard conditions, because it is not true that they would have the same abilities down the line under equal time conditions. This is why it is wrong to take ADD meds only occasionally to study with no intention to continue throughout your life; you are then presenting yourself at boosted levels to be judged instead of at the level representative of what you'll be like down the line.
 
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Why wouldn't cognitive enhancement be encouraged instead? There are plenty of ethical issues, but it could be promoted if we searched for new drugs that would provide an optimal enhancement with little side effects.
The question of fairness, for some reason here, only seems to be this important to people who have yet to make it to medical school. Don't worry everyone: the guy next to you who popped an Adderall and the one next to him who is getting to drink water while you can't on the MCAT won't necessarily get in before you.
 
Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital. I've seen how pimping works.

I mean that people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system.

If society is picking a doctor between two applicants, it is beneficial to society but not to one of the applicants to reveal that one is much faster to solve problems (assuming similar accuracy in the solving).
it's not about reasoning quickly. it's about reasoning accurately... a doctor could reason in less than a second but if his reasoning is wrong and leads to even bigger problems, the patient would be better to go to a doctor who would take some time to reason accurately.. out of every 5 patients 1 is misdiagnosed, so that shows inaccuracy is pretty common in the medical field, and there is more lack of knowledge that leads to issues in health care rather than timing
 
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it's not about reasoning quickly. it's about reasoning accurately... a doctor could reason in less than a second but if his reasoning is wrong and leads to even bigger problems, the patient would be better to go to a doctor who would take some time to reason accurately.. out of every 5 patients 1 is misdiagnosed, so that shows inaccuracy is pretty common in the medical field, and there is more lack of knowledge that leads to issues in health care rather than timing
Hence the part where I said (assume similar accuracy). Of course accuracy trumps speed, but ceteris paribus a speedy accurate doctor trumps a slow accurate doctor.
 
Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital. I've seen how pimping works.

I mean that people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system.

If society is picking a doctor between two applicants, it is beneficial to society but not to one of the applicants to reveal that one is much faster to solve problems (assuming similar accuracy in the solving).
I am a professional who works in a hospital...I was given accommodations on my license exam...medicine requires knowledge, compassion, empathy, ethics, honesty, hard work and critical thinking skills.

If a doctor is racing to see 45 patients a day in their office, its out of greed. I know a physician who was seeing an average of 60-70 patients per day in her office, she was reprimanded and flagged by Medicare for unsafe practices. She demanded that the doctors who work for her also see 60-70 patients per day, they quit. Her practice is now hanging by a thread. She has lost 2 malpractice lawsuits for harming patients. Perhaps she should have taken the time to focus on quality instead of her bank account. I also know a physician who lost their Medicare privileges because he was billing for a number of hospital patients that would have required him to work 24 hours a day - he was fast, but not spending the amount of time he was billing for...

Here's how honest doctors plan their time: 15 minutes for a patient follow up, 30 minutes for a new patient consult. Totally doable for any resident, NP, PA, or MD. That is not a new concept, in school or out.

Personally, I don't want a doctor that is the fastest. I want a doctor who will listen to patients and work with them to attain quality of life in health and illness. I want a doctor who is focused on quality of care rather than some race to see the most patients and make the most money. These are some reasons that the Psych/Soc topics were added to MCAT. These are reasons that medical students take ethics class....reasons that medical residents work less hours...

So, I politely disagree with your statements and I am unsure where you are getting your facts..."people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system."

Says who?
 
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Why wouldn't cognitive enhancement be encouraged instead? There are plenty of ethical issues, but it could be promoted if we searched for new drugs that would provide an optimal enhancement with little side effects.
The question of fairness, for some reason here, only seems to be this important to people who have yet to make it to medical school. Don't worry everyone: the guy next to you who popped an Adderall and the one next to him who is getting to drink water while you can't on the MCAT won't necessarily get in before you.
If there were not negative effects from the drug I would have no moral objection to someone using it as a student so long as they planned to continue using it down the road. Debates on "fairness" are ridiculous in nature when regarding a g-loaded test. What matters is accurate representation, not fairness to all test takers.
 
I am a professional who works in a hospital...I was given accommodations on my license exam...medicine requires knowledge, compassion, empathy, ethics, honesty, hard work and critical thinking skills.

If a doctor is racing to see 45 patients a day in their office, its out of greed. I know a physician who was seeing an average of 60-70 patients per day in her office, she was reprimanded and flagged by Medicare for unsafe practices. She demanded that the doctors who work for her also see 60-70 patients per day, they quit. Her practice is now hanging by a thread. She has lost 2 malpractice lawsuits for harming patients. Perhaps she should have taken the time to focus on quality instead of her bank account. I also know a physician who lost their Medicare privileges because he was billing for a number of hospital patients that would have required him to work 24 hours a day - he was fast, but not spending the amount of time he was billing for...

Here's how honest doctors plan their time: 15 minutes for a patient follow up, 30 minutes for a new patient consult. Totally doable for any resident, NP, PA, or MD. That is not a new concept, in school or out.

Personally, I don't want a doctor that is the fastest. I want a doctor who will listen to patients and work with them to attain quality of life in health and illness. I want a doctor who is focused on quality of care rather than some race to see the most patients and make the most money. These are some reasons that the Psych/Soc topics were added to MCAT. These are reasons that medical students take ethics class....reasons that medical residents work less hours...

So, I politely disagree with your statements and I am unsure where you are getting your facts..."people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system."

Says who?
Greedily overloading relative to speed is a separate argument, you could talk about a fast doctor overloading themselves and a slow doctor overloading themselves in equal measure. The difference of importance is the load that each can comfortably take.

Again think about your argument in regards to a sharper/duller mind. Either one can overload themselves out of greed. It is still beneficial for society to be able to select for sharper minds (among other things) in their doctors.
 
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Bad analogies. It's no disadvantage to the selection process to be unaware someone takes ADD meds, because they will always take ADD meds and are thus accurately representative of their abilities down the line when compared to a non-ADD medicated student. It is different to say that someone who needed extra time can have that hidden, such that their 35 appears the same as a 35 from someone under standard conditions, because it is not true that they would have the same abilities down the line under equal time conditions. This is why it is wrong to take ADD meds only occasionally to study with no intention to continue throughout your life; you are then presenting yourself at boosted levels to be judged instead of at the level representative of what you'll be like down the line.
ADD medications are not needed through out the life span for most patients who take them. The medication is taken as prescribed, that can be every day, or every other day or no meds on weekends. Its up to the medical provider writing the script - not you & your assumptions on how a person should "ethically" take their medication.

You are stating facts that aren't true.
 
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Greedily overloading relative to speed is a separate argument, you could talk about a fast doctor overloading themselves and a slow doctor overloading themselves in equal measure. The difference of importance is the load that each can comfortably take.

Again think about your argument in regards to a shaper/duller mind. Either one can overload themselves out of greed. It is still beneficial for society to be able to select for sharper minds (among other things) in their doctors.
You are concluding that ADHD minds are not sharp. Incorrect. Where do you get your facts?
 
ADD medications are not needed through out the life span for most patients who take them. The medication are taken as prescribed, that can be every day, or every other day or no meds on weekends. Its up to the medical provider writing the script.

You are stating facts that aren't true.
My position only holds that you'd continue the drugs as long as you needed them, including beyond your time as a student, not for life or any set time. If you woke up one day able to perform as well as before with no drugs, then there is no reason to take them. It also doesn't require constant medication, only that whatever your medication behavior is continues similarly so long as you need it it perform at your highest level.

You are (poorly) attempting to pick apart specifics of analogy instead of addressing my central claim that accurate representation > fairness.
 
You are concluding that ADHD minds are not sharp. Incorrect. Where do you get your facts?
I absolutely did not conclude that. Sharpness is not related to ADD, but dullness and slower problem solving both fall into a shared category of less desirable in physicians (ceteris paribus).

Analogy is not identity.
 
Below quote taken from here: http://www.primarilyinattentiveadd.com/2013/05/biased-against-disabiliteis-adhd-take.html

Are you biased against people with ADHD? I get letters often from patients who feel that their doctor have a bias against people with a diagnosis of ADHD. The trust problems caused by these biases are monumental! It is likely that many doctors and teachers are biased against people with ADHD but it is likely that many of us, even those people with ADHD, also have a biases against people with disabilities including biases against people with ADHD disabilities.

I began to give this some thought because of a study that I just read. This published study looked at the obesity biases of three hundred third year U.S. medical students. The study will soon be published in the Journal of Academic Medicine. The researchers of this study felt that medical student biases against obesity were important to understand since a large number of Americans are overweight and unknown prejudices can affect the way that doctors relate to their patients and this, in turn, can affect how comfortable patients feel with their health care provider. These feelings can also affect how likely these patients are to go to their health care provider for care or advice.

The Journal of Academic Medicine study found that almost 40% of the third year medical students had a bias against people who were obese and fewer than 25% of these students were aware of this bias. My guess is that if you were to give this test to health care providers across this country, many of us would test in the bias range.

The specific test that was used to test this bias is called the Implicit Association Test. Anyone can take the test and it is completely free. At the link you can chose what biases you would like to test. I have included the link so that you can test yourselves if you like. The test takes about 10 minutes and is a bit difficult to understand at first but once you get the hang of it, it is easy to complete. This test is designed to determine prejudice your prejudice towards people who are overweight, disabled, of certain ethnic backgrounds, etc.

I found the test pretty eye opening. I took the obesity prejudice test first and scored as being moderately biased against obese people. When I compared my scores to most of the other people taking the test, I found that I was far from alone. My scores on the disability bias test were a bit better in that I was less prejudice but my score still reflected a slight bias against disabilities. I was surprised by my scores.

Take the Implicit Association Test!. You might be surprised by what you find.
 
Below quote taken from here: http://www.primarilyinattentiveadd.com/2013/05/biased-against-disabiliteis-adhd-take.html

Are you biased against people with ADHD? I get letters often from patients who feel that their doctor have a bias against people with a diagnosis of ADHD. The trust problems caused by these biases are monumental! It is likely that many doctors and teachers are biased against people with ADHD but it is likely that many of us, even those people with ADHD, also have a biases against people with disabilities including biases against people with ADHD disabilities.

I began to give this some thought because of a study that I just read. This published study looked at the obesity biases of three hundred third year U.S. medical students. The study will soon be published in the Journal of Academic Medicine. The researchers of this study felt that medical student biases against obesity were important to understand since a large number of Americans are overweight and unknown prejudices can affect the way that doctors relate to their patients and this, in turn, can affect how comfortable patients feel with their health care provider. These feelings can also affect how likely these patients are to go to their health care provider for care or advice.

The Journal of Academic Medicine study found that almost 40% of the third year medical students had a bias against people who were obese and fewer than 25% of these students were aware of this bias. My guess is that if you were to give this test to health care providers across this country, many of us would test in the bias range.

The specific test that was used to test this bias is called the Implicit Association Test. Anyone can take the test and it is completely free. At the link you can chose what biases you would like to test. I have included the link so that you can test yourselves if you like. The test takes about 10 minutes and is a bit difficult to understand at first but once you get the hang of it, it is easy to complete. This test is designed to determine prejudice your prejudice towards people who are overweight, disabled, of certain ethnic backgrounds, etc.

I found the test pretty eye opening. I took the obesity prejudice test first and scored as being moderately biased against obese people. When I compared my scores to most of the other people taking the test, I found that I was far from alone. My scores on the disability bias test were a bit better in that I was less prejudice but my score still reflected a slight bias against disabilities. I was surprised by my scores.

Take the Implicit Association Test!. You might be surprised by what you find.
I can't even begin to see the relevance of this. I've openly stated several times that I think bias against accomadated scores is appropriate, because the aim is accurate evaluation rather than fairness. If the goal here was blanket fairness to test takers / applicants I'd hold the opposite position.
 
The assumption that accommodation on the MCAT somehow translates to performance as a physician is purely fictional and unsupported by anything besides inane hand-waving.

Give it up.
 
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You are very biased.
You think you know it all.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Your "facts" are wrong regarding ADHD.
Obviously, you are young and intellectually inexperienced. I politely tried to open your eyes to your prejudice. I politely tried to open your eyes to incorrect information.
You are resistant to opening your mind. At some point, someone much bigger than I, will put you in your place and rub your nose in it.
Your unenlightened views and statements are incredibly offensive.
 
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The assumption that accommodation on the MCAT somehow translates to performance as a physician is purely fictional and unsupported by anything besides inane hand-waving.

Give it up.
Same can be said for intelligence. I still think it is better ceteris paribus to be able to select for higher intelligence.
 
You are very biased.
You think you know it all.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Your "facts" are wrong regarding ADHD.
Obviously, you are young and intellectually inexperienced. I politely tried to open your eyes to your prejudice. I politely tried to open your eyes to incorrect information.
You are resistant to opening your mind. At some point, someone much bigger than I, will put you in your place and rub your nose in it.
Your unenlightened views and statements are incredibly offensive.
I still think you misunderstand my position.

I think the system would be extremely unfair to the disabled at no fault of their own, and that is terrible.

It is still the best system, because the aim is not fairness to all applicants/testers.
 
And here's the assumption that MCAT score or accommodation is "intelligence."

You're making yourself look really bad.
You don't think the MCAT is at least partially g-loaded or that grades at least partially capture intelligence? Tests emphasizing reading comp and analysis are well established to be g-loaded.

I don't much care, I'm here to enjoy challenging discussion not hide unpopular views
 
You don't think the MCAT is at least partially g-loaded or that grades at least partially capture intelligence? Tests emphasizing reading comp and analysis are well established to be g-loaded.

I don't much care, I'm here to enjoy challenging discussion not hide unpopular views
Your "views" are statements that are discriminatory against people with disabilities.

You are wrong about time and MCAT....Per JAMA 6/19/2015 on MCAT changes in 2015:
"The recently redesigned MCAT increases the amount of time per question . . . to reduce potential time barriers that may make it difficult for examinees to demonstrate their proficiency. Providing more working time may decrease the need for extra testing time and reduce the differences in predictive meaning between scores obtained under standard vs. extra time conditions."
 
I don't see discussion in any of your posts.
You write the same thing over and over - that people with disabilities, like ADHD, should be kept out of medicine because they cannot think clearly or fast enough.
Statements like these are not discussion at all; you are resistant to discussion and you have incorrect facts.
 
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If there were not negative effects from the drug I would have no moral objection to someone using it as a student so long as they planned to continue using it down the road. Debates on "fairness" are ridiculous in nature when regarding a g-loaded test. What matters is accurate representation, not fairness to all test takers.
Source that the MCAT is "g-loaded"? Source that MCAT score is an accurate representation of your day-to-day performance/your intelligence? Any data on test-restest reliability? You're talking out of your ass and basing all of your argument ITT on something that is, to my knowledge, unsubstantiated.
 
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Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital. I've seen how pimping works.

I mean that people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system.

If society is picking a doctor between two applicants, it is beneficial to society but not to one of the applicants to reveal that one is much faster to solve problems (assuming similar accuracy in the solving).
Back up your statements. Show us what you got. Where are you getting your facts? Cite your references.
 
Source that the MCAT is "g-loaded"? Source that MCAT score is an accurate representation of your day-to-day performance/your intelligence? Any data on test-restest reliability? You're talking out of your ass and basing all of your argument ITT on something that is, to my knowledge, unsubstantiated.
You can Google reading comp and maths vs IQ correlations and find plenty. Even the SAT CR+M is a start.
I mean ask yourself the opposite extreme - two groups, one that all scored 40+ and another that all scored 15-20, have their intelligence tested (pick your metric). Gun to your head that you choose right, you really would predict no significant difference? Please. The MCAT requires a good deal of studying but also heavily rewards intelligence.
 
Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital. I've seen how pimping works.

I mean that people who are slower to reason through problems don't get extra time to reason through problems outside of the educational system.

If society is picking a doctor between two applicants, it is beneficial to society but not to one of the applicants to reveal that one is much faster to solve problems (assuming similar accuracy in the solving).
When I asked you if you worked in a hospital...you replied:
"Yes Ive spent a good amount of time in the local teaching hospital."

That doesn't sound like you work in a hospital or in healthcare. With that said, you are full of it. A bag of wind. No substance. No credible experience.
 
You can Google reading comp and maths vs IQ correlations and find plenty. Even the SAT CR+M is a start.
I mean ask yourself the opposite extreme - two groups, one that all scored 40+ and another that all scored 15-20, have their intelligence tested (pick your metric). Gun to your head that you choose right, you really would predict no significant difference? Please. The MCAT requires a good deal of studying but also heavily rewards intelligence.
Pointing me to Google your statements as a cited reference for your facts, pretty weak.
I rest my case.

And all the people reading your post, just laughed at you, Mr. "I'm here to enjoy challenging discussion not hide unpopular views"

Laughable.
 
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You can Google reading comp and maths vs IQ correlations and find plenty. Even the SAT CR+M is a start.
I mean ask yourself the opposite extreme - two groups, one that all scored 40+ and another that all scored 15-20, have their intelligence tested (pick your metric). Gun to your head that you choose right, you really would predict no significant difference? Please. The MCAT requires a good deal of studying but also heavily rewards intelligence.

Burden of proof on you. I would assume you have readily available data if you're so sure of yourself. Save me the trouble of digging through tons of stuff if you can easily access it.

I am glad to see you are moving away from unsubstantiated "facts". Unfortunately, you are now trying to make your point using a comparison between two extremes (with no other information or other factors upon which to base one's decision) and forcing people to choose. Of course I would say yes based on what I had, but that doesn't make it true.
 
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I've been on mobile this whole time. When i get home i can give you guys evidence for critical reading and maths being g-loaded.

The comparison I made is what matters. It may be an imperfect proxy but to write it off entirely as inane hand waving is quite weak.

I have worked a couple hundred hours in the teaching hospital and shadowed with Med students there. I don't really see how that qualifies either of us, time in a hospital does not inform you about transparency of accomodations in admissions.
 
Pointing me to Google your statements as a cited reference for your facts, pretty weak.
I rest my case.

And all the people reading your post, just laughed at you, Mr. "I'm here to enjoy challenging discussion not hide unpopular views"

Laughable.
Do you really think that if someone doesn't have something immediately handy it doesn't exist?

The attacks at me don't exactly radiate that you were handling the argument itself well. A lot of SDN will be laughing right back at you for this kind of unnecessary comment that contributes nothing.
 
I've been on mobile this whole time. When i get home i can give you guys evidence for critical reading and maths being g-loaded.

The comparison I made is what matters. It may be an imperfect proxy but to write it off entirely as inane hand waving is quite weak.

I have worked a couple hundred hours in the teaching hospital and shadowed with Med students there. I don't really see how that qualifies either of us, time in a hospital does not inform you about transparency of accomodations in admissions.
Working in healthcare, having healthcare experience, matters when you make blanket statements on the disabled being unqualified to: be admitted into medical school, perform well in medical school, have less than sharp minds, not having the characteristics the society & patients want in a provider, and lastly provide quality care to patients. Did I miss any other reasons that you felt the disabled should not be in medicine? Oh, one more you wrote, the disabled prefer to hide their disabilities from patients.

Let me guess, you worked part-time as a patient transporter, so now you are an expert on the medical profession and the healthcare arena?

I have worked thousands of hours in a hospital. Hospitals hire disabled doctors, nurses, administrators, etc. Any of them would be disheartened if they saw the hate that you write.
 
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If only 1% of mcat takers are granted any sort of accommodation, from which most "hardcore" ones are extended time for persons with disabilities - do you guys really think this can make a realistically (not statistically) significant difference on a grand scale? I think answer is very clear and this kind of "discussion" has little point except practicing "lawyer" skills here on MCAT forum. I don't care - you can go on, but if you really have such free time on your hands, your invaluable input will be much appreciated in lots of other (more valuable for current applicants) topics on this forum.
 
Do you really think that if someone doesn't have something immediately handy it doesn't exist?

The attacks at me don't exactly radiate that you were handling the argument itself well. A lot of SDN will be laughing right back at you for this kind of unnecessary comment that contributes nothing.
Yep.
The "attacks" you mention are on the hateful information that you so readily spew.

Its comical that you don't remember where you found your "facts"...yet you don't hesitate in making your unfounded claims.

You threw out a bunch of offensive statements and now you have to go home and google them to prove they exist? And your defense is to point at us for attacking you...we are engaging in your "challenging discussion of unpopular views".
 
If only 1% of mcat takers are granted any sort of accommodation, from which most "hardcore" ones are extended time for persons with disabilities - do you guys really think this can make a realistically (not statistically) significant difference on a grand scale? I think answer is very clear and this kind of "discussion" has little point except practicing "lawyer" skills here on MCAT forum. I don't care - you can go on, but if you really have such free time on your hands, your invaluable input will be much appreciated in lots of other (more valuable for current applicants) topics on this forum.

For those who are disabled (or know someone with a disability) it is important to refute offensive remarks about what careers the disabled should be disqualified from entering.
 
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Working in healthcare, having healthcare experience, matters when you make blanket statements on the disabled being unqualified to: be admitted into medical school, perform well in medical school, have less than sharp minds, not having the characteristics the society & patients want in a provider, and lastly provide quality care to patients. Did I miss any other reasons that you felt the disabled should not be in medicine? Oh, one more you wrote, the disabled prefer to hide their disabilities from patients.

Let me guess, you worked part-time as a patient transporter, so now you are an expert on the medical profession and the healthcare arena?

I have worked thousands of hours in a hospital. Hospitals hire disabled doctors, nurses, administrators, etc. Any of them would be disheartened if they saw the hate that you write.
I'm sorry, but I'm wholly unconvinced that hours of experience working in a hospital lets you assert that slower problem solving means nothing. Grades and test scores come front and center in this process for a reason, and a change in those parameters (like removing time constraints from the MCAT) changes what can be assessed in them and should thus be visible to the evaluators.
 
Allowing a diabetic to have their insulin and/or food so that they don't die is totally different than a guy just wanting food because he's a stress eater or whatever. In the real world, you don't ignore people's medical conditions or disabilities in the name of "fairness-" they're handicapped and at a disadvantage, but have medically available things that can bring them up to the same level as people who aren't ill or disabled. It's like you're saying, "well if that kid with ADD can take amphetamines, everyone should be able to take amphetamines," or, "if that guy is on testosterone because he lost his testicles to testicular cancer, everyone should be able to be on testosterone." It's silly, stupid, and unrealistic.

it's the same reason they don't allow prosthetic limbs in the olympics for runners... it's impossible to objectively quantify that you aren't actually providing an advantage with the accomodation
 
it's the same reason they don't allow prosthetic limbs in the olympics for runners... it's impossible to objectively quantify that you aren't actually providing an advantage with the accomodation
The MCAT is not an athletic competition. It is a test designed to determine how well you will perform in medical school. Given that the same accommodations made by the MCAT service will likely be required of your school per the ADA, it maintains its validity as a tool to determine how well you will perform in medical school.
 
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The MCAT is not an athletic competition. It is a test designed to determine how well you will perform in medical school. Given that the same accommodations made by the MCAT service will likely be required of your school per the ADA, it maintains its validity as a tool to determine how well you will perform in medical school.
and as patients don't wait longer to die if their physician needs accommodation, that's horrible logic
 
The MCAT is not an athletic competition. It is a test designed to determine how well you will perform in medical school. Given that the same accommodations made by the MCAT service will likely be required of your school per the ADA, it maintains its validity as a tool to determine how well you will perform in medical school.
Sure, it just isn't valid to say an extended time 35 and standard 35 fully demonstrate the same things, and that the difference (problem solving speed) is meaningless to admissions.

I don't oppose the idea of accommodations, if you need extra time you should get it. You just shouldn't be able to present your performance as if it contained the "under time pressure" element present in others scores.
 
There's plenty of fields one can enter where patients won't die if you take an extra minute to think about things.
It ends up translating into a general argument about efficiency/speed at X quality though. Are there a lot of fields where replacing a doc with someone twice as fast to reason through problems would have no impact at all? Why don't MD schools all have median MCATs in the mid 20s if all we care about is a sufficiency?
 
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Sure, it just isn't valid to say an extended time 35 and standard 35 fully demonstrate the same things, and that the difference (problem solving speed) is meaningless to admissions.

I don't oppose the idea of accommodations, if you need extra time you should get it. You just shouldn't be able to present your performance as if it contained the "under time pressure" element present in others scores.
What constitutes time pressure for you may not be the same for others. Giving more time to someone does not mean he will be under no time pressure, or under less time pressure.
 
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