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MD/MBA jobs right out of med school (no residency)

Discussion in 'Med Business [ MD/MBA, DO/MBA, DDS/MBA ]' started by deringer, 07.20.05.

  1. deringer

    deringer Junior Member

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    Hello,

    I'm considering getting an MBA so that I may enter the work force right out of college. I'm currently in a top 20 MD program and I've decided clinical medicine is not for me.

    Are there ANY jobs available for MD's without residency experience? Will an MBA make me more marketable (open more doors for jobs)? How readily available are jobs in the medical devices industry or consulting industry for MD's without residency experience?

    Thanks!
  2. prominence

    prominence Senior Member

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  3. deringer

    deringer Junior Member

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    Does anyone have any anecdotes of people who went into industry instead of pursuing a residency? Where did the people generally end up?
  4. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member Moderator Emeritus

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    I expect very few go straight from school with no residency due to the downside -- from what I've heard said by older docs, generally if you haven't done at least the initial year of residency (the internship year), it is very hard (if not impossible) to get back to a clinical career should you decide to practice medicine down the road instead of business. Thus you are perhaps closing a huge door for yourself by not doing some residency. This is similar to the question raised in another thread, which no one was yet able to answer with any certainty-- is it in fact the case that people ought to finish an internship year at least before venturing away from the medical side? If so (or if more) what is the reason behind this?
  5. deringer

    deringer Junior Member

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    Even after the internship year, I wonder what sort of jobs are available?
  6. mward04

    mward04 SDN Moderator Moderator Emeritus Partner Organization

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    I had several job offers to consulting firms while still in school so you will definitely be considered competitive. Some firms may even prefer this because you haven't developed a doctor's mentality that they typically do not like. The one area where I personally would not venture without a clinical background is in trying to manage physicians. That would be a huge mistake because they would rip you apart as a "fake doctor"

    I also had a friend get a job after intern year doing investment banking making mad cash so it's definitely possible. A problem with looking for a job after intern year is whether your networking is up to speed.
  7. TraumaJunkie

    TraumaJunkie Junior Member

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    Hi mward04. I'm currently in residency (intern year) and am, well let's say, in need of something more 9-5 (or at least more stable hours) for family reasons and have been thinking of switching into business. Similar situation as above, only medical training, no formal business training. I'm looking at a one year MBA program now (starting in late August) and am wondering what my competitiveness will be without actually obtaining my medical license...sounds like, as you mentioned below there are possibilities with an MD/MBA without residency. Also, what are your opinions on those with an MD only (no MBA). Thanks.


  8. mward04

    mward04 SDN Moderator Moderator Emeritus Partner Organization

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    You'd definitely be able to get a job without an MBA, my issue would be how you do long term. If you're smart, you pick things up quickly, you'd do fine. In business, just because you have a degree, doesn't mean you will do a good job. However, with that said, your big challenge will be getting in the door. If you don't have any business experience, it will be a challenge for you. That's where an MBA comes in nicely. It gives you immediate credentials and drastically changes how people perceive you. Another thing is, if you do not plan on doing anything clinical, this is a time to be concerned with the quality of your MBA program-go to the best program you possibly can.

    My personal philosophy (others will disagree), is that you should at least complete your first year and get a license. It will give you a better understanding of how clinical medicine is done. In the long term, it will be worth it.

    Lastly, if you just began several weeks ago, you really should give it time before you make such a life altering change. Intern year sucks, but don't think short term.

    Mike
  9. priyankasahney

    priyankasahney New Member

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    hi
    i have completed my graduuation from kharkov state medical university,ukraine this year.i am an indian citizen.But i am interested in administrative work like mba in medical administration or masters in public health.
    i am confused as will i get a job if i do these courses immideatly after that.
    and where should i apply ,i want to apply in usa but have no idea as which university is good.
    and what are the future prospectives and do i need to do internship in my home country?
    any comments or queries will be heplful.
    priyanka.
  10. ASDIC

    ASDIC The 9th Flotilla

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    priyanka...

    in my opinion if u are getting an MBA in healthcare management, an MBA from any decent business school in the US would be sufficient. As per jobs, most mba grads in the US get immediate placement into jobs...so u wouldnt have to worry about not getting a job.
  11. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    ive also heard this. without completing first year i think you cannot even write prescriptions. i think w/o completing at least first year of internship ppl will not see you as a true doc, thus the medical credentials would not be so helpful.
  12. craig_rt

    craig_rt Member

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  13. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    yeah i idolize that guy except for the fact that he got canned by trump in a hurry. healthcare VC, very appealing prospective career. he probably got fired to make a statement about book smarts and also bc his entertainment value was not very high compared to the more combative, photogenic, or charismatic folks.

    btw do you think i can locate contact info, like an e-mail address, for david? id like to get in touch with the guy. apprentice will not be what it was now that trumps gone. i couldnt imagine any md/mbas fighting for martha stewart's favor.
  14. DrBowtie

    DrBowtie Responsible?!?! PGY3 Moderator Emeritus

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    Shredder, There will be Martha and Trump. Two shows. I saw NBC running a "Martha on Mon, Trump on Tuesday" ad. Very true about his entertainment value. I am sure he was one of the smartest people there but he couldn't be on TV. People wouldn't watch.
  15. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    ive seen it suggested in places that they shouldve alternated the tycoons on the show. for example trump 1st year, martha 2nd year, cuban, branson, and so on. maybe different locales too. there are only so many tasks and sites to tackle in nyc, and trump only has so much to show off. it was also suggested that they maybe bring back particularly good hosts like trump for 2nd seasons.

    actually heres the article, old reliable fox news
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161747,00.html
  16. DrBowtie

    DrBowtie Responsible?!?! PGY3 Moderator Emeritus

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    If they switched up the hosts, they would have to focus the contestants to the hosts sector. I like trump since it is exclusively biz-real estate. I saw that tommy hilfiger show one time and the content just bored me. Fashion :thumbdown:
  17. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    i think it would be really cool to see different sectors, all under the Apprentice brand name. like branson could bring his british aspect...although i dont know, he might not fly so well in america. changing locales would be fun, i always thought apprentice LA might be good. i dont know who to use there, aaron spelling or something.

    or grab frists old fogie brother and have him do reality med biz :horns:
  18. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member Moderator Emeritus

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    Didn't Branson already try to do his own apprentice-type show ("the Rebel Billionaire") a few years back which failed dismally? Mark Cuban already tried one too. Thus far only Trump has proven himself to be enough of a character and to have enough mass appeal. I suspect after the initial episode curiosity factor, Martha Stewart will fall by the wayside. She was very popular with middle age housewives prior to her incarceration but there is not strong evidence that those viewers are prime time reality TV fans.
  19. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    correct, branson and cuban did have their failed stints. maybe they just could not handle the direct donald competition though? or you can reach for new tycoons like rupert murdoch and who knows who. yeah martha...dunno about that. curiosity factor is the good way to put it. poor marth--having failed tv shows for anybody must be so shameful. or you can relocate apprentice to 2pm on weekdays to get the housewives heh, the only competition would be springer.

    oh man bring steve jobs! its great exposure for anyone who does it and is successful with it.
  20. Energon

    Energon Nobody Summons Megatron

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    I know of only one person who refused to do anything clinical after graduating from medical school and went to work for J&J. I am not really sure what capacity she was working in.
    However, i would advice most of you out there to complete atleast a cushy trasitional year or prelim year somewhere and pass step III. For people with absolutely no business experience I would imagine it would be practically impossible to get a high paying business exec job. However, if you are in this situation, I would suggest you first take up a job at a pharma company doing research analysis which is something you are more than qualified for, start taking basic business classes on the side to boost up the business IQ. If you get a grasp of the business lingo really quickly, you can apply to more business oriented jobs, or go for an MBA which will definitely make you eligible for some great executive positions.
    As someone said earlier, without having a license management jobs in medical groups, HMO's or insurance can get really dicey since you will be looked down upon the halfassed doctor.
  21. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    very interesting. i knew i shouldve swung by here before dropping the no residency bomb in silly pre allo, what was i thinking. mward04, i dont know if this is addressed elsewhere, and if it is please direct me to it, but how do you plan to incorporate clinical medicine into your career, if at all? are you pursuing a residency? im a premed speculating about my future. i guess its universally understood that hinting at any of this while applying would be disastrous?

    OP, do you regret going to medical school? how did you decide clinical medicine is not for you? what happened over time?

    wow thats a lot of interrogation. sorry guys, im going through trying times. thanks in advance
  22. Minion677

    Minion677 Senior Member

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    bump

    im thinking about getting an MD/MBA.. if you only do a transitional year after medical school and pass Step III, can you practice at all? it seems that doing the extra year doesnt open any doors for you besides signaling to doctors/admins that you are a "real" doctor. from what i gather, if i wanted to practice some and also be in administration, i would need to do a full residency. if i only wanted to get into administration after the MD/MBA then i could go straight from there or do some sort of a transitional year.

    at this point im leaning towards administration, so what doors would an MD/MBA open for me versus just a normal MBA with a focus in healthcare administration?
  23. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    MD is the most powerful degree. i imagine youll make more money with any combination of MD/X vs X alone. also garner more respect and listening ears, as ppl just listen to docs. i think youre only a real doc to docs if you do a residency. i hear some docs will only consider you real if you maintain some clinical work. so maybe it varies depending on how open minded they are and what standards they hold. who cares what they think though, especially if youre their boss. you cant satisfy everyone, except yourself. im young though, dont listen to me. 1 yr i believe is enough to be an official, board certified doc who can prescribe.
  24. DrBowtie

    DrBowtie Responsible?!?! PGY3 Moderator Emeritus

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    One year transitional year is required to take step 3 so you can become a licensed doc.
  25. kito

    kito Big Evil

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    Look up Kris Jenner. He graduated from medical school and quit his surgical residency to work at T.Rowe Price. Now more than a decade into his new career he manages one of their biotech mutual funds, and both he and his fund are doing very well.
  26. Shredder

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    what kind of income can an md/mba expect to earn without doing a residency? what about with a year of internship to get licensed, how much difference does that make. im wondering how much is the md really worth compared to just an mba, ceteris paribus. does anyone have any concrete examples?
  27. ramonaquimby

    ramonaquimby I'm a PGY3?! WHAT?!

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    subscribing ;)
  28. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    dude, ramona quimby! i was just thinking about those books the other day and how i read ALL of them when i was little, great easy reading for little kids
  29. telly

    telly Junior Member

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    Here's my 2 cents ... I graduated from medical school and decided that I didn't want to do a residency (primarily because of family obligations) and I decided to start looking for jobs. I already had an MBA degree and several years of business experience at a Fortune 500 company. My experience was a little different because I was looking for a higher-level job paying in the mid 100's. There was nothing available. In pharma you can go towards the clinical side (medical director, running drug trials, quality control, etc.) or the marketing side. In clinical jobs they want someone that has practiced a bunch of medicine so you have credibility when talking to other docs. At a minimum they may take you on after you have completed a residency. Most in demand are psychiatry, neuro, heme/onc, cardio, endo as this seems where alot of the drug research is going on but you can get a job with almost any background. Most drug co hq's are in NJ, NY, DE, Raleigh/Durham, Boston or Ca so you are limited somewhat geographically. Log onto some of the drug websites and look at their job postings (Merck, Astra Zeneca, Glaxo, etc.) Put M.D. in as a keyword and you will see what jobs they have. MBA's help here but a definitely not a requirement. If you are really interested in drug trials, several schools have certificates and masters in Clinical Research. Try MGH, BU. These folks are the ones that are going to be the big-wigs that get higher up in management after 10 yrs. If you go towards the Marketing side of Pharma, an MBA would be more of a plus. For an entry level job, I don't think you'd have much of a problem getting in with an MD/MBA. You would be able to "talk the talk" easily but you really will not be using your medical knowledge. Another alternative is to go the sales rep route. No MBA needed. This would allow you easy entry and you wouldn't need mcuh training. Base pay is low (say $50K) but commissions can be very high. You could end up making $100-150K easily. I would get the MBA after you have some experience at that.

    There's also consulting jobs at Accenture (Authur Anderson). There's many more - don't know offhand. Do a google on healthcare consulting. These jobs involve lots of travel. Oftentimes you're in another city for months at a time. If you're single and don't have a SO this might be a good route. Also device companies hire MD's to help demo their products, collect info. Can't think of any offhand.

    There also biotech. These are located everywhere - lots of opportunity. Might want to get some research under your belt - a few months. Pay may be minimal at first but employees are often given stock options that could pay off big time.


    There's also the financial side of medicine. Working at a investment firm, advising on medical deals, etc. I now one guy who graduated with MD, no MBA, a finance major in college who went out to SF and is working for an investment company advising on medical stocks, etc.

    As far as licensure - you cannot "practice" medicine or write a prescription until you have a license. Of course, I don't know who would be comfortable practicing medicine now with only one yr of PG training. This is how it was done in the old days. You cannot get a license in any state until you have passed Step 3 AND completed one year of post-grad work. Only one state (TN) will let you take Step 3 w/o being in a post-grad program. But you cannot get licensed until you finish the PG yr. Several states will let you take Step 3 when you are in the midst of PGY-1 and the other states require that your have finished PGY-1 before you can take Step 3. There's a website that list which states require what. Can't remember it offhand.

    So my advice is to finish at least 1 year of PG training and get your license unless you plan to never-ever have anything to do with medicine again.

    FYI - I am now applying to do a residency. After that I may still try to join a pharma.
  30. Matterhorne

    Matterhorne New Member

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    Hello Everyone, I would like to share my perspective with you. I completed my MD/MBA in 2001. I opted to do an internship year so I could finish step III. I do not regret it, in fact I’m very glad I did it, though it hasn’t really been of any benefit to me, career wise.

    When I finished my internship I immediately started looking for jobs. I must say that I was very disappointed with my prospects. Most of the jobs I found that fit what I thought I was worth (150k+) required board certification and 10 years of experience. I remember thinking to myself, “geez, they only want to pay $180,000 for a board certified oncologist with 10 years of medical management experience and 10 years of clinical experience?!”
    It was a rude awakening.

    I’ve heard of the investment bankers and the mutual fund managers with the combined MD/MBA degrees who are making tons of money now, but I couldn’t even find an entry level job (that paid more than 80k/year) in those fields. On the other hand, I have always had an entrepreneurial spirit and, I think, deep down, I didn’t want to look hard for a job where I would be working for somebody else. After all, if I wanted to be an employee, I’d have stayed practicing medicine.

    So, here’s my story. I took some time off in 2002 and got serious at the beginning of 2003. In 2003 I, technically lived below the poverty line. In 2004 I, technically, lived below the poverty line. I could barely afford to clothe myself and at one point I had to borrow money from my roommate just to pay rent, I was about 3 months away from being the most well-educated, unemployed, homeless guy ever.…..that was the downside. Here’s the upside….

    Since 2002 I have started 4 different businesses – I’m working on a fifth. Though I lived in poverty for two years working 13 hour days without vacation or any real days off (I still don’t take many days off), this year my income will be about 125k. More importantly, I have a business whose revenue next year will be between 2 million and 5 million dollars. My income next year will be between 300k and 700k. So things are now looking up.

    When I started examining the choices I had made last year (while still living in poverty) I thought that I might have made a mistake not finishing residency. My friends were finishing up their residencies and all had promising careers ahead of them. I only had what I had made for myself and, at the time, it wasn’t much. I even half-heartedly signed up for the match again and very nearly went back into residency (it was my back-up plan).

    Now when I compare myself to my friends, most of them hate their jobs and envy me for having the guts to do what I did. I used to sit on the surgery wards as a third year medical students and think to myself, “why would any of these a-holes do a surgery residency, why would anybody voluntarily work 100 hours/week for 5 years and get paid 35k?” The truth is, I still work 70 to 90 hours per week. But the key is that I love what I do.

    Did the MD/MBA help? You bet it did. People respect the MD degree. It adds a perception of integrity, validity and security to everything you do. The MBA sets you apart from all the other MDs out there. The MD/MBA gets your foot in the door, but what happens after that is up to you. If you want to be a success, you have to work very hard, you have to produce results, you have to be reliable, predictable and ethical (I never thought I would ever say “ethical”, but your reputation is everything).

    If you have strong people skills or strong sales skills, you probably don’t need the extra security of residency training. You’ll be able to create success wherever you find yourself. If you struggle with people skills, you should probably get the extra training unless you have a line on a good job somewhere.

    Regardless, I would definitely recommend finishing your internship year. Get your license and keep it up to date. It is a safety net that will make you more able to take the greater risks that ultimately lead to the greater rewards. If your business plans go belly-up at least you can always be a doctor – not many people can say that.
  31. deringer

    deringer Junior Member

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    Great post!


  32. Shredder

    Shredder User

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    best post ive ever seen, period. matterhorne youre a marked man, eventually i may pester you for advice ;)

    whered you go for schooling, did you like it? safety net...something that seems commonly and conveniently ignored in light of romanticized dreams and aspirations
    :laugh: you just beat me to it

    this is a good thread, 5 star vote. im saving this page, i need something to keep me going when i have doubts or encounter friction
  33. DrJosephKim

    DrJosephKim Advisor SDN Advisor

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    It's a wonderful story. Unfortunately, the days of getting a medical license after an internship are disappearing. Back in the old days, people could practice as a general practitioner (GP) after only an internship. Those days are gone. Most states require that you complete a residency in order to get a license.

    The bottom line is: if you have an MD, that will help you get your foot in the door. What happens next is completely up to you.

    Also - the other important fact is 'networking.'

    In the world of business, who you know is often more important than what you know. That's especially true if you're a physician in the non-clinical world.
  34. michaelrack

    michaelrack All In at the wrong time SDN Advisor

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    Most states require 1-2 years of residency training for a US grad, and 3 years for an FMG before licensure. To contract with most insurance companies does require board cert/elgibility. Most hospitals also require you to be bc/be for staff privileges.
  35. Xardas

    Xardas

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    I think you can do stuff like immigration physicals etc. without board cert/eligibility but i'm not sure. I think they pay very poorly however.
  36. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......

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    yeah, trying to do clinical medicine with a 1-2 year degree is really not worth it.
  37. aksgeh

    aksgeh

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    i havent been working for 4 years and dont have the most impressive resume. but i just want a job that is somehow medically relevant. can anyone help me?
  38. DrJosephKim

    DrJosephKim Advisor SDN Advisor

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    You need to provide a bit more information.

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