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MD/PhD in Neuros Science and pharmacoloy Question??
- Thread starter spursss
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You should get your PhD in what you want to get your PhD in. Going into oto should have nothing to do with which type of PhD you get.
Sounds good, and that was what I was thinking. However, when it is hard for me to find a dual degree ENT in Neuroscience and Pharmacology I begin to think that maybe I am doing something wrong. I appreciate your response!!!
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My PhD was in molecular biology and in a field completely unrelated to ENT.
When I interview several years ago, no one really cared what it was in, nor really much else about it.
In fact, many programs were trying to push me towards the 7 year tracts in order to do more OTO specific research - which I was not interested in at the time.
If you want to go into ENT, my personal opinion is that the combined degree neither helps, nor hurts. It adds 3-5 years more to your training. Your research interests will likely change in residency, and it is exremely hard to continue productive basic science research when in residency - especially if you become married with children.
Personally, I wouldn't do a combined degree again, if given the choice. But that's me - and everyone is different. As a soon to be PGY-4, it would be nice to be several years ahead in training and done with residency at this point.
You can always do research in residency or opt for a K-08, K-23 or R-03 as junior faculty to get the bench research required to be active and productive - plus with these routes, the $$$ is substantially more than as a MD/PhD student (plus there is loan payback programs) and your research interests will be more in-line with clinical interests - as a student I would venture that you aren't really in a position yet to even know what possibilities even exist clinically.
Moreover, it is extremely difficult to be active at the bench and be a surgeon. To build a lab - you'd be looking at 2-3 days a week in the lab, 1-2 days of clinic and maybe a day of operating a week - hard to build a practice with such little time in the clinic. Funding for research is not what it used to be - thanks to the current administration. Current R-01 acceptance rates are ~11% - and you are competing against people with PhD's and 1+ post-docs and who spend all of their time in the lab - it has been demonstrated in multiple studies that the MD/PhD does not give the grant applicant any advantage over an MD or a PhD as their sole degree.
If financing medical school is a worry - don't let it be. Student loan payback will not be an issue once you are done -
Regardless, best of luck.
Leforte
PS - one more thing - your interest in ENT may change once you get to clinicals. I know of dozens of people both at my medical school and students who have rotated with us throughout residency that were seriously interested in ENT, then realized that "Yes, cool surgeries, but ENT doesn't stand for Easy Nights and Tennis and that I'll be living the life of a SURGEON - I think I'll do Anesthesia/Radiology/pick your favorite lifestyle, big money specialty."
When I interview several years ago, no one really cared what it was in, nor really much else about it.
In fact, many programs were trying to push me towards the 7 year tracts in order to do more OTO specific research - which I was not interested in at the time.
If you want to go into ENT, my personal opinion is that the combined degree neither helps, nor hurts. It adds 3-5 years more to your training. Your research interests will likely change in residency, and it is exremely hard to continue productive basic science research when in residency - especially if you become married with children.
Personally, I wouldn't do a combined degree again, if given the choice. But that's me - and everyone is different. As a soon to be PGY-4, it would be nice to be several years ahead in training and done with residency at this point.
You can always do research in residency or opt for a K-08, K-23 or R-03 as junior faculty to get the bench research required to be active and productive - plus with these routes, the $$$ is substantially more than as a MD/PhD student (plus there is loan payback programs) and your research interests will be more in-line with clinical interests - as a student I would venture that you aren't really in a position yet to even know what possibilities even exist clinically.
Moreover, it is extremely difficult to be active at the bench and be a surgeon. To build a lab - you'd be looking at 2-3 days a week in the lab, 1-2 days of clinic and maybe a day of operating a week - hard to build a practice with such little time in the clinic. Funding for research is not what it used to be - thanks to the current administration. Current R-01 acceptance rates are ~11% - and you are competing against people with PhD's and 1+ post-docs and who spend all of their time in the lab - it has been demonstrated in multiple studies that the MD/PhD does not give the grant applicant any advantage over an MD or a PhD as their sole degree.
If financing medical school is a worry - don't let it be. Student loan payback will not be an issue once you are done -
Regardless, best of luck.
Leforte
PS - one more thing - your interest in ENT may change once you get to clinicals. I know of dozens of people both at my medical school and students who have rotated with us throughout residency that were seriously interested in ENT, then realized that "Yes, cool surgeries, but ENT doesn't stand for Easy Nights and Tennis and that I'll be living the life of a SURGEON - I think I'll do Anesthesia/Radiology/pick your favorite lifestyle, big money specialty."
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I just matched into ENT out of an MD-PhD program. I would say that having the PhD *definitely* was attractive to programs when I was applying, even though my PhD was in a field pretty far from ENT. As Leforte points out, some programs do try and pigeonhole you into a 7-year track. I ended up not doing a 7-year track because I'm not totally sure what I want to do clinically. Also as Leforte points out, there are definitely difficulties with being a surgeon-scientist down the road.
Where I would disagree with Leforte a little bit is in the possibility or ease of winning a K-08 or K-23 with only the (typically) 6 months of research allowed by many ENT residency programs and with no PhD. I think that even getting a K award with just 6 months of research is very difficult, particularly when many of the physicians you will compete with to win a K are in medicine-related fields and have done 1+ years of a dedicated postdoctoral research fellowship. I believe the PhD will help you a LOT to use those 6 months in a maximally productive way, since ideally you'll have many or all of the tools of molecular biology/biochemistry easily at your disposal. You'll also be able to think about experiments in a very clear way, since you've done it for 3-5 years. That's the hope, anyway.
Maybe that's all a pipe dream in any case, since it's probably impossible to finish any sort of a serious basic science project in 6 months. I guess I'll find out.
Where I would disagree with Leforte a little bit is in the possibility or ease of winning a K-08 or K-23 with only the (typically) 6 months of research allowed by many ENT residency programs and with no PhD. I think that even getting a K award with just 6 months of research is very difficult, particularly when many of the physicians you will compete with to win a K are in medicine-related fields and have done 1+ years of a dedicated postdoctoral research fellowship. I believe the PhD will help you a LOT to use those 6 months in a maximally productive way, since ideally you'll have many or all of the tools of molecular biology/biochemistry easily at your disposal. You'll also be able to think about experiments in a very clear way, since you've done it for 3-5 years. That's the hope, anyway.
Maybe that's all a pipe dream in any case, since it's probably impossible to finish any sort of a serious basic science project in 6 months. I guess I'll find out.
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K research awards are specific to the each institute within the NIH. For ENT, we fall under the NIDCD (National Institute of Deafness and Communicative Disorders). We are the only MD's who apply to this institute, with other applicants typically being Audiology/Speech PhDs and AuDs. Typical acceptance rates are around 55-60%, for all applicants through the NIDCD and I've been told over 80% for MD applicants, with or without a PhD (Although this is unconfirmed). Overall, K-08s have around a 35% acceptance rate, so we are fortunate in ENT to be within the NIDCD. You will not be applying against Medicine trained MDs for these grants -
The key to obtaining a K-08 or K-23 grant is not the research that is done in residency (although one most do this) - it is that the sponsoring mentor for the grant holds an R-01 and has a track record of producing independent investigators, in addition to ensuring that as a junior faculty surgeon, your Chairman supports protected research time (which not all do, especially since time in the lab = no clinical money). the K-08 requires that you spend 75% of your time in the lab - that is 3-4 days! Leaving only 1-2 days for clinics and operating
Take a look at University of Washington's faculty - several there hold K-08s.
The key to obtaining a K-08 or K-23 grant is not the research that is done in residency (although one most do this) - it is that the sponsoring mentor for the grant holds an R-01 and has a track record of producing independent investigators, in addition to ensuring that as a junior faculty surgeon, your Chairman supports protected research time (which not all do, especially since time in the lab = no clinical money). the K-08 requires that you spend 75% of your time in the lab - that is 3-4 days! Leaving only 1-2 days for clinics and operating
Take a look at University of Washington's faculty - several there hold K-08s.
