Shall we start such a thread? If everyone could write down a few words about their experience/impression/tips from each school, we should have a wealth of information. I'll be able to make my first contribution after next week. Good luck!
MD/PhD Interview Experience 08-09
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I've been writing these in my MDApps, so I'll just copy/paste from there:
Texas A&M (09/10-09/11)
This was a two-day interview across multiple campuses of TAMHSC. The first day was for the MD/PhD, followed by interviews with the medical school on the next day. The MD/PhD consisted of 3 interviews with members of the Steering Committee, a journal club, a tour of the campus, and dinner with MD/PhD students. I really liked College Station. It was hot, but everyone was very friendly. The second day was the MD-only interview day. I began in College Station, where I interviewed with the Chair of the Curriculum Committee. After a tour of the gross anatomy laboratory and the library, I then drove to the Temple campus. This is a large clinical campus whose hospital is run by Scott & White (top-15 teaching hospital). I interviewed with a pathologist there, and his interview was probably the most difficult on the trip. We then toured the facilities, and I learned about their new regenerative medicine laboratory and cancer center. Overall, my impression of the Temple campus was excellent, and I would prefer matriculation to this location over College Station. The trip ended with a visit from Hurricane Ike.
Johns Hopkins (9/25-9/26)
This was a wonderful interview experience. Hopkins set me up with a student host who was a current MD/PhD student. The first day consisted of a short meeting with the program director, followed by lunch with current MD/PhD students, and two interviews. The second day involved two interviews at the Homewood campus in biomedical engineering and another MD interview in the afternoon. I found that this program gives excellent flexibility, many opportunities in BME and the School of Public Health, strong collegiality among departments, and an amazing familial atmosphere. The greatest selling point of the program has to be the administration and the cooperation/friendliness of the students.
Dartmouth (10/7-10/8)
I went into Dartmouth with a skeptical attitude. It is a distance from home, and I never thought I'd fit in at an Ivy League school. However, I was thoroughly impressed with the collegiality among students, collaborations between professors, quality of education, quality of research, and the beautiful environment of New Hampshire. Needless to say, there will never be a time when I will lack things to do. The first interview day was for the MD admissions process, consisting of two MD-only interviews. The second day, the MD/PhD day, was much more rigorous. It began with a Committee interview, where 8-9 bigwigs at Dartmouth simultaneously bombarded me with questions. Following this were 6 more 30-minute interviews. Though tired, I fell in love with this small school by the end. The small class size (3-4 MD/PhD students per year) was very attractive, as a lot of personal attention would be given.
Hope this stuff helps!
Texas A&M (09/10-09/11)
This was a two-day interview across multiple campuses of TAMHSC. The first day was for the MD/PhD, followed by interviews with the medical school on the next day. The MD/PhD consisted of 3 interviews with members of the Steering Committee, a journal club, a tour of the campus, and dinner with MD/PhD students. I really liked College Station. It was hot, but everyone was very friendly. The second day was the MD-only interview day. I began in College Station, where I interviewed with the Chair of the Curriculum Committee. After a tour of the gross anatomy laboratory and the library, I then drove to the Temple campus. This is a large clinical campus whose hospital is run by Scott & White (top-15 teaching hospital). I interviewed with a pathologist there, and his interview was probably the most difficult on the trip. We then toured the facilities, and I learned about their new regenerative medicine laboratory and cancer center. Overall, my impression of the Temple campus was excellent, and I would prefer matriculation to this location over College Station. The trip ended with a visit from Hurricane Ike.
Johns Hopkins (9/25-9/26)
This was a wonderful interview experience. Hopkins set me up with a student host who was a current MD/PhD student. The first day consisted of a short meeting with the program director, followed by lunch with current MD/PhD students, and two interviews. The second day involved two interviews at the Homewood campus in biomedical engineering and another MD interview in the afternoon. I found that this program gives excellent flexibility, many opportunities in BME and the School of Public Health, strong collegiality among departments, and an amazing familial atmosphere. The greatest selling point of the program has to be the administration and the cooperation/friendliness of the students.
Dartmouth (10/7-10/8)
I went into Dartmouth with a skeptical attitude. It is a distance from home, and I never thought I'd fit in at an Ivy League school. However, I was thoroughly impressed with the collegiality among students, collaborations between professors, quality of education, quality of research, and the beautiful environment of New Hampshire. Needless to say, there will never be a time when I will lack things to do. The first interview day was for the MD admissions process, consisting of two MD-only interviews. The second day, the MD/PhD day, was much more rigorous. It began with a Committee interview, where 8-9 bigwigs at Dartmouth simultaneously bombarded me with questions. Following this were 6 more 30-minute interviews. Though tired, I fell in love with this small school by the end. The small class size (3-4 MD/PhD students per year) was very attractive, as a lot of personal attention would be given.
Hope this stuff helps!
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NYU:
It is one and half days of interview process. The first half day is not the part of evaluation
. We basically sat in one of the MSTP seminars where a researcher was presenting his work. After that, we had time to chat with current students and had dinner. The view from the dinner room was STUNNING. It was overlooking the Hudson river (I think)!!
The second day was the real deal. You start with the presentation by the director and quick breakfast. Than I had 3 MSTP interviews and one MD interview. All the interviews were very low stress (I was expecting the 3rd degree, but other than a few off the wall questions, everything else was fine). You have lunch in between your interviews. We were done by 5.30 with a wrap up session. We went to all you can eat sushi...awesome (and unlimited sake, but I abstained as it does not look good to drink during "interview" IMHO).
I was positively impressed with new biomedical facility while the anatomy lab reminded me of a dungon. The dorm rooms were tiny (but decent by NYC standards).
Overall, I would say low stress interivew. I enjoyed interactions with current students. I came away with impression that they all wanted to ve there in the close-knit community. The research facilities and faculties are awesome. The medical school infastrcture could use some more help.
It is one and half days of interview process. The first half day is not the part of evaluation
. We basically sat in one of the MSTP seminars where a researcher was presenting his work. After that, we had time to chat with current students and had dinner. The view from the dinner room was STUNNING. It was overlooking the Hudson river (I think)!!The second day was the real deal. You start with the presentation by the director and quick breakfast. Than I had 3 MSTP interviews and one MD interview. All the interviews were very low stress (I was expecting the 3rd degree, but other than a few off the wall questions, everything else was fine). You have lunch in between your interviews. We were done by 5.30 with a wrap up session. We went to all you can eat sushi...awesome (and unlimited sake, but I abstained as it does not look good to drink during "interview" IMHO).
I was positively impressed with new biomedical facility while the anatomy lab reminded me of a dungon. The dorm rooms were tiny (but decent by NYC standards).
Overall, I would say low stress interivew. I enjoyed interactions with current students. I came away with impression that they all wanted to ve there in the close-knit community. The research facilities and faculties are awesome. The medical school infastrcture could use some more help.
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it was the east river. columbia overlooks the hudson, and cornell and nyu overlook the east river. mt sinai overlooks central park. nyc's medical schools have some good views.
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I took a little too much social psychology, so I recognize sales pitches when I see them and am really good at this sort of thing, which is probably more of a curse cause you recognize it everywhere. I'll impart some of this on you since you'll almost never meet the 10th year who would never ever do this again or maybe the entire crop of say 6th years who, to put it succinctly, would say "Yeesh, listen to us now. I'm glad there are no first years around--they'd probably kill themselves."
This process is as much about selling the school to you as it is you selling yourself to the school. All the MD/PhD programs dote on you far more than MD programs and try to make it a happy, friendly, smily environment for the applicants. Yayyyy, that way you can have gutfeel for the program that put on the most smiles and had the chipperest first years!!! I am saying this tounge in cheek, but schools know this is a sales pitch on both sides. None of the people who post in this thread have anything negative to say. Almost nobody ever will, except procedural crap about/during the interview that has no bearing on the 8 years +/- 1 you'll spend at the program. You'll never get a sense of the downsides of a program or anything even anything objective by which to rate them. If you try, people will look at you kind of funny and you'll start to notice rejections arriving. So you get a sales pitch, and many of the applicants repeat the sales pitches on here for all to see. I bet an administrator somewhere in an office will read this thread and think about what their school needed to do a better job selling... All the schools who used to have stressful interviews stopped doing it. It biases the candidate's entire review if anything was painful. Except for maybe a few places like WashU that still have a little owie pinch in the form of a brief committee interview. But they mitigate it by letting you call room service.
So relax and enjoy. Unless on the inside you are a hateful jerk. In that case put on a smiley face and pretend to be a decent person for a day or two. It's not that hard. That includes for your student host. I know they're not evaluating but for the love of god don't puke in my trash can (and if you do take it out!), tell me you want to have a good time in the city but tell me later you're getting in at 11PM and leaving right after the interview, leave your boots in my apartment and then want change for the $10 you sent me to ship them back, etc... etc... etc...
True tips to MD/PhD interviewing:
1) Most of the interviews don't count. Ok, if you punch the reviewer or fall asleep it might. You meet with people you request (or maybe a bunch of people you didn't, cause everyone was "out of town" aka: out of funding/a total dickhead). They talk for an hour. You try to nod and can't get in a word edgewise. If you read their papers in prep for these interviews I will laugh at you and you will stop after your first interview because you realize you never talk.
2) There are one or two interviews that do count. They're usually easy to spot. Meeting with the director or asst. director. If you come here I'll point out the important ones for you. But you'll realize it counts because you do most of the talking and get the important questions.
a) Why MD/PhD? Why not MD alone? Why not PhD alone?
b) Tell me about your research.
3) The students are probably evaluating, but just to make sure you aren't a nut, toolshed, racist, or anything else... Don't call your student tour guide a total nerd and make fun of him every time you see him (unless this really is your last choice and you're convinced you're going to Harvard/MIT anyhow). Yes, this happened to me.
Good luck. Don't stress.
This process is as much about selling the school to you as it is you selling yourself to the school. All the MD/PhD programs dote on you far more than MD programs and try to make it a happy, friendly, smily environment for the applicants. Yayyyy, that way you can have gutfeel for the program that put on the most smiles and had the chipperest first years!!! I am saying this tounge in cheek, but schools know this is a sales pitch on both sides. None of the people who post in this thread have anything negative to say. Almost nobody ever will, except procedural crap about/during the interview that has no bearing on the 8 years +/- 1 you'll spend at the program. You'll never get a sense of the downsides of a program or anything even anything objective by which to rate them. If you try, people will look at you kind of funny and you'll start to notice rejections arriving. So you get a sales pitch, and many of the applicants repeat the sales pitches on here for all to see. I bet an administrator somewhere in an office will read this thread and think about what their school needed to do a better job selling... All the schools who used to have stressful interviews stopped doing it. It biases the candidate's entire review if anything was painful. Except for maybe a few places like WashU that still have a little owie pinch in the form of a brief committee interview. But they mitigate it by letting you call room service.
So relax and enjoy. Unless on the inside you are a hateful jerk. In that case put on a smiley face and pretend to be a decent person for a day or two. It's not that hard. That includes for your student host. I know they're not evaluating but for the love of god don't puke in my trash can (and if you do take it out!), tell me you want to have a good time in the city but tell me later you're getting in at 11PM and leaving right after the interview, leave your boots in my apartment and then want change for the $10 you sent me to ship them back, etc... etc... etc...
True tips to MD/PhD interviewing:
1) Most of the interviews don't count. Ok, if you punch the reviewer or fall asleep it might. You meet with people you request (or maybe a bunch of people you didn't, cause everyone was "out of town" aka: out of funding/a total dickhead). They talk for an hour. You try to nod and can't get in a word edgewise. If you read their papers in prep for these interviews I will laugh at you and you will stop after your first interview because you realize you never talk.
2) There are one or two interviews that do count. They're usually easy to spot. Meeting with the director or asst. director. If you come here I'll point out the important ones for you. But you'll realize it counts because you do most of the talking and get the important questions.
a) Why MD/PhD? Why not MD alone? Why not PhD alone?
b) Tell me about your research.
3) The students are probably evaluating, but just to make sure you aren't a nut, toolshed, racist, or anything else... Don't call your student tour guide a total nerd and make fun of him every time you see him (unless this really is your last choice and you're convinced you're going to Harvard/MIT anyhow). Yes, this happened to me.
Good luck. Don't stress.
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Neuronix -
I know some programs have varying graduation times, and a lot of the numbers don't reflect how easily students can realistically graduate in 7-8 years. This is important, but it is something that only older students can really discuss.
How do we go about finding this information on the interview trail? They can throw numbers at us, but that doesn't mean much. For example, a school may have an average of 8.2 years, but that could be because some students were "stuck" for 12 years while others could graduate in as little as 6.5. Some programs are more rigid and enforce ~4 years in the graduate years for MD/PhD students. This is tough to find other than by word of mouth.
Additionally, some argue that a more flexible time in the graduate years is better than trying to enforce a strict graduation time. I'd like to learn this, but I .. don't know where..
I know some programs have varying graduation times, and a lot of the numbers don't reflect how easily students can realistically graduate in 7-8 years. This is important, but it is something that only older students can really discuss.
How do we go about finding this information on the interview trail? They can throw numbers at us, but that doesn't mean much. For example, a school may have an average of 8.2 years, but that could be because some students were "stuck" for 12 years while others could graduate in as little as 6.5. Some programs are more rigid and enforce ~4 years in the graduate years for MD/PhD students. This is tough to find other than by word of mouth.
Additionally, some argue that a more flexible time in the graduate years is better than trying to enforce a strict graduation time. I'd like to learn this, but I .. don't know where..
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I'm not that old! I know I'm going bald but don't point it out!!! *cry*
You are absolutely right. There's 3 problems I see that interfere with your ability to make a measurement with a graduation-time-o-meter.
1) It's a moving target. Nationally the time has been increasing for years. I wrote about this in one of my blog entires. When I started the average for those graduating really was a little over 7.5 years. When you look over the past 5 years, that average is now right about 8.0 years. This is true nationally and if you look at old data the national average used to even go as low as an average of 6.5 years! Does this mean if you start now your class's average time will be 8.5 years? I don't know.
2) Within a program it can vary pretty widely within graduate groups. This is in my blog too. This is a big reason why I switched out of Neuroscience at my own school.
3) Lies damn lies and statistics. If you look over the life of a program the older, larger programs will have a lower average time to graduation because it really did used to take less time. I called JHopRevisit out on this in another thread (and made him a very flustered first year, just like I do all the first years here!). Sure, the average time to graduation for Hopkins was 7.2 over the life of the program, but now it's ~7.7 years (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6807788&postcount=11). Ours is 7.5x, but now it's about 8.0 years. Should you quibble about .3 years? Personally I'd say no, but I'll leave that for you to decide. What I like to be on the lookout are programs that are far above the average.
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.... This is the other thing that interferes with your graduation-o-meter. Spin! Our students get real PhDs! Those guys love it so much they want to stay (if you hear this shout LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE and blame it on me)! A year of teaching is a vital part of getting a PhD! Our two years of courses are vital to your development as a scientist! We don't force anything, it's totally flexible (which could mean: good luck sucker, we're not going to bat for you when your committee ****s you).
The reality is that if a program has a high standard deviation it probably has a wide variation in graduate groups/PhD programs. Averages are averages for a reason. I'm going to assume students at every school are roughly equal. Some will work real hard. Some won't. Some will get projects that work. Some won't. The average is influenced by things above and beyond a student. If the average is high, think about where that comes from. Teaching requirements? Waste of time for MD/PhD. Lots of courses required? Red flag. Lots of 4th year requirements? Red flag.
I imagine there is a huge variation for a school like say Tri-I that has students split off into so many different graduate groups like Rockafeller whose Neuroscience cirriculum is basically entirely optional. I think if you broke down graduation time by graduate group here you'd find some are much more 7-8 while some are much more 8-10.
This is why I keep threatening to use the FOIA to get at the results of MSTP grants, and everytime I mention this I get really nervous faculty members to tell me not to do it. Why!? What are you hiding!? The reality is you probably won't know unless you ask the right senior students at many programs. Unfortunately, there's not many guys like me out there, and you probably won't ever get to meet them.
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Thanks Neuronix. These are really helpful points.
I will probably look into more specific details about PhD requirements if I get an offer or two. Once the schools narrow down my opportunities by letter (hehe), then I'll narrow them down myself.
Researching each school's requirements is a lot to consider right now. I just know some schools have been notorious for "infinite graduation time".. which is rough in an already long program.
PS - Sorry to derail first of all. And should we all agree Neuronix needs to lay off the coffee
I will probably look into more specific details about PhD requirements if I get an offer or two. Once the schools narrow down my opportunities by letter (hehe), then I'll narrow them down myself.
Researching each school's requirements is a lot to consider right now. I just know some schools have been notorious for "infinite graduation time".. which is rough in an already long program.
PS - Sorry to derail first of all. And should we all agree Neuronix needs to lay off the coffee
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I have the same strategy...let them pick me first and than if i have more than one to choose from, I will.
I think Neuronix needs to try decaf...JK! His insights are right on the point and very helpful...thanks.
I think Neuronix needs to try decaf...JK!
His insights are right on the point and very helpful...thanks.
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Suck up.
haha But yeah, I agree. Okay, need to work on my thesis now...
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^^ I am trying but I do not think he has influence on getting me UPenn invite. LOL.
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Not only do I have no influence, but I'm taking a year leave of absence in a few weeks. I won't be anywhere near here when you interview or even start your program.
Still, I won't shut up and you're still welcome to pester me.
Still, I won't shut up and you're still welcome to pester me.
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Ha ha, having been talked into hosting (and leading groups) over the years this is right on!
Also:
* Don't ask your host to pick you up at the airport - not everyone has cars and this is what taxis or trains are for. I bet even your bf/gf doesn't like doing this so a STRANGER doing you a FAVOR certainly won't.
* On that note, feel free to ask for a drink/snack at my place or ask to adjust the temperature. Don't eat the entire contents of my fridge, ask me to go to the grocery store because you are so particular (bring snacks if so), or turn the temperature on my thermostat up to 85 degrees in winter and leave it on all day! Seriously, my heat bill is bad enough already...
*Also, and this is perhaps most important, if you go out to dinner or an evening out with current students, don't get ****-faced drunk. I know you are all undergrads and such but this IS an interview. And even if the meal is covered, the program doesn't want you ordering a round of shots for the whole bar. Don't be that guy or girl. You will be remembered. You can drink, just drink the way you would if you were having dinner with your old and strict great aunt or your college professor or something, not the way you would at your homeboy's kegger.
Johns Hopkins
Everyone at my session (6 total) had 5 interviews total over two days. Some had all 5 in one day, most were a 2-3 split. Things I noticed:
1. The interviews really weren't bad and are meant to be friendly/low-stress. Most of my interviews were professors talking at me (more recruiting than evaluating, and this was the case for everyone else). The professors also walk you from bldg to bldg after interviews just to make sure you don't get lost. The students are also extremely friendly and active in the program. There's always someone (usually a group of people) at the MD/PhD office to answer questions and walk you to your interviews. Most of us also got picked up/dropped off at the airport.
2. Very few surprises at the actual interviews. Know the basic questions, e. g. why md/phd. I didn't get any policy/health care q's.
3. Pack lightly. It makes traveling so much easier. You just have to have money for meals at the airport (and maybe some money to call a cab just in case), everything else is well taken care of.
Very nice experience in general. Everyone generally have very good interviews. When it comes to making decisions regarding the candidates, it's more like splitting fine hairs, according to one of the committee members.
Everyone at my session (6 total) had 5 interviews total over two days. Some had all 5 in one day, most were a 2-3 split. Things I noticed:
1. The interviews really weren't bad and are meant to be friendly/low-stress. Most of my interviews were professors talking at me (more recruiting than evaluating, and this was the case for everyone else). The professors also walk you from bldg to bldg after interviews just to make sure you don't get lost. The students are also extremely friendly and active in the program. There's always someone (usually a group of people) at the MD/PhD office to answer questions and walk you to your interviews. Most of us also got picked up/dropped off at the airport.
2. Very few surprises at the actual interviews. Know the basic questions, e. g. why md/phd. I didn't get any policy/health care q's.
3. Pack lightly. It makes traveling so much easier. You just have to have money for meals at the airport (and maybe some money to call a cab just in case), everything else is well taken care of.
Very nice experience in general. Everyone generally have very good interviews. When it comes to making decisions regarding the candidates, it's more like splitting fine hairs, according to one of the committee members.
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....
And eventually you just wish you had a recorder for some of the questions.
Oh, and you also begin to appreciate the unexpected questions as the season progresses! At least I do..
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Originally wrote a reply a Neuronix calling me out up there, but decided to scrap it, don't really want to get into this again, do we Neuronix?
Just so people don't get the wrong impression, though, our time to graduation tracked upward from 7.2 to 7.7 in the past five years, which may be real or it may be a blip, we don't know, and anyway the main point I was arguing was that you can complete a solid MD-PhD in 7 years, which Neuronix said was impossible, but is true at many schools (please follow the link he provided if you're interested). On the whole, I guess my point is that MD-PhDs can be quite fun despite a few people not being happy with their situation, not everyone is quite as cynical as Neuronix, and people do complete MD-PhDs in a decent amount of time, with few problems, and are quite happy about it. You give a lot of good advice, Neuro, i just thought you'd lay off the cynicism after you graduated.
Just so people don't get the wrong impression, though, our time to graduation tracked upward from 7.2 to 7.7 in the past five years, which may be real or it may be a blip, we don't know, and anyway the main point I was arguing was that you can complete a solid MD-PhD in 7 years, which Neuronix said was impossible, but is true at many schools (please follow the link he provided if you're interested). On the whole, I guess my point is that MD-PhDs can be quite fun despite a few people not being happy with their situation, not everyone is quite as cynical as Neuronix, and people do complete MD-PhDs in a decent amount of time, with few problems, and are quite happy about it. You give a lot of good advice, Neuro, i just thought you'd lay off the cynicism after you graduated.
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Also, are we referring to mean time to graduation, or median?
It seems to me from the previous posts that we're discussing mean time to graduation, which will by nature be skewed upward.
Very few people will complete an MD/PhD early, so there wont be many 6-year plans to bring the average down, and those that there are can only affect the mean slightly. It wouldn't be unrealistic to say that out of a mudphud class of 15, one might be on a 10-year-plan, which alone would bring the average time-to-degree up noticeably
There's more space to overshoot the 7-year-mark than to undershoot it, so means don't tell you too much
That isn't to say they're meaningless though. I'd feel better off going into a program that has few students that stay past the "ordinary" time span
It seems to me from the previous posts that we're discussing mean time to graduation, which will by nature be skewed upward.
Very few people will complete an MD/PhD early, so there wont be many 6-year plans to bring the average down, and those that there are can only affect the mean slightly. It wouldn't be unrealistic to say that out of a mudphud class of 15, one might be on a 10-year-plan, which alone would bring the average time-to-degree up noticeably
There's more space to overshoot the 7-year-mark than to undershoot it, so means don't tell you too much
That isn't to say they're meaningless though. I'd feel better off going into a program that has few students that stay past the "ordinary" time span
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Originally wrote a reply a Neuronix calling me out up there, but decided to scrap it, don't really want to get into this again, do we Neuronix?
Sure we do
I greatly respect those who disagree with me, so there's no hard feelings. I only point you out cause you're one of my favorite posters and I hope you won't take it personally.This is a national trend, and if you get the data for the 20 years preceding nationally you will see it has been consistantly tracking upwards. My guess is that it's the same for Hopkins as well. Will it fall like the Dow? I doubt it, unless major changes are made, and this was the point of one of my blog entries.
I don't recall saying that? I am on track to complete my MD/PhD in 7 years, and have written many posts and a blog entry about how you might graduate in 7 years yourself. I constantly try to advise young students about how to get out quickly. My argument is that the average is closer to 8 years than 7 (or over that) at every program of which I'm aware and as a result you should think of a MD/PhD program as being a 8 year +/- 1 year program currently. My worry is that since it has tracked up so much in the past 5 years, applicants may now be walking into a 8.5 year +/- 1 year program. If I didn't make that clear in the past I apologize and I will edit such posts.
To be frank, I am the least cynical MD/PhD I personally know who is at my level or higher. If you get to 6th year and still think MD/PhD programs are fun and most students are happy, more power to you. I don't know anyone at this stage who hasn't been seriously depressed at least once and maybe constantly. At a class party this sentiment was well shared among my classmates and I came out seeming the least pessimistic about MD/PhD, science, etc... This is of course not including the several people that have dropped the program altogether.
The difference is that I am always open and honest about what I think and most people won't say negative things. How many senior MD/PhD students do you see posting on this forum? I can think of a few. Sluox. Brunette1981. gstrub. gbwillner. My apologies for anyone I've forgotten on that list. But the point is, if you look at what I have to say versus what they have to say we tend to disagree little and on points unrelated to the current discussion. When you then look at other people I talk to about SDN, they have nothing to say. Why? They are unhappy, but they view their problems as personal problems. It's a sign of weakness to sound unhappy or to point out such issues. Why should anyone care about their problems anyway? Why would they expose these opinions to a board of pre-meds? Who has the time for such things? Pre-meds are so bubble-headed and optimistic they won't listen anyways, they have to figure these things out for themselves, I'm typically told. It's no different when it comes time to interview. You only meet first (mostly first) and second years at programs for a reason. There's typically a token senior student who is the one person who is bubbly out of a lot of students. Who would say negative things about their own program? It looks bad on the person and everyone is quietly afraid of getting in a lot of trouble for being "honest", so the vast majority of students hide from applicants and this forum. In my opinion if MD/PhDs spoke up with their voices about these problems, things might get changed. It's the same way I think if Americans spoke up about their problems, our government would change. But there's a culture of "I can't make a difference" and "If you don't have something positive to say, don't say anything" that pervades all of America and is especially common in science and medicine. I wish I could change it. This is why I view myself as an optimist. You must recognize these things that are bad first, in order to change them.
One thing that keeps me going is that my honest and unbiased advice is appreciated by many. I've been called cynical and written off as such (i.e. Neuronix is bitter, ignore what he says), but I feel vindicated by the fact that many who have written me off have become far more bitter than myself. I was dumped by a starting med student once for being "too bitter" and she ended up hating medical school. Am I bitter and negative? That's a subjective thing. If you want to see me as that, that's fine, but I don't see myself as such. To be perfectly honest, I am happier now than I have been since I started my MD/PhD program, but that's not going to change what I have to say about MD/PhD programs, which I try to make as objective and unbiased as I feel I can be. Keep in mind that on the order of only 30% of MD/PhDs grow up to live the "dream" of mostly basic science research. People are falling off the MD/PhD kool-aid track for a reason, and burying our collective heads in the sand about it doesn't do anything to help our plight. I believe that close to 100% of those people who start programs believe in science at least 50% of the time. There's issues that lead them not to become scientists. How about we talk about them? Or is it negative to point out bad things?
Anyways, I'm on such a wild tangent here and I'm sort of tooting my own horn a bit. I try to retain my humility in a world where everyone is fluffing themselves and/or their programs. I only want to say that if you want to question my data or assumptions, that's fine. I wish we could get rid of the personal judgements of my character. I think they're typically wrong, that what is said on an Internet forum is not a true judge of a person, and that we should stick as much as possible to anecdotes, data (preferably), and issues.
I don't think I'm cynical. I'm just trying to be honest. MD/PhD graduation times are averaging 8 years at programs I'm aware of and tracking upwards. NIH grant funding is going down. On the order of 15% of MD/PhD students drop their PhDs and many many more are unhappy with their graduate school training. What I have to say is not going to change based on my mood because at least in my mind, I think it is rooted in reality. If some people want to bury their heads in the sand and ignore reality or parts of reality, that's their choice. If my reality is wrong, please point that out. But don't tell me senior graduate students aren't bitter. Don't tell me that I haven't watched several classes of students go from RAH RAH RESEARCH to blah... I just wanna be a clinician. I saw it every day. If you look at my old posts, I was the overly optimistic first year arguing with the senior PhD students who have since long left SDN. As I look at their posts now I realize they were right, had a lot of great information, and I wanted to believe so much in what I was doing that it was easy to ignore gloom and doom. This is cognitive dissonance at its finest. You step into a long and hard program and you want to believe what you're doing is worthwhile. This is one reason I think I fluster first years and applicants, and of course the other reason is that things haven't really started to get hard for you yet. First years often think gross anatomy is the end of the world, but in reality life only gets worse--much worse. Enjoy first year because it's relatively a good time. Second year too for that matter. When I started my PhD I annoyed the hell out of the MD/PhDs who were residents or finishing their PhDs with my optimism and questions. Every single one was heading towards the clinical-only world and most have. I'm not saying MD/PhD is not worthwhile, but certainly not everyone does, and their reasons for thinking it's not are as valid as mine thinking that MD/PhD is worthwhile.
Please come back in 5 years and tell me how you view the MD/PhD training pathway again. Then in another 5. I hope you stick around to tell us these things. I will say it again for myself. I do think MD/PhD is worthwhile for the right people. I do think my program is a great program. Are there issues? Of course. I try to talk about the good and bad, but since everyone only wants to talk about the good it's easy to single me out for bringing up the bad.
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let us recap what just happened -
JHopRevisit: Dude, I kinda disagree a little bit
Neuronix: Oh yea
... **** WITH ME AND I WILL EAT YOUR FACE!!!
Everyone Else:
JHopRevisit: Dude, I kinda disagree a little bit
Neuronix: Oh yea
... **** WITH ME AND I WILL EAT YOUR FACE!!!Everyone Else:
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let us recap what just happened -
JHopRevisit: Dude, I kinda disagree a little bit
Neuronix: Oh yea
What me? All I said was don't call me cynical
I'm sorry Neuro, I didn't read your response, it's a little too long and like I said I really don't want to get into it. If me calling you cynical set you off, I'm sorry, but I believe you've repeatedly called yourself cynical and admitted your views are colored by a set of events that happened to you and don't apply to most students, so I felt I was on OK ground saying it.
If anyone is interested, I tend to have a bit more sunshiney vision of MD-PhDs programs than Nix does, and would be happy to talk about it with you, but don't want yet another thread to degenerate into this. This thread is already hopelessly derailed. What happened to that intransit site where you could post program interview reviews, I just checked and they seem to have stopped updating it.
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Fine... Your choice.
Huh? I don't recall me ever calling myself cynical. Others have called me that from time to time, and that's what I was responding to. I hate it. I think I'm one of the most optimistic people I know. IRL I'm called unrealistic and overconfident. Meanwhile, in my last post that you didn't read I mentioned that pretty much every senior MD/PhD student has had some serious issues and we need to flesh those out. Similar issues to what I've had have come up from other students on this site from time to time and it's certainly common in real life. The problem is nobody talks about them. When you do you're labelled cynical and I hate that. As everyone can see, it really pushes my buttons. Talking about problems makes you negative. What?
What year are you again? I hate to pull that card, but pretty much all students are sunshiney through third year and dark cloudy by sixth year... My point in the last post was that I used to sound like you. But you didn't read my post because you just totally wrote me off. Grad school sucks. Don't take my word for it though, I gave a list of names of senior MD/PhD students in my last post and can give more.
jot is just busy. You know, SDN took over the old interview feedback site I used when I applied. I'll see if they will do something with the MD/PhD feedback. it would be nice to either separate those reviews or identify them from each school's listings.
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I think that's a fair card to pull, you're right, I'm not as far in the process as you, but I do know lots of very content late year/graduated MD-PhDs (as well as some who aren't). Again, in the interests of not derailing I'm not gonna get into it, but it might be an interesting thread: at the end of your 7.2 (...OK, 7.7) years, who looks back on it and says "wow, that was worth it?," and who says "how quickly can I get through a plastics residency?" What types of people are in each group, are they mostly happy or unhappy for personal reasons (ie got married) or for external reasons (their program is run well), how successful was each group in medical school and research (pubs, awards, etc.)?
We should do a research study, survey graduating students, see how many thought it was worth it and why. We could put a bet on it beforehand, see whether hope or cynicism (sorry, my bad
) wins. I have to warn, hope is "in" right now. Yes we can (graduate happily within eight years)!
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Someone is drinking Obama cool-aid.....LOL JK.
I hope I finish in 8 years...or my folks gonna have a major heart attack.
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If anyone would like me to collect your feedback and post it under my screenname, I would be happy to. This is common scenario in some of the residency interview forums. Your messages to me will be completely confidential and so you can feel anonymous if you have information you'd like to post.
SDN is working on its own interview feedback section for MD/PhD (like for MD, maybe integrated, maybe separate) and I hope this will be online before too much longer.
SDN is working on its own interview feedback section for MD/PhD (like for MD, maybe integrated, maybe separate) and I hope this will be online before too much longer.
Yea, this thread has gotten interesting. Anyways, I'm going to keep on posting while I still remember/get a chance.
Baylor
About 15 applicants for my session. Dinner on Thursday was with current students and a few faculty members at one of the Dean's house. You get a nice idea of the program there. Friday consists of 3 md/phd interviews in the morning after breakfast (1 student, 2 faculty), about 30 mins each. Lunch with MD applicants. Afternoon consists of 2 MD interviews (I had 1 student, 1 faculty). The whole day can be quite tiring. The MD student interview for me was the one that asked the most questions/least laid back. Everything else was enjoyable/conversational. I would definitely pack a light snack especially for the morning. My day ended with a MSTP social in the afternoon, with a good number of current students. The biggest attractions are probably the med center and low cost of living in Houston.
Wash U
There were 9 of us there, as the first group that ever had a Monday interview (most are Thursday/Friday). This means that we don't get a tour of the med school, also that all interviews are packed into one day. Sunday night was dinner at the Chase with the director and administrator. Monday morning (make sure you either pack a light breakfast or get up early to get one, since it was not provided for us) consisted of a med school interview with one of the Deans, the committee interview, and a faculty interview. Most of us dreaded the committee interview (and heard about a girl who was banging her head in the elevator afterwards), but it really wasn't so bad. First question was 'why md/phd' second was 'tell us about your research.' I got maybe 4-5 questions total, nothing unreasonable. Afternoon consisted of 3 other faculty interviews and a wrap-up interview. Evening was dinner downtown with a few current students. I think I was about to collapse by the end of the day. But usually these are spread over the course of two days, with a tour of the medical school. Most of the interviews are very laid back. They also send out rejection emails/phone calls a week after.
At this point, I think it's a good idea to schedule some of your top choices relatively early (but not as your earliest ones to gain some experience), especially if they can get back to you quickly. Personally, I'm about to withdraw from most of my schools once I get one acceptance somewhere. This whole process is quite time- and effort-consuming.
Baylor
About 15 applicants for my session. Dinner on Thursday was with current students and a few faculty members at one of the Dean's house. You get a nice idea of the program there. Friday consists of 3 md/phd interviews in the morning after breakfast (1 student, 2 faculty), about 30 mins each. Lunch with MD applicants. Afternoon consists of 2 MD interviews (I had 1 student, 1 faculty). The whole day can be quite tiring. The MD student interview for me was the one that asked the most questions/least laid back. Everything else was enjoyable/conversational. I would definitely pack a light snack especially for the morning. My day ended with a MSTP social in the afternoon, with a good number of current students. The biggest attractions are probably the med center and low cost of living in Houston.
Wash U
There were 9 of us there, as the first group that ever had a Monday interview (most are Thursday/Friday). This means that we don't get a tour of the med school, also that all interviews are packed into one day. Sunday night was dinner at the Chase with the director and administrator. Monday morning (make sure you either pack a light breakfast or get up early to get one, since it was not provided for us) consisted of a med school interview with one of the Deans, the committee interview, and a faculty interview. Most of us dreaded the committee interview (and heard about a girl who was banging her head in the elevator afterwards), but it really wasn't so bad. First question was 'why md/phd' second was 'tell us about your research.' I got maybe 4-5 questions total, nothing unreasonable. Afternoon consisted of 3 other faculty interviews and a wrap-up interview. Evening was dinner downtown with a few current students. I think I was about to collapse by the end of the day. But usually these are spread over the course of two days, with a tour of the medical school. Most of the interviews are very laid back. They also send out rejection emails/phone calls a week after.
At this point, I think it's a good idea to schedule some of your top choices relatively early (but not as your earliest ones to gain some experience), especially if they can get back to you quickly. Personally, I'm about to withdraw from most of my schools once I get one acceptance somewhere. This whole process is quite time- and effort-consuming.
I once found a forum that had information about mstp interview experiences for every school. Does anyone have a link to this site? I thought it was on www.mdphds.org, but i don't see it there.
UIC
The interview was very relaxed and casual. The night before we met with current students for dinner. There were not any really tough questions. Just the usual why MD/PhD, why not just MD or PhD, Tell me about your research, Tell me about yourself. Everyone was really nice. I had three interviews in the morning. Each interview is with two committee members. Then I met with the director. This is just to get to know him and ask him questions if you have any. Then you meet with the faculty you requested. Then with the associate director.
The interview was very relaxed and casual. The night before we met with current students for dinner. There were not any really tough questions. Just the usual why MD/PhD, why not just MD or PhD, Tell me about your research, Tell me about yourself. Everyone was really nice. I had three interviews in the morning. Each interview is with two committee members. Then I met with the director. This is just to get to know him and ask him questions if you have any. Then you meet with the faculty you requested. Then with the associate director.
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Hey folks,
Just realized this was probably the more correct thread. Mdphds.org is back up and accepting reviews.
http://www.mdphds.org/forum/
Just realized this was probably the more correct thread. Mdphds.org is back up and accepting reviews.
http://www.mdphds.org/forum/
A few random thoughts after my first couple interviews:
I was kinda shocked at the amount of in-your-face advertisement you get from speakers and even students and student hosts. I mean sometimes I had to literally roll my eyes. And I completely agree with Neuronix that it's very hard to get any sort of objective measure of the program (other than the obvious stuff you can get through rankings, quality of research ..etc) from the interviews themselves. I was naively a bit too honest with my evaluation of some of the activities when asked by students, so I hope this doesn't reflect badly on my application.
I was kinda shocked at the amount of in-your-face advertisement you get from speakers and even students and student hosts. I mean sometimes I had to literally roll my eyes. And I completely agree with Neuronix that it's very hard to get any sort of objective measure of the program (other than the obvious stuff you can get through rankings, quality of research ..etc) from the interviews themselves. I was naively a bit too honest with my evaluation of some of the activities when asked by students, so I hope this doesn't reflect badly on my application.
Sorry, it's been a while but I'll try to remember what I can.
UTSW
I had three MSTP interviews (30 mins each) in the morning after a brief tour of the hospital. Two were quite laid-back. One was not so much (hypothetical experiments and how you'd design the controls, but nothing unreasonable; my interviewer was also reading my app/rec letters during the interview while typing up notes and looked at me for less than 2 mins total...which was a little distracting to me). You can basically turn your brain off after lunch (for tours and such, although the views were beautiful).
The students also take you out to dinner the night before your interviews. The research facility is definitely impressive. Cost of living is cheap. Med school is a bit tough given their system of grading...
UTSW
I had three MSTP interviews (30 mins each) in the morning after a brief tour of the hospital. Two were quite laid-back. One was not so much (hypothetical experiments and how you'd design the controls, but nothing unreasonable; my interviewer was also reading my app/rec letters during the interview while typing up notes and looked at me for less than 2 mins total...which was a little distracting to me). You can basically turn your brain off after lunch (for tours and such, although the views were beautiful).
The students also take you out to dinner the night before your interviews. The research facility is definitely impressive. Cost of living is cheap. Med school is a bit tough given their system of grading...
^ trying to guess who you guys were.
UTSW:
Research facilities are extremely impressive, which makes UTSW easily my top choice right now. The day started with a talk and a meeting with a recently graduated physician-scientist, and then followed by a meeting with a patient. I thought this was wonderful and was the highlight of the day for me. Two of the interviews were low stress and one of the interviewers gave me a tour of his lab and stuff which was cool. The third interview was quite hard, but nothing impossible. The second part of the day was basically "selling the school", though I did like the clinical facilities and the number of opportunities one can have. Overall, for a first interview, I met some pretty interesting people and some great time.
UTSW:
Research facilities are extremely impressive, which makes UTSW easily my top choice right now. The day started with a talk and a meeting with a recently graduated physician-scientist, and then followed by a meeting with a patient. I thought this was wonderful and was the highlight of the day for me. Two of the interviews were low stress and one of the interviewers gave me a tour of his lab and stuff which was cool. The third interview was quite hard, but nothing impossible. The second part of the day was basically "selling the school", though I did like the clinical facilities and the number of opportunities one can have. Overall, for a first interview, I met some pretty interesting people and some great time.
yep. why not just md or phd, etc.
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I think that's a fair card to pull, you're right, I'm not as far in the process as you, but I do know lots of very content late year/graduated MD-PhDs (as well as some who aren't). Again, in the interests of not derailing I'm not gonna get into it, but it might be an interesting thread: at the end of your 7.2 (...OK, 7.7) years, who looks back on it and says "wow, that was worth it?," and who says "how quickly can I get through a plastics residency?" What types of people are in each group, are they mostly happy or unhappy for personal reasons (ie got married) or for external reasons (their program is run well), how successful was each group in medical school and research (pubs, awards, etc.)?
We should do a research study, survey graduating students, see how many thought it was worth it and why. We could put a bet on it beforehand, see whether hope or cynicism (sorry, my bad
I think that would be a very interesting study to do indeed. My sense is that almost everyone becomes at least a little jaded and cynical through the process--it is a very long and challenging pathway after all! There are potentially many bumps in the road along the way... administrative issues, not feeling like you're a medical student, not feeling like you're a graduate student, manuscript rejections, transition back to the wards after finishing the Ph.D., seeing friends graduate and becoming residents, fellows and attendings, seeing friends making 6 times your salary, living like a student into your late 20's, having people who doubt your clinical skills, having people who doubt your research abilities, etc. And the last few years of declining grant success rates, decreasing post-graduate job opportunities, and watching even big name PIs have difficulties keeping their labs afloat. It is no wonder that many come out jaded. Reality is quite a bit harsher than the bright-and-shiny picture that is initially presented to applicants.
That all being said, I have no regrets about the MD/PhD pathway. I will be graduating in 2009, having completed the program in 8 years total. I am greatly looking forward to the next step--residency, and am thinking quite a bit about how to integrate research into residency and thereby hit the ground running when I finish. Indeed, I am still excited by the idea of being a physician-scientist! While it is important to learn about the harsh realities facing physician-scientists, including increasing challenges in obtaining grant funding, facing rejections, etc, it is also equally important to keep your eye on the ball. You must have an intense passion for science and medicine and somehow maintain that passion through the thick of it. If you can pull this off, you will be the stronger, and will be poised to have a very successful career!
I have my first interview on wednesday at columbia. The night before we have an informal dinner with students. Can anyone who has had this interview already tell me what kind of dress code is expected for an informal dinner? My guess would be business casual with nice pants and a sweater/button down shirt, but I may be wrong. Also, how do these dinners usually go?
Not that I've got a lot of experience in this...but yes, business casual is the way to go. Has Columbia sent you an interview schedule? That might have information on a dinner dress code.
As for "how they go," the one I've been to so far was basically a chance for you to chat with current students in the program. It was pretty casual and conversational.
lol my interview schedule. My interview is December 17 and the dinner is the 16th. It's the 12th and I don't have it yet. They are sending it to me today. Additionally, my student host has not contacted me, which is a little unsettling. It's been a little bit disorganized because they changed coordinators. I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can.
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Anyone have any input on UAB's MSTP interview?
What were the MD interviews like? What about the interviews with research faculty and then the steering committee?
Did each type of interview have a specific focus?
What were the MD interviews like? What about the interviews with research faculty and then the steering committee?
Did each type of interview have a specific focus?
