MD/PhD students compared to MD students.

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wolfe24

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I was just curious to know if MD/PhD students typically perform better in med school classes compared to their MD classmates.

It seems that most MD/PhD students have a higher MCAT score and GPA compared to the average for the MD program at a particular school so it leads me to believe that MD/PhD students would perform better. I was just seeing if anyone had any thoughts.

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I would say, at least in my program, that we tend to all be in the top 50%, with a normal distribution from there. In other words, a small minority of us are at the 50% range, a small minority are up in the top 5%, and the rest fall in the middle. We are also required to be in the top 2/3 to be funded, and we've lost a few students due to this.

Some of our students have outstanding MCATs and have awesome grades, but some have average MCATs with stellar research experience. These latter students tend to be the "average" in the medical school years, but still higher than the mean.

Hope that helps.
 
I would say, at least in my program, that we tend to all be in the top 50%, with a normal distribution from there. In other words, a small minority of us are at the 50% range, a small minority are up in the top 5%, and the rest fall in the middle. We are also required to be in the top 2/3 to be funded, and we've lost a few students due to this.

Some of our students have outstanding MCATs and have awesome grades, but some have average MCATs with stellar research experience. These latter students tend to be the "average" in the medical school years, but still higher than the mean.

Hope that helps.

We also get awesome shirts, which boosts our motivation to perform better on the tests.

It's almost like the Hawthorne effect...but with clothing...
 
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It seems that most MD/PhD students have a higher MCAT score and GPA compared to the average for the MD program at a particular school

Barely better at the top-5 med schools, but I'm really unsure about your question.

I will say that I scored very low on most of my exams in the first two years, barely passing most of the basic science cirriculum. I went on to score above our school's average on Step I (we claim to have the highest average of any school) and much higher than the national average. My point? Grades in the first two years don't matter. Those grades are decided on trivial nonsense that's usually about reading your professors minds and goes far above or is tangential to what you typically need to know for Step I. Those grades don't matter to us because they don't matter to residency programs.

As for grades in third year and beyond... That's a different beast. Do they have anything to do with how much you know?
 
What is the average step I score at a top five med school in the nation?

I'm not exactly sure, as it changes it from year to year. I think we're at 236? I think it was 235 when I started. This isn't true for all top five med schools, as when I started I was told #2 was Mayo, and it's always rumored that Harvard NP is somewhere in the 220s. But please don't take my word on any of that other stuff as it's all hearsay and none of the data is ever released to the public. If you look on SDN enough you'll find at least 5 schools that claim to be #1 and everyone says crap to try to spin themselves to look great.
 
I would say, at least in my program, that we tend to all be in the top 50%, with a normal distribution from there. In other words, a small minority of us are at the 50% range, a small minority are up in the top 5%, and the rest fall in the middle. We are also required to be in the top 2/3 to be funded, and we've lost a few students due to this.

Some of our students have outstanding MCATs and have awesome grades, but some have average MCATs with stellar research experience. These latter students tend to be the "average" in the medical school years, but still higher than the mean.

Hope that helps.


I would agree that this is dead on.

Also, I would add that it seems to me that during the preclinical years there are always a few MSTP students who underacheive becasue they feel like having a PhD will overshadow everything else. It is probably debatable about whether a PhD overshadows average preclinical grades, but as Neuronix posted if you just barely pass your preclinicals and kill the Step I then people don't really care about your preclinical grades (they usually don't anyway, for the most part).
 
Debatable? :laugh:

Nobody cares about your preclinical grades.

Everybody cares about your PhD.

START YOUR DEBATING!

I had the impression that in specialties that were "nontraditional" for physician-scientists nobody really cared about a PhD. And of course if you don't claim that you're planning to stay in research, nobody will care.

Otherwise, agreed.
 
I had the impression that in specialties that were "nontraditional" for physician-scientists nobody really cared about a PhD. And of course if you don't claim that you're planning to stay in research, nobody will care.

Otherwise, agreed.

Sorry pseudoknot, but you are 100% incorrect. It is a tremendous advantage, in any field, regardless of your intentions to stay in research. I guess you could negate it by hammering home your hate for research during your interview, but otherwise any field, ANY residency, will rank you higher as MD/PhD than MD. Just look in our own program! Plastics at Stanford? No way no how without PhD.
 
Sorry pseudoknot, but you are 100% incorrect. It is a tremendous advantage, in any field, regardless of your intentions to stay in research. I guess you could negate it by hammering home your hate for research during your interview, but otherwise any field, ANY residency, will rank you higher as MD/PhD than MD. Just look in our own program! Plastics at Stanford? No way no how without PhD.

Meh. Sweeping generalizations...

In reality there are certain fields and certain institutions where this is correct, but there are AMPLE examples where it is NOT.

For example, having an MD/PhD in genetics from a top program gets you an interview ANYWHERE if you wan to go into pathology (that was my experience)... but having an MD/PhD in engineering from the same instiution and going into Orthopedic surgery OR Rads did not seem to help my friends much at all.

There are lots of variables, like the quality of your research and publication record, your clinical grades and LORs, and of course, your Step I scores. In some fields and at some institutions, those variables are weighed more heavily than your PhD BY A LONGSHOT. Research-heavy fields at academic institutions, like Path, IM, Peds, Neuro, etc. are obviously going to care a lot more about your PhD.
 
I suppose I should clarify...

MD/PhD, in a clinically relevant basic science field, assuming you have published and maintained reasonable grades, puts you at a decided advantage of a standard MD student with the same grades. There is simply no question.

Can I find a MD/PHD student who got a PHD in history/electrical engineering/jazz studies and sucks at interacting with people and doesn't know the difference between a uvula and a vulva that won't match? I suppose.

I suppose I was generalizing...so then "in general" you are way better off in the match with a MD/PhD in the competitive specialties, provided you would be reasonably competitive to begin with. So yes, if you score 180 on step I don't count on your PhD to get you a derm interview, but with a 225, a normal MD student might be passed over while you will be interviewing. Just my experience in having friends in these situations...
 
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I was just curious to know if MD/PhD students typically perform better in med school classes compared to their MD classmates.

It seems that most MD/PhD students have a higher MCAT score and GPA compared to the average for the MD program at a particular school so it leads me to believe that MD/PhD students would perform better. I was just seeing if anyone had any thoughts.
I'm going to argue that no, people who go to grad school (before or during med school) tend to not be setting the class curve. Grad students aren't the same kind of gunners that med students are. Not that they aren't gunners at all; don't misunderstand me here. It's just that they are gunners for different things, and they have different priorities. Class grades don't seem to matter as much to most MD/PhD students. Witness Neuro's comments, which I think are a pretty common sentiment among the research-oriented med school crowd. :)
 
Witness Neuro's comments, which I think are a pretty common sentiment among the research-oriented med school crowd. :)

Don't mistake me for research-oriented. I just realized after busting my ass all through undergrad to get into a MD/PhD program that there was more to life than busting my ass. Now that I'm done busting my ass for a PhD I've re-realized it.

Or just call me lazy. Nevertheless, I think a key to happiness is not exerting yourself when you don't need to (unless you're skiing!!!!!).
 
I suppose I should clarify...

MD/PhD, in a clinically relevant basic science field, assuming you have published and maintained reasonable grades, puts you at a decided advantage of a standard MD student with the same grades. There is simply no question.

Can I find a MD/PHD student who got a PHD in history/electrical engineering/jazz studies and sucks at interacting with people and doesn't know the difference between a uvula and a vulva that won't match? I suppose.

I suppose I was generalizing...so then "in general" you are way better off in the match with a MD/PhD in the competitive specialties, provided you would be reasonably competitive to begin with. So yes, if you score 180 on step I don't count on your PhD to get you a derm interview, but with a 225, a normal MD student might be passed over while you will be interviewing. Just my experience in having friends in these situations...

This was all I was trying to say. Its been my experience that occassionally some people will not work that hard during preclinical courses (for whatever reason, mostly I've heard people say I just want to do research anyway) but then 7 years later find out that they really like derm or want to work in skin cancer and have shot themselves in the foot with a medicore Step1.

A PhD would overshadow avg preclinical grades without question assuming a decent Step1, but so would just a decent Step1. My point is there are people who don't take preclinical classes as seriously as they could, as a consequence don't do as well as they could on the Step, then it comes back to hurt them down the road. My advice to an incomming student would be do as well as you can and don't have the attitude that no matter what you do your PhD will get you the residency you want, because that is just not the case.
 
My point is there are people who don't take preclinical classes as seriously as they could, as a consequence don't do as well as they could on the Step

To reiterate:

Those grades are decided on trivial nonsense that's usually about reading your professors minds and goes far above or is tangential to what you typically need to know for Step I.

Do you disagree with this point?
 
To reiterate:



Do you disagree with this point?


Actually I was talking to a friend of mine about this today. It is a very good point, and generally true. It is probably somewhat professor-dependent as well. But I would say as a general trend, people who bust their balls during preclinical years do better on Step than those who don't. Is it possible to just study your ass off for step and blow it away, of course. Not the advice I would give incoming students, though.

On a side note, the issue you bring up drives me nuts.
 
Not to derail, but I have been wondering:

Do PhD's who teach in med school adhere to a standardized curriculum or any guidelines?

I've talked to a younger PhD (assist/assoc prof) who teaches biochem type classes, and he discussed teaching MD students like it was a novelty of his career/ a bragging right moreso than an educational endeavor.

This would definitely seem to be information tangential to step1 ...
 
Not to derail, but I have been wondering:

Do PhD's who teach in med school adhere to a standardized curriculum or any guidelines?

I've talked to a younger PhD (assist/assoc prof) who teaches biochem type classes, and he discussed teaching MD students like it was a novelty of his career/ a bragging right moreso than an educational endeavor.

This would definitely seem to be information tangential to step1 ...
At least at my school, they do for the most part. There are course directors who decide (along with the curriculum committee) what the block is going to cover. I don't know how much oversight there is for individual professors (who might teach only one or two lectures), but mostly the stuff they teach seems reasonable.

When I look at First Aid or Step I review books, I see that our courses are basically covering all the same material. Sometimes they go into more depth. I think that usually if you know the stuff from a review book really well that's going to be enough for a high pass or so, but for honors you really need to pay attention to our syllabus. Maybe that's the kind of distinction that Neuronix was talking about.

Maybe I'm too tired to make any sense. Who knows.
 
The thing also about Step I is that it's almost entirely on second year topics. When I took Step I it had 2 easy questions on anatomy. I think 1 question on embryology. I don't think I had anything directly on biochem, only stuff that you would know from pathology/physiology/pharmacology anyways. Like if you inhibit HMG CoA Reductase, what are you doing?

Step I is the 3 Ps I mentioned. So any school that has you doing hardcore biochem or other basic science topics isn't really teaching to step I. That's what Baylor figured out and then Penn successfully copied. Duke takes it even one step further. That is they know that the first year of med school is barely necessary and can easily be condensed without hurting Step I scores. This is probably even more true for the scientists among us who have already had much of the first year material or can pick it up very easily.
 
...That is they know that the first year of med school is barely necessary and can easily be condensed without hurting Step I scores. This is probably even more true for the scientists among us who have already had much of the first year material or can pick it up very easily.
I agree. We have 2 solid years at my school and, for my Step exam, it wasn't necessary. I think the idea of condensing down into 18 months is just fine.

With respect to differences in performance, I don't know of any between our combined program kids and the regular MDs. Some folks who had PhDs coming in scored better on certain tests. When I was investigating MD/PhD programs, I remember the entrance stats being similar for most years. The MCAT usually were a couple points higher, but the GPAs were about the same. If anything, the entrance MD/PhD GPAs had a greater range than the MD students.

Concerning grades in MS1 and MS2, they're terrible at my school. I saw no increase (or decrease) in performance for more (or less) effort expended studying. For a large part our exams were random and an exercise in "reading the prof's mind." NOTE: Whatever is on the prof's mind, it is rarely useful in an MD's career. I gave up on them and concentrated on Step I.
 
I'm going to argue that no, people who go to grad school (before or during med school) tend to not be setting the class curve. Grad students aren't the same kind of gunners that med students are. Not that they aren't gunners at all; don't misunderstand me here. It's just that they are gunners for different things, and they have different priorities. Class grades don't seem to matter as much to most MD/PhD students. Witness Neuro's comments, which I think are a pretty common sentiment among the research-oriented med school crowd. :)

As a PhD -> MD, I found the first two years of med school and the Step I trivia contest to be culture shock...I wished I had been born a parrot.
 
I am currently in the residency application process. I would argue that the most important trait to gauge a student's competitiveness for residency is performance on the third year clinical clerkships. Hands down, too few clinical honors grades during third year trumps a PhD regardless of nature or science publications or impact of your work. There is one situation that can actually cause your PhD training to have a negative effect on your application to residency: not having any publications at the time of interview. I have known a handful of MD/PhD students in several schools that did not match simply for this reason while their MD counterparts were successful.

If you look at the statistics not every student that has a PhD matches in a competitive specialty at a competitive school. There are plenty that dont match. These could be for various reasons.

What makes this situation so difficult for MD/PhDs is returning to third year after 3-6 years in the lab. Dont believe anyone that says: "it will come back to you, just give it a few weeks." You've gotta work twice as hard as everyone else. There was a study out of the Mayo clinic last year that showed that students that have prolonged delays between their second and third years do worse, on average than their MD counterparts during third year. (Dyrbye, et al Journal of General Internal Medicine, 2007). That said, the students that do have publications and a handful of honors and high pass grades are the ones that get the spectacular residencies. The ones that dont, I suspect may self select themselves out of applying to competitive residencies as do many MD students in their situations. In essence, you must be a jack of all trades and master of both.
 
I am currently in the residency application process. I would argue that the most important trait to gauge a student's competitiveness for residency is performance on the third year clinical clerkships. Hands down, too few clinical honors grades during third year trumps a PhD regardless of nature or science publications or impact of your work. There is one situation that can actually cause your PhD training to have a negative effect on your application to residency: not having any publications at the time of interview. I have known a handful of MD/PhD students in several schools that did not match simply for this reason while their MD counterparts were successful.

If you look at the statistics not every student that has a PhD matches in a competitive specialty at a competitive school. There are plenty that dont match. These could be for various reasons.

What makes this situation so difficult for MD/PhDs is returning to third year after 3-6 years in the lab. Dont believe anyone that says: "it will come back to you, just give it a few weeks." You've gotta work twice as hard as everyone else. There was a study out of the Mayo clinic last year that showed that students that have prolonged delays between their second and third years do worse, on average than their MD counterparts during third year. (Dyrbye, et al Journal of General Internal Medicine, 2007). That said, the students that do have publications and a handful of honors and high pass grades are the ones that get the spectacular residencies. The ones that dont, I suspect may self select themselves out of applying to competitive residencies as do many MD students in their situations. In essence, you must be a jack of all trades and master of both.


Wait...MD/PhD applicants with NO publications? How is that even possible? No reasonable committee should allow a MD/PhD student to re-enter the clinical years without publishing. I would be completely uncomfortable in an interview trying to justify the PhD after my name without at least one first author paper.

To comment on the knowledge gap upon re-entering, this is also a function of when you re-enter. In my program you can rotate back whenever you finish. So if you finish the PhD in July and come back in August with the new M3 class-->not so bad. Come back in January when everyone has had a whole semester of M3-->much more difficult. However, I would rather come back in January than have to wait an entire extra year to match, which is the situation I am in now!
 
Wait...MD/PhD applicants with NO publications? How is that even possible? No reasonable committee should allow a MD/PhD student to re-enter the clinical years without publishing. I would be completely uncomfortable in an interview trying to justify the PhD after my name without at least one first author paper.

To comment on the knowledge gap upon re-entering, this is also a function of when you re-enter. In my program you can rotate back whenever you finish. So if you finish the PhD in July and come back in August with the new M3 class-->not so bad. Come back in January when everyone has had a whole semester of M3-->much more difficult. However, I would rather come back in January than have to wait an entire extra year to match, which is the situation I am in now!

I agree. my experience was very different from Iceman's... I had a ~5 yr PhD, and it was tough for the first month or so, but then it was obvious that I was way ahead of the other young med students. I was basically a mentor to the other students on my team. Maturity had a lot to do with it, as well as not allowing people to treat you like dirt. Having self esteem gave me instant respect, except in OB/GYN where the horribly passive-aggressive residents can't function without taking out their hormonal imbalances on medical students.
 
Wait...MD/PhD applicants with NO publications? How is that even possible? No reasonable committee should allow a MD/PhD student to re-enter the clinical years without publishing. I would be completely uncomfortable in an interview trying to justify the PhD after my name without at least one first author paper.

I've seen it. He still matched Rads too.
 
First PI died, later projects did not work. After 4 years of grad school he wanted to go so they let him out, rather than make him start over again.

I don't know if he did have enough for a first author manuscript and if he just had papers getting rejected. They're letting me go now with several papers up in the air, so I could see it. But there was a lot of conflict within the department as to whether he should be allowed to go with a PhD. Just let him go with a master's some said. His thesis committee chair, my PI, was his advocate for giving him the PhD regardless.

There are some other MD/PhDs that have come out of my lab or closely related labs with only one kind of shrug paper as well. They are similarly frowned upon by the professors in retrospect. But there is a certain kindness or mercy rule among some of the PIs. It's a matter of you have a long training pathway ahead of you so ok... They also know most of us will go on to be clinicians as well, going on experience.

So I think it makes the graduate student at the time happy. Nobody wants to stay in graduate school any longer than they have to. Towards the end of grad school I was more depressed than I've been in a long time. But, it does feed into the general sense that we are not "real" PhDs, since they probably would make the PhD students hang out another year or two. And the PhD students wouldn't mind as much either, cause they're not in any particular hurry in general and in my experience weren't working as hard in grad school regardless and so probably aren't as depressed.
 
I suppose this "mercy" rule is program dependent. There is a student in our program that is a G6 and they are letting him graduate as well, no 1st author paper yet. He also had some personal issues, etc. The program is losing thousands of dollars on him and one more year would probably be too much. That being said, I think this is a tiny minority of cases.

If I rotate back in January I am going to need at least 2 weeks beforehand to get my brain back onto clinical mode.
 
just to chime in a bit,

there are people who didn't publish a paper during PhD. they may still match well, esp. if they are from a big name school.

I think when it come down to residency apps, three things are of high importance, esp. for competitive specialties (this is paraphrasing my rad. onc. program director), not in any particular order

(1) clinical grades

(2) step I

(3) pedigree

Performance of PhD is important to the extent that if you have a first author Nature paper you'd stand out, and it could compensate for one thing or another. But I'd say a PhD is generally part of the "pedigree". I.e. MD/PhD at top 20 school is considered equivalent to a pedigree of a MD of top 5, or something like that. Program directors rarely have time to go through the fine nuances of your C.V. But if you are a MD/PhD from a mid-tier/lower tier school, you still have to fight to match somewhere good.

When I talk to the residents, they don't say "oh, yeah you are MD/PhD, you'll be fine." They say, "oh, you are MD/PhD at *X school*, you'll be fine."

Can a Penn MD/PhD match in rads w/o a pub? Very likely. Can a U Florida kid? Much harder.
 
I'm sorry but if I were interviewing someone who spent 3-6 years in a lab and had NO publications to show for it it would be a red flag. A BIG red flag. And how would the PI's LOR read? "Oh he was great...too bad he didn't accomplish anything." I suppose if everything else in the application were OK and there were some extenuating circumstances regarding the PhD they could still match well, but certainly not as well as if they had gotten publications which is the primary goal of the PhD.
 
I'm sorry but if I were interviewing someone who spent 3-6 years in a lab and had NO publications to show for it it would be a red flag. A BIG red flag. And how would the PI's LOR read? "Oh he was great...too bad he didn't accomplish anything." I suppose if everything else in the application were OK and there were some extenuating circumstances regarding the PhD they could still match well, but certainly not as well as if they had gotten publications which is the primary goal of the PhD.

hmm...i dunno about your school, but at my school there are big ego PIs who only publish in Cell/Nature/Science, and anything less is deemed non-publishable. This caused some excellent students to not have papers. I can name two specific examples, one from a top lab (no first author pub, 1 second author Cell paper) the other from a okay lab (young PI, no pubs whatsoever, all negative results). First matched at Harvard psychiatry, second matched at Stanford psychiatry. Both are in the research track. Granted even average student at my school can match pretty much everywhere in psychiatry, but clearly not having a pub did not hurt them.

I know for sure though that rad onc program directors look at the number and "quality" of your publications. But having a PhD is still better than not having one, even without accounting for this.
 
if they had gotten publications which is the primary goal of the PhD.

The primary goal of a PhD is publications?!

[SRSLY]
That is totally why I set out to do my PhD. If only I had publications, I thought one day as an undergrad. Then I figured, hey, why don't I go to grad school so I can get publications?! I mean seriously, how can I live my life without seeing my name in the literature? How can I see my career interests as being fulfilled without a paper?

Screw all the learning, the courses, and the lab experience. Why even defend a pre-lim or a thesis? I mean, when it comes down to it, the primary goal of all that hard work was just a publication or two. By extension, he with the most publications wins at the PhD game!!!! I suggest we multiply # of pubs by impact factor in the future. Then we can all measure our collective PhD-peens.
[/SRSLY]
 
There are some MD/PhD students that have prolonged delays and do perfectly well during third year..more power to them.

If you look at the statistics however MD/PhD are about 77% less likely to get honors grades than their MD counterparts in the medicine clerkship according to the paper I quoted earlier.

I agree, if you come from a "upper tier" school (whatever that means) then there is a little more slack. However, a complete lack of honors grades is a totally different story. One program director I spoke with mentioned that you need to do well during your clinical training because you dont want to come off as someone sitting on an "ivory PhD tower" by being an excellent scientist but a mediocre clinician. You want to be prepared to be in the trenches with your fellow clinicians during your internship and beyond. The best predictor of clinical success, as reported in a recent JAMA article, is number of clinical honors. Program directors will literally count the number of honors grades and give you a score and interview you based on a cutoff.

My point is that a PhD does not compensate for lack of clinical excellence (unless you are at a highly ranked medical school) at the most competitive programs. One more caveat is that certain residencies tend to look for research oriented applicants versus others. OB/GYN and orthopedics are two fields where a PhD degree will not help you at most programs (there are some where it will). In fact, I had an orthopedics MD/PhD visiting resident spend a few months in our lab a few years ago. He told me that when he was interviewing he actually had to defend his motivations for pursuing graduate training. There are programs out there that view PhD training as a 3-6 year waste of time or simply as another "extracurricular activity" like lawn bowling. This is the unfortunate truth.

That said, if you are thinking about a field such as Neurology, pediatrics, medicine, ENT, ophtho, a PhD will likely add to your portfolio at most programs.

Believe me, there are plenty of students that have no publications after a PhD. Committies are often under tremendous pressure to graduate MD/PhD students as fast as possible. Other causes of this include manuscripts being tied up in the review process or sequential rejections. There are tons of reasons why papers do not get published. The absolute key is that you have at least one publication by the time you submit your common application.

That said, clinical grades trump everything.
 
The primary goal of a PhD is publications?!

[SRSLY]
That is totally why I set out to do my PhD. If only I had publications, I thought one day as an undergrad. Then I figured, hey, why don't I go to grad school so I can get publications?! I mean seriously, how can I live my life without seeing my name in the literature? How can I see my career interests as being fulfilled without a paper?

Screw all the learning, the courses, and the lab experience. Why even defend a pre-lim or a thesis? I mean, when it comes down to it, the primary goal of all that hard work was just a publication or two. By extension, he with the most publications wins at the PhD game!!!! I suggest we multiply # of pubs by impact factor in the future. Then we can all measure our collective PhD-peens.
[/SRSLY]

Publications are the only way people interviewing you can assess how you spent your time during graduate school, and are the only litmus test later in life as to how productive a scientist you are. You could have all the "learning, the courses, and the lab experience" you want...no pubs then who the hell will care? Your sarcasm is funny but seriously, scientists that don't publish don't succeed nearly to the degree of those who publish well. You should NOT be able to have a PhD after your name without a paper. One paper. Period. That's what masters degrees are for. Sorry you're having trouble publishing but that's the truth.
 
You should NOT be able to have a PhD after your name without a paper.

It's in part my personal opinion that a PhD should be about learning first and demonstrating that you have learned to do work and sell that work. We should not lose focus of that fact. When you say it's "the primary objective" is when I take offense. You might say "a primary objective" and I wouldn't have responded the way I did. I would say it's a secondary objective. Surely, it's good that your work stands up to outside criticism and it's good to get experience in the publishing process. However, If your PI/lab/committee boil down your PhD into the process of getting papers, you can be considered nothing more than a lab tech. I mean who cares if you thought of your own experiments or really learned anything when the benchmark is: did that person publish? Publishing is not the primary objective in this sense. Nobody is going to agree you should get a PhD when you have papers but don't really understand those papers. Conversely, some would argue you can get a PhD without papers, as long as you have a good understanding of your research and field and have put in significant amounts of time demonstrating that fact. I think most care that you learned something significant, and therefore, learning is still the benchmark. If you want to say publishing is required in addition to that, I won't take quarrel with you, but to say it's all about productivity is a dangerous line of thought in an educational system.

Now publications are one of the major benchmarks later in life. We have to accept that we are being trained to bring in grant money and part of bringing in grant money is publishing. But that's a different stage of the scientist's lifecycle. We can note significant anecdotes of people who were "unsuccessful" graduate students yet flourished later in life. One of the nobel prize winners last year had 0 publications during his PhD.

Sorry you're having trouble publishing but that's the truth.

No need to get personal. I have one paper in press and between the four other papers I've either submitted or will be submitting in the next month, I think I'll end up with a few more. I think my grant and patents will also look pretty good on my CV. But, despite the call out I really don't want to measure e-peens. The MD/PhD Radiology fellow who had several papers in PNAS and several other reputable journal papers as a PhD pretty much told me to get out of grad school as quickly as possible. This is because now that he's looking for jobs nobody cares what he did in grad school--only what he did in residency and fellowship. He's not the only MD/PhD senior to me who gave me the advice to just get done. I pushed as hard as possible for that to happen.

In the end, should someone be allowed to graduate with no papers? I think so, but it's certainly undesirable. Does it handicap your career? I doubt it. You might not get into the biggest name residency. I used to think these things mattered until I noticed that in my field many of the big name academics I looked into went to relatively no name medical schools and residency programs. In the long run fellowships, especially research fellowships and post-docs, really are not very competitive, and isn't the performance there what really counts for a new scientist? And why aren't these very competitive?? It seems most of the smartest people bailed to industry or private practice. Hmmmmmmm.............
 
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Publications are the only way people interviewing you can assess how you spent your time during graduate school, and are the only litmus test later in life as to how productive a scientist you are. You could have all the "learning, the courses, and the lab experience" you want...no pubs then who the hell will care? Your sarcasm is funny but seriously, scientists that don't publish don't succeed nearly to the degree of those who publish well. You should NOT be able to have a PhD after your name without a paper. One paper. Period. That's what masters degrees are for. Sorry you're having trouble publishing but that's the truth.

This assessment is in general true. However, I think the current system of only graduating PhDs w/ papers is stupid. The implicit assumption here is that everyone wants to be a "successful scientist." A large portion, if not a good majority of PhDs end up in the industry, pharma, consulting, etc., and having a paper or two, or zero, doesn't matter at all.

Similarly, MD/PhDs get jobs usually not based on their PhD performance, because again it's mostly irrelevant. Now if you are saying that if you want a K08, you should publish...that'd be more true, but if you didn't publish during PhD, then you should probably just not do basic science research anyway.

There's a general narrow-mindedness that I want to point out that is perhaps dangerous but nevertheless very prevalent. Nobody's arguing that papers aren't important. But if you want to be a truly successful scientist, then papers indeed SHOULD NOT be the end--it should be a means to an end. Nor should other things be the end--prestige, fame, funding, tenure etc. etc. They are all means to an end, which is an opportunity to satisfy your intellectual curiosity and desire for discovery. This is not idealism--indeed it's the most pragmatic of conclusions. I see many PIs who forget that and make both themselves and their subordinates unnecessarily miserable. They would've done everybody a favor and just dropped out early.

On the other hand, if you want to be laughing all the way to the bank, then papers can't even be a means to that end.
 
Pressure from whom?

there's a lot of money at stake...the T-series grants earmarked for MD/PhDs from NIH reviews the average length of the program, and the school loses millions if MD/PhDs take too long. Such review does not exist for normal T-grants for regular PhD students, which in turn gives PIs ways for egregious abuses. Such horror stories are too numerous to recount.

NIH needs to correct this. If you suck at research, they need to graduate you sooner, not later, since you'd most likely to drop out of science anyway. Tax payer's money shouldn't be wasted on training the next generation of business consultants working for Mckinsey's, in my opinion. Thankfully this kind of clemency at PI level is already happening. For instance, publication requirements at my school for my PhD program has been stripped, allowing individual PIs to assess the length of the program depending on the career goals of specific students.
 
there's a lot of money at stake...the T-series grants earmarked for MD/PhDs from NIH reviews the average length of the program, and the school loses millions if MD/PhDs take too long. Such review does not exist for normal T-grants for regular PhD students, which in turn gives PIs ways for egregious abuses. Such horror stories are too numerous to recount.

NIH needs to correct this. If you suck at research, they need to graduate you sooner, not later, since you'd most likely to drop out of science anyway. Tax payer's money shouldn't be wasted on training the next generation of business consultants working for Mckinsey's, in my opinion. Thankfully this kind of clemency at PI level is already happening. For instance, publication requirements at my school for my PhD program has been stripped, allowing individual PIs to assess the length of the program depending on the career goals of specific students.

I agree with this statement. Committees are often under pressure from the MD/PhD administration, medical schools, and faculty advisors. My committee chair told me that the only real vote that counts "metaphorically speaking" is the one from your advisor. If he/she says that you are ready to defend and are qualified then so be it. It is incredibly expensive to educate us. This is why if you give your MSTP program director a sign that your defense could be in the next few months he or she will often bring that up next time they talk to your advisor. And this is how it often goes.

I agree with the previous poster that one does not need an official publication to be trained adequately as a scientist. In fact I knew several people who did not publish but knew how to construct a hypothesis, write grants, conduct experiments, interpret results, write papers, and speak the language of science. These are, as I understand the core of PhD training. I have seen some graduate students do lab work and produce data and have publications but their PIs write the papers. These students, in my experience, could not last one day as independent scientists.

HOWEVER, I dont place much weight on most residency programs and how they are able to understand this. Residencies, in my experience, are interested in the concrete. If they could attach a number or letter to anything in the world, in my opinion, they would. This is why it is nonsense (yet always done) to compare two different students from two different schools with the same grade in surgery even though the grading systems are completely different in both schools. Similarly, residency directors, just like number of honors, will count the number of publications and tabulate that as a measure of your worth in their program. This is what happens when you have 600 applicants for 3 spots. This is the unfortunate truth.

Unfortunately there are scenarios where an MD/PhD student with 1 publication and 1 honor grade is compared to an MD student with 1 publication and 3 honors grades. The MD student is often ranked higher for a faulty assumption. It is assumed that an MD student that has 1 publication within a span of a summer or one year is more successful in the lab. This is primarily because he or she is thought to produce more papers in a shorter period of time compared to an MD/PhD student that publishes 1 paper in 4 years. This is totally wacky thinking but I have heard plenty of students talk about this very thing comming up in interviews.
 
Unfortunately there are scenarios where an MD/PhD student with 1 publication and 1 honor grade is compared to an MD student with 1 publication and 3 honors grades. The MD student is often ranked higher for a faulty assumption. It is assumed that an MD student that has 1 publication within a span of a summer or one year is more successful in the lab. This is primarily because he or she is thought to produce more papers in a shorter period of time compared to an MD/PhD student that publishes 1 paper in 4 years. This is totally wacky thinking but I have heard plenty of students talk about this very thing comming up in interviews.

Is this really true? Holy crap... Isn't this a big hole for some serious resume padding?
 
My question to you all is...

Do the people with NO publications who come out of the MD/PhD program EVER end up in academia doing research?

My guess is that they do not.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the academic institutions to "protect" their investment and force students to publish before graduation. They want to make academic scientists. Who cares what YOU want- they're paying the bill. I know this was a policy at my institution... they also want to protect their name. Those that successfully complete the program should be used to build the program's reputation for quality, not leniency.
 
Do the people with NO publications who come out of the MD/PhD program EVER end up in academia doing research?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the academic institutions to "protect" their investment and force students to publish before graduation. They want to make academic scientists.

What's implied here is that forcing a student to get a publication during their PhD is going to somehow make them into academic scientists. I just don't see it? I think sluox's point is well taken. Some of these students aren't going to do academics anyway. So why force them to continue? Then there was my earlier point: if you do want to do academics I don't think not having that publication is going to hurt you very much in the long run.

My guess is that if you force lots of students to hang around a really long time when they don't want to you're going to get a lot of dropouts and the occasional suicide.
 
At Virginia Commonwealth University, where I'm applying in a little bit, you're mandated to stay within the top 1/3 of the class. Failure to stay in the top 2/3 gets you kicked out of the program, and then you have to retroactively pay back your tuition with interest.

I'm pretty sure the fear of God keeps those M.D/Ph.D students high in the class ranks, at least in Virginia.
 
At Virginia Commonwealth University, where I'm applying in a little bit, you're mandated to stay within the top 1/3 of the class. Failure to stay in the top 2/3 gets you kicked out of the program, and then you have to retroactively pay back your tuition with interest.

I'm pretty sure the fear of God keeps those M.D/Ph.D students high in the class ranks, at least in Virginia.

:eyebrow::scared:

I knew there was a reason why I only recommended MSTPs. It's goofy policies like this one! I wonder if it's enforced. Once and awhile you see programs that do have policies like these that aren't actually enforced, but they do still scare you.

BTW, I don't think they can force you to repay your tuition, especially with interest. Rumor has it someone successfully fought this in court years ago, which essentially ended payback. The NIGMS forbids it now anyways. Payback is a sick practice that to me means indentured servitude or usury and easily lends itself to abuse.
 
I think most VCU MD/PhD students believe they will have to pay it back, although I don't. (But I'm not in the program.) I do know one guy who got booted after M1 and didn't have to pay anything back.

I agree that payback policies are really outrageous and a big red flag.
 
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