Med school after PhD in physics?

[physicsguy]

Hi everyone. So I've got a rather strange question, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

I'm currently 25 years old and a 3rd year PhD student in physics. However, after graduating I don't plan to continue on in my physics career. I certainly enjoy being in grad school and getting to work on interesting research for free, but when thinking more long-term, publish or perish doesn't sound like an appealing career to me, and I really don't want to go into engineering. I'd much rather work in a career that has more human interaction while still being somewhat science-based. I've always been interested in medicine (back in college I was pre-med for my first two years), and recently this is something I've thought about pursuing. I was wondering if any doctors or med students could tell me if it's realistic to go to med school after doing a physics PhD and being somewhat removed from undergrad. Here's all of my relevant academic info:

BS degrees in physics and math
Undergrad GPA: 3.1
Graduate GPA (not sure if they care about this): 3.43
Science courses:
2 semesters inorganic chemistry (with lab)
1 semester organic chemistry (no lab)
1 semester biology (with lab)
...and obviously a lot of physics and math classes
And I'll have my PhD in physics sometime in 2012

In addition to the general "is it possible/feasible?" question, I've got a few specific queries as well:

1.) Most of my non-physics science classes were taken between three and four years ago. Assuming decent performance on the MCAT, will admissions committees care that I didn't take these classes recently?

2.) I'm aware that most med schools would want me to have another semester of organic chemistry, the organic lab, and biochemistry; would good grades in these classes offset the relatively low undergrad GPA?

3.) Are there any other classes that I should take? And is it OK if I take the remaining pre-med science courses at any local university, or would I need to apply to a post-bac program?

4.) How does my graduate GPA factor into a med school application, if at all?

5.) I know med schools want their applicants to do extra-curricular activities and do volunteer work that involves clinical experiences. What does this look like for non-traditional applicants who aren't in a position to join campus clubs and have day jobs (nighttime too for us research assistants) who don't have as much free time to spend on clinical volunteer work?

6.) Does having a PhD in such an irrelevant (to medicine) field as physics help or hinder a med school application? Or do they simply not take it into consideration at all?

Anyway, I would certainly appreciate any doctors' or med students' opinions on all of this. Would applying to med school be a crazy idea, or do I stand a chance?

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[sindadel]

1.) Most of my non-physics science classes were taken between three and four years ago. Assuming decent performance on the MCAT, will admissions committees care that I didn't take these classes recently?

No, that is not very long ago.

2.) I'm aware that most med schools would want me to have another semester of organic chemistry, the organic lab, and biochemistry; would good grades in these classes offset the relatively low undergrad GPA?

Yes, you will need to take these classes and get A's in them. No, good grades in a few classes will not offset your lower uGPA. As far as I understand, graduate GPA is not relevant.

You will need to do GPA repair as your GPA is too low to have a good shot at admission. This will be slower with MD applications as they average new grades into your cumulative GPA and you (presumably) have 4 full years of undergrad credits as well. With DO applications, you can replace previous poor grades. This works faster if you have some D/F grades bringing down your average, but it'll be a slow process if what you have is a lot of B's.

3.) Are there any other classes that I should take? And is it OK if I take the remaining pre-med science courses at any local university, or would I need to apply to a post-bac program?

Any university is fine. Your overall academic credentials are not in question. I don't think a post-bac program would take you as those are only for people who haven't done any pre-med work. You might want to consider a Special Master's Program with a good linkage - they specialize in non-trads with low uGPA and "test" you by making you take something like 1st year med curriculum.

4.) How does my graduate GPA factor into a med school application, if at all?

I don't think it does.

5.) I know med schools want their applicants to do extra-curricular activities and do volunteer work that involves clinical experiences. What does this look like for non-traditional applicants who aren't in a position to join campus clubs and have day jobs (nighttime too for us research assistants) who don't have as much free time to spend on clinical volunteer work?

You are not excused from being actively involved in clinical volunteering, community service, leadership roles etc. Start by committing a few hours a week each Friday night/Saturday morning volunteering in the ER. Join your graduate student association and organize some community outreach.

6.) Does having a PhD in such an irrelevant (to medicine) field as physics help or hinder a med school application? Or do they simply not take it into consideration at all?

I'm sure it makes you stand out in a good way. Some programs will really like it, and some won't care much.

Anyway, I would certainly appreciate any doctors' or med students' opinions on all of this. Would applying to med school be a crazy idea, or do I stand a chance?

No one can tell you if you should apply or not. Start by volunteering and see how you like it. It will be quite a long process to get your GPA up a bit, and how you do on the MCAT will also affect your competitiveness a bit. You do stand a chance though.

 

[physicsguy]

Sindadel, thank you for your reply. I have a few additional questions.

You will need to do GPA repair as your GPA is too low to have a good shot at admission. This will be slower with MD applications as they average new grades into your cumulative GPA and you (presumably) have 4 full years of undergrad credits as well. With DO applications, you can replace previous poor grades. This works faster if you have some D/F grades bringing down your average, but it'll be a slow process if what you have is a lot of B's.

Would I be right to assume that AMCAS calculates the GPA automatically, and that grades from all of my undergrad institutions are supposed to be factored in? I'm asking because the relatively low GPA is a result of (of all things) a bunch of humanities courses I took my freshman and sophomore years. However, back in high school I took quite a few classes, including several science classes, at my local community college. I actually avoided taking most of my generals in college because of these classes. Forgive me if I'm being naive, but if I were to factor these grades in, then my undergrad GPA would be considerably higher. So I would be very interested to better understand how the relevant GPA is supposed to be calculated on my application.

Any university is fine. Your overall academic credentials are not in question. I don't think a post-bac program would take you as those are only for people who haven't done any pre-med work. You might want to consider a Special Master's Program with a good linkage - they specialize in non-trads with low uGPA and "test" you by making you take something like 1st year med curriculum.

Could you elaborate on the special master's program? What field of study is it in?

I'm sure it makes you stand out in a good way. Some programs will really like it, and some won't care much.

Really? I didn't think that any program would consider a physics PhD to be a plus at all, but hey, I'll take any advantage I can get. Do you have a few examples of programs that would look favorably on this?

Thanks again for your input.

 

[schrizto]

a famous (sort of) person with a PhD in physics and an MD: sandeep jauhar.

 

[sindadel]

Sindadel, thank you for your reply. I have a few additional questions.



Would I be right to assume that AMCAS calculates the GPA automatically, and that grades from all of my undergrad institutions are supposed to be factored in? I'm asking because the relatively low GPA is a result of (of all things) a bunch of humanities courses I took my freshman and sophomore years. However, back in high school I took quite a few classes, including several science classes, at my local community college. I actually avoided taking most of my generals in college because of these classes. Forgive me if I'm being naive, but if I were to factor these grades in, then my undergrad GPA would be considerably higher. So I would be very interested to better understand how the relevant GPA is supposed to be calculated on my application.

As I understand it, AMCAS factors in every college-level class you have ever taken, including while you were in high school. So, absolutely, add those in - you'll have to anyway for your application and they will improve things for you. There's a spreadsheet floating around which makes this process easier, but you can make your own. [sum of (GPA * units) ]/ total units, where an A/A+ = 4.0, A-=3.7, B+=3.3 etc.

Could you elaborate on the special master's program? What field of study is it in?

Other people are much more knowledgeable about this - there might even be a forum on SDN about SMPs.

They're expensive, and you're looking for one which has very high percentage rates of graduates getting into med school. You basically do the first year med school curriculum for no credit, and if you perform well, an associated medical school will very likely accept you. I believe you would have to have all the other pieces of your application in good order (references, MCAT, volunteering, clinical exposure etc.) But it's a chance to demonstrate your academic prowess. Of course, poor performance in an SMP can really sink your chances.

Really? I didn't think that any program would consider a physics PhD to be a plus at all, but hey, I'll take any advantage I can get. Do you have a few examples of programs that would look favorably on this?

Thanks again for your input.

No idea about specific programs - sorry. It's just an unusual attribute which will cause you to stand out among a sea of applicants. It would be nice if you could move your research a little more medical, or maybe do a project with a clinician while still in grad school - help to tie you together as a cohesive application package.

 

[physicsguy]

As I understand it, AMCAS factors in every college-level class you have ever taken, including while you were in high school. So, absolutely, add those in - you'll have to anyway for your application and they will improve things for you. There's a spreadsheet floating around which makes this process easier, but you can make your own. [sum of (GPA * units) ]/ total units, where an A/A+ = 4.0, A-=3.7, B+=3.3 etc.

Thanks, that actually does improve my GPA (the one AMCAS would calculate). Including all of those extra courses I took, it would be 3.22. A marginal improvement, but good nonetheless.

No idea about specific programs - sorry. It's just an unusual attribute which will cause you to stand out among a sea of applicants. It would be nice if you could move your research a little more medical, or maybe do a project with a clinician while still in grad school - help to tie you together as a cohesive application package.

Actually, I have always been thinking about a postdoc in medical physics (not even so much because of the medical tie in, but because the research involved is surprisingly similar to the gammay ray/high energy stuff I do right now). How would research in clinical medical physics affect a med school application?

 

[QofQuimica]

You'll find a lot of good info for PhDs-to-MDs here. Also, other threads linked in the sticky provide useful info on applying to med school for nontrads in general.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Francis Collins did it. No reason why you can't.

 

[physicsguy]

Q, thanks for the link. Here's another question for you guys about calculating GPA. From what you guys are telling me, it would seem that graduate courses should not be factored in. Back in undergrad I took a couple graduate courses in physics and math; should I count these? In graduate school, I'll also be taking a few undergrad courses (my department makes me take two of these, and I figure I might also take a couple med school prereqs as well). Would I count these when calculating my GPA?

 

[sindadel]

You can always call AMCAS to make certain of questions like these. I'm not sure of the nitty-gritty.

 

[njbmd]

Q, thanks for the link. Here's another question for you guys about calculating GPA. From what you guys are telling me, it would seem that graduate courses should not be factored in. Back in undergrad I took a couple graduate courses in physics and math; should I count these? In graduate school, I'll also be taking a few undergrad courses (my department makes me take two of these, and I figure I might also take a couple med school prereqs as well). Would I count these when calculating my GPA?

Graduate coursework (any course that counted toward your graduate degree) is not compiled with your undergraduate coursework. Your graduate coursework needs to have a high GPA (this is expected 3.6 or better).

Your uGPA is the major deciding factor as to admission into medical school. If you took undergraduate-level coursework as a graduate student but received "graduate credit" it will not be counted with your undergraduate work.

Post bacc (undergraduate work not taken as credit toward a graduate degree but taken after bachelors degree is received) will count toward raising a poor uGPA. This is why post bacc work (either retaking your poor undergraduate coursework or new coursework at the undergraduate level) will raise your uGPA.

Do keep in mind that AMCAS averages grades for coursework that is retaken and ACOMAS will replace the old grade with the new grade. This means that you can raise your uGPA higher faster by applying to osteopathic medical schools. Under the AMCAS system, if you have a significant number of hours that are poor, you won't see much change in your uGPA with retakes.

Also keep in mind that graduate school is weighted about the same as an extracurricular activity outside of the SMPs that are designed for credential enhancement. You can go to the AAMC website and search for post baccs which will give you a list of postbacc programs and SMPS across the nation.They are also broken down as to level (masters, undergrad/certificate).

There is also contact information on that website too. Many institutions are now offering post bacc programs/certificates because they are a huge revenue source (Lot's of folks are trying to get into medical school these days).

 

[physicsguy]

Njbmd: As weird as it is to say this, sadly I don't have an abundance of Ds or Fs in my undergraduate work. Mostly just a bunch of Bs. Can I take this to mean that there's no significant advantage to retaking courses and/or applying to DO schools?

Also, any coursework I take while in graduate school counts towards my PhD, which, based on what you said, means that it doesn't count towards my GPA. Now, I'd like to knock off a couple more prerequisites in grad school, because grad students can take classes for free (the only tangible cost being that our advisors yell at us for not doing research). Should I do this, or will I not be able to count those courses as prereqs if they're taken as part of a graduate degree?

Finally, what's the advantage of going to a formal post-bacc program versus simply taking classes at my local community college or university?

Thanks again for your help.

EDIT: Oh by the way, I noticed that I made an error calculating my GPA (you'd think physicists can do simple arithmetic). Including all the coursework I've taken before grad school, it's 3.28. Not sure if this affects the amount of GPA repair I've got to do, or the MCAT score I should be shooting for, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[menotyou7]

Physicsguy,

I don't have time to read through all of the previous responses, so some of this may be a repeat.

I am currently a first year medical student at an allopathic medical school. Prior to matriculation, I completed my PhD in microbiology and immunology at yet a different allopathic medical school. Like you, my uGPA sucked (3.1), but I did well on the MCAT (33).

So here is my advice to you.

1st. Finish you PhD. If you finish it, it's a great talking point and will get you noticed. If you bail on the PhD and leave with a masters, your graduate work could be interpreted as a liability. Get published.

2nd. Apply very broadly. There were ALOT of schools that screened me out based on my uGPA before they even got to the MCAT and PhD part. I applied to 17 schools and recieved 6 interview invitations. I turned down two interviews (after I had an acceptance). Of the four interviews I attended, I was accepted at one, waitlisted at two and rejected at one (my PhD school - go figure). All of my interviews went well. I really think the undergraduate GPA was what got me waitlisted/rejected.

3rd. Make sure that your personal statement and extracurriculars convey why you want to go into medicine and why you know that research is not the right career for you. I volunteered at a hospital, attended AMA conferences, and did a huge amount of shadowing (>100 hours). Really sell it.

4th. By the time you interview, have a time frame set for your defense. I'm not saying you have to have a date, but it would be good to have a month. I had most of my interviews in Oct/Nov, and was able to say, "Yea, we are scheduling my defense for February. It doesn't look like graduating on time to matriculate will be much of a problem it all. In fact, I think the bigger question will be trying to figure out what to do with the time between graduation and starting school in the fall..." Don't let them doubt for a second that you won't graduate on time.

ok, I think that's all I've got. Good luck to you!

 

[menotyou7]

oh, I just saw your last question.

For what it's worth, I love medical school. It's sooooooo much better than getting a doctorate. Best. Decision. Ever.

 

[njbmd]

Njbmd: As weird as it is to say this, sadly I don't have an abundance of Ds or Fs in my undergraduate work. Mostly just a bunch of Bs. Can I take this to mean that there's no significant advantage to retaking courses and/or applying to DO schools?

Also, any coursework I take while in graduate school counts towards my PhD, which, based on what you said, means that it doesn't count towards my GPA. Now, I'd like to knock off a couple more prerequisites in grad school, because grad students can take classes for free (the only tangible cost being that our advisors yell at us for not doing research). Should I do this, or will I not be able to count those courses as prereqs if they're taken as part of a graduate degree?

Finally, what's the advantage of going to a formal post-bacc program versus simply taking classes at my local community college or university?

Thanks again for your help.

EDIT: Oh by the way, I noticed that I made an error calculating my GPA (you'd think physicists can do simple arithmetic). Including all the coursework I've taken before grad school, it's 3.28. Not sure if this affects the amount of GPA repair I've got to do, or the MCAT score I should be shooting for, but I thought I'd mention it.

If you take undergrad courses while in your graduate program, just don't let them count towards your graduate degree. If you can do that, then they will be considered post bacc which is what you want to take in the first place.

Since you have a prior bachelor's degree and since you will have a graduate degree in a physical science, there is little difference for you in taking your coursework at a community college as compared to a four-year college as long as the coursework is of sufficient depth and breadth.

You do need to make sure that the medical schools that you will apply to will take community college coursework (a handful will not). Other than avoiding those schools that don't take community college coursework, you will be fine and in today's economy, the price is right.

For you, go to the cheapest and more logistically sound place that will provide the coursework that you need. You don't have to prove that you can do work at the doctorate level since you will have completed a doctorate by the time you apply to medical school.

If you can find a formal post bacc program with linkage, you would be set because doing well in one of these programs would get you into medical school faster. You could get everything completed in a shorter period of time and be guaranteed a seat in medical school as long as you performed well.

 

[physicsguy]

Njbmd, thanks for explaining about all of this. One thing stuck out to me.

If you can find a formal post bacc program with linkage, you would be set because doing well in one of these programs would get you into medical school faster. You could get everything completed in a shorter period of time and be guaranteed a seat in medical school as long as you performed well.

How does this work? Are their post-bacc programs associated with med schools which will guarantee you a spot so long as you meet a minimum level of performance? I would be extremely interested to learn mroe about this.

Menotyou7, thanks for sharing your experiences as a fellow PhD student. Regarding the GPA issue, this is something I've been thinking about a lot in light of others' comments about the irrelevance of graduate GPA and the importance of undergrad GPA. Is there a way to know how individual schools filter based on GPA? I'm a long way from sending out applications, but I'd rather not spend the money applying to schools whose computers will filter me out. Also, do you think that your graduate coursework played any role in getting admitted, besides being regarded as an extracurricular?

oh, I just saw your last question.

For what it's worth, I love medical school. It's sooooooo much better than getting a doctorate. Best. Decision. Ever.

I can certainly understand. I started to figure out in my senior year of undergrad that I wouldn't like academia, since the road from graduate student to professorship is arduous and full of pitfalls (apparently less than half of physics PhDs end up getting faculty positions). And I don't think I'd even get that much out of being a professor. Don't get me wrong, I love graduate school. I get to work on physics research, I don't have to worry about applying for grants, and they actually pay me. But I don't know that I would like a job that requires me to look for funding every few years and to do research that doesn't directly benefit anyone (not that basic science research isn't important). Medicine seems more like the right balance of science and human interaction.

 

[physicsguy]

Another random question for you guys. So far I've been implicitly assuming that the standard med school prereqs are two semesters each of inorganic and organic chemistry, and one semester of biochemistry (I'm guessing I meet the physics/math prereqs by default). This is based on looking at just a couple of medical schools. Is this pretty standard, or do most schools require anything that I'm missing?

 

[njbmd]

Another random question for you guys. So far I've been implicitly assuming that the standard med school prereqs are two semesters each of inorganic and organic chemistry, and one semester of biochemistry (I'm guessing I meet the physics/math prereqs by default). This is based on looking at just a couple of medical schools. Is this pretty standard, or do most schools require anything that I'm missing?

A year of General Biology with lab. You should also check the schools that interest you most and make sure that they don't require Genetics/Molecular Biology or something else. Most schools do not require biochemistry.

 

[physicsguy]

At my undergraduate school, the biology course offered for non-majors is only a one semester class. And the medical school there only requires one semester. Do medical schools want applicants to take the biology course for biology majors?

 

[Hass87]

Physicsguy,

1st. Finish you PhD. If you finish it, it's a great talking point and will get you noticed. If you bail on the PhD and leave with a masters, your graduate work could be interpreted as a liability. Get published.

2nd. Apply very broadly. There were ALOT of schools that screened me out based on my uGPA before they even got to the MCAT and PhD part. I applied to 17 schools and recieved 6 interview invitations. I turned down two interviews (after I had an acceptance). Of the four interviews I attended, I was accepted at one, waitlisted at two and rejected at one (my PhD school - go figure). All of my interviews went well. I really think the undergraduate GPA was what got me waitlisted/rejected.

Im actually in a similar situation but Im applying with a masters...do you mind sharing how many publications/conference presentations you had and if you think they helped your application a lot?
Also...which schools gave you interviews...if you dont mind?