Medical Student Tsunami Rumors

[JanikeyDoc]

Hello, I am currently based in Australia and I spoke to a few people at Sydney area medical schools who say there will be a tsunami of medical students graduating in 2012 and later, this means it will become much harder to get internship positions and into residency training programs in Australia. I like Australia but I am worried that as a potential international student that I will wind up on the short end of the stick when it comes time to graduate. Are these fears overblown? I just checked on the USyd MedSoc website and saw something that bothered me, it turns out that many local students are also worried about this. Is it really going to be a big risk to go to Australia for medical school? I have been looking at my stats, I think I should be competitve for Grad Entry medicine in Australia but also competitive for American DO schools. Would I just be better off doing the latter?

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[redshifteffect]

Hello, I am currently based in Australia and I spoke to a few people at Sydney area medical schools who say there will be a tsunami of medical students graduating in 2012 and later, this means it will become much harder to get internship positions and into residency training programs in Australia. I like Australia but I am worried that as a potential international student that I will wind up on the short end of the stick when it comes time to graduate. Are these fears overblown? I just checked on the USyd MedSoc website and saw something that bothered me, it turns out that many local students are also worried about this. Is it really going to be a big risk to go to Australia for medical school? I have been looking at my stats, I think I should be competitve for Grad Entry medicine in Australia but also competitive for American DO schools. Would I just be better off doing the latter?

I've had a lot of discussions with people in charge of medical education/recruitment and particularly been on committees at the AMC so over the last 2 years this topic has been discussed ad nauseam - here is what I've heard.

Basically there will certainly be a "flood" of medical students in the sense that there will be a lot more graduating in the next few years then have previously graduated. The states have known about this for some time as have the people in charge. This was not a decision of the AMC but rather by the government, so unfortunately the AMC had little choice in the matter (or at least that's what I'm told).

I've seen evidence in an increase in intern positions in all the states, with more plans to increase numbers. A lot of innovative trial programs are being tested at the moment including putting intern positions in places like private hospitals and community placements to try and bolster jobs.

Long term security for doctors in Australia is a guarantee. I didn't think so but the more I've been working in the industry the more I realise that most of the consultants across a wide range of fields are going to retire within the next 5-10 years. The average age of the GPs in Australia is in the late 50s, and this is the case for most specialties as well. Over the few conferences I've attended in the last couple of years, I've seen consultants in large cities looking to retire but being forced to work because no suitable candidate has been found to replace them. This is in a wide range of fields from Pathology through to Haematology.

For international students the picture is a little murky - the main issue being of course that awkward period between graduation and the completion of internship and part way into your RMO/Registrar year when you do not have a PR. There is no doubt things will get tough, but there should be some jobs out there, probably not in the most attractive places (the large metropolitan hospitals). The reason I say this is that at the moment there are a huge number of overseas trained doctors working in Australian hospitals - regardless of where you go, conferences, small hospitals, large hospitals etc the Australian health care system relies heavily on them. In my subjective experience they do so more heavily then any other Western country I've rotated in/worked in. The net result of the governments actions will be that these people will have fewer job opportunities as their jobs will be replaced by local graduates - and as an Australian graduate you will be higher on the "pecking" order then these IMGs.

Finally in answer to your question, I noted on another thread that you are 50/50 about returning to the US. My suggestion would be that for you (being undecided) the US DO degree would be the way to go. Although it will make it very difficult (most likely impossible) to work in Australia - you will be able to secure a residency in the US. If you are a US Citizen/PR this will be made even easier. The gamble on Australia at this stage isn't one to take lightly especially if you have other less risky options.

*Edit*
In terms of registrar positions there has been an increase in many positions and funding has been provided for even more. I saw first hand that GP training positions were increased on the fly by about 200 extra jobs in 2009/2010 with a review taking place in 2010 to see if a further increase is needed. In all the years I've been watching CaRMS I've never seen an equivalent situation in Canada, though their need for GPs is as great as it is in Australia. So it seems the funding and motivation to increase training positions is there.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

I am actually temporarily residing in Australia working for a multinational company for the year, I like it here but a bit undecided on making this a permanent move. Is it advisable to get a PR first and then apply? I met a student from the US who applied for PR, took the GAMSAT and is now at local Australian medical school. Or is this flood of students going to affect even some local students as well?

 

[redshifteffect]

I am actually temporarily residing in Australia working for a multinational company for the year, I like it here but a bit undecided on making this a permanent move. Is it advisable to get a PR first and then apply? I met a student from the US who applied for PR, took the GAMSAT and is now at local Australian medical school. Or is this flood of students going to affect even some local students as well?

I would definitely recommend you to get your PR and then apply first. Not only will it save you a lot of money in the long run, but you will be guaranteed a job, and be exempt from the 10 year moratorium. I don't really see any downside to this, other then you having to write the GAMSAT.

I think the flood will affect local students to a minor extent - they will find it more competitive to get jobs in the most popular places. At this stage many local students can "walk" into jobs almost everywhere with very little effort (when compared to say getting a match in Canada/US) but this is going to get more competitive in the future. However the government when they created the extra spots, also legislated the creation of extra training positions to fill these spots, and suprisingly actually providing funding for this to happen. So hopefully the tsunami will not be as bad as everyone thinks.

However that does not change the fact that if you have mixed feelings the best thing would still be to go the US DO route. I think it gives you a better chance to work in the US.

 

[Daemos]

I think the flood will affect local students to a minor extent - they will find it more competitive to get jobs in the most popular places. At this stage many local students can "walk" into jobs almost everywhere with very little effort (when compared to say getting a match in Canada/US) but this is going to get more competitive in the future. However the government when they created the extra spots, also legislated the creation of extra training positions to fill these spots, and suprisingly actually providing funding for this to happen. So hopefully the tsunami will not be as bad as everyone thinks.

Good to hear...esp as a Canadian that wants to go to Oz to study and hopefully live. And I agree with you 100% Canada just isn't doing enough, BC is in debates on a 'makeshift' solution by allowing Naturopaths to have Prescription rights to Section I and II pharmaceuticals as well as test ordering rights and minor surgery privileges (amongst others)

Although I don't imagine what I want to do to be competitive, at least it's not very competitive in Canada or the US (internal medicine)

 

[redshifteffect]

Good to hear...esp as a Canadian that wants to go to Oz to study and hopefully live. And I agree with you 100% Canada just isn't doing enough, BC is in debates on a 'makeshift' solution by allowing Naturopaths to have Prescription rights to Section I and II pharmaceuticals as well as test ordering rights and minor surgery privileges (amongst others)

Although I don't imagine what I want to do to be competitive, at least it's not very competitive in Canada or the US (internal medicine)

You see this is what I find hard to believe. Basically the BC government is saying that Naturopaths with no medical training whatsoever are better then the 100s of Canadian citizens who have been trained in the UK/Ireland/Oz.

Instead of spending money to increase training positions, or cutting the red tape to allow students who have completed residency in these countries they are trusting the lives of their patients to Naturopaths? LOL.

Dont' get me wrong the Australian government is far from perfect - but a single event (a few students in Tasmania not getting into general practice) and they nationally increased the GP training numbers, plus all the people who couldn't get in (lack of spots, not lack of quality) got job offers. You don't even have to have a PR or Citzenship to get into a residency in Australia.

 

[shan564]

Consider that if you get PR before you apply to med school in Australia, you'll be competing for admission with the local students instead of the international students. That'll make it harder for you to get in.

 

[Daemos]

You see this is what I find hard to believe. Basically the BC government is saying that Naturopaths with no medical training whatsoever are better then the 100s of Canadian citizens who have been trained in the UK/Ireland/Oz.

Instead of spending money to increase training positions, or cutting the red tape to allow students who have completed residency in these countries they are trusting the lives of their patients to Naturopaths? LOL.

Dont' get me wrong the Australian government is far from perfect - but a single event (a few students in Tasmania not getting into general practice) and they nationally increased the GP training numbers, plus all the people who couldn't get in (lack of spots, not lack of quality) got job offers. You don't even have to have a PR or Citzenship to get into a residency in Australia.

well it seems there is a large support group in favor of the naturopaths in BC. My brother is moving to BC shortly because he wants to be a naturopath because he believes they are superior to allopathic medical doctors.

It also seems the "intergrated health care" field is growing in Canada...

things like this make me *facepalm*

i wouldnt have a problem if they didnt rely on unproven treatments and could prove they are as safe and competant as they claim to be. Many alternative providers have treatment for certain things that are proven...but most try to sell the unproven magical miracle cures just for a profit.

 

[redshifteffect]

Consider that if you get PR before you apply to med school in Australia, you'll be competing for admission with the local students instead of the international students. That'll make it harder for you to get in.

I think international admission is thought to be difficult, and local admission is thought to be easy but this isn't necessairly true anymore.

Last year there were literally 1000s of applicants for about 10 international spots in Tasmania. A friend who got her PR recently got into UQ as a local with marginal BMedSci marks, no interview and a reasonable GAMSAT.

It might make (in theory; at some Unis) it slightly more difficult, but the advantages of the PR far outweight not having one.

*Edit* Added a disclaimer above as I can't be certain about every University

 

[Daemos]

I think international admission is thought to be difficult, and local admission is thought to be easy but this isn't necessairly true anymore.

Last year there were literally 1000s of applicants for about 10 international spots in Tasmania. A frie arginal BMedSci marks, no interview and a reasonable GAMSAT.

It might make it slightly more difficult, but the advantages of the PR far outweight not having one.

so you're saying international spots are more competitive? your first two paragraphs contradict eachother...

well hopefully the graduate entry programs are easier =)

 

[redshifteffect]

so you're saying international spots are more competitive? your first two paragraphs contradict eachother...

well hopefully the graduate entry programs are easier =)

I think they [international spots] are getting very competitive. But it depends which school you apply to.

I know the statistics for Tasmania as I know the admissions committee - and I've had several friends who've applied over the last few years who haven't been able to get in.

On the other hand, I had common classes in the first year of medical school, and personally know some of the Medical Science students who got into Med (as locals) in UQ this year. Their Grades/GAMSATs weren't exactly earth shattering.

All my post was trying to highlight is that getting into an international spots isn't as easy as some may think, and that if you have a PR your life will be much easier in the long run, so even if it were more competitive (which I'm not saying it is) it's worth it.

 

[Daemos]

i guess i can only hope i get a spot =D. i only applied to two schools in oz so heres to hoping =)

but id most likely be looking to get my pr asap after i graduate. have you applied for your pr yet?

 

[redshifteffect]

Yes, I applied for my PR about a month ago. Still have a lot of paperwork to hand in though, so here's hoping it's granted soon

As for your sitaution, I'd definitely apply everywhere. You have nothing to lose by applying to more places. Worse case scenario you turn them down if you really don't want to go.

 

[Daemos]

nice!

the ones i applied to have a rolling admissions or a early round admissions. and they were free to apply to =)

they are also the most affordable ones. =)

the other ones can wait until i figure out if i get into the other schools as they do not have a rolling admissions (at least that i know of...)

 

[redshifteffect]

nice!

the ones i applied to have a rolling admissions or a early round admissions. and they were free to apply to =)

they are also the most affordable ones. =)

the other ones can wait until i figure out if i get into the other schools as they do not have a rolling admissions (at least that i know of...)

Fair enough.

Have you considered some of the 5 year programs as well? For an extra year increasing your chances of getting in a med school is worth it.

 

[Daemos]

Fair enough.

Have you considered some of the 5 year programs as well? For an extra year increasing your chances of getting in a med school is worth it.

Which are the 5 year programs? Would they accept the MCAT? or would I need to write a different test?

Although I personally would rather get into a 4 year graduate program, more people my age instead of 18 year olds...

 

[redshifteffect]

Most don't require any test, but some may require ISAT. This is basically an IQ test so it wont' require much study.

UTAS is a 5 year program - there are others like Monash.

 

[Daemos]

the only problem is the age difference, lol...I'm not too sure how mature most 18 year olds are in Aus...but most 18 year olds I come across...well that's why all my friends are around my age =)

 

[redshifteffect]

the only problem is the age difference, lol...I'm not too sure how mature most 18 year olds are in Aus...but most 18 year olds I come across...well that's why all my friends are around my age =)

Keep in mind though that the 18 year olds are in medical school; may be a slightly different crowd then the 18 year olds you are used to.

Also there are plenty of mature age students in undergrad programs. The record I saw was a 55 year old. He is still one of my best mates.

He actually got the spot over his 18 year old son (who applied the same year)

 

[jdefoe]

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't understand the Australian medical system (although I'm hoping to learn more in case I end up working there), but it sounds like the Australian government is opening up more GP positions for the anticipated flood of med school grads, but not necessarily specialist positions too? And that the only sort of "guarantee" for the various specialist positions opening up is retiring specialists? Is this correct?

 

[redshifteffect]

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't understand the Australian medical system (although I'm hoping to learn more in case I end up working there), but it sounds like the Australian government is opening up more GP positions for the anticipated flood of med school grads, but not necessarily specialist positions too? And that the only sort of "guarantee" for the various specialist positions opening up is retiring specialists? Is this correct?

No that is not correct.

Although the government opening up more GP positions is the most visible sign of their increasing positions there have been a lot of new training positions created. There was a presentation at a recent Pathology conference that there will be 50 new Pathology positions created this year alone - I've been told (by the AMC) that there is a lot of funding going around for other positions as well however I do not have any specific numbers.

As for retiring Consultants - this is just to show that there will be a lot of new jobs coming up soon. I was quite surprised to find IMGs who got Consultant jobs at some of the largest hospitals in the country fresh after finishing exams.

 

[shan564]

At Sydney and Queensland, the GAMSAT cutoff was lower for international students than it was for local students - in other words, it was easier to get in for international students. I don't know about the other schools.

 

[adrianus]

I would definitely recommend you to get your PR and then apply first. Not only will it save you a lot of money in the long run, but you will be guaranteed a job, and be exempt from the 10 year moratorium.

Hi redshifeffect, i am not sure about he 10 year moratorium... What does it mean and how does it affect international students?

Also, when can international students apply for PR after graduating from medical school? After completing internship or after being a registrar?

Thanks a million! =)

 

[Daemos]

Keep in mind though that the 18 year olds are in medical school; may be a slightly different crowd then the 18 year olds you are used to.

Also there are plenty of mature age students in undergrad programs. The record I saw was a 55 year old. He is still one of my best mates.

He actually got the spot over his 18 year old son (who applied the same year)

lol...that means I can hit on 18 year old girls... oh wait...

 

[thinker]

lol @ daemos

so just a follow up on the age question. what is the age profile of the classes in UQ, Sydney and Wollongong let's say? are there official numbers published on the university websites? I don't remember finding anything like that. Because if I get accepted into an Australian program i will be 25 and done a Master's degree.. I DEFINITELY don't want to hang around with 18-year-olds. I sure hope the majority will be 21+.

 

[Daemos]

same i'll be 25 if i get accepted to go in feb 2010

 

[shan564]

The average age for my program (USyd) is 23.74. There are plenty of people who are 25-28 years old, and there are also several who are 30-40 or older. I'm 23, and I feel like I'm pretty normal (maybe on the younger side).

 

[thinker]

thanks that's pretty encouraging to know

regarding the topic at hand. I'm still a premed but personally I don't think anybody going to Australia should be worried too much as long as you are willing to work hard. IMG's from all over the world land residencies in the US.. many of them don't even study in English and they score amazing at STEP1... and here we are talking about Australia which is first world country.

But i have a question regarding the timeline of applying to residencies in Australia VS. US.. can you apply to both streams simultaneously? and the results of which system do you get first? and can you hold a spot while still waiting to hear about the match results in the other system?? how does it work exactly?

 

[redshifteffect]

thanks that's pretty encouraging to know

regarding the topic at hand. I'm still a premed but personally I don't think anybody going to Australia should be worried too much as long as you are willing to work hard. IMG's from all over the world land residencies in the US.. many of them don't even study in English and they score amazing at STEP1... and here we are talking about Australia which is first world country.

But i have a question regarding the timeline of applying to residencies in Australia VS. US.. can you apply to both streams simultaneously? and the results of which system do you get first? and can you hold a spot while still waiting to hear about the match results in the other system?? how does it work exactly?

If you have a look at the NRMP website:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/yearly.html

The match registration process begins in August. I'm not sure if you require your degree to be able to apply for a match (may also depend on the visa H1b vs. J1) but if you're Canadian don't forget that if you are applying for the J1 you will be required to write the MCCEE which you write in the year of your graduation. If you do require your degree you won't get that until December of your final year.

In Australia internship applications are typically held in June and depending on where you apply you will get offers by July/August. If you accept your first few offers you will pretty much have your job lined up by the end of July early August.

As for applying to both streams, you can apply to both at the same time, but you won't be able to start working until the middle of the following year (in the US) and your internship job in Australia will start in early Jan. So to be able to accept the job in the US you would technically have to quit your internship. I do not recommend this as it's not only unprofessional but will disadvantage any future interns from NA coming through. Just imagine how pissed off your hospital in the US would be if you just quit mid way into your first year. If you wouldn't do something like that in the US you shouldn't do something like that in Australia.

If you're confident about matching in the US (right after graduation) then just don't bother applying to Australia, but if you do apply to Australia, finish off your internship year, then get a 3 or 6 month RMO contract rather then a full year one and then apply for a match in the US (during your intern year for the following year). It's much easier to replace RMOs then Interns.

 

[thinker]

Redshifteffect, Thank you very much for the very valuable input here and in other topics.
It's a good idea to do the RMO contract then. definitely don't want to take somebody's place and then leave it half way through.
I'm not really interested in coming back to Canada. so it's either US or Aussie for me. And right now I'm only thinking US because I'm still a little unsure of Australia and it's opportunities.. But I think it will be best to stay in Australia as the graduate will likely be able to match into a better residency than if he was to relocate again to the US where he has no contacts and references. But it's good to keep both options viable.. and this RMO thing might do it.

thanks again.

 

[redshifteffect]

No worries.

I think it's a good plan. The medical staffing people are extremely reasonable if you let them know in advance what you are planning on doing. I had a few RMO jobs lined up and accepted but I told them I was waiting on hearing from the GP and Pathology programs and they not only held my spot but were willing to give me a 1 year contract (which I needed for Visa purposes) but were going to let me resign after 6 months.

However they are not flexible for internship spots because it's almost impossible to replace an intern if one quits unless you can get an OTD, but most of these people go into RMO jobs.

 

[redshifteffect]

Hi redshifeffect, i am not sure about he 10 year moratorium... What does it mean and how does it affect international students?

Also, when can international students apply for PR after graduating from medical school? After completing internship or after being a registrar?

Thanks a million! =)

Shan, do you know the GAMSAT cut offs of internationals vs. locals? Also how many applicants vs. spots for each?

Adrianus,
There are plenty of threads on the 10 year moratorium. Essentially it means you are unable to obtain a provider number (work privately) for 10 years after you get your PR. This means you will have to work in a public hospital (less work but less pay) or you will to work in an Area of Need (these can be in outer parts of the cities, but also rural and regional areas).

You apply for your PR after your intern year.

 

[nwhilk]

You apply for your PR after your intern year.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why can't you apply for your PR before your intern year?

 

[redshifteffect]

There are a few professions in Australia where this is the case:

Medicine, Pharmacy are two that come to mind. The reason is because in Australia technically you are not fully qualified as a doctor until your internship is complete. Thus the immigration department requires this before you can use your medical degree to grant you a PR.

If you intend to apply using another profession/degree you do not need to complete your Internship, only wait two years.

 

[lyndal]

lol @ daemos

so just a follow up on the age question. what is the age profile of the classes in UQ, Sydney and Wollongong let's say? are there official numbers published on the university websites? I don't remember finding anything like that. Because if I get accepted into an Australian program i will be 25 and done a Master's degree.. I DEFINITELY don't want to hang around with 18-year-olds. I sure hope the majority will be 21+.

Hey Thinker and Daemos - our average age varies slightly between cohorts but is 25-27 years old. Our youngest student was 19 at interview (and a graduate !!) and our oldest 51. The majority of our students are 23-35 with outliers at both ends.

So you guys are decidedly average LOL

And just another point about PR. If you are considering applying for PR while at medical school (using your previous degree profession for example) be very careful. If you successfully become an Australian PR you are then automatically only eligible for a domestic place, you must forfeit your international place. Sounds great? Only if there are domestic places available and the school allows this kind of transfer between place types - you could forfeit your place at medical school altogether. It is an option for some people but make sure you do all your homework with the school first and dont plan on it happening.

Lyndal

 

[redshifteffect]

Interesting article in the MJA:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_06_190307/joy11334_fm.html

 

[Daemos]

Interesting article in the MJA:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_06_190307/joy11334_fm.html

That's a pretty large difference!

Is Australia really prepared for the internship spots that they need to open?

 

[redshifteffect]

That's a pretty large difference!

Is Australia really prepared for the internship spots that they need to open?

I don't think anyone will be able to guarantee this 100%. All we can say for certain are that there are mechanisms in place to deal with the large influx, and they've already come out with a few new things.

I took a look at a presentation that was given to the Gold Coast RMOs about how they will be ranking the final year students against each other. It's all about references, CV etc. It looks more like how they select a registrar. So they know it's going to get more competitive.

If you look at the article it seems SA is going to be the safest state. I have a feeling Tasmania will be pretty unaffected as well. However Queensland is probably the worst place to be as they are literally going to have double the number of graduates by 2011.

 

[Jeesan]

Hello everyone,

I am new here and this seems to be a very resourceful place . Hope I get to know all the nice people around.

Okay, so I came accross SDN searching for information about this 'medical student tsunami' that's supposed to hit Australia. This explains why my first post is in this thread; I'm sorry if anyone feels bothered that I revived a discussion that ended 8 months ago. But I had a few questions regarding this matter and I hope someone is kind enough to give me the answers cause I need them to make an important decision.

Here's my situation:

I am a citizen of Bangladesh (a tiny country country between India & Myanmar in South Asia). I was accepted into the medicine program at the University of New South Wales for the 2009 intake but I was unable to commence cause I was refused a student visa (for some reasons that I don't get!). I deferred my offer to 2010 but as a back-up plan I applied to a few places in my country beforehand and not wanting to lose a year I got into a med school here. The medical curriculum here is upto standard and its pretty hard to get through the exams, but I am just not completely satisfied with the teaching methods - its heavily lecture-based and there's only a little scope for research (its the same curriculum throughout the country). And when I compare it with the curriculum at UNSW (which I hear is one of the top med faculties in Aus), I definitely prefer the latter.

On top of that, politics plays some role in my country's government medical sector so I'd like to do my postgraduate training abroad, most preferably in US, Aus or UK.

So I'm interested in applying for the visa again this year and going to med school in Australia. But reading about this medical student tsunami everywhere makes me very scared . The investment my family is going to make for my medical degree in Aus is h-u-g-e (almost worth my dad's whole life's savings), especially compared to what they'd be spending if I completed it here (more than 10 times greater). So if I have to come back to my country for internship & postgrad training after spending such a huge amount & losing a year, just because I had satisfaction issues with the med curriculum here, will be totally devastating.

Some doctors I know here are saying it'd be better if I gradauted here and then just sat the USMLE and went to the US for residency or complete the AMC exam and go to Aus for PG training at RACP. But I've heard that IMGs are not able to land well-reputed/competitive residencies in the US, and incase of Aus they first have to work in remote areas. Is this true? The thing is that I've almost always been in the top of merit lists at school, achieved very high scores at high school and received national merit awards (and by God's grace I'm continuing to do well at med school), so I don't like the idea of having to work/train somewhere that's not on the front rows. I know this sounds really really stupid and narcissistic, please don't form opinions about me from this statement, I totally realise and understand that shining in medical career is far from shining at studies, I just don't know how to exactly express my feelings at the moment.

I'm totally confused as to what I should do . Since I have a good offer from an aussie med school and I want to do my postgraduate training in Aus or US anyway, should I just -
Go to Aus for my med degree and cross my fingers on getting an intership & specialty training position, OR complete my med degree here, save a whole lot of money (& relieve my dad from an enormous burden) and then write the USMLE & AMC and obtain high scores and pray that I get into a competitive residency/specialty?

I'm sorry again for such a long post, I hope I'm not exceeding any forum limit/rule. Any advice, information whatsoever that you deem to be of my benefit will be highly appreciated.

If you've read the whole of this long post, I appreciate you even more for having the patience to go through my blabberings, lol.

Thank you in advance for any help.

 

[shan564]

Sorry to hear about the visa issue. I was a Pakistani citizen until about a year ago... we have the same problem with visa. It's really hard to get a visa to go anywhere if you come from a non-oil-rich Muslim country - even Kuwait was very reluctant me a visa, despite the fact that they're also a Muslim country and my dad was living there at the time (in addition to my mom's brother and her sister).

Anyway - by the time you graduate, the AMC will be almost a closed door. There will be very few (if any) internships available for international grads in Australia.

As far as the prospects for getting an internship if you go to med school in Australia - unfortunately, nobody can really answer that question for you. However, we have discussed several backdoor ways to get a postgrad position in Australia if you do go to med school in Australia:

1. Do your internship in another recognized country after med school (Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand) and then go back to Australia.

2. Do your internship in an unrecognized country after med school (Pakistan, Bangladesh, India) and then apply for that internship to be recognized. The application will probably be granted, but you might have to do an extra year or so of internship.

3. Take the USMLE and go to the US. You're still an international grad, but Australia doesn't have as much of a stigma as Bangladesh does.

4. Take the USMLE and do your internship in the US, then go back to Australia for postgrad training. Australia typically doesn't give you much trouble if you ask them to recognize American training, but the converse is not as true.

5. Try to get PR while you're in Australia. There are several ways to do this - you can do an MPH and apply for PR as a medical administrator, you can marry somebody while you're here (you'll be here for 6 years - there's a realistic chance that you'll meet somebody), you can work in research for a year after med school and use that experience to get PR, or you can work part-time for a couple of years during med school. Then you'll be able to get an internship.


Of course, you still have the option to stay in Bangladesh and take the USMLE after you finish. You can still get into the competitive specialties in the US, but you might just have to take a slightly longer route (i.e. do some clinical clerkships/observerships, spend some time doing research, maybe doing a transitional year, etc). I'm not particularly sure about Bangladesh, but I know that there's a university in Pakistan and several in India that have strong links with American residency programs, and most of their graduates end up going to the US.

 

[Jeesan]

Thanks a bunch shan564, that totally helps. I really appreciate it.

Finally I found someone who understands how hard it can be to get just a simple student visa. Its very frustrating.

Actually my biggest problem is the huge cost of the course. Its the biggest investment, I think almost 75% of his whole life's savings, my dad is going to ever make and its kind of an emotional thing for me to be such a burden on my family. So I'm really concerned whether its worth spending all that amount of money if I can reach the same position by getting my medical degree from here at a much lower expense & by doing a little extra work. But on the other hand, as you pointed out already, I'll carry a stigma as a graduate from a second-world country and that may hinder me from getting a good trainee position. If that's the case, I'd much rather spend a fortune and do my MBBS from Aus.

So shan, I need your opinion again please - do you think its too risky to complete my graduation here if ultimately I do want to go to Aus/US for a training in a competitive specialty? Would getting a high score in the USMLE/AMC help remove the stigma?

If I come to Aus after I graduate, I think I'll do my internship here and then apply for it to be recognised as you mentioned. If I go to US, I'll just take a year to get some US clinical/research experience. The extra one year, that I might also have to spend doing another internship if I go to Aus as you said, wouldn't make much difference for me cause I'm at the end of my 1st year here and the course is 5 years so I'll hopefully graduate in 2013 here whereas if I go to Aus next year, where my course would be 6 years, I'll gradute in 2015.

And I don't think there aren't any medical universities in Bangladesh that have any kind of link with American residency programs and I know only 3 docs who've gone to the US for residency. All are/were in internal medicine, but I heard the programs were one of the less competitive ones (the one I knew directly went to Coney Island Hospital) and that makes me scared! I'm not sure of anything though.

Thank you once again for all the help. And if you don't mind me asking, can you tell me how you obtained Australian PR?

So shan since you're from Pakistan, I think I could call you shan bhai