Mediocre rec letter vs fantastic but risky rec letter

[seals44]

My school's committee requires 5 rec letters: 2 from science profs, 1 from research, 2 from leadership/volunteering/etc.

I am a humanities major with a solid cGPA (>3.75) but weak sGPA (~3.6 but with some filler classes - I got B's in ~1/2 of the prereqs and a C in a prereq). My ECs are probably slightly above average with 300hrs clinical volunteering, 1500 hours of research with 2 national conferences and a first author pub, 100 hrs shadowing, TA for three semesters, etc. As such, sGPA is far and away the weakest portion of my app.

My research letter will be outstanding, both my leadership/volunteering letters should be pretty good, and I will have one decent science letter.

I have two options when it comes to the second science letter.

1). A professor I have known since freshman year who I TA'd for and who asked me to guest lecture for her upper level class twice. Went to toooons of her office hours and know her very well. However, she is known to have "unpredictable" letters. Some of her letters have gotten people into top 10 MSTPs, but apparently she wrote a bunch of one-sentence letters last year for seemingly good people, and I heard she has sometimes included seemingly petty things in letters like someone being late to class a single time. So my letter could potentially be one of my best, but I guess could potentially included negatives that I can't anticipate.

2) A professor whose upper-level class I took. TA'd for him one semester but don't know him as well. He interviews whoever asks for a letter and writes his letter primarily based on that interview, beginning each letter with something like "Because I teach a >100 person lecture, I don't get to know many of my students very well. However, after talking with X,..." He is the chair of his department, but letter sounds like it might be mediocre.

So the question: do I go with safe and mediocre, or much better with a small percent chance of a curveball? Is there really that much of a difference between a mediocre letter and a fantastic letter?

Thanks!

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[lifetothefullest]

Just out of curiousity - do you know what those one-sentence letters said? I feel like that could be either really good or really bad. For instance, John Nash's letter for graduate school was a one-liner that read: "This man is a genius."

 

[seals44]

Unfortunately I do not, but the impression I received was that they were not good. Regardless, I feel like, barring that exact wording or not coming from a person who is renowned in their field, this would be a red flag.

 

[taffer]

The way you described the first professor makes it sound like you have a good relationship with her. Do you have reason to believe she would write anything bad about you? If you are very worried about it, I would just straight up ask her if she would feel comfortable supporting you in your endeavor or if you should look for help elsewhere.

 

[seals44]

The way you described the first professor makes it sound like you have a good relationship with her. Do you have reason to believe she would write anything bad about you? If you are very worried about it, I would just straight up ask her if she would feel comfortable supporting you in your endeavor or if you should look for help elsewhere.

I do have a great relationship with her. When it comes to bad things, college led to a HUGE increase in my social development so I might have been socially awkward around her freshman year (nothing crazy bad though, just really nervous around her, quiet around others, etc), and I do recall one time I turned in test questions to her late as a TA (but she had about 10 other TAs writing them too). She definitely plays favorites, and objectively I wouldn't put myself at the top of her favorites (people who've got in top MSTPs). However, she did ask me to guest lecture for her which she didn't for anyone else, has said she's proud of me in emails, etc.

I got this information about the bad letters round-about from an advisor, but it sounded like everyone who got one had asked her that very question and she still agreed. Apparently her letters always used to be good, but took a sharp decline in quality this past cycle for some unknown reason. My pre-med advisor advised against using her letter.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

3 out of 5 times LORs have little impact on a applicant. 1/5 they are great and 1/5 they are killers. And you are more have a larger negative impact from a bad letter than your would a positive impact from a good letter. Since you will getting a committee letter I would stick with the safer in blander writer.

?! I am highly skeptical of your comment that "3/5 times LOR's have little impact"

Advisors, med students, and deans have routinely told me LORs play a significant role in the process. For more info, you can look at the LOR portion of my signature.

 

[senzen]

I always prefer to play on the safe side so I would pick the 2nd option.

I think it's cause the vast majority of letters are average. @TexasSurgeon

 

[TexasSurgeon]

My perception from dealing with adcoms in both MD and DO schools for over a decade now, generalize the process in decreasing orders of magnitudes

GPA/MCAT : highest order of magnitude
Application PS/Interview: down 1 order
LOR/EC : down 2 orders

The reason I say that is most letters are supportive and good. On occasion you get 1 letter that really stands out. But a negative or one that is written with much said (or rather left out) between the lines raises red flags.

This also goes with the general idea that medical schools admissions is generally a negative process. With the amount of applicants, each schools needs to weed out much and thus a negative will hurt you much more than a positive will help.

I always prefer to play on the safe side so I would pick the 2nd option.

I think it's cause the vast majority of letters are average. @TexasSurgeon

Ohh you are saying negative in terms of the "cutting applicants" part. That makes sense.

 

[einsteinm]

I was in a very similar situation. I ended up playing it safe and not asking that professor who I thought would be risky. It's not worth it with your other letters. You don't want that one letter (one sentence) to hold you back. Let the other letters and parts of your application speak for you.

 

[wegotthis14]

Why don't you ask her straight up "can you write me a STRONG letter of rec?" If she hesitates, choose the other professor. Honestly I'd choose the second one by default anyways- it sounds like your other letters are decent, which is what you need.

 

[hoihaie]

Can't you just get both and have your pre med advisor look over them for you to see which one is better?

 

[senzen]

I don't think many schools are willing to do that. But I do appreciate the ones that do! @hoihaie

 

[ridethecliche]

Many do it. I was going to suggest the same.

 

[Goro]

Knowing how a single bad LOR can kill one's chances, best to play it safe.

My school's committee requires 5 rec letters: 2 from science profs, 1 from research, 2 from leadership/volunteering/etc.

I am a humanities major with a solid cGPA (>3.75) but weak sGPA (~3.6 but with some filler classes - I got B's in ~1/2 of the prereqs and a C in a prereq). My ECs are probably slightly above average with 300hrs clinical volunteering, 1500 hours of research with 2 national conferences and a first author pub, 100 hrs shadowing, TA for three semesters, etc. As such, sGPA is far and away the weakest portion of my app.

My research letter will be outstanding, both my leadership/volunteering letters should be pretty good, and I will have one decent science letter.

I have two options when it comes to the second science letter.

1). A professor I have known since freshman year who I TA'd for and who asked me to guest lecture for her upper level class twice. Went to toooons of her office hours and know her very well. However, she is known to have "unpredictable" letters. Some of her letters have gotten people into top 10 MSTPs, but apparently she wrote a bunch of one-sentence letters last year for seemingly good people, and I heard she has sometimes included seemingly petty things in letters like someone being late to class a single time. So my letter could potentially be one of my best, but I guess could potentially included negatives that I can't anticipate.

2) A professor whose upper-level class I took. TA'd for him one semester but don't know him as well. He interviews whoever asks for a letter and writes his letter primarily based on that interview, beginning each letter with something like "Because I teach a >100 person lecture, I don't get to know many of my students very well. However, after talking with X,..." He is the chair of his department, but letter sounds like it might be mediocre.

So the question: do I go with safe and mediocre, or much better with a small percent chance of a curveball? Is there really that much of a difference between a mediocre letter and a fantastic letter?

Thanks!

 

[sephora89]

Knowing how a single bad LOR can kill one's chances, best to play it safe.

What? What is an example of a bad LOR? How is that even possible? I don't mean to sound oblivious but I always had this notion that letters of recommendation are only used to support a candidate. Not harm them.

 

[NickNaylor]

Neither option sounds like a particularly great idea.

 

[Goro]

Welcome to the world of Adcoms.

I see a bad LOR at the rate of 1/year, so they are NOT common. Most potential LOR writers will indeed beg off if they feel they can't write a good LOR. But, sometimes, people are just plain honest...maybe too honest.

Bad LORs usually point out things like the applicant is not a team player, or was less than diligent in responsibilities.

Now, if you still don't believe me, go read the thread by flowerpower123, who was torpedoed by a bad LOR this cycle, despite having a 4.0 GPA and a super high MCAT.

What? What is an example of a bad LOR? How is that even possible? I don't mean to sound oblivious but I always had this notion that letters of recommendation are only used to support a candidate. Not harm them.

The British call this "damnation by faint praise."
I would also point out that most letters of recommendation are so dazzlingly positive (best student I've ever worked with, blah blah blah), that a lukewarm recommendation stands out a lot. You can read between the lines when you have an unenthusiastic letter writer. Oftentimes if you're talking about feeder schools or committee letters, the adcoms will have seen many many letters from the same author, so it is easy to compare them directly and see the strength of the recommendation.

 

[gyngyn]

What? What is an example of a bad LOR? How is that even possible? I don't mean to sound oblivious but I always had this notion that letters of recommendation are only used to support a candidate. Not harm them.

These are actually intended to be Letters of Evaluation (evaluating strengths and weaknesses).
If they are always uniformly positive, they have little value (like shadowing letters).

 

[gyngyn]

At the residency level a number of fields have tried to address this by introducing standardized letters of recommendation (i.e. templated).

Unfortunately from the research on this, it seems like over time these SLORs have creeped back into Lake Wobegon territory.

I've noticed.

 

[IlDestriero]

?! I am highly skeptical of your comment that "3/5 times LOR's have little impact"

Advisors, med students, and deans have routinely told me LORs play a significant role in the process. For more info, you can look at the LOR portion of my signature.

Most letters of recommendation, for candidates that would have gotten an interview, say pretty much the same thing. What you would consider a "good" letter is often completely average and not really impactful. I used to be involved in our fellowship selection and saw many.
The impactful LORs say something like, "I've been a professor of xxx at Harvard University School of Medicine for over 25 years ... ... and have had the chance to mentor hundreds of students at the medical school and in my research lab where we are studying ... ... I have worked with Mr. X for the last 2 years where... ... Zzz ... Zzz ... He is exceptionally intelligent and talented, ... ... <Wait what? Better read this...> and is in the top 5% of students that I have had the good fortune to have mentored. ... ...
I enthusiastically recommend him for a position in your Medical School class of 20xx without reservation and would be thrilled for him to stay here with us at Harvard. He has the potential to be an outstanding clinician and scientist, and I expect he will make a significant impact in his chosen field. ...
...
Zzz
...

<< Rec: Accept !! >>

That's what you really want.
Then you want it again for your residency spot and again for your fellowship. Oh, and one last time for your ultra competitive sweet attending job.

 

[Catalystik]

What? What is an example of a bad LOR?

-Sometimes it is just an innocent slip. Like they wrote something without thinking about how what they wrote would be interpreted.

-Sometimes writers feel they have a professional obligation to give an honest assessment, so they will include things that they felt were concerning.

-Sometimes people suck.

Example: "He tries to keep his tardiness to a minimum."

 

[sephora89]

-Sometimes it is just an innocent slip. Like they wrote something without thinking about how what they wrote would be interpreted.

-Sometimes writers feel they have a professional obligation to give an honest assessment, so they will include things that they felt were concerning.

-Sometimes people suck.

I would also point out that most letters of recommendation are so dazzlingly positive (best student I've ever worked with, blah blah blah), that a lukewarm recommendation stands out a lot. You can read between the lines when you have an unenthusiastic letter writer. Oftentimes if you're talking about feeder schools or committee letters, the adcoms will have seen many many letters from the same author, so it is easy to compare them directly and see the strength of the recommendation.

I feel like if there is information that is potentially sensitive they should confirm whether or not the applicant is okay with that piece of information being mentioned.

If they truly can't write a good recommendation, I feel like they should simply say no to the student.

At most large schools, sometimes a lukewarm letter is the best professors can do.

Welcome to the world of Adcoms.

I see a bad LOR at the rate of 1/year, so they are NOT common. Most potential LOR writers will indeed beg off if they feel they can't write a good LOR. But, sometimes, people are just plain honest...maybe too honest.

Bad LORs usually point out things like the applicant is not a team player, or was less than diligent in responsibilities.

Now, if you still don't believe me, go read the thread by flowerpower123, who was torpedoed by a bad LOR this cycle, despite having a 4.0 GPA and a super high MCAT.

I read the last few pages of the thread. How is that fair at all? The PI seemed to have made a mistake that completely ruined her application. That was NOT her fault. I get that because of FERPA we have the right to view our LORs but it doesn't even seem to matter because everyone knows that not waiving it is viewed as a universally negative thing. As applicants we have responsibility over applications and having to flush thousands down the drain because of a mistake someone made that we can't look over is very, well, just sad. I wish students can at least look over LORs to check for mistakes.

 

[sephora89]

These are actually intended to be Letters of Evaluation (evaluating strengths and weaknesses).
If they are always uniformly positive, they have little value (like shadowing letters).

How can mentioning a weakness ever even be a good thing?

Example: "He tries to keep his tardiness to a minimum."

Mentioning lateness seems extremely petty, no?

 

[gyngyn]

How can mentioning a weakness ever even be a good thing?

If LOR's are uniformly "positive" then there can only be shades of positivity.

 

[sephora89]

In addition to what I said above...

One thing that LORs do do is serve as a litmus test for the judgment of the student seeking the letter. As was outlined above, a bad LOR is a rare thing. Like once a year bad for someone who reviews applications.

So when you do see a bad one, it makes you wonder about the judgment of the student, that they lack the awareness of how they are perceived.

I do certainly think it's important to be honest. However, I think it's ridiculous to mention that a person was late one or two times. I do have positive relationships with people who I am considering asking for a potential LOR but how am I supposed to judge that they're going to mention a petty thing like being tardy a few times?

One should immediately be able to tell from one's body language how the person feels about them but it's kind of hard to tell whether or not they'll mention trivial things because they feel inclined to be honest.

I hope you can see why I have such gripes about LORs right now.

 

[sephora89]

A question regarding the legality of waiving one's right to read LORS: if one is done with the LOR and you mention to them that you did indeed waive your right to read the letter but they insist on showing you anyway, are any rules being broken?

 

[Goro]

If students could do this, then we couldn't be completely honest. LORs should be evaluations, not mere praise.


I wish students can at least look over LORs to check for mistakes.

Goes directly to the heart of responsibility. Do you want your doctor to be late to your surgery? Your baby's delivery?

Mentioning lateness seems extremely petty, no?

 

[gyngyn]

Goes directly to the heart of responsibility. Do you want your doctor to be late to your surgery? Your baby's delivery?
Mentioning lateness seems extremely petty, no?

I completely agree.

 

[sephora89]

So, I think when I approach my LOR writers, I'm going to ask, "Dear Dr. X, do you think you can write me a strong, positive, glowing LOR wholeheartedly, passionately, enthusiastically and most highly recommending me for medical school?"

Hopefully, this eliminates any chance of getting a bad LOR.

 

[IlDestriero]

So, I think when I approach my LOR writers, I'm going to ask, "Dear Dr. X, do you think you can write me a strong, positive, glowing LOR wholeheartedly, passionately, enthusiastically and most highly recommending me for medical school?"

Hopefully, this eliminates any chance of getting a bad LOR.

That costs more.