Minorities in med school

[knud03]

Umm...Alaska Girl,
You really need a reality check here- the U of M TC only let you in because you are an underrepresented minority. Your stats (MCAT 29; BCPM 3.30; overall 3.41) are really not very good, esp. when compared with the U’s averages for incoming students. To say that you worked really hard to get into medical school is just really bull****, given your numbers and the fact that you were accepted as an out of state student to a highly ranked medical school that is famous for minority fishing and then rejecting it’s better qualified in state applicants. The U of M is famous for importing less-than-capable minority students and giving them tuition wavers. The U of M TC does everything short of actually licking your boots clean when you are a minority applicant. Perhaps that is why the U’s reputation is slipping as of late. What a shame that in-state students with high MCAT scores and GPA's are being turned down so that the tax payers of Minnesota can help pay for you to go to medical school.

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[notdeadyet]

Umm...Alaska Girl,

Knud knows nossink...

UM TC's average MCAT is 29.7, Alaska's is 29.
UM TC's average GPA is 3.67, Alaska's is 3.41.

Basically, she's right up there with the average. And keep in mind average is just that. Some people have higher stats, some people have lower. Her ECs and Interviews probably pushed her over the top.

Oh, And UM TC lets in 23.9% of in state applicants compared with 6.5% of out of state. The school body is 79% in-state and it's only 7% URM. I've never heard of this reputation that UM has (and my fiance went to school there), but if they're really all that aggressively pursuing out-of-state URMs, they're doing a REALLy bad job of it.

So you're wrong on all counts, bud. And if you're going to spout racially prejudice and patently untrue garbage, at LEAST have the cojones to do it under your real anonymous login, rather than creating one today so that you can air your sour grapes and slink off into the ether?

Ignore him, Alaska. Someone's been eating the mean-and-bitter pills again...

 

[Will Ferrell]

^^^

Knud...
Ummm... Jerk-off,

Schools in the north west are obliged to take students from states who don't have medical schools (Alaska, Wyoming). Her MCAT score is a point or two lower than their average - so what? Stop trying to discredit people for their achievements, because they def. deserve their success more than you.

 

[The Remix]

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when someone would attack HBCU medschools.

 

[tinkerbelle]

Umm...Alaska Girl,
You really need a reality check here- the U of M TC only let you in because you are an underrepresented minority. Your stats (MCAT 29; BCPM 3.30; overall 3.41) are really not very good, esp. when compared with the U’s averages for incoming students. To say that you worked really hard to get into medical school is just really bull****, given your numbers and the fact that you were accepted as an out of state student to a highly ranked medical school that is famous for minority fishing and then rejecting it’s better qualified in state applicants. The U of M is famous for importing less-than-capable minority students and giving them tuition wavers. The U of M TC does everything short of actually licking your boots clean when you are a minority applicant. Perhaps that is why the U’s reputation is slipping as of late. What a shame that in-state students with high MCAT scores and GPA's are being turned down so that the tax payers of Minnesota can help pay for you to go to medical school.

Didn't your parents ever teach you any manners? I hope Alaska Girl doesn't see your post. Not only is it just plain mean, but it's a bunch of bs as well. Out of all the applicants that apply, UofM must have seen something really special in Alaska Girl or they wouldn't have bothered accepting her. And a 3.4 isn't bad. People with 3.4's work hard too. My God guys. Grow up. If you haven't gotten in to med school, it's not b/c of the few minority applicants that did get in. Non-minorities with less than average stats get into a bunch of schools too.

It's really sad when you have to put someone else's accomplishements down in order to make yourself feel better.

 

[visualwealth]

Disgraceful thread... wow, I hope he gets rejected again next year... A true loser..

 

[amnesia]

This place is like politically correct palace... damn.

*listens to Eminem*

Like damn, we just swapped.

I would say his post has some truth to it... flashback to NPR 4 months ago... something about law and med school accepting lower applicants just to fill the ranks of minorities... really, it was funny ten years ago, but it's not funny before.

Didn't you listen to the President of Harvard's comments? I bet you think he is a loser, too.

 

[winterblows]

All opinions, lets look at some numbers. This is the AAMC's assesment of on the matter, in cold hard fact, table format.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

So put that in your pipe and smoke it

 

[Rzarecta]

Hey Amnesia, I hate to be a jerk (actually I relish it) but shut the hell up until you have taken your damn MCAT, gone through college, and made it out of this hellish process before you grace us all with your "lessons on what society should be."

Sorry to be craS
s, but all of you bitches better grow a pair and buck up (and I mean this is a totally nonsexist way thought it sounds completely horrid). When you lament about how the system has dealt you an unfair hand becase you weren't born Black and thus have to get "higher" numbers, you know that you need to be washed out of the gene pool. Life isn't fair kiddies, so why the hell would this process be? On top of that, do you really understand what it is like to be Black in America? I ain't Black, and I have been called nigg*r more times than I care to remember. If it was this bad for me, I am almost sick of thinking about how it would be for them.

In closing, this type of argument is gunnerism at its poorest. Go be like the other conventional assh*les and rip pages out of textbooks in order to succed. God forbid anything worthwhile would be difficult to obtain.

 

[MedicineBird]

Hey Amnesia, I hate to be a jerk (actually I relish it) but shut the hell up until you have taken your damn MCAT, gone through college, and made it out of this hellish process before you grace us all with your "lessons on what society should be."

You read my mind. No wonder people hate teenagers. It's thanks to know it all little pricks like this. Sounds like it's time for a parent teacher conference.

 

[The Remix]

All opinions, lets look at some numbers. This is the AAMC's assesment of on the matter, in cold hard fact, table format.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

So put that in your pipe and smoke it

... ...waiting for the point of your post...

 

[Scarletbegonias]

All opinions, lets look at some numbers. This is the AAMC's assesment of on the matter, in cold hard fact, table format.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

So put that in your pipe and smoke it

It's just a table, not an assessment. Also, there's not much of a difference between the scores of hispanics and other minorities and whites. It's within the standard deviation for each different category.

 

[samwY]

Every Asian "minority" I know were probably in the top 5% of their classes.

Please explain how they are not deserving of their med school acceptances because they are minorities too.

Or are you just using minority as a word to disguise your prejudices toward black people?

 

[ftbstep]

I'll make an offer to both sides of the argument: make the entire process blind, and for interviews, place the interviewer and interviewee in separate rooms with voice masking Not very idealistic, but it would work!

 

[rugirlie]

Every Asian "minority" I know were probably in the top 5% of their classes.

Please explain how they are not deserving of their med school acceptances because they are minorities too.

Or are you just using minority as a word to disguise your prejudices toward black people?

Not that I agree with anything the poster is saying, but I think he/she is referring to minorities in med school admissions. In that case asian/indian and white people are in the majority. So I assume he/she is referring to the races/ethnicities that are under-represented in medicine. (Not meant to be offensive in any way.)

 

[rugirlie]

This post is really just an argument about affirmative action. Is it fair that people who "appear" less qualified based on numbers (whether this may be so or not) should get a one up in admissions due to quality of life issues? You're either gonna agree with this or not. Why go on in this post about racism and the like? Either you're for AA or you're not, period.

 

[tigress]

This post is really just an argument about affirmative action. Is it fair that people who "appear" less qualified based on numbers (whether this may be so or not) should get a one up in admissions due to quality of life issues? You're either gonna agree with this or not. Why go on in this post about racism and the like? Either you're for AA or you're not, period.

Or else you're confused and don't know whether you're for it or not, like me

 

[rugirlie]

Or else you're confused and don't know whether you're for it or not, like me

Okay, yea good point. I neglected to realize there are people who don't have an opinion or are unsure about their thoughts on AA.

 

[Shredder]

I do not mean to sound racist. However, I think racism is a huge issue in medicine at the present moment. Schools like Meharry, Morehouse and Howard are averaging flat 3.0 GPAs. I dont even want to know their average MCAT scores are. Minorities are 78% at these schools. For the most part, these schools only accept minorities. Is this fair? I do not think it is. Since when did being a physician be about race or ethnicity. I always thought it was about being a capable individual. I do not mean to discredit these schools. However, I believe that they turn several applicants away each year that are more deserving than the 3.0 minorities that they prefer. This sounds illegal to me. Can someone please explain this to me? If I have offended anyone then I appologize. Replies are greatly appreciated.

Yours,
Caraway

Answer: The NAACP has a lot of political clout. The whole situation is ridiculous. Maybe if lots of people like us actually banded together to pressure the people in power and vote, things might change. Such is the power of the ballot, but only if it is exploited. I'm not sure if degrees from schools like these are seen as equivalent to normal schools, but if they are that is absurd. Regardless of ethnic origin, I don't want people with those qualifications treating me. I'm not even going to sugar coat anything.

I'll make an offer to both sides of the argument: make the entire process blind, and for interviews, place the interviewer and interviewee in separate rooms with voice masking Not very idealistic, but it would work!

I love it

 

[AlaskaGirl]

Umm...Alaska Girl,
You really need a reality check here- the U of M TC only let you in because you are an underrepresented minority. Your stats (MCAT 29; BCPM 3.30; overall 3.41) are really not very good, esp. when compared with the U’s averages for incoming students. To say that you worked really hard to get into medical school is just really bull****, given your numbers and the fact that you were accepted as an out of state student to a highly ranked medical school that is famous for minority fishing and then rejecting it’s better qualified in state applicants. The U of M is famous for importing less-than-capable minority students and giving them tuition wavers. The U of M TC does everything short of actually licking your boots clean when you are a minority applicant. Perhaps that is why the U’s reputation is slipping as of late. What a shame that in-state students with high MCAT scores and GPA's are being turned down so that the tax payers of Minnesota can help pay for you to go to medical school.

I am sorry that you feel that way, but there is really nothing that I might be able to do to change your mind, so I won't even bother trying. Yes, my stats may not be "through the roof" like other candidates that are out there, but I feel my life experiences and ECs more than made up for my average scores in college. You are the type of physician-candidate that I abhor. You look at a basic profile of me and use that to write me off as unqualified for admission to the U is complete bullsh*t in my eyes. If you know so much about the U of M then you should know that they have an emphasis at turning out primary care and physicians interested in rural medicine, which is the area I have chosen to specialize in. After obtaining acceptances to both the U of M and UMD (which ONLY accepts those interested in rural medicine/primary care) I chose the UMN-TC because I already live here and don't want to relocate. So, yes, I believe I had a little more than numbers to add to my application....get over yourself...even if you had stellar numbers and a great personality I still think you would make a crappy doctor, because you have no tact and feel that attacking me is your only option to prove yourself on this forum.

 

[MedicineBird]

I am sorry that you feel that way, but there is really nothing that I might be able to do to change your mind, so I won't even bother trying. Yes, my stats may not be "through the roof" like other candidates that are out there, but I feel my life experiences and ECs more than made up for my average scores in college. You are the type of physician-candidate that I abhor. You look at a basic profile of me and use that to write me off as unqualified for admission to the U is complete bullsh*t in my eyes. If you know so much about the U of M then you should know that they have an emphasis at turning out primary care and physicians interested in rural medicine, which is the area I have chosen to specialize in. After obtaining acceptances to both the U of M and UMD (which ONLY accepts those interested in rural medicine/primary care) I chose the UMN-TC because I already live here and don't want to relocate. So, yes, I believe I had a little more than numbers to add to my application....get over yourself...even if you had stellar numbers and a great personality I still think you would make a crappy doctor, because you have no tact and feel that attacking me is your only option to prove yourself on this forum.

amen AlaskaGirl!!!

 

[willthatsall]

Here's my take on it: Being a URM helps people get into med school, but it doesn't do it alone. It is something that is valued by med schools and they show some preference for diversity. It helps an application much in the same way that holding a leadership position or playing a varsity sport helps; it makes it more likely that a minority will be accepted, all things being equal. Now, you can say that it isn't fair, because those other things require work and dedication and being born a minority was just luck. But does it really matter? If that's what med schools prefer, then it isn't worth bickering about; both URM's and whites/asians know the rules of the game before they start. So if you are not a URM you have known all along you need to have very competitive stats, it's not like you just find out the day you decide to apply. On the other hand, I think that some URM's don't like to accept that being a URM helped them get in at all. I don't see the shame in it, though. URM's have something med schools want and the schools take that into account during admissions. Seriously, would anyone really want 95%+ of med students and doctors to be white/asian? How depressing...

 

[Nunca]

I do not mean to sound racist. However, I think racism is a huge issue in medicine at the present moment. Schools like Meharry, Morehouse and Howard are averaging flat 3.0 GPAs. I dont even want to know their average MCAT scores are. Minorities are 78% at these schools. For the most part, these schools only accept minorities. Is this fair? I do not think it is. Since when did being a physician be about race or ethnicity. I always thought it was about being a capable individual. I do not mean to discredit these schools. However, I believe that they turn several applicants away each year that are more deserving than the 3.0 minorities that they prefer. This sounds illegal to me. Can someone please explain this to me? If I have offended anyone then I appologize. Replies are greatly appreciated.

Yours,
Caraway

You wouldn't even practice medicine in some of the places these people come from.

I hate it when idiots try and start some little race riot but act as if they are so tolerant and understanding.

You people get on here and talk about "Oh my, I would never want to be treated by a black doctor who got a 30 on his MCAT" well guess what, as a black man, I for damn sure would not want to be treated by a racist white doctor with a 40 MCAT.

I'll stick with my brothers and sisters who had 3.3/gpa 30/mcat undergrads who graduated from Morehouse or Howard over some of the posters on this site, including you, amnesia, and a whole handful of others. At least then I'll know I'll be getting treated by someone who doesn't have this chip on their shoulder because they were rejected from Harvard 10 years ago when their minority "friend" wasn't.

 

[clc8503]

You wouldn't even practice medicine in some of the places these people come from.

I hate it when idiots try and start some little race riot but act as if they are so tolerant and understanding.

You people get on here and talk about "Oh my, I would never want to be treated by a black doctor who got a 30 on his MCAT" well guess what, as a black man, I for damn sure would not want to be treated by a racist white doctor with a 40 MCAT.

I'll stick with my brothers and sisters who had 3.3/gpa 30/mcat undergrads who graduated from Morehouse or Howard over some of the posters on this site, including you, amnesia, and a whole handful of others. At least then I'll know I'll be getting treated by someone who doesn't have this chip on their shoulder because they were rejected from Harvard 10 years ago when their minority "friend" wasn't.

Good, I'm glad you see things that way! I hope you go see one of these "so called doctors" for an appendectomy and come out with a sex change. For the record, I do not mind being treated by a African American doctor as long as he/she is well educated. I do not feel as though these schools select the best canidates. If anyone is racist it's you, talking about how your uneducated "brother/sisters" need a break to be accepted into medical schools.

Yours,
Caraway

 

[thebiz98]

This is a really serious issue, one that lies at the core of American sociopolitics. Needless to say, we're not going to resolve anything on an online forum.

In the end a balance must be struck between diversifying the profession (Willthatsall, you're really right) and making amends for the situation of people from economically depressed or opportunity poor regions, and the outright balkanization of our Medical Schools.

What I mean is this: At a time when racial and culturual harmony is consistently rising, poorly implemented AA progams and persistent prejudice are creating a world where everyone is either part of one category and URM's are in another. The problem is that discussions like the one we're having poison our perspectives, creating a pool with "the best applicant," the best black applicant, and too few people believing that one could be the other.

Indignance and entitlement won't change the realities of the process. A rejection means not that you weren't qualified. It means you didn't fit the ADCOM's particular conception of what their matriculating class would look like. This is their perogative. It could be your gain...or mine. Medical Schools, the self-interested SOBs that they are, won't shoot themselves by admitting someone - white or otherwise - that will kill patients. If they are illegitimately passing flunking students, they should be held accountable. But at the point that we assume medical schools, in a fit of that self-interest, won't loose one incompetement boob after the other for fear someone will catch on...we can't complain about their admissions policies.

 

[rugirlie]

Let me just say that I think the OP keeps digging himself deeper and deeper. I am not gonna comment on AA itself even though I think that is the OP's actual complaint despite his trying to camoflague it by saying that minorities who are not qualified get in and become doctors when they shouldn't. I, too, think he is just sore that he is getting passed up for people with lower stats. I do want to comment, however, on the correlation between peformance as a doctor and MCAT and ugrad gpa numbers.

First of all, the MCAT is completely useless in informing upon how good of a doctor one will become. When I was studying for the MCAT in the OR recovery room I was volunteering in, a surgeon came up to me and asked what it was I was doing. It was a simple gen chem problem and he had no clue how to do it. He said he hadn't seen that crap in years since before medical school and didn't remember any of it. What matters is how well you perform on your licensing exams. If you don't pass those, you can't practice, number one and number two, if you pass them and don't do so well, you won't be a doctor in a specialty where you're making life and death decisions so basically, the licensing system takes care of unqualified people, preventing them from becoming doctors or doctors at levels they are not qualified to perform at.

Second of all, someone I know who had an atrocious ugrad gpa (1.7 overall, 2.3 sci) and an MCAT of 21 (yes I'm serious) ended up going to Ross in the carribean. However, he just recently took Step 1 of the USMLE and got a 235 which is amazing! He may not have gotten his **** together in ugrad, but hes certainly proved that he can be a competent doctor and in a competitive specialty to boot. He obviously knows really well the pertinent information necessary to medical practice despite his non-mastery of all the pre-med reqs in ugrad. I would trust him to be my doctor any day over any of these other people that got into good med schools with decent undergrad numbers yet only got a 205 on the USMLE Step 1.

To conclude, basically I think the entire basis of the OP's argument against AA is ludicrous. Having a low MCAT score does not mean you're gonna be a bad doctor while having a great one does not ensure that you'll be a good doctor. (This is all aside from the many arguments that come with people skills and other things that make a good doctor). I'm talking about ugrad numbers not at all determining your mental competence in information that actually matters.. anatomy, histo, path, etc...


Anyone who actually read this to the end.....

 

[docjolly]

Let me just say that I think the OP keeps digging himself deeper and deeper. I am not gonna comment on AA itself even though I think that is the OP's actual complaint despite his trying to camoflague it by saying that minorities who are not qualified get in and become doctors when they shouldn't. I, too, think he is just sore that he is getting passed up for people with lower stats. I do want to comment, however, on the correlation between peformance as a doctor and MCAT and ugrad gpa numbers.

First of all, the MCAT is completely useless in informing upon how good of a doctor one will become. When I was studying for the MCAT in the OR recovery room I was volunteering in, a surgeon came up to me and asked what it was I was doing. It was a simple gen chem problem and he had no clue how to do it. He said he hadn't seen that crap in years since before medical school and didn't remember any of it. What matters is how well you perform on your licensing exams. If you don't pass those, you can't practice, number one and number two, if you pass them and don't do so well, you won't be a doctor in a specialty where you're making life and death decisions so basically, the licensing system takes care of unqualified people, preventing them from becoming doctors or doctors at levels they are not qualified to perform at.

Second of all, someone I know who had an atrocious ugrad gpa (1.7 overall, 2.3 sci) and an MCAT of 21 (yes I'm serious) ended up going to Ross in the carribean. However, he just recently took Step 1 of the USMLE and got a 235 which is amazing! He may not have gotten his **** together in ugrad, but hes certainly proved that he can be a competent doctor and in a competitive specialty to boot. He obviously knows really well the pertinent information necessary to medical practice despite his non-mastery of all the pre-med reqs in ugrad. I would trust him to be my doctor any day over any of these other people that got into good med schools with decent undergrad numbers yet only got a 205 on the USMLE Step 1.

To conclude, basically I think the entire basis of the OP's argument against AA is ludicrous. Having a low MCAT score does not mean you're gonna be a bad doctor while having a great one does not ensure that you'll be a good doctor. (This is all aside from the many arguments that come with people skills and other things that make a good doctor). I'm talking about ugrad numbers not at all determining your mental competence in information that actually matters.. anatomy, histo, path, etc...


Anyone who actually read this to the end.....

rugirlie,

Excellent post

 

[thebiz98]

Rugirlie - I agree, you made a great post. And the reasons you underline are strong ones informing us that the characteristics which make good doctors cannot be necessarily identified by MCAT scores.

But I think you can agree that at some level they serve as a very usefull proxy. That is, it is very efficient to sort through applications on the basis of one standard. And without a standard like the MCAT, selecting students would become an arguous, brutal timesink requiring resources no medical school could muster (time, money, staff).

The MCAT, even its G-Chem and Kinematics and lame VR passages, is a proxy for mental dexterity, studiousness, intuition, logical reasoning and capacity to memorize details. It would be very difficult to quantify these variables otherwise. Luckily we have GPA.

Now your friend that made up for lost time at Ross has a great story. But a Medical school has scarce resources, right? Ultimately, they have to make efficient use of those resources and go with the law of probability. Most students with 1.7 GPAs don't deserve faithful assumptions about their potential. But that's why we have interviews and EC sketches...

you see, the system has safeguards. But the system would fall apart without hard numbers to justify, explain, prove, etc. There has to be a way to sort and eliminate candidates cheaply.

Extreme cases don't prove the inviability of the system as it exists - but they illustrate the limits of its efficacy. No system is perfect, of course. This one is just a really good alternative.

 

[rugirlie]

Rugirlie - I agree, you made a great post. And the reasons you underline are strong ones informing us that the characteristics which make good doctors cannot be necessarily identified by MCAT scores.

But I think you can agree that at some level they serve as a very usefull proxy. That is, it is very efficient to sort through applications on the basis of one standard. And without a standard like the MCAT, selecting students would become an arguous, brutal timesink requiring resources no medical school could muster (time, money, staff).

The MCAT, even its G-Chem and Kinematics and lame VR passages, is a proxy for mental dexterity, studiousness, intuition, logical reasoning and capacity to memorize details. It would be very difficult to quantify these variables otherwise. Luckily we have GPA.

Now your friend that made up for lost time at Ross has a great story. But a Medical school has scarce resources, right? Ultimately, they have to make efficient use of those resources and go with the law of probability. Most students with 1.7 GPAs don't deserve faithful assumptions about their potential. But that's why we have interviews and EC sketches...

you see, the system has safeguards. But the system would fall apart without hard numbers to justify, explain, prove, etc. There has to be a way to sort and eliminate candidates cheaply.

Extreme cases don't prove the inviability of the system as it exists - but they illustrate the limits of its efficacy. No system is perfect, of course. This one is just a really good alternative.

Oh yes, I totally agree. That is why I wrote in the beginning of my post (but perhaps I wasn't clear enough) that I was not commenting on the use of MCAT and gpa in admissions as an indicator of what kind of doctor you would be. I agree that they are necessary to distinguish between the massive amount of applicants. I was merely talking about the actual meaning of MCAT and gpa in indicating what kind of doctor you would make. I have my own opinions about AA, but I would rather not bring them up because people obviously get very upset in general when you discuss a controversial topic like this. In short, I completely agree with the necessity of numbers for assumption of who would be potentially good doctors (in med admissions) whether or not this actually correlates, which I tried to say does not!