Mother, Nurse, Midwife, Living Abroad- what are my chances?

[OiMama]

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[DrMidlife]

Of course you can be an MD or DO.

The #1 problem for you with online coursework isn't stigma, it's letters. You need science faculty to vouch for you. Stigma is also a problem, and online coursework is just not accepted at some med schools. If your MCAT ends up average, then the value of an online GPA degrades further.

Presumably you have clinical experience in the US?

What's your family's timeline for returning to the US? Is the plan to leave them in Latin America while you're in med school and residency (total 8 yrs)? Would you be doing international travel for med school interviews?

My suggestion is to take SOME online coursework, to get yourself going, but then do a hefty pile of coursework in the US before you apply. As above, if there isn't a planned return to the US for your family, I don't get how this works, unless you train under your host country's system.

You can find summer or 1-2 month opportunities in the US to beef up your US clinical/academic bona fides.

Best of luck to you.

 

[OiMama]

Hello DrMidlife,

Thank you for your reply! I suppose I did leave aspects of my post vague.

I was an ER nurse at a level one trauma center for more more than five years before moving to Brazil so yes do have clinical experience in the US. I also worked in Guatemala and Zambia too for shorter stints.

Ideally, the husband and kids would like to move when/if I am accepted. I will have to apply to a broad range of schools all over the country and international moves are expensive. Its difficult to imagine moving back for one year to complete the four courses I need (org chem and physics) then wait the year or more until possible acceptance which would likely be another move within the US. Whereas if I took the courses online then I would travel back for interviews and make a definite move if an acceptance comes in to whichever medical school/city I get accepted.

Can the letters be from physicians I have worked with in the past? Or faculty from my midwifery program here? I have maintained good contacts there and am also travel back this summer for a few weeks and cont ed credits.

Does the online stuff just get discredited right off the bat or do they look at the whole person and see the reasons for online study?

Thanks!

 

[DrMidlife]

Your US experience and your non-US experience need to go into different piles. US exp directly relates to US training. Intl exp is considered an "EC" (albeit a high octane EC if you did paid work as an adult vs the usual premed voluntourism). EC = extra curricular.

Fun fact #1: you'll be judged by the same standard as the kiddoes who've never paid their own rent and want respect for being president of their college premed club. Point being, understand the traditional standard of admissions for traditional students, and live up to that standard. Your life experience and unique characteristics don't mean squat until you're past the academic screen, which has much more momentum in the direction of rejection, and then you depend on reviewer eyeballs having some patience left for your app when they get to it in the big fat pile.

I get it, you REALLY want to get things done online. You REALLY don't want to come back to the US until you absolutely have to.

Fun fact #2: last year about 50,000 people applied MD, and about 20,000 got in. Most of the 140+ US MD schools get more than 5000 apps, sometimes 15,000, for around 150 seats. This is a high rejection game, with a very well qualified horde of applicants. As you're looking at possible timelines, you need to balance the desire to get through the process quickly with the very real risk of not getting accepted the first time, or the second time, with no refunds for the years and money invested in trying. It's essential, in my opinion, to apply once and only once with the very best most compelling app you can possibly produce.

Recommendation letters for med school, mostly, are expected to come from science faculty who taught you the prereqs, or higher level science, and who got to know you over time. One letter is usually expected to be from a non-science professor, such as humanities etc. Some people will include one letter from an employer or other character reference, in lieu of a non-science letter. Unfortunately nursing and midwifery faculty would be considered non-science, most likely. You also are expected to have at least one recent letter. Total of 3-4 letters. More is bad: they don't want more to read, and won't.

Fun fact #3: med school costs about $250,000, sometimes closer to $400,000. Those who have an established domicile in a very small number of states, such as Texas, and who can get accepted at their state's public school(s), can still get in under $200k. Federal loans cover all this, and for example with $250k loans, by the time you're out of residency that runs up over $400k. And then there are various repayment plans for federal loans that cap monthly payments and forgive the balance after 10-20 years. Point being, you can't assume the lifestyle or retirement savings that physicians of an older generation could. Yes, plenty of docs make plenty of money, but this unbelievable increase in the cost of attendance is a big fat problem. For everybody. Doubly so for those starting later who lose a decade of income to training.

More if I get another break between deliveries on the L&D night shift.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Online courses are not smiled upon. Some schools will not accept a online degree either. If your not willing to move back here now, and take classes on the ground then I think you will be DOA most places applying as a foriegn residnent(even as an expat). Your level 1 trauma experience doesnt mean near as much in your app as it does for a nursing job. Its looked at as slightly better than scribing IMO.

I am a nurse who has sucessfully been accepted. I am not trying to be mean as other nurses trying to do medicine definately have a special place in my heart, but you need to assess your dedication level to this. If your not willing to move back take 2 years of prereqs just to try and get in, then you probably won't get in. Listen to dr. Midlife she is knowledgable as well.

 

[OiMama]

Geez. Ok. Definitely a reality check.

Would taking the courses online and then doing summer intensives just for labs be better idea?

 

[DrMidlife]

Would taking the courses online and then doing summer intensives just for labs be better idea?

Maybe. I'm a hippie socialist tax-and-spend single-payer free-love rainbow-flag liberal in almost every way. But I'm a stodgy tight-lipped disapproving conservative when it comes to med school admissions, because in my own premed career I didn't respect the process, didn't respect my competition, and I paid a huge painful price in time and money and loss of practice years. Thus my admissions advice is all about risk aversion and fear and pre-emptive intervention.

You'd want to take an upper div science class such as biochem along with those labs so that you have at least one classroom asset on US soil. Labs frequently are taught by TAs who may or may not have the influence on a faculty member who will vouch for their appraisal of you. Summer intensives frequently are taught by adjunct lecturers who don't get access to school letterhead.

Scenario A:
- you get A's online, A's in your summer intensives that give you letters, and then you get a crazy high score on the MCAT
- result: no real concern about your academic capabilities when your app gets looked at, that MCAT validates those A's and counters any doubt about rigor in your nursing degree

Scenario B:
- you get A's online, A's in your summer intensives that give you letters, and then you don't do so great on the MCAT
- result: "Hmm, that MCAT's not so good, let's see, this is a nurse, took online coursework. I've worked with amazing nurses who could TOTALLY be doctors, and persecution-complex nurses who think doctors are idiots. This looks like the latter. Next!"

There are many other scenarios, including those where your MCAT is great but you still get rejected for all kinds of other reasons. Point being, the premed plan you pick isn't validated until after it's over.

Also, before you dive in, you absolutely need to plan for:
1. An MCAT exam date that gives you a score before AMCAS opens, usually June 1. That means you're taking the MCAT in April or May. Not August.
2. An early, broad app. Deadlines don't matter: it's strategic to be first in line. Applying to 50 schools is normal these days.
3. You need a provable US domicile address, so that you're not confused with an international applicant, and so that you have a chance at some public schools.

Note: online coursework is no more popular with DO schools, but you should find out what a DO is sooner rather than later. The Gevitz book is good.

Best of luck to you.

 

[jl lin]

Maybe. I'm a hippie socialist tax-and-spend single-payer free-love rainbow-flag liberal in almost every way. But I'm a stodgy tight-lipped disapproving conservative when it comes to med school admissions, because in my own premed career I didn't respect the process, didn't respect my competition, and I paid a huge painful price in time and money and loss of practice years. Thus my admissions advice is all about risk aversion and fear and pre-emptive intervention.

You'd want to take an upper div science class such as biochem along with those labs so that you have at least one classroom asset on US soil. Labs frequently are taught by TAs who may or may not have the influence on a faculty member who will vouch for their appraisal of you. Summer intensives frequently are taught by adjunct lecturers who don't get access to school letterhead.

Scenario A:
- you get A's online, A's in your summer intensives that give you letters, and then you get a crazy high score on the MCAT
- result: no real concern about your academic capabilities when your app gets looked at, that MCAT validates those A's and counters any doubt about rigor in your nursing degree

Scenario B:
- you get A's online, A's in your summer intensives that give you letters, and then you don't do so great on the MCAT
- result: "Hmm, that MCAT's not so good, let's see, this is a nurse, took online coursework. I've worked with amazing nurses who could TOTALLY be doctors, and persecution-complex nurses who think doctors are idiots. This looks like the latter. Next!"

There are many other scenarios, including those where your MCAT is great but you still get rejected for all kinds of other reasons. Point being, the premed plan you pick isn't validated until after it's over.

Also, before you dive in, you absolutely need to plan for:
1. An MCAT exam date that gives you a score before AMCAS opens, usually June 1. That means you're taking the MCAT in April or May. Not August.
2. An early, broad app. Deadlines don't matter: it's strategic to be first in line. Applying to 50 schools is normal these days.
3. You need a provable US domicile address, so that you're not confused with an international applicant, and so that you have a chance at some public schools.

Note: online coursework is no more popular with DO schools, but you should find out what a DO is sooner rather than later. The Gevitz book is good.

Best of luck to you.

Seriously. I would give a lot of weight to the above advice.

As a side note, I'm a bit taken aback by this: "Applying to 50 schools is normal these days." I was under the impression by many on here and elsewhere that 30 is the top number. 50 apps is a nice chunk of change. Holy crap!

 

[OiMama]

Very helpful information.

One more question if I may. Are MCAT scores somehow curved with other applicants taking the exam? Would it be wise to take it at the end of the year prior to applying like in Dec of 2015 with the idea to apply June of 2016?

Ive been scoping the scene at some DO schools online and will also check out the possibility of visiting a few to speak to admissions officers (do they allow such a thing?) when I am home for a visit this summer.

You guys are excellent. I have a feeling I will be needing your input again in the near future...

 

[DrMidlife]

There's no game-able score advantage or disadvantage in an MCAT date.

Take the MCAT once and only once, for best results. If that's a December exam, that's fine.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Very helpful information.

One more question if I may. Are MCAT scores somehow curved with other applicants taking the exam? Would it be wise to take it at the end of the year prior to applying like in Dec of 2015 with the idea to apply June of 2016?

Ive been scoping the scene at some DO schools online and will also check out the possibility of visiting a few to speak to admissions officers (do they allow such a thing?) when I am home for a visit this summer.

You guys are excellent. I have a feeling I will be needing your input again in the near future...

@Goro is in admissions at his school. What do you think about her plan, goro?

 

[Goro]

I think that OP should pay careful attention to what DrMidlife is saying. VERY careful attention.

My school accepts online coursework, as long as it's from an accredited university. Still, i want to see some evidence that OP can survive in a real academic environment.

@Goro is in admissions at his school. What do you think about her plan, goro?

 

[NonTradJp]

This is an aside but would the kids adjust well if you need to come back to take pre-reqs + some upper division courses? Would that need to wait?

 

[jl lin]

I have non trads who will apply 25-35 MD schools and additional 10-15 DO schools

Well, I have no crystal ball, but I don't think I will apply to that many schools, b/c it would be problematic for my family. I think no more than 3 hours by car or 2 hours by plane would be the capping point for me. So, it's not just about the money. But also, why spend money on schools where you know you probably won't attend b/c of other conflicts? I also don't think I would do more than one cycle of applications. Again, things could change, but I have to be real.

 

[Remedium85]

You are in a fairly similar position as I am. I live in Japan at the moment, my husband is military. I have contacted all the schools I plan on applying to, and every single one has gotten back to me which is great. Here's the gist of what they said...basically the initial glance at your transcripts would not show that the classes were completed online, unless the school you attended was a strictly online school. BUT of course they will find out sooner or later. Every school I contacted had no problem with me completing my bachelor's online (in Global Health), especially being a military spouse, but a few did say that the classes that really matter are the science pre-reqs. And those should be done face to face. We are moving back to the states this fall/winter, and my plan is to enroll in a post-bacc program to cover all my pre-reqs and prep me for the MCAT. I really don't feel like online science classes will prepare me for the MCAT, they're just not the same.
I totally know your feeling of "hurry this up!" and I have spent many frustrated days and nights because of my situation. But then I realized that I would rather do it right, and have confidence that I will do well on the MCAT, then just take the classes to get them down on paper. Most of the post-bacc programs I have looked at are only 9 months anyways, so not much time at all.
If you're looking at going to med school in the states, I'm assuming your husband's job will be moving your family back sometime in the next few years?

 

[OiMama]

Very good information from everyone above. Thank you.

Remedium85, nice to see someone else living abroad on here. My husbands job will not move us back to the US, he will need to quit his job which is the only real source of income for our family since nurse midwives here make about 1k a month minus taxes. He has worked in the US before and should be able to find something there if we moved back for medical school but it might take a little while and be unlikely to match his salary here.

Goro, is it factored in at all that I have a in person bachelors degree from a state school that has its own medical school and that all my biology courses are from there? Or that my masters in midwifery was also done in person, albeit in another country?
Also, what do you know/think about the UNE classes? Red flag, toss to the side or decent for online?

Thank you!!