Moving on / Switching Career Paths

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spongecake

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Lately the more I think about my future in veterinary medicine, the more anxious I get. Not shockingly, the number one thing that is causing me this anxiety is the financial aspect of vet school, but I have also become frustrated with how limiting veterinary med is in terms of opportunities for cutting edge treatments and more experimental medicine compared to human medicine. Additionally, many of the vets with whom I have worked (including those in my desired specialty) have been less than enthusiastic about their current situations.

Has anyone thought about making this switch to MD/DO programs (or the opposite)? Could you share your experiences with deciding to switch fields or not? If I apply I will need to ask some of the same people for letters of recommendation to medical schools as I did for veterinary schools and I'm also not totally sure how to handle that.

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@StartingoverVet actually made the switch while in vet school. He has a few posts on the matter and will surely chime in here as well. If you really want to go into research, I would go the PhD route. I get that it's not the same thing as doing research as a DVM or MD, but if I wanted to focus on research, I wouldn't go through the hassle of going through this horrible application process and the vigorous study years and high amount of debt. I'm not saying that getting a PhD is a walk in the park, but it's the easier of the 3 routes for what you want to do.

Edit: Before I get flamed, yes I know some PhD programs are harder than vet school. I meant easier in general (i.e. financial burden, return on investment, etc.).
 
If you're looking for return on investment... Don't do a PhD! Like vet med, it's something you only do because it is your passion.

A good biologist is a dime a dozen, and there are so many brilliant people out there living paycheck to paycheck due to a lack of "real" jobs. The small percentage of people who "make it" are fairly comfortable, but that's just like how a few veterinarians who "make it" do well.

As a new grad vet, my take home salary is 2-2.5x that of my bf who is a neuroscientist in the typical endless cycle of postdocs. He ain't shabby either. He's been working in the Harvard system for over 5 years since he's gotten his PhD and has authored a paper in nature neuroscience. All of his friends are PhDs in their mid to late 30s working for Harvard, MIT, or Tufts, and they are all in the same rut. Some have gotten non-tenure track low level faculty positions, but those are essentially made up positions for the hordes of people who have essentially aged out of postdocs that need a permanent position. Salaries are still crappy. And given that Boston has a ton of industry jobs out there, I can't imagine how hard it would be in other areas of the country.

My old boss (PhD with 25 years of experience) who was pretty well published and working for a world renowned endocrinologist... similar situation. Low level research faculty position with pretty low pay. He is an editor for some journals, and is far from being a bad scientist. The MD residents my SO knows get paid more than him or any of his other PhD friends. The good thing is they all love what they do, and are super passionate about their research.


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MD programs are so much more unforgiving compared to vet school admissions. DO will let you grade replace but that's time and cost for you to retake classes, take the MCAT, go on interviews, etc. If finances are a concern, not an ideal situation.

Frankly, it sounds like you want to do research but aren't sure what else you want. Why not start with a masters in a field that interests you? If you love it, go for the PhD. If not, you've had two years to reconsider your path and build on a potential application to a professional school. It just doesn't sound as though medicine of either variety is your real interest.
 
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I dunno the finances or job satisfaction of DOs but that might be your best shot. MD schools tend to be less forgiving of bad GPAs... Depends on how bad your GPA was I guess, but if vet schools didn't like your GPA, I have a hard time believing MD schools will be okay with it
 
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Hi Spongecake,

I'm a non-trad vet student (I'm 35), and arrived at this juncture following an initial career in basic science. I began my PhD in Comparative Physiology in a well-regarded program (top 5 globally for the specialty) in 2001. I was gung-ho...absolutely dead set on becoming a tier 1 faculty scientist (just like my mentor). There was no alternative career path in my mind. Eight years later, I left my PhD with a Master's Degree. I love science and the physical aspect of 'doing' research (the hands-on, as well as project design). What I didn't like was the pressure to publish (not only the quantity of papers put out, but also the competition to which journals they went) and the cut-throat competition for grants. I'm a decent writer. When I arrived in grad school, I was ok with the notion of having to publish to keep your career (I published my first, primary author publication as an undergraduate). I even enjoyed writing. Nothing made me hate writing more than graduate school. At that level, writing isn't just writing- it's writing to convince your audience that your ideas are worth a second glance. I'm a great technical writer, but a poor persuasive author. Grant applications are, in effect, persuasive writing. The rejection in graduate school is constant. You've got to toughen up, and quick. I'm not saying that rejection doesn't happen in other fields, but with the current funding climate for academic science, it's ever-present.

I recommend spending some time with yourself to decide why you want to pursue the PhD. For me, it was about the mentorship involved in science training. I desperately wanted to be an acolyte at that stage, to learn the craft from a master. Although a noble ideal, this was a poor reason for choosing that road. I did learn science from a Master Craftsman. He's now the Dean of Research from my alma mater, and I couldn't be more proud of him. I still look up to him, and admire his mind and political sensibilities (also important for a successful academic). We're friends now, despite me having departed the PhD. In fact, he wrote me a stellar recommendation for vet school and was very supportive of the career move. I'll never regret my time in graduate school. I learned more about myself than I can ever put into words, and did some quality science along the way. Graduate school led me to lab animal medicine, my true professional love. Following my exit from the PhD, I worked in industry for multiple years. I learned what it's like to be dumped by a company at the drop of a hat because or corporate restructuring- another tough lesson. That being said, I found that I quite enjoyed industry science. It's here that I'd like to end up post-lab animal residency.

Make no mistake, I'd do it again- not for the degree, but for the life experience. I can't comment on the MD/DO route. Others will have more to say on that issue than I do. If you're serious about being a productive scientist (particularly in academia), the PhD is the way to go. A clinical degree will introduce you to a broad spectrum of topics in biology, but it won't teach you the craft of empirical research- and, I would argue, the equally as important component of the job- science writing.

Good luck with your decision! Think long and hard about this one. A PhD is a long, lonely road. The compensation can be decent, but certainly isn't out of the park. Do science because you love science AND love to WRITE about science. I wish you the best.
 
Hi Spongecake,

I'm a non-trad vet student (I'm 35), and arrived at this juncture following an initial career in basic science. I began my PhD in Comparative Physiology in a well-regarded program (top 5 globally for the specialty) in 2001. I was gung-ho...absolutely dead set on becoming a tier 1 faculty scientist (just like my mentor). There was no alternative career path in my mind. Eight years later, I left my PhD with a Master's Degree. I love science and the physical aspect of 'doing' research (the hands-on, as well as project design). What I didn't like was the pressure to publish (not only the quantity of papers put out, but also the competition to which journals they went) and the cut-throat competition for grants. I'm a decent writer. When I arrived in grad school, I was ok with the notion of having to publish to keep your career (I published my first, primary author publication as an undergraduate). I even enjoyed writing. Nothing made me hate writing more than graduate school. At that level, writing isn't just writing- it's writing to convince your audience that your ideas are worth a second glance. I'm a great technical writer, but a poor persuasive author. Grant applications are, in effect, persuasive writing. The rejection in graduate school is constant. You've got to toughen up, and quick. I'm not saying that rejection doesn't happen in other fields, but with the current funding climate for academic science, it's ever-present.

I recommend spending some time with yourself to decide why you want to pursue the PhD. For me, it was about the mentorship involved in science training. I desperately wanted to be an acolyte at that stage, to learn the craft from a master. Although a noble ideal, this was a poor reason for choosing that road. I did learn science from a Master Craftsman. He's now the Dean of Research from my alma mater, and I couldn't be more proud of him. I still look up to him, and admire his mind and political sensibilities (also important for a successful academic). We're friends now, despite me having departed the PhD. In fact, he wrote me a stellar recommendation for vet school and was very supportive of the career move. I'll never regret my time in graduate school. I learned more about myself than I can ever put into words, and did some quality science along the way. Graduate school led me to lab animal medicine, my true professional love. Following my exit from the PhD, I worked in industry for multiple years. I learned what it's like to be dumped by a company at the drop of a hat because or corporate restructuring- another tough lesson. That being said, I found that I quite enjoyed industry science. It's here that I'd like to end up post-lab animal residency.

Make no mistake, I'd do it again- not for the degree, but for the life experience. I can't comment on the MD/DO route. Others will have more to say on that issue than I do. If you're serious about being a productive scientist (particularly in academia), the PhD is the way to go. A clinical degree will introduce you to a broad spectrum of topics in biology, but it won't teach you the craft of empirical research- and, I would argue, the equally as important component of the job- science writing.

Good luck with your decision! Think long and hard about this one. A PhD is a long, lonely road. The compensation can be decent, but certainly isn't out of the park. Do science because you love science AND love to WRITE about science. I wish you the best.
i was under the impression there is lots of writing, grant seeking, and schmoozing in lab animal med? at least there is in the residency track my friend is doing...
 
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That's a good point, JMO. Depends on what you want to do in LAM. I'm not interested in having my own bench science program. Some Lab Animal vets do, and are quite happy going the dual clinical/PI route. I'm targeting a mid-level clinical position (hopefully in industry), not even interested in being a director. In my residency, I'll need to apply for grants and publish additional papers, but then I plan on being done with that life. My true passion in the Lab Animal realm is regulatory compliance and model development. I'd be perfectly capable of advising PIs as to the proper models for use with their questions, and the regulatory component certainly doesn't require research productivity. As for the schmooze, you're right. That's true in any field. I don't enjoy doing it, but did learn from my graduate PI, an absolute master. I'm capable of the schmooze (and will do it when required), but don't enjoy it.
 
This is really not very accurate. More like what minnerbelle said is what is accurate.
Well at the institutions that my friends are getting their PhD's at, their tuition is 100% covered by their assistantship so yes I would say that route is easier financially. If you don't agree though, that's ok. That's what opinions are for.
 
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Thank you all for such wonderful replies!

I should clarify that I am not gung-ho about basic science and research. I love the research that I do, but I know that a huge part of why I enjoy it is because I'm not stuck with one specific project or task. I am unfortunately very aware of the plight of postdocs in the basic sciences, and know that that it is not my ideal place. Admittedly, the initial lower cost of pursuing a research based masters or PhD is appealing, but in the long run I don't see myself in a PI position. I would definitely not enter a PhD program without having put a lot more thought into it.

I do love medicine, and can honestly see myself in a clinical role as an MD/DO more so than as a DVM. This isn't because I don't like actually practicing medicine, but rather that I am so so frustrated by how rarely it seems that DVM can actually practice medicine to the full scope of their abilities. I have spent a lot of time in small animal private practice and shelter medicine and have seen over and over again owners choosing euthanasia or a "wait and see" approach over more effective procedures due to cost. As a pet owner, I understand why and I have unfortunately made those choices before, but as a DVM I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to deal with that on the daily. It was a bit of a reality check when at a vet school tour I recently attended, the guide mentioned their linear accelerator and then followed it up with "but you'll never get to use something like that; no one is willing to pay for it."
 
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Well at the institutions that my friends are getting their PhD's at, their tuition is 100% covered by their assistantship so yes I would say that route is easier financially. If you don't agree though, that's ok. That's what opinions are for.

That's great if everyone who ever does a PhD gets an assistantship, but that isn't always the case. Also keep in mind that in order to get a full tuition waver from an assitantship, the person has to work 20 hours/week. Recommendations should be based on what the majority of students get going into a program and not every PhD student will get an assitantship. Granted, I think most PhD programs are cheaper on average than veterinary school is, but I would still anticipate having to pay in full for the program that you apply for. And getting a PhD might open you to more earning than a DVM, but it is a hell of a hill to climb to get to that point (if you even can, see Minnerbelle's post), I wouldn't be recommending it as a way to get a high salary. You are better off to go the MD/DO route if you are looking for a better debt:income ratio over either a PhD or a DVM.
 
I do love medicine, and can honestly see myself in a clinical role as an MD/DO more so than as a DVM. This isn't because I don't like actually practicing medicine, but rather that I am so so frustrated by how rarely it seems that DVM can actually practice medicine to the full scope of their abilities.

This is an unfortunate reality in human medicine as well. Instead of owners who aren't willing to pay, it's insurance companies who aren't. Or patients who don't agree with your treatment recommendations because they read on Google that they can be cured by drinking clay and giving themselves apple cider enemas.
 
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I do love medicine, and can honestly see myself in a clinical role as an MD/DO more so than as a DVM. This isn't because I don't like actually practicing medicine, but rather that I am so so frustrated by how rarely it seems that DVM can actually practice medicine to the full scope of their abilities. I have spent a lot of time in small animal private practice and shelter medicine and have seen over and over again owners choosing euthanasia or a "wait and see" approach over more effective procedures due to cost.

This is true in private practice and in shelter medicine. In shelter medicine, there just aren't the funds, you can't do chemo on every animal that is relinquished because it has cancer. You can't do TPLO's on every animal that is relinquished for a torn cruciate. You can't expect to keep a litter of kittens in the shelter with ringworm and have it not spread like fire. All of that sucks, but resources are limited in a shelter so you have to do what is best for the majority. In private general practice, you may not ever get to do more extensive treatments, but you can recommend them. We had many clients that would go to a ophthalmologist, dermatologist, oncologist, surgeon, etc. We also had clients that could not afford those options, so as a general practitioner you do the best you can.

However, there are specialties in vet med where you do get to do those more extensive treatments. At the vet school here, they have had dogs on ventilators and thrown everything they can at them and they have won a good number of those fights as well. In vet med, it is largely dependent upon the owner and finances and it can suck at times, but in some specialty areas, there are people that will pay $10,000+ to save their pets. Does it happen often? Probably not, but it does happen. People also do try cancer treatments on pets as well, both radiation and chemotherapy. So the potential to do more and what is "similar" to human med is there.

Also vet med doesn't stop there, if you are interested in research you can do that as a vet as well. Though often times, they will ask you to get in a PhD too as it gives you a more broad range of research that you can conduct.

So yes, it is very common in shelter medicine and private practice that clients don't have the funds to do extensive treatment and euthanasia or less than the "gold standard" is done, but that is a very small glimpse into the vastness that is veterinary medicine.
 
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Well at the institutions that my friends are getting their PhD's at, their tuition is 100% covered by their assistantship so yes I would say that route is easier financially. If you don't agree though, that's ok. That's what opinions are for.
Oh yeah that is a given, I would never ever ever recommend anyone spend money on a PhD.

For the longest time, I really thought the no debt for education made the PhD worth it. But after seeing multiple family members go that route (all but my brother in law mastered out and left due to poor prospects), and after meeting more and more people in the rut, the more I'm happy about my choices.

I'm certainly far from calling vet med a profession of sunshine and roses, but I am ever so glad I picked it over a PhD.
 
Well at the institutions that my friends are getting their PhD's at, their tuition is 100% covered by their assistantship so yes I would say that route is easier financially. If you don't agree though, that's ok. That's what opinions are for.

Any perks that being paid 21k a year pre-tax and being worked like Boxer the drafthorse affords you disappears as you are funnelled into postdoc after postdoc making **** and being worked to death, with only single-digit percentages of people eventually achieving tenure and stable jobs.

A science PhD is an even worse financial decision right now than veterinary medicine. I really hate to say so, because I have always loved research and discovery, but it is. Academic research is now a corporate entity.
 
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Any perks that being paid 21k a year pre-tax and being worked like Boxer the drafthorse affords you disappears as you are funnelled into postdoc after postdoc making **** and being worked to death, with only single-digit percentages of people eventually achieving tenure and stable jobs.

A science PhD is an even worse financial decision right now than veterinary medicine. I really hate to say so, because I have always loved research and discovery, but it is. Academic research is now a corporate entity.

I was hoping you would comment. :)
 
Thank you all for such wonderful replies!

I should clarify that I am not gung-ho about basic science and research. I love the research that I do, but I know that a huge part of why I enjoy it is because I'm not stuck with one specific project or task (instead I'm a consultant for a variety of labs and help with a specific aspect of their experimental design and execution). I am unfortunately very aware of the plight of postdocs in the basic sciences, and know that that it is not my ideal place. Admittedly, the initial lower cost of pursuing a research based masters or PhD is appealing, but in the long run I don't see myself in a PI position. I would definitely not enter a PhD program without having put a lot more thought into it.

I do love medicine, and can honestly see myself in a clinical role as an MD/DO more so than as a DVM. This isn't because I don't like actually practicing medicine, but rather that I am so so frustrated by how rarely it seems that DVM can actually practice medicine to the full scope of their abilities. I have spent a lot of time in small animal private practice and shelter medicine and have seen over and over again owners choosing euthanasia or a "wait and see" approach over more effective procedures due to cost. As a pet owner, I understand why and I have unfortunately made those choices before, but as a DVM I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to deal with that on the daily. It was a bit of a reality check when at a vet school tour I recently attended, the guide mentioned their linear accelerator and then followed it up with "but you'll never get to use something like that; no one is willing to pay for it."


I definitely agree that I need to look more into DO schools. My GPA and sGPA are both around a 3.2, which makes me a poor candidate for MD schools. I would also need to take the MCAT which would certainly be a challenge. Part of what is causing me to think more and more about switching is that my GRE scores are expiring so I'll unfortunately need to retake that too if I intend to reapply to vet school or choose the PhD route.

Sounds like DO would be a good option for you. I'd head over to the pre-osteopathic section and dig around with the search function. Good luck :)
 
I was a pre-med, shadowed multiple physicians and figured it wasn't my thing. I started working in a research lab that made me very enthusiastic about it so thought about PhD...but then I suck at writing and didn't wanna spend 100% of my work time in the lab and the office and I don't really wanna be a professor either.

I've always loved animals and medicine still interested me so much that I decided to go for DVM in lab animal med and do some research on the side (which is what my DVM mentor does).
 
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