MSW vs. PsyD

[psychprincess]

Hello all,

I am a junior completing my BS at Stony Brook University in Psychology (concentrations in Bio & Chem), with a minor in Health and Wellness. I have read all the other threads with the same title and am fully aware of the simple differences between the two degrees, i.e. length of time to completion, opportunities after graduation, etc. I was hoping someone could tell me more about the differences in the content of each program, like classes, difficulty, clinical opportunities, etc.

I also want to know if my stats are good enough for a PsyD program- I should graduate with a 3.6 GPA, 3.5 the lowest, and I will have had experience as a crisis counselor, TA, research assistant, and neuropsych intern by the time I apply.

Thank you, I look forward to hearing your responses!

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[Therapist4Chnge]

Apples v. Oranges comparison.

What is your goal after training?

 

[psychprincess]

Thank you for your response!

Ultimately, I would like to have my own practice doing therapy and the opportunity to work in a hospital part time at some point in my career.

 

[Dahresto]

So how long do you really want to stay in school?

 

[psychprincess]

That's a great question. It would be great if I could graduate in two years with my degree and be able to start working, but if I liked the content of the material and training more in a PsyD program I'd gladly spend the extra time.

 

[deleted343839]

That's a great question. It would be great if I could graduate in two years with my degree and be able to start working, but if I liked the content of the material and training more in a PsyD program I'd gladly spend the extra time.

Just to clarify, you cannot complete a two-year master's degree and immediately start to practice independently. In most states a clinical social worker needs 2 years of supervised experience after completing the master's degree in order to become licensed to practice independently. In reality, you're looking at four years (minimum) of coursework and on-the-job training before private practice is an option.

 

[psychprincess]

Hi, MamaPhD! Thank you for your input. I know I wouldn't be able to start a practice right away, I just meant that it would be nice to have the possibility to start working somewhere after two or three years.

 

[bmedclinic]

Hi, MamaPhD! Thank you for your input. I know I wouldn't be able to start a practice right away, I just meant that it would be nice to have the possibility to start working somewhere after two or three years.

You can certainly do that. This is an area specifically where I think social work has psych beat. As best I can tell, there are quite a few options to get your MSW, get out, start to work, and work somewhere (I'm not an agency kind of guy, but agencies are good options here) for 2-3 years while you get your hours. Sometimes, they can also do some sort of loan forgiveness, albeit for giving you lower pay.

I'm not about to tell you what to do, but if what you're looking to do is primarily therapy, an MSW might be best. Psychologists do therapy + TONS of other things. The majority of psychologists I know spend a minority of their time actually doing therapy. Assessment, supervision, research, etc take up their day to day, and they spend some time doing therapy. This is, of course, up to you. Think about what you really want to do- do you want to see 8 clients a day? Have you considered burnout? What population do you want to work with, and in what capacity? Before jumping to one degree path or another, those things should all be considered. There is overlap between psych and social work, but they really aren't the same. Have you shadowed people or sat down and discussed the job with people you know who are in that profession?

 

[psychprincess]

Hi, bmedclinic. Yes, I have! I had the opportunity to shadow a neuropsychologist and two post docs for a few months. I also sat down and talked to a LCSW about the program she attended. I'm just still a little confused about the differences in courses and practica between the two types of programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

There are miles of difference between what an LCSW does and what a neuropsychologist does. There shouldn't be any confusion about the differences here.

 

[psychprincess]

I am very familiar with what a neuropsychologist does. I meant that I was unsure of how similar or different the curriculum between the MSW and PsyD are. I'm not talking about after graduation, I'm talking about the actual courses and training in the programs. Someone told me that a PsyD is essentially an MSW but longer and I'm obviously a little skeptical of that.

 

[WisNeuro]

I am very familiar with what a neuropsychologist does. I meant that I was unsure of how similar or different the curriculum between the MSW and PsyD are. I'm not talking about after graduation, I'm talking about the actual courses and training in the programs. Someone told me that a PsyD is essentially an MSW but longer and I'm obviously a little skeptical of that.

Really depends on the PsyD. They run the gamut from diploma mill (Fielding/Alliant/Argosy/Albizu/etc) to a handful of actual reputable sites (Rutgers/Baylor/spalding/couple others). The reputable PsyD's operate much like balanced PhD's. The non-reputable ones operate like money trees for investors.

 

[deleted343839]

I am very familiar with what a neuropsychologist does. I meant that I was unsure of how similar or different the curriculum between the MSW and PsyD are. I'm not talking about after graduation, I'm talking about the actual courses and training in the programs. Someone told me that a PsyD is essentially an MSW but longer and I'm obviously a little skeptical of that.

Most graduate programs have a student handbook that gives the details of what you seem to be looking for. So get your hands on the student handbooks for the top two or three programs that interest you in each field and have a look. Many handbooks are downloadable from the program's web site, but if not then you could request one by email. Beyond coursework, you will have certain expectations for projects, comps (for some doctoral programs), dissertation or thesis requirements, mentoring/advising, colloquia/seminars, etc. That's why it's kind of difficult to say broadly how one type of program is different than another.. yes, there are differences between fields but also plenty of differences between programs within the same field. The student handbook will give you a feel for the basic expectations of each program.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am very familiar with what a neuropsychologist does. I meant that I was unsure of how similar or different the curriculum between the MSW and PsyD are. I'm not talking about after graduation, I'm talking about the actual courses and training in the programs. Someone told me that a PsyD is essentially an MSW but longer and I'm obviously a little skeptical of that.

Completely agree with MamaPhD's advice and also completely disagree that a PsyD is a longer version of an MSW. A psychologist and a social worker are two distinct fields. Sure there is some overlap, but the foundations for each vary tremendously. Psychology is at it's core the study of the human mind. Clinical psychology is the application of that science. In this arena we should develop a level of proficiency regarding research, psychological assessment (testing), teaching, psycho-therapeutic interventions, legal and ethical issues, interpersonal and intrapersonal functioning, professional collaboration/consultation. You would have to talk to a social worker to get their perspective on what they do.

As an aside, I wonder if we should have a sticky thread about what a clinical psychologist does and the various specialties within that.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Hi, MamaPhD! Thank you for your input. I know I wouldn't be able to start a practice right away, I just meant that it would be nice to have the possibility to start working somewhere after two or three years.

In a good doctoral program, you actually are working after 2 years. It's not uncommon to be in a half time, paid clinical practicum, and also doing clinical work in an in-house training clinic during your 2nd-3rd year of training. It's not full time pay, but it's definitely working.

An LICSW may be a more efficient path to your career goals. It'd likely result in your ability to generate a living income coming sooner than a doctoral clinical degree. The doctoral degree will, however, likely offer more flexibility with what you can do clinically and professionally, with a chance for delayed, but higher overall, earning potential. Regardless of the choice, you will be working a seeing clients (in a supervised-and hopefully remunerated- capacity), within a year or two.

 

[bmedclinic]

As an aside, I wonder if we should have a sticky thread about what a clinical psychologist does and the various specialties within that.

Without looking, I think the APA has done a good job profiling many diverse clinical psych careers (at least they're doing something well, right?)
Anyways, if said thread existed, perhaps the best route is to just collectively link those different bios and get some SW ones to compare/contrast with to help students really get a better understanding.

When going into psych I really didnt know much about social work. Social work probably isnt the best fit for me (clinical psych def is) , but I admittedly made a lucky decision, not an informed decision.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Without looking, I think the APA has done a good job profiling many diverse clinical psych careers (at least they're doing something well, right?)
Anyways, if said thread existed, perhaps the best route is to just collectively link those different bios and get some SW ones to compare/contrast with to help students really get a better understanding.

When going into psych I really didnt know much about social work. Social work probably isnt the best fit for me (clinical psych def is) , but I admittedly made a lucky decision, not an informed decision.

I also made a fortunate decision based on limited information and biases. That is to say, I had a stereotype of a social worker as a harried, underpaid, caseworker in an underfunded government agency. Didn't know anything about other options for that career. I also didn't know that much about clinical psychologists, but the stereotype I had was that they were a lot cooler.

 

[Peacemaker36]

Agreed that psychology's core is the study of the human mind. My semi-informed understanding of social work is that it's core is about how systems affect individuals.

But obviously, every school is different, and the number of paths after graduation are seemingly infinite...

OP, you can accomplish your career goals (PP, hospital work) with both degrees. In a hospital setting you might find that psychologists and social workers are viewed interchangeably by Human Resources.

 

[foreverbull]

If you just want to conduct therapy, the MSW route is faster and cheaper, and the licensing is standard nationally in the field of social work (so I was told by an MSW) which simplifies the process of moving if you want to live elsewhere, whereas doctorates rely on individual, state-by-state requirements, which can be a huge hassle.
I would advise only going for a doctorate if you want to supervise clinicians, do assessments, supervise/conduct research, teach, become a clinical director, etc. in addition to clinical work. There are a lot of jobs out there for master's level clinicians.

 

[Goobernut]

I also made a fortunate decision based on limited information and biases. That is to say, I had a stereotype of a social worker as a harried, underpaid, caseworker in an underfunded government agency. Didn't know anything about other options for that career. I also didn't know that much about clinical psychologists, but the stereotype I had was that they were a lot cooler.

Honestly this is all I knew about them too. I also had that same stereotype hahaha. So much so, that I was almost offended when someone suggested that I get a social work master's degree instead of a psychology degree. I think when I see caseworkers at DHS it still makes me flinch. Right now I'm so flipping pleased with my choice, because of where it will eventually put me professionally. Though I will be 100% honest, I think that I probably could have arrived at the same place through a number of different programs.

 

[PsyDr]

When I have read msw curricula, the majority have between 2-4 classes in psychotherapy including their version of practicum. Add in another 2 years of supervision of license.

Most apa accredited psyd programs require a minimum of 5 courses in psychotherapy, one year practicum which is typically listed as 2-3 courses, and practicum supervision class for 2-3 semesters. Then internship, which may or may not include any substantial psychotherapy rotations. Add in another year for post doc before license. If you choose you can always add another psychotherapy practicum as well.

So you are comparing 4 classes in training to 9 classes in training.

Every time I mention this, the social workers freak out and mention all manner of reasons why I am wrong including "integration in all classes", which if applied to the psyd model would mean you are comparing 30 some odd hours to 100 some odd hours.

Financially, you are comparing a 50k salary to an 80k salary. And yes, I know there are stories of an msw making bank, and there are similar ones from psychologists. Median debt from a psyd is 120k. Median debt from an msw is around 25k.

 

[wesleysmith]

When I have read msw curricula, the majority have between 2-4 classes in psychotherapy including their version of practicum. Add in another 2 years of supervision of license.

Most apa accredited psyd programs require a minimum of 5 courses in psychotherapy, one year practicum which is typically listed as 2-3 courses, and practicum supervision class for 2-3 semesters. Then internship, which may or may not include any substantial psychotherapy rotations. Add in another year for post doc before license. If you choose you can always add another psychotherapy practicum as well.

So you are comparing 4 classes in training to 9 classes in training.

Every time I mention this, the social workers freak out and mention all manner of reasons why I am wrong including "integration in all classes", which if applied to the psyd model would mean you are comparing 30 some odd hours to 100 some odd hours.

Financially, you are comparing a 50k salary to an 80k salary. And yes, I know there are stories of an msw making bank, and there are similar ones from psychologists. Median debt from a psyd is 120k. Median debt from an msw is around 25k.

lol. I think I responded to one of the other hundred threads on this subject about that glorification/reduction argument. Not freaking out though. At this point I think we can all chuckle at that approach.