nationalized heathcare and dentistry

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my bad man...

Would you be for it if it included dentistry though like the NHS?

I'd need to see the details, but yeah! of course! it would raise the bar in terms of health in our country. the only question to ask in these situations would be "is it in the best interest of our patients." if the answer is yes, then i'm for it.

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I'd need to see the details, but yeah! of course! it would raise the bar in terms of health in our country. the only question to ask in these situations would be "is it in the best interest of our patients." if the answer is yes, then i'm for it.

Fair enough, but I don't believe the bolded above is a given, in fact I don't buy into it at all, but that's okay that we agree to disagree.

And the best interest of our patients would be for us to work for free, so I don't know how realistic of a statement that is as well, I mean, where is the line and who draws it? I don't trust other people to look out for my well-being and for good reason, and I would advise others to do the same.

It's nice to dream about unicorns and gumdrop kisses, but no one has yet to show me how this will be anything but a colossal mess. Somebody (seniors, physicians, taxpayers) is going to be left holding the bag, and they are not going to be happy about it. I am open to all ideas, but I've seen nothing but a combination of bold-faced lies, lies of omission, and "trust us, we're the government and we're here to help you," and that doesn't instill too much confidence in someone like me because I'm the one who's gonna get stuck for the bill when the gubment says "oops, my bad."

Again, I don't want to get into a big stupid argument here as we obviously hold different ideological stances and that's not going to change through an exchange such as this so I'll just stop talking because it's not worth either of our time.
 
Fair enough, but I don't believe the bolded above is a given, in fact I don't buy into it at all, but that's okay that we agree to disagree.

And the best interest of our patients would be for us to work for free, so I don't know how realistic of a statement that is as well, I mean, where is the line and who draws it? I don't trust other people to look out for my well-being and for good reason, and I would advise others to do the same.

It's nice to dream about unicorns and gumdrop kisses, but no one has yet to show me how this will be anything but a colossal mess. Somebody (seniors, physicians, taxpayers) is going to be left holding the bag, and they are not going to be happy about it. I am open to all ideas, but I've seen nothing but a combination of bold-faced lies, lies of omission, and "trust us, we're the government and we're here to help you," and that doesn't instill too much confidence in someone like me because I'm the one who's gonna get stuck for the bill when the gubment says "oops, my bad."

Again, I don't want to get into a big stupid argument here as we obviously hold different ideological stances and that's not going to change through an exchange such as this so I'll just stop talking because it's not worth either of our time.


Perhaps we could wait for an actual bill or policy to talk about before we make a stance on the issue. I agree that there's no reason to get dug in quite yet.
In regards to compensation, I'm not working for free obviously, i have to make a living and i've got (ridiculous amounts of) student loans to pay off. that being said, if the government finds a way to pay me a fair compensation while expanding health coverage to millions of Americans in an econominal and logical way...i'm all for it. i think we should all be for it, and only against it when we get the details of an actual bill and not the mad fear-mongering of fox news.

i say fair compensation knowing that fair for some is as much more than fair to others, but that is another conversation all together.


p.s. GO CHARGERS! hahahaha
 
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Perhaps we could wait for an actual bill or policy to talk about before we make a stance on the issue. I agree that there's no reason to get dug in quite yet.
In regards to compensation, I'm not working for free obviously, i have to make a living and i've got (ridiculous amounts of) student loans to pay off. that being said, if the government finds a way to pay me a fair compensation while expanding health coverage to millions of Americans in an econominal and logical way...i'm all for it. i think we should all be for it, and only against it when we get the details of an actual bill and not the mad fear-mongering of fox news.

i say fair compensation knowing that fair for some is as much more than fair to others, but that is another conversation all together.


p.s. GO CHARGERS! hahahaha




Yes, golly gee, I'll work for whatever the government wants to pay me. And Im sure they know exactly how to run the program tooooo. Yipeeee. I love the world and think everyone should live forever. I mean, even the drug addict meth mouth should have the same rights as anyone else. flowers, peace, and love man. Lets line up this government program with the post office, social security, and medicare. But the issue is the post office is like the Pittsburgh Pirates, social security is the toronto blue jays, the post office is the triple A Nashville Sounds, and healthcare is the YANKEES. Wake up dude, there is a reason why there is so much rage.

And by the way, the chargers suck. LT is a total fake. He has showed his true colors......
 
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Yes, golly gee, I'll work for whatever the government wants to pay me. And Im sure they know exactly how to run the program tooooo. Yipeeee. I love the world and think everyone should live forever. I mean, even the drug addict meth mouth should have the same rights as anyone else. flowers, peace, and love man. Lets line up this government program with the post office, social security, and medicare. But the issue is the post office is like the Pittsburgh Pirates, social security is the toronto blue jays, the post office is the triple A Nashville Sounds, and healthcare is the fuhhcking YANKEES. Wake up dude, there is a reason why there is so much rage. Being in this field you need to get your head out of your clueless altruistic arse.

And by the way, the chargers suck. LT is a total fake. He has showed his true colors......



why so angry Ocean? your sarcasm must be rooted in the fear of change. relax. obama isn't coming to take your yacht and kill your grandmother, so stop spray painting swastikas on congressional parking spaces and then we can talk about substantial positions and concerns. either get a legit talking point or go back to crying about your stock portfolio and stop playing on the internet. you're like a Raiders fan; you're already upset about losing the game that hasn't even kicked off yet. hahaha a national heathcare OPTION (key word) is happening so lets try to worry about the details as they unfold.

Facts: LT is a 1st ballot hall of famer. Chargers suck? They'll walk into the playoffs this year. Not tooo suck-ish if you ask me.
 
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USPS Priority Mail is the ****, imo.
 
I mean, even the drug addict meth mouth should have the same rights as anyone else. flowers, peace, and love man.

Actually, yes, the drug addict does deserve the same rights as everyone else. You have no idea what might have pushed a person to drugs. With this type of judgemental attitude, I'm amazed you're in a healthcare profession. Peace and love, man...I know I'd want it. I don't see why you'd mock it...
 
Actually, yes, the drug addict does deserve the same rights as everyone else. You have no idea what might have pushed a person to drugs. With this type of judgemental attitude, I'm amazed you're in a healthcare profession. Peace and love, man...I know I'd want it. I don't see why you'd mock it...

Your right. My statement was certainly callous. Not my intention to say a drug addict does not have rights. My intention was more to give Oracle a hard time. I guess what I am trying to say, is people have choices about what they do in their lives. People may choose to do drugs instead of pay for their health insurance premium. People may choose to eat 2000 calories a day more than they need, rather than pay for their health insurance premium. Its their choice. The government wants to take these choices away. The goverment wants to overhaul a health program that doesn't need such a significant change. Certainly it needs improvement, but not completely changed. And as far as peace and love goes, I guess after working for as long as I have you start to see more of people abusing the system. It can shape your attitude.

My apologies to all Meth addicts. Peace and love, smoke on.....
 
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My apologies to all Meth addicts. Peace and love, smoke on.....

Haha, well-said.

You bring up an excellent point regarding choice. You're right; people do choose to do drugs or overeat. What I think would go a long way with this issue is to ask ourselves why people turn to drugs or overeating. It's not like everyone starts off on the same level, and those who end up fat or addicted are bad people.

I agree we don't need a complete overhaul of the healthcare system, but I think an overhaul on how we view the less fortunate would help a lot more with this matter than any bill in DC.
 
Perhaps we could wait for an actual bill or policy to talk about before we make a stance on the issue.


You must be too busy studying. This has been out for weeks.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf

The fear mongering you say that happens on Fox is legitimate concern based on this document. Of course the rest of the main stream media is going to single out the kooks with the swastikas to degrade the protest.


And the hits keep on coming!

Woman claims to be a physician supporting Obamacare, ends up being an Obama delegate.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/13/video-obamacare-fans-take-astroturfing-to-a-new-level/

Obama claimed the other day AARP supported him, AARP contradicts him later that day.

And you gotta love Obama's remarks that UPS and FedEx comepete successfully against the USPS "It's the post office that's always having problems". And government run healthcare will be better how...? Nice example of pulling the pin and throwing it while holding the grenade in the other hand.

Senate Finance Committee has dropped the "death panel"/end of life counseling from the Senate version.
 
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You must be too busy studying. This has been out for weeks.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf

The fear mongering you say that happens on Fox is legitimate concern based on this document. Of course the rest of the main stream media is going to single out the kooks with the swastikas to degrade the protest.


And the hits keep on coming!

Woman claims to be a physician supporting Obamacare, ends up being an Obama delegate.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/13/video-obamacare-fans-take-astroturfing-to-a-new-level/

Obama claimed the other day AARP supported him, AARP contradicts him later that day.

And you gotta love Obama's remarks that UPS and FedEx comepete successfully against the USPS “It's the post office that's always having problems”. And government run healthcare will be better how...? Nice example of pulling the pin and throwing it while holding the grenade in the other hand.

Senate Finance Committee has dropped the "death panel"/end of life counseling from the Senate version.


i don't think this is the final version, my understanding is that there are at least 5 different variations floating out there that they are still hammering out changes to the bill.


come on! you can't really watch fox news and not laugh at those jokers! fox is trying as hard as possible to wag the dog. they make a talking point, people call in to repeat said talking point that they heard on the show, they cover it as "news", and move forward pushing nonsense like "death panels". its all a horrible play on weak minded people and irrational fears. i'm not sure people are even aware of why they don't like socialism, not that they should be pro-socialism, but the majority don't even know what the issue is in the first place. all they know is comprised by the insults and 1 liners they hear on glen beck! its embarrasing. they are the same people who want to post the 10 commandments in public but couldn't name the 10 commandments.
they will never win this debate because their side isn't even debating!
 
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i don't think this is the final version, my understanding is that there are at least 5 different variations floating out there that they are still hammering out changes to the bill.


come on! you can't really watch fox news and not laugh at those jokers! fox is trying as hard as possible to wag the dog. they make a talking point, people call in to repeat said talking point that they heard on the show, they cover it as "news", and move forward pushing nonsense like "death panels". its all a horrible play on weak minded people and irrational fears. i'm not sure people are even aware of why they don't like socialism, not that they should be pro-socialism, but the majority don't even know what the issue is in the first place. all they know is comprised by the insults and 1 liners they hear on glen beck! its embarrasing. they are the same people who want to post the 10 commandments in public but couldn't name the 10 commandments.
they will never win this debate because their side isn't even debating!


Obama's approval numbers continue to drop. The American public's concerns over this health care government control continues to rise. And its all fox's fault right? The truth is NBC ABC and CNN are all in Love with the liberals. Its a fact. Fox leans right but at least the report both sides of the story. The consistently bring on liberals to argue the lefts point. Were does this happen on MSNBC? I mean have you really watched that hack Olbermann? He is as bad as Rush and does the 8:00 prime time spot for MSNBC. I am obviously conservative, but I try to watch and read all the different news outlets. Its disgusting how this President has been given such a free pass. You have to see it. He will say anything, lie, to ram this stuff through. I mean for heavens sake he made the comment about surgeons hacking off limbs for tens of thousands of dollars just for the return. Complete and utter BS. Have you ever seen such dissent and polarity in america in the last 25 years? Do you think just maybe there is a valid reason for it? This is just way too left legislation.

Bottom line, this president and the democrats are in trouble, and I love it.
 
Obama's approval numbers continue to drop. The American public's concerns over this health care government control continues to rise. And its all fox's fault right? The truth is NBC ABC and CNN are all in Love with the liberals. Its a fact. Fox leans right but at least the report both sides of the story. The consistently bring on liberals to argue the lefts point. Were does this happen on MSNBC? I mean have you really watched that hack Olbermann? He is as bad as Rush and does the 8:00 prime time spot for MSNBC. I am obviously conservative, but I try to watch and read all the different news outlets. Its disgusting how this President has been given such a free pass. You have to see it. He will say anything, lie, to ram this stuff through. I mean for heavens sake he made the comment about surgeons hacking off limbs for tens of thousands of dollars just for the return. Complete and utter BS. Have you ever seen such dissent and polarity in america in the last 25 years? Do you think just maybe there is a valid reason for it? This is just way too left legislation.

Bottom line, this president and the democrats are in trouble, and I love it.


not only do i completely disagree, your point of view is sad and its at the root of the problem. Americans suffer, and you smile from your crooked partisan little corner of the world? it doesn't matter if americans get the help they need as long as your "team" wins right? hmmmm. the media may lean left, but fox doesn't "lean" right! it's hanging off the edge! I don't thik the dems or our president is in much trouble, but if they were i wouldn't be too happy about it. it's not like uninsured or underinsured people are out buying other things with their "premium money". i guess growing up without insurance myself makes me appreciate the thought a little more. but i guess my case is no different than the MILLIONS of other americans out there in the same or worse position. un-f'ing-believable.
 
not only do i completely disagree, your point of view is sad and its at the root of the problem. Americans suffer, and you smile from your crooked partisan little corner of the world? it doesn't matter if americans get the help they need as long as your "team" wins right? hmmmm. the media may lean left, but fox doesn't "lean" right! it's hanging off the edge! I don't thik the dems or our president is in much trouble, but if they were i wouldn't be too happy about it. it's not like uninsured or underinsured people are out buying other things with their "premium money". i guess growing up without insurance myself makes me appreciate the thought a little more. but i guess my case is no different than the MILLIONS of other americans out there in the same or worse position. un-f'ing-believable.



I want change, but redistribution of wealth, and socialism, no thanks. Enjoying Hannity right now as we speak. Man Obamas numbers are tanking. Americans are waking up. Give it some time oracle, you may wake up too. Have you seen Dodd's, Reid's, and Pelosi's numbers? EEEEEWWWWW. And the Catch 22 for Obama is if he and congress ram this thing through they are lame ducks. Did you hear about the planted little girl who asked the second question during his NHampshire "town hall", what a joke! Are you kidding me!!!???? Obama is such a clown, and the american people are reading right through him. DO you wonder why only Fox's ratings are going up while the others down? Considerable difference too. Think about it, its not that hard to figure out.

Thanks Fox. Thanks for getting the truth out.
 
My engineering degree failed as well. Oh well. Maybe I'll try politics.

My engineering degree tells me your mentality (which is unfortunately shared by a lot more people in this country) is exactly the problem with our country. You want change? Sure, so long as it means you can continue to make big $$ and consider yourself better than the people that would benefit of universal quality healthcare. Let's face it, the conservative point-of-view likes things the way they are because it ensures they still have that "I'm better than you" way of measuring success. The problem is, that it ensures there will always be some "lower" class to which the "successful" people can look down upon.

Get off your high horse and realize that not everyone is dealt the same hand. Just as we all do not question paying for police protection, fire depts., court systems--even though we may never use it--so too, should we not question that healthcare is also something that people just might need. You still have your choice not to use it, but it will be there for those that need it...even those that don't earn the income of Hannity (or Obama).

Oh, and Fox isn't news. It's entertainment and conservative propaganda, at best. Sure, they'll bring someone from the left on, but it'll be a nobody, and they'll just talk over them the whole time.
 
My engineering degree tells me your mentality (which is unfortunately shared by a lot more people in this country) is exactly the problem with our country. You want change? Sure, so long as it means you can continue to make big $$ and consider yourself better than the people that would benefit of universal quality healthcare. Let's face it, the conservative point-of-view likes things the way they are because it ensures they still have that "I'm better than you" way of measuring success. The problem is, that it ensures there will always be some "lower" class to which the "successful" people can look down upon.

Get off your high horse and realize that not everyone is dealt the same hand. Just as we all do not question paying for police protection, fire depts., court systems--even though we may never use it--so too, should we not question that healthcare is also something that people just might need. You still have your choice not to use it, but it will be there for those that need it...even those that don't earn the income of Hannity (or Obama).

Oh, and Fox isn't news. It's entertainment and conservative propaganda, at best. Sure, they'll bring someone from the left on, but it'll be a nobody, and they'll just talk over them the whole time.


Maybe I am on a hi horse, but aren't we getting away from the purpose of the thread by personally attacking me. Certainly I am going to defend myself in jest, and sure it was arrogant. You do not know my background, and the hand dealt to me to get where I am today. As well you do not know what tax bracket I am in. Your response to the health care thread was another example of class warfare propagated by Obama and the left. This thought that the rich(which I am not) all look down on the poor, and its not fair. We need to level the playing field. Whats wrong with making money? Again you are drinking the kool aid. And where in any of my posts have I come across better then those less fortunate, looking down upon them (with the exception of the Meth addict which I apologized for).

Oh, and you are wrong about fox.
 
I don't think that's necessary. Just don't state "ITS A FACT" when your referring to something that's clearly your own opinion.

Getting back to the left media and their love for Obama and Obama health care, read for yourself.

http://www.mrc.org/realitycheck/realitycheck/2009/20090728110218.aspx

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-n...lled-not-because-media-havent-been-pulling-it


Statistical analysis has been done with respect to the content of the left media. If you don't think there is a significant bias you are crazy. Your dwelling on my "fact" statement is a waste of time. Why dont you contribute something to the thread rather than attack a poster. Don't get me wrong, I can take it, but its a waste of my time.

When does statistical analysis make it fact? I mean, if you can honestly say that the media is 60% favorable towards Obama and the liberal healthcare plan, does that make it a fact that they are biased?

During election:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=32928


http://www.cmpa.com/news/10_31_2008_b.pdf


And it goes on and on and on.
 
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My engineering degree tells me your mentality (which is unfortunately shared by a lot more people in this country) is exactly the problem with our country. You want change? Sure, so long as it means you can continue to make big $$ and consider yourself better than the people that would benefit of universal quality healthcare. Let's face it, the conservative point-of-view likes things the way they are because it ensures they still have that "I'm better than you" way of measuring success. The problem is, that it ensures there will always be some "lower" class to which the "successful" people can look down upon.

Get off your high horse and realize that not everyone is dealt the same hand. Just as we all do not question paying for police protection, fire depts., court systems--even though we may never use it--so too, should we not question that healthcare is also something that people just might need. You still have your choice not to use it, but it will be there for those that need it...even those that don't earn the income of Hannity (or Obama).

Oh, and Fox isn't news. It's entertainment and conservative propaganda, at best. Sure, they'll bring someone from the left on, but it'll be a nobody, and they'll just talk over them the whole time.



+1,000,000,000 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Ocean, you're right, I should clarify my statement. By "you" I was referring to the stereotypical conservatives that you know (and I mean you, now) just as well as I do are rich...very very rich, and not by obama's definition.

You may not be rich or have come from a silver-spoon background, but you are definitley arguing a lot of the points of someone that is.
There is nothing wrong with making money to support yourself and provide for your family. As a dentist or doctor (among other professions), there's nothing wrong with making GOOD money. If everyone had the same opportunities, and you (in the broad sense) still made millions, then there's nothing wrong with that. But using someone's poor health and misfortune to make the kind of money that allows one to buy a home that costs more in taxes each year than an average family income is sick--especially when so many people can't even afford a trip to the doctor for a cough.

A german co-worker of mine just had a baby. The company covered his medical costs, but he still couldn't believe the final bill...more than $12,000!! That's absolutely ridiculous. But we exploit the patient because, hey, it's not like they're just going to take the baby back...

And I'm right about fox news.
 
Ocean, you're right, I should clarify my statement. By "you" I was referring to the stereotypical conservatives that you know (and I mean you, now) just as well as I do are rich...very very rich, and not by obama's definition.

You may not be rich or have come from a silver-spoon background, but you are definitley arguing a lot of the points of someone that is.
There is nothing wrong with making money to support yourself and provide for your family. As a dentist or doctor (among other professions), there's nothing wrong with making GOOD money. If everyone had the same opportunities, and you (in the broad sense) still made millions, then there's nothing wrong with that. But using someone's poor health and misfortune to make the kind of money that allows one to buy a home that costs more in taxes each year than an average family income is sick--especially when so many people can't even afford a trip to the doctor for a cough.
A german co-worker of mine just had a baby. The company covered his medical costs, but he still couldn't believe the final bill...more than $12,000!! That's absolutely ridiculous. But we exploit the patient because, hey, it's not like they're just going to take the baby back...

And I'm right about fox news.



First, sure there are doctors out there that take advantage of their patients, as are there lawyers, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc, etc. Its never going to be a perfect world. Are you advocating that physicians and dentists should not purchase big homes and enjoy the work they put into their careers. 5-10 years graduate education/ residency, etc...etc.. I guess everyone should live in 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom 1500 square foot homes right? Owning a home is right I guess.

And as far as your German co worker, last I saw (at least in my area) a normal pregnancy without insurance runs 10 - 15k. So what medical costs did this company actually pay for?
 
No, I mean he got a copy the bill that the company paid...the company covered the entire birth, which was over $12k...I'm not saying that's not normal; I'm saying he was floored to see it was that expensive...

I'm not saying doctors and dentists don't deserve a healthy income for their hard work, which is why I said GOOD money. A nice home, nice car, sure...I agree they should make well-above the avg, but multiple multi-million $ homes is ridiculous...
 
No, I mean he got a copy the bill that the company paid...the company covered the entire birth, which was over $12k...I'm not saying that's not normal; I'm saying he was floored to see it was that expensive...

I'm not saying doctors and dentists don't deserve a healthy income for their hard work, which is why I said GOOD money. A nice home, nice car, sure...I agree they should make well-above the avg, but multiple multi-million $ homes is ridiculous...

Why?
So, whats fair then. Should the government determine what a fair sized house is?
Getting back to the thread.....should the government determine when I am too old to be treated for my cancer. I mean, as Obama would say, just take that pill, grandma is too old. I dont care that she is in perfect health, once you reach 80 you are too old.

Did you see they removed the death panel portion of the bill the other day. Do you wonder WHY IT WAS EVER EVEN IN THERE.
 
Ocean, you're right, I should clarify my statement. By "you" I was referring to the stereotypical conservatives that you know (and I mean you, now) just as well as I do are rich...very very rich, and not by obama's definition.

You may not be rich or have come from a silver-spoon background, but you are definitley arguing a lot of the points of someone that is.
There is nothing wrong with making money to support yourself and provide for your family. As a dentist or doctor (among other professions), there's nothing wrong with making GOOD money. If everyone had the same opportunities, and you (in the broad sense) still made millions, then there's nothing wrong with that. But using someone's poor health and misfortune to make the kind of money that allows one to buy a home that costs more in taxes each year than an average family income is sick--especially when so many people can't even afford a trip to the doctor for a cough.

A german co-worker of mine just had a baby. The company covered his medical costs, but he still couldn't believe the final bill...more than $12,000!! That's absolutely ridiculous. But we exploit the patient because, hey, it's not like they're just going to take the baby back...

And I'm right about fox news.

Having a baby cost $12,000 and you and your co-worker found that ridiculous. How about a post & core + crown that costs $1000? I mean it's just 1 tooth compared to an entire baby. Do you want to do a crown for $250 when your lab bill alone is $150?

Did it cost the octo-mom $96,000 to have her kids? Maybe if it had, she would've thought twice before having a bunch of kids she clearly is not financially ready to raise.

Clearly we don't all pay the same price for the same services.
 
I just got back from a trip to Canada (BC) a couple weeks ago. If it's 'socialism' that all this right wing wackos are screaming about, they have nothing to fear. Canada is in much better shape than much of the US.

Almost everyone has jobs, businesses pretty much line every inch of every road, the malls of overjammed with people, everybody has health care coverage and can't get denied for pre-existing conditions like they do by Blue cross here in the US. Lots of construction, infrastructure, beauty. Btw, dentists are doing great as well.

All these fears and outrage is manufactured by insurance companies who make hundreds of billions and don't want to see the people benefit. Support the president, and support this bill. It's not a bill that would give us Canada style health care (which wouldn't be that bad), but it gives people the option to buy health insurance from the government instead of from greedy insurance companies, and would subsidize people who can't afford it, that way we can cover the 50 million who don't have coverage.

Private insurance would still be huge and still be around btw. And the reimbursement rates of the public plan would not be tied to medicare, but would be close to private insurance rates. It's why the AMA endorsed the bill.
 
Why?
So, whats fair then. Should the government determine what a fair sized house is?
Getting back to the thread.....should the government determine when I am too old to be treated for my cancer. I mean, as Obama would say, just take that pill, grandma is too old. I dont care that she is in perfect health, once you reach 80 you are too old.

Did you see they removed the death panel portion of the bill the other day. Do you wonder WHY IT WAS EVER EVEN IN THERE.


there was never any death panel! are you watching news or just following sarah palin on twitter?
 
I just got back from a trip to Canada (BC) a couple weeks ago. If it's 'socialism' that all this right wing wackos are screaming about, they have nothing to fear. Canada is in much better shape than much of the US.

Almost everyone has jobs, businesses pretty much line every inch of every road, the malls of overjammed with people, everybody has health care coverage and can't get denied for pre-existing conditions like they do by Blue cross here in the US. Lots of construction, infrastructure, beauty. Btw, dentists are doing great as well.

All these fears and outrage is manufactured by insurance companies who make hundreds of billions and don't want to see the people benefit. Support the president, and support this bill. It's not a bill that would give us Canada style health care (which wouldn't be that bad), but it gives people the option to buy health insurance from the government instead of from greedy insurance companies, and would subsidize people who can't afford it, that way we can cover the 50 million who don't have coverage.

Private insurance would still be huge and still be around btw. And the reimbursement rates of the public plan would not be tied to medicare, but would be close to private insurance rates. It's why the AMA endorsed the bill.

Wow that's quite a trip to Canada! You didn't happen to be hanging out with Michael Moore over there did you?
 
BTW, here in Texas there are tons of businesses, the malls are crowded, most people get the procedures done that they need, there's tons of construction, (I drive through it everyday) and the Dentists are doing great. Oh yeah, and we for the most part oppose the healthcare bill and didn't take Obama's stimulus money!
 
[/B]

there was never any death panel! are you watching news or just following sarah palin on twitter?

Wrong. There is a provision in the house bill that REQUIRES senior citizens to undergo end of life counseling every 5 years. Obviously it is not termed death panel, but as far as Im concerned I dont want my dad undergoing "end of life counseling".


Lawmakers Confirm House Health Care Bill Promotes Euthanasia Among Elderly
by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
July 24, 2009



Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- Two Republican leaders in the House of Representatives are confirming reports that the health care restructuring bill the House is currently considering promotes euthanasia. A leading patients rights advocate is worried about the effects of the legislation.

Betsy McCaughey, the former New York lieutenant government who is now a patient's rights advocate, notes that the government-run health care plan would require "end of life" counseling for seniors.

The counseling, she says, would be focused on telling seniors how to end their lives sooner.

In a statement sent to LifeNews.com House Republican Leader John Boehner Republican Policy Committee Chairman Thaddeus McCotter confirm those fears.

"Section 1233 of the House-drafted legislation encourages health care providers to provide their Medicare patients with counseling on ‘the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration’ and other end of life treatments,'" the pair say.

That section "may place seniors in situations where they feel pressured to sign end of life directives they would not otherwise sign."

"This provision may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law. At a minimum this legislative language deserves a full and open public debate – the sort of debate that is impossible to have under the politically-driven deadlines Democratic leaders have arbitrarily set for enactment of a health care bill," they state.

The members of Congress call the section a throwback to 1977 when the old Department of Health Education and Welfare proposed federal promotion of living wills for cost-savings purposes described as "enormous."

At that time, the late Cardinal Joseph Bernardin of Chicago decried this effort by saying, "'The message is clear: government can save money by encouraging old people to die a little sooner than they otherwise would. Instead of being regarded with reverence, and cherished, human life is subject in this view to a utilitarian cost-benefit calculus and can be sacrificed to serve fiscal policy and the sacred imperative of trimming a budget."

Boehner and McCotter are especially concerned about the provision given that Oregon and Washington have legalized assisted suicide and Montana has given conditional approval depending on the outcome of a state Supreme Court decision.

“With three states having legalized physician-assisted suicide, this provision could create a slippery slope for a more permissive environment for euthanasia, mercy-killing and physician-assisted suicide because it does not clearly exclude counseling about the supposed benefits of killing oneself," they say.

"Health care reform that fails to protect the sanctity and dignity of all human life is not reform at all," the conclude.

In section 1233 of the tri-committee health care bill, a government-run "Advance Care Planning Consultation" is created.

McCaughey, in an interview with former presidential candidate Fred Thompson on his radio show warned people to "protect their parents" from the measure and said the consultation is essentially an attempt to kill off elderly Americans.

"One of the most shocking things is page 425, where the Congress would make it mandatory absolutely that every five years people in Medicare have a required counseling session," she said. "They will tell [them] how to end their life sooner.

The bill calls for the recommendation of "palliative care and hospice" in the mandatory counseling sessions, which is pain relief as patients die.

The House bill requires "an explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title."

The measure also recommends a discussion on "the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration," which suggests that elderly patients could be advised not to receive it, which would hasten death.









Say what you want, but just like the porkulus these crooks (dems and repubs) will hide plenty in this thing. The reps and senators and president do not have to participate either. Wonder why.
 
Straight from the bill:


11 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in
15
include indications respecting, among other items—
16 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
17 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
18 or pulmonary problems;

19 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
20 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set21
ting;
22 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
23 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri24
tion and hydration.’’.

VerDate Nov




And I wonder just who takes this information, and makes the decision whether to treat or provide "artificially administered nutrition and hydration".





I realize that sometimes you are going to spend a lot of money keeping someone alive, but I want to make that decision and have that option, not some bureaucrat.
 
No, I mean he got a copy the bill that the company paid...the company covered the entire birth, which was over $12k...I'm not saying that's not normal; I'm saying he was floored to see it was that expensive...

I'm not saying doctors and dentists don't deserve a healthy income for their hard work, which is why I said GOOD money. A nice home, nice car, sure...I agree they should make well-above the avg, but multiple multi-million $ homes is ridiculous...
Did he happen to mention that the German medical system likes both the mother and child to stay in the hospital for 5-7 days following the birth? I'm not saying that $12K is cheap but when you consider the length of time and nursing attention given in a weeks time, its not as severe as it would look if this were an American birth where both go home 24-48 hours following delivery (assuming no complications).
 
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Straight from the bill:


11 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in
15
include indications respecting, among other items—
16 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
17 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
18 or pulmonary problems;

19 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
20 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set21
ting;
22 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
23 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri24
tion and hydration.’’.

VerDate Nov




And I wonder just who takes this information, and makes the decision whether to treat or provide "artificially administered nutrition and hydration".





I realize that sometimes you are going to spend a lot of money keeping someone alive, but I want to make that decision and have that option, not some bureaucrat.



wow. you're a lunatic! i'll be damned if my dad gets ....COUNSELING! hahaha come on.


"And I wonder just who takes this information, and makes the decision whether to treat or provide "artificially administered nutrition and hydration". "

-well as of right now for most people, it's the insurance companies! hahaha
i guess its hard to see what life is like for most people from up there in the top income bracket.

anyways this thread has been off track quite enough since we're not talking about dentistry anymore. so i'm done here until its back on track.
 
Fox news IS a joke. My roommate is addicted to it and i lol every time i try to watch it.
 
BTW, here in Texas there are tons of businesses, the malls are crowded, most people get the procedures done that they need, there's tons of construction, (I drive through it everyday) and the Dentists are doing great. Oh yeah, and we for the most part oppose the healthcare bill and didn't take Obama's stimulus money!

That's great that all that oil money is doing something for Texas, but visit Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, parts of Florida, California, Arizona, Nevada, the northwest, and I think you'll see that people things aren't as rosy as you describe.
 
I think your dental degree failed to help you correctly define the term "fact."


If you think Ocean's asertation is true, I don't think you watch the news.

But hey, let the studies give us real "facts"

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-new-evidence-of-liberal-media-bias-november-a/

http://www.cmpa.com/pdf/media_monitor_jan_2009.pdf

You gotta love how liberals bash Fox news, the one lone TV outlet where conservatives have a voice. Their recent ratings makes it clear that the public is tired of the bias in the MSM. One news outlet alone beats 3 networks, CNN and MSNBC? Fox must be doing something right.
 
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Get off your high horse and realize that not everyone is dealt the same hand. Just as we all do not question paying for police protection, fire depts., court systems--even though we may never use it--so too, should we not question that healthcare is also something that people just might need. You still have your choice not to use it, but it will be there for those that need it...even those that don't earn the income of Hannity (or Obama).



What you're forgetting is how much this is going to cost. Obama has promised no taxes for the middle class. Tim Geithner alluded on TV last week that tax increases for everyone is a big possibility.
 
This is the future of Obama care...medical administrators will make treatment choices in place of the doctor. Old news but worth repeating: Oregon woman with lung cancer is on the state's universal coverage system. She is DENIED a life saving, but expensive drug, but granted euthanasia medicine. The Oregon state system denied coverage due to cost. Guess who ended up giving her the cancer medicine? The pharmaceutical company donated it to her!

Looks like rationing to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1


and the big question is WHERE'S THE TORT REFORM?

One possible answer:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/tort-reform-aids-health-lowers-cost-why-isnt-it-in-obamacare/
 
That's great that all that oil money is doing something for Texas, but visit Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, parts of Florida, California, Arizona, Nevada, the northwest, and I think you'll see that people things aren't as rosy as you describe.

You're practically making my point for me. California only has themselves to blame for their economic troubles. While I don't know much about the other states, I suspect it is the same.

I know that in order to bring about radical change, you have to paint a bleak picture of the current situation but cmon, let's stay in reality here. The reality is that MOST people are SATISFIED with their current health coverage.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low
 
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Straight from the bill:


11 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in
15
include indications respecting, among other items—
16 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
17 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
18 or pulmonary problems;

19 ‘‘(ii) the individual's desire regarding transfer
20 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set21
ting;
22 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
23 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri24
tion and hydration.''.

VerDate Nov




And I wonder just who takes this information, and makes the decision whether to treat or provide "artificially administered nutrition and hydration".





I realize that sometimes you are going to spend a lot of money keeping someone alive, but I want to make that decision and have that option, not some bureaucrat.

Pretty sure they ALREADY do this whenever a person is admitted into a hospital.

Also, in regards to the so called "Death Panel":

"The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning.

This was from the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators. The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill."

Yeah but THAT was for the terminally ill, not for healthy seniors. Then try this arcticle about healthy seniors:http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/169/5/480

Amazing how this can be so distorted by the very same people were for it before
 
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If you think Ocean's asertation is true, I don't think you watch the news.

But hey, let the studies give us real "facts"

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-new-evidence-of-liberal-media-bias-november-a/

http://www.cmpa.com/pdf/media_monitor_jan_2009.pdf

You gotta love how liberals bash Fox news, the one lone TV outlet where conservatives have a voice. Their recent ratings makes it clear that the public is tired of the bias in the MSM. One news outlet alone beats 3 networks, CNN and MSNBC? Fox must be doing something right.
a lot of people watch american idol too. doesn't mean it's a good news outlet.

I'm a conservative, and you have to be out of your mind to think that fox news is anything but ******ed.
 
a lot of people watch american idol too. doesn't mean it's a good news outlet.

I'm a conservative, and you have to be out of your mind to think that fox news is anything but ******ed.
What does that make CNN and wolfy?

Hillary11.jpg
 
a lot of people watch american idol too. Doesn't mean it's a good news outlet.

I'm a conservative, and you have to be out of your mind to think that fox news is anything but ******ed.

Excellent point. Like flies to you know what. Rest of us avoid it.
 
This is the future of Obama care...medical administrators will make treatment choices in place of the doctor. Old news but worth repeating: Oregon woman with lung cancer is on the state's universal coverage system. She is DENIED a life saving, but expensive drug, but granted euthanasia medicine. The Oregon state system denied coverage due to cost. Guess who ended up giving her the cancer medicine? The pharmaceutical company donated it to her!

Looks like rationing to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1


and the big question is WHERE'S THE TORT REFORM?

One possible answer:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/tort-reform-aids-health-lowers-cost-why-isnt-it-in-obamacare/

Oregon doesn't have universal healthcare, only Massachusetts does. Ignorance is the only reason why you would support Fox news. It's not 'conservative' it's only there to scare the crap out of people so they avoid what's in their best interest. Fox only works for big oil, health insurance and 'defense' companies. I can't believe how naive you are.
 
You're practically making my point for me. California only has themselves to blame for their economic troubles. While I don't know much about the other states, I suspect it is the same.

I know that in order to bring about radical change, you have to paint a bleak picture of the current situation but cmon, let's stay in reality here. The reality is that MOST people are SATISFIED with their current health coverage.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

So pretty much the entire country is in bad shape, and you're saying it's all the fault of the state governments? State governments that have to balance their budgets (unlike the federal gov) while providing health care, police, educational, and all the countless other services? What a joke.

And just because most people are 'satisfied' about their health coverage, does that mean the 50 million who have no coverage and 100 million who are underinsured mean nothing? That's like saying it's all right if a certain neighborhood or city is under a military attack, since most people in the rest of the state are 'safe.'
 
What does that make CNN and wolfy?

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Hillary11.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

i don't watch CNN and i have no idea what wolfy means.

Watching a news channel throughout the day is like watching your stocks throughout the day. It's going to piss you off and make you worry more hours of the day/week/month/year than you should.
 
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