Navy HPSP - Blue side vs Green

[Charlie0318]

Do you get a choice about serving green or blue as a Navy Doc or is it out of your control whether you are on a boat or not?

How do deployments differ with the two? I know blue side you will be on a boat most likely but green do you just deploy with the Marines you are with and for the same length of time?

Thank you in advanced for you time!

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[dru2002]

Do you get a choice about serving green or blue as a Navy Doc or is it out of your control whether you are on a boat or not?

How do deployments differ with the two? I know blue side you will be on a boat most likely but green do you just deploy with the Marines you are with and for the same length of time?

Thank you in advanced for you time!

As everything seems to be, it is the needs of the Navy. So you can request where you want to go but ultimately someone else decides. If you are a man and you want green-side you will most likely get it. If you go blue-side you will most likely be on a SHIP. I know its nitpicky but sailors draw the distinction and don't like it being it called a boat.

I will leave the deployments up to someone who has experienced both blue and green-side deployments, as I can only comment on green-side.

 

[Charlie0318]

As everything seems to be, it is the needs of the Navy. So you can request where you want to go but ultimately someone else decides. If you are a man and you want green-side you will most likely get it. If you go blue-side you will most likely be on a SHIP. I know its nitpicky but sailors draw the distinction and don't like it being it called a boat.

I will leave the deployments up to someone who has experienced both blue and green-side deployments, as I can only comment on green-side.

I would appreciate knowing what your green side experience was like. If I go Navy I will do all I can to go Green Side, nothing against the sailors on Ships.

 

[Charlie0318]

I am planning on going primary care (FP) for residency so I don't know if that changes anything.

Having spent more time reading around the forums it seems like a lot of navy HPSP folks get moved during their 4 years and don't spend the whole time just green or blue, but maybe I misunderstood some posts.

Anyone's insight is appreciated!

 

[HollywoodCole]

With each new set of orders, you will revisit the "opportunity" to go green or blue if you are being sent somewhere besides a large MTF. For instance, if you go back-back GMOs and get out (as seems to be the vogue on this forum these days), you could be a Marine GMO for two years and and then a ship GMO for two years. Green side billets tend to be more readily available for GMOs. Then, if you are still around after residency, you could be sent to either side again. Somtimes, the decision won't be up to you.

As for deployments, ships tend to have workup cycles where they go out for short cruises of 3-10 days before making a longer deployment of around 6 months. Typically, there will be one of these longer deployments every two years. You could expect some significant in port time depending on when during the deployment cycle you arrive. Usually, though, you should count on one long deployment and several short cruises. Of course, there are exceptions. Also, there are a dwindling number of ships that have intern trained GMOs. Carriers have already gone to residency trained FPs and now amphibs are starting to make the switch too. So going to the "blue side" may be something that only becomes an option for FPs after residency.

The green side also has a workup and deployment cycle, with most GMOs getting at least one 6 month deployment during a two year cycle. Depending on when you arrive, you could deploy twice. I have less knowledge of these deployment cycles.

Seriously, if you are a "man" you will go green side? There are too many GMOs (on every side-air, ground, sea) who think that trying to be a macho line officer is a good substiture for being good at their jobs. If choosing between two GMO spots, choose the one with more clinical upside and you will not go wrong. Sure, clinical upside may be a relative term in GMO-land, but there are some differences that become important. Above all, when you get there, MAKE it a clinical job.

 

[Perrotfish]

Seriously, if you are a "man" you will go green side?

I think you misread. I believe he meant that if you are male and want to work with the Marines you will likely get your requested GMO tour since those slots are not considered particularly desirable. On the other hand if you are female the odds might not be as overwhelmingly in your favor since some of the slots are gender-specific.

Also, while I don't have any more experience than anyone else who posted here, I thought that being assigned to a ship was an extremely small and coveted fraction of the available 'blueside' Navy GMO slots.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think you misread. I believe he meant that if you are male and want to work with the Marines you will likely get your requested GMO tour since those slots are not considered particularly desirable. On the other hand if you are female the odds might not be as overwhelmingly in your favor since some of the slots are gender-specific.

My take too. I think HollywoodCole may have done a weird read on the post.

 

[HollywoodCole]

I think you misread. I believe he meant that if you are male and want to work with the Marines you will likely get your requested GMO tour since those slots are not considered particularly desirable. On the other hand if you are female the odds might not be as overwhelmingly in your favor since some of the slots are gender-specific.

I may have mistaken what was meant in the post. If so, I apologize. There are certainly some examples of the point I was trying to make, though. Forgive my digression. The observation is correct that some Marine GMO billets are closed to female applicants, but I do know some female Marine GMOs. You will probably see less of them, though.

As for the non-ship, blue-side GMO billets, there aren't many that I am aware of for traditional internship trained GMOs. There are plenty of clinic billets at blue side commands, but these are typically reserved for second tour GMOs and residency trained physicians (as well as the standard array of IDCs, PAs, NPs). Sometimes, first tour GMOs may get stashed there temporarily while awaiting flight/dive school. Is anyone aware of another source of non-ship blue-side billets for first tour GMOs? I think its just ships, and by that I mean amphibs (LHDs, LPDs, LSDs).

As far as the size of the ship GMO community (for intern GMOs), there are 4 GMOs per ARG and we have around ten ARGs, so figure about 40 billets. Since they are two year billets, you should have around 20 billets open per year. Of course, if they continue to phase in FP trained physicans to these ships, then the number will fall. In the past few years, though, I think these are accurate numbers.

 

[dru2002]

I think you misread. I believe he meant that if you are male and want to work with the Marines you will likely get your requested GMO tour since those slots are not considered particularly desirable. On the other hand if you are female the odds might not be as overwhelmingly in your favor since some of the slots are gender-specific.

Also, while I don't have any more experience than anyone else who posted here, I thought that being assigned to a ship was an extremely small and coveted fraction of the available 'blueside' Navy GMO slots.

Exactly what I intended.

 

[USNOUMED]

Hey all, it's been awhile since I have been on this site. I remember as a medical student and intern seeking some helpful information on this forum, so now that I have some insight, I would like to give back.
I'll hit the highlights:
-Job Description - Bn Surgeon for USMC infantry Battalion.
Daily Routine - In Garrision: As Bn Surgeon, you are directly responsible to your CO for the medical readiness of his 1000 Marines. Your Medical Officer takes the majority of sick call, while you supervise Limited Duty, Dental, Pre and Post-deployment Health Assessments, ANAMs, PTP planning and operations. You will deploy to one of several training sites in VA, CA, AZ etc for 2 wks to 1 mo at a time. It truly does suck, but is necessary for both you and the Marines. As the Bn Surgeon, you are the administrative oversight to the command and essentially the spokesman for all things medical.
* Opinion: If you are competent and win the trust of your Command and Marines, they will be loyal and trust you beyond any patient/doctor relationship one can ever experience. Doors will open to you, if you are open-minded and you can experience many interesting and challenging endeavors. I previously read a post about "wherever you go, make it clinical." That is also a matter of opinion. While you have to be organized and professional, true green-side infantry medicine is as far from the "clinic" as you will ever get.
Daily Routine - Deployed setting: Ours was unique despite the 9 years of ongoing war. We deployed to Afghanistan in the spring/summer/fall of 2009. As a Bn, we increased our Area of Operations dramatically and as a result, supported 3 Forward Aid Stations or Trauma teams spread out over ~ 40 KM. My MO and myself were of the opinion that we place medical assets (providers and Corpsmen) at the company level and participated in air and ground movements to contact to provide immediate "provider level care." Everything you are taught in TCCC/C4 but thought you would never do, we did. Chest tubes, crics, GSW, Amputation, shock, etc was a part of our weekly duties. Again, I know this is not the norm, as many GMOs deployed at the same time were located on major Camps/FOBs and essentially running deployed sick call. Patient tracking, Concussion/mTBI management and local national care were also major components of our daily life. There was no electricity, running water, showers or A/C and life did suck for several months at a time but in the end, after you see Marines getting home to their families after serious injuries, it is all worth it.
* Opinion: GMO with an infantry unit in the USMC can be the best or worst experience of your life. If you are engaged, intelligent and can speak medical jargon in a lay manner that is not degrading and you exhibit competence, your Marines will surround you when things get rough. If you are an idiot, "above it all" and generally discontented with life, they will have as little to do with you as possible. It is not for everyone, however, some men get sent "green-side" b/c they are males and not all of them flourish. If you are interested, recognize that the non-sense is a part of this life and make the best of it, you will do great. Fostering a relationship with you 64 Corpsmen and Chiefs will pay dividends. If you train them as your own, support them and provide a good example, you'll see young men grow before your eyes in combat or not.
Again, I am back in Garrison, doing the daily admin, post-deployment checks. We had over 120 concussions in theatre and this is now a major part of my daily life. That is a whole other thread.
I hope this helped some of you choose to go green side and maybe some not to. I should be around more often now and would be happy to talk more about it as you all see fit.

Yut!

 

[Corpsman Up]

I would appreciate knowing what your green side experience was like. If I go Navy I will do all I can to go Green Side, nothing against the sailors on Ships.

I was a corpsman for six years, I served both blue and green side. If you want to practice medicine, I would recommend doing everything you can to NOT GO GREEN SIDE! The docs on green side really dont do anything except sign medical records and occassionally see patients during sick-call. The IDC's and corpsman do everything else.

When on deployments, its the same thing. Any major casualties go directly to a surgical company, to the batallion medical officer doesnt even see them.

From my understanding, the Navy is trying to place more PA's in the roles of batallion surgeons so that it will not push off residency for new docs. Im not sure how green side medicine will be after this, but I have heard that some board certified docs may be sent to a batallion, which angers a lot of people

 

[Teufelhunden]

There are too many GMOs (on every side-air, ground, sea) who think that trying to be a macho line officer is a good substitute for being good at their jobs.

You are preaching the truth, brother. I'm typing this from a tent in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. (Only 3 days left of a 224-day deployment...yay!) Anyway, I have seen this quite a bit. The Marines generally don't know a good doctor from a bad one, and will often like the docs that act very "Ooh rah" and try to -- essentially -- act like Marine Officers.

I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, as I'm sure there are some "moto" docs who are also great clinicians. I guess I just don't see the necessity of it. I think some docs with the Marines get a bit of identity confusion and forget that they're doctors. Heck, most of the GMOs have only been doctors for a year, so I understand the basis of this. Doctors, by nature of all their schooling, tend to want to make their teachers/professors/attendings happy, and this conformist nature probably bleeds into their GMO tours. The only difference is: generally, your professors/attendings will be happy with you when you do something right, and disappointed when you do something wrong.

With the line leadership (green or blue side), you may have to get used to your boss being displeased with you when you do the right thing, and happy with you when you do the wrong thing. It can be a tough predicament, and no one really prepares you for it.

I'm a former Marine, so I can kind of see both sides of this, and was a little more prepared than most for this type of tour. I think military GME needs to do a better job of preparing its docs for this quandary.

 

[NavyCy]

Is anyone aware of another source of non-ship blue-side billets for first tour GMOs? I think its just ships, and by that I mean amphibs (LHDs, LPDs, LSDs).

I know all the destroyer squadrons have a doctor assigned to oversee the IDCs and I think there are 15 or 16 DESRONS. Our doc tried to stay where ever the majority of the ships were located. If they were inport, he was inport. If we were all at sea, he'd rotate from ship to ship (depending on who was going to the most interesting place). I guess it really isn't a shipboard billet, but he was still at sea a fair amount of time. By the way, when he left the squadron to go to residency, his replacement was board certified FP. I don't know if that is a trend or not since I can only speak for one DESRON.

Does anyone know who oversees the CG IDC? I know the CGs work for the CTF, but I've never noticed whether the CTF has a fairly junior GMO or a more senior GMO.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I know all the destroyer squadrons have a doctor assigned to oversee the IDCs and I think there are 15 or 16 DESRONS. Our doc tried to stay where ever the majority of the ships were located. If they were inport, he was inport. If we were all at sea, he'd rotate from ship to ship (depending on who was going to the most interesting place). I guess it really isn't a shipboard billet, but he was still at sea a fair amount of time. By the way, when he left the squadron to go to residency, his replacement was board certified FP. I don't know if that is a trend or not since I can only speak for one DESRON.

Does anyone know who oversees the CG IDC? I know the CGs work for the CTF, but I've never noticed whether the CTF has a fairly junior GMO or a more senior GMO.

Same people. RSO. Usually a second tour GMO looking to slide until he gets out to go be a dermatologist or something.

As for the HM who said to avoid the greenside, that gets the big whatever from me. The shipboard MO has plenty of corpsmen to see patients too. In either place, the trick is to be able to wade through the BS (PFPS, IBS, fakers, URIs) and find the sick people. A MO on either side who thinks the HMs can do this without supervision is a bad outcome waiting to happen. Blue or green, you need to be accessible and around so that you can catch that pt who needs your help. You can walk down the row of waiting patients and see that guy who is actually dyspneic. This isn't a blue versus green thing, this is a lazy versus responsible GMO thing.

Blue versus green: Blue side is going to give you more money but you have to deal with SWOs (which is painful, no one has done less for the war effort over the last decade and yet feels more self important than a SWO LCDR). Green side is going to make you beg, borrow and steal for your supplies but they will love you if you just show up, give a sh(t and get a haircut. I know which of these I prefer.

 

[NavyCy]

no one has done less for the war effort over the last decade and yet feels more self important than a SWO LCDR.

It is disappointing to me that you view SWOs like this. I We clearly do not fill the same high profile roles as some of the other communities, but I don't think its fair to diminish or dismiss our contribution. Without all the the various communities, the Navy would not function as intended.

The aviators and Marines have been providing most of the firepower in the past few years, but none of those aviation missions happen without SWOs operating the CVN and her escorts, and the Marines don't make it to the ground with without SWOs operating the ARG. I could go on, but you get the point. You obviously interacted with an arrogant jerk who happened to be a SWO, but I'm certain that those exist in every community.

Sir, if I've misconstrued your opinion, I apologize, but I've spent a lot of time away from my family in the past 5 years carrying out the assignments I was given and I like to think that the time spent wasn't wasted. If there is anything I can do to improve your outlook on the community as a whole, please feel free to contact me.

 

[Jet915]

For someone who is in a green side billet, I'd say marines are less "difficult" patient wise compared to sailors. There are bad eggs in every branch, but marines tend to follow your orders better and don't give you s*it. This is anecdotal of course...

 

[Gastrapathy]

It is disappointing to me that you view SWOs like this. I We clearly do not fill the same high profile roles as some of the other communities, but I don't think its fair to diminish or dismiss our contribution. Without all the the various communities, the Navy would not function as intended.

The aviators and Marines have been providing most of the firepower in the past few years, but none of those aviation missions happen without SWOs operating the CVN and her escorts, and the Marines don't make it to the ground with without SWOs operating the ARG. I could go on, but you get the point. You obviously interacted with an arrogant jerk who happened to be a SWO, but I'm certain that those exist in every community.

Sir, if I've misconstrued your opinion, I apologize, but I've spent a lot of time away from my family in the past 5 years carrying out the assignments I was given and I like to think that the time spent wasn't wasted. If there is anything I can do to improve your outlook on the community as a whole, please feel free to contact me.

More snide than I meant. I apologize. Let me try to elaborate. We've been at war for a decade. Yet, if a junior SWO wants to participate in the war effort (AfPak Hands, IA, small boat stuff), it is a career killer because it takes them off the standard track. The SWO community puts no value in anything other than their traditional career track. Frankly, that just hasn't been that relevant (a supporting role, at best). Yet, culturally, there tends to be a self-importance about the way SWOs interact with other officers and with their juniors. SWO JOs are a miserable lot.

The ARG has been the exception to the rule for Marine deployments over the past decade. And its not like the surface Navy provides any priority to the amphib mission. Those ships are falling apart and SWOs are so anti-amphib its incredible (I'd bet a bonus check that you were told to avoid the amphibs and go crudes by at least one senior SWO). I believe that decades of driving ships in a non-combat environment has created a risk-averse, non-combat style of ship driver that is more concerned with paperwork, stoplight charts and appearances than with the war. OK, off my soapbox. But this wasn't about an interaction with a single SWO.

 

[NavyCy]

More snide than I meant. I apologize. Let me try to elaborate. We've been at war for a decade. Yet, if a junior SWO wants to participate in the war effort (AfPak Hands, IA, small boat stuff), it is a career killer because it takes them off the standard track. The SWO community puts no value in anything other than their traditional career track. Frankly, that just hasn't been that relevant (a supporting role, at best). Yet, culturally, there tends to be a self-importance about the way SWOs interact with other officers and with their juniors. SWO JOs are a miserable lot.

The ARG has been the exception to the rule for Marine deployments over the past decade. And its not like the surface Navy provides any priority to the amphib mission. Those ships are falling apart and SWOs are so anti-amphib its incredible (I'd bet a bonus check that you were told to avoid the amphibs and go crudes by at least one senior SWO). I believe that decades of driving ships in a non-combat environment has created a risk-averse, non-combat style of ship driver that is more concerned with paperwork, stoplight charts and appearances than with the war. OK, off my soapbox. But this wasn't about an interaction with a single SWO.

There is a lot of truth in what you wrote. As far as amphibs go, you are exactly right. There are some good reasons for that and some bad reasons. For example, it is very difficult to teach a JO how to fight a ship (or even how to handle a ship) on a ship with limited speed, no maneuverability and very few weapons. Its kind of like teaching someone to drive with a bus. Also the biggest threats to a CVN are from the air and from subs and amphibs can't really perform ASW or AD. By the way you'll find a similar bias against SWOs (non-NUC) going to CVNs for many of the same reasons. That being said, there are a lot of BS reasons to avoid amphibs that get put out too and a lot of officers who tell you to avoid amphibs because that is what they were taught. Its too bad really because there are amphib missions that would be beneficial for junior SWOs to learn that they will never see in crudes.

I wasn't really looking for an apology, but I appreciate the sentiment. I know many forms of communication do not translate well over the internet, so I assumed I was misunderstanding you. I answered your post mainly to make the point that there are SWOs who are happy with their community. Its a tough life, but I think some of those JOs are miserable because they choose to be miserable. A lot of Junior SWOs are coming to the fleet with a chip on their shoulder. No one shows up the Academy or ROTC saying "I want anything but SWO." They are being taught that sentiment in school by their military instructors. Its a self replicating cycle. Many will discover that SW isn't for them and that is fine, but I'd like to see them make that decision while they are on a ship instead of before they come to the ship.

Anyway, Gastrapathy, you just happened to walk into one of the issues in the community that I care deeply about. Please don't think I'm trying to attack you because I'm not.