NEED ADVICE: On choosing a school

[wengerout]

Well ok, if it's demonstrably false then show us the data to back up what you're saying. Personal anecdotes don't really have any value. For any students that are really looking into this, easy way to find out for yourselves
- call OMFS residencies and ask
- call local OMFS and ask
- go on dental town where you can ask a bunch of them at once

The data is the specialization rates at these respective schools which you can find on their websites.


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[wengerout]

So...that’s OMFS and I have already conceded elsewhere that a med curriculum does help with the CBSE. Is that help worth potentially $200,000? Doubtful. Remember there are several other specialties, though that fact is often lost on SDN. How about ortho, pros, endo, peds, and perio? What advantage do you have there? I argue you don’t have one. The fact that so many go on to specialty residencies from the “prestigious” schools is simply the proportion of the class applying. My friend said more than a third of his class at Columbia applied to OMFS, while around 5% of my public school class did. I’d also bet our Match rates were just as competitive: 100% ortho, 75% OMFS, 100% peds, 100% perio, 100% pros, and 66% endo. Let’s also not forget that many specialty residencies charge a ton of tuition. Going to UPenn for dental school and ortho residency would put you around $800,000 in debt. That’s ridiculous! Save money wherever you can.

Big Hoss

It’s up to the person paying honestly on whether it’s worth the advantage. I have several classmates who thought it was and are well on their way to becoming surgeons. On the flip side I’m sure there are a few people who turned down the offer who will end up becoming surgeons regardless. Still, I’m sure there are also others who will attempt at a state school but fall short that could have done it from here. I’m sure a good amount of your class (anyone in the bottom 75%) didn’t even bother to apply for OS because they knew for a fact they wouldn’t get it.

I agree with you for some of the other specialties it’s not nearly as worth it, and it’s not worth it all for Ortho IMO.

Still, then you have the people like me who for other reasons picked a more expensive school lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯




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[princeafrica]

lol some people will talk about "serving the underserved" communities in their app, then go to the most expensive school in the country, then practice in high income suburbs to pay off their loans and by the time they retire they served the overserved

 

[Life of Pablo]

Nevertheless, graduating with more debt because of a leg up on specializing is probably not worth it. If you're smart enough to specialize, you can do so from ANY dental school. I have visited a number of OMFS programs, and these programs have residents who graduated from expensive prestigious schools as well as residents who graduated from much cheaper schools. Same residency....Big difference in Loan Balances.

You’re just seeing the ones that made it. I’m sure there are tons of people who went to a state school, realized they couldn’t keep their class rank high enough, and stopped pursuing a specialty. I’m not saying you can’t specialize from a state school; I’m saying it’s more difficult. You have to decide for yourself if it’s worth it to pay more for schooling in order to increase your chances. People on SDN shouldn’t be ostracized for choosing a school they believe will help them accomplish their career goals - whatever those goals may be.

 

[Blackca3]

The data is the specialization rates at these respective schools which you can find on their websites.


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Numbers alone don't tell the whole story. Do you have a study? Just as an example of misleading numbers ,my school reports that students graduate with an average debt of $250k. That's not even enough to cover the tuition. I am open minded and more than willing to change my view if you can back up what your saying with a primary and secodary source.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I’m not saying you can’t specialize from a state school; I’m saying it’s more difficult.

A true gunner doesn’t shy away from a little healthy competition. They embrace it.

Big Hoss

 

[deleted678432]

lol some people will talk about "serving the underserved" communities in their app, then go to the most expensive school in the country, then practice in high income suburbs to pay off their loans and by the time they retire they served the overserved

Hey man rich people have teeth too

 

[2TH MVR]

lol some people will talk about "serving the underserved" communities in their app, then go to the most expensive school in the country, then practice in high income suburbs to pay off their loans and by the time they retire they served the overserved

News alert. Most of the saturation is in the high income suburbs.

 

[wengerout]

lol some people will talk about "serving the underserved" communities in their app, then go to the most expensive school in the country, then practice in high income suburbs to pay off their loans and by the time they retire they served the overserved

There's undeserved people everywhere. Plus new grads make more money working in rural areas with less dentist.

 

[wengerout]

A true gunner doesn’t shy away from a little healthy competition. They embrace it.

View attachment 240547

Big Hoss

Lol I think the idea is to be able to specialize without being a gunner.

 

[Charcot-Marie-Tooth]

I understand what you are saying, but I have a serious question about this. I have interviewed at my state school and 2 OOS state schools. The OOS school is my number 1 choice as of right now. They teach implants (prep and placement), start clinic your second year instead of third, 1 of 5 schools that have an intraoral scanner, and the only school in the nation that can perform same day crowns (4 hours or less to be exact). They also have a 600+ patient waiting list and there are 4-5 office workers that recruit the patients for you. The Dean told us he had a D4 perform his crown last year and he was in and out in 2 hours and 10 minutes. They still teach you the traditional method of crown procedures just FYI. The OOS state is very clinical based as you can tell. The tuition difference is around 160k. My state school is obviously cheaper, they do not teach you implants, do not have a scanner, start clinic your third year, and you have to go out and recruit your own patients. Would you still choose the state school based solely on tuition costs?

Compounding interest... Remember those two words... Just think about that... You'll find your answer... Also, think of how much CE you could do with that extra $160K lol

 

[doktorinprogres]

Numbers alone don't tell the whole story. Do you have a study? Just as an example of misleading numbers ,my school reports that students graduate with an average debt of $250k. That's not even enough to cover the tuition. I am open minded and more than willing to change my view if you can back up what your saying with a primary and secodary source.

How about logic? If you apply to OMFS there are two things they look at first and foremost

Class Rank and CBSE score.

Then they examine letters of rec, externships, research projects related to the field etc.

So you go to a school with no ranks. You just eliminated a criterion that would otherwise have been used to weed you out. If you're the most brilliant kid in your class and blessed with naturally good hands you would likely find a benefit by being at a ranked school and having that #1 in your application. If you are not that you're risking your application being affected.

So now you get to spend your limited time divided into 3-4 things listed above instead of the 5. Of those 3-4 things if your school has a medical curriculum you just saved yourself a good bit of stress and time outside of class studying a whole separate curriculum on top of your classes for the CBSE. You don't think you could present a better case for yourself with a more concentrated approach rather than being spread out among all those things? I don't see how this is even a debate when it comes to OMFS.

You can ask is it "worth the money" but I don't see an argument for how it isn't exponentially easier to do things from a prestigious school without ranks.

There's a lot of ppl who can match into pedo or perio or endo by being in the top 25%-50% in the class. For people who end up with those specialties it's questionable whether the schools we're discussing are worth it at a much greater cost. The worst thing to happen to you would be to go to a very expensive school and then decide to be a general dentist. That would wreck the cost-benefit analysis

 

[Blackca3]

How about logic? If you apply to OMFS there are two things they look at first and foremost

Class Rank and CBSE score.

Then they examine letters of rec, externships, research projects related to the field etc.

So you go to a school with no ranks. You just eliminated a criterion that would otherwise have been used to weed you out. If you're the most brilliant kid in your class and blessed with naturally good hands you would likely find a benefit by being at a ranked school and having that #1 in your application. If you are not that you're risking your application being affected.

So now you get to spend your limited time divided into 3-4 things listed above instead of the 5. Of those 3-4 things if your school has a medical curriculum you just saved yourself a good bit of stress and time outside of class studying a whole separate curriculum on top of your classes for the CBSE. You don't think you could present a better case for yourself with a more concentrated approach rather than being spread out among all those things? I don't see how this is even a debate when it comes to OMFS.

You can ask is it "worth the money" but I don't see an argument for how it isn't exponentially easier to do things from a prestigious school without ranks.

There's a lot of ppl who can match into pedo or perio or endo by being in the top 25%-50% in the class. For people who end up with those specialties it's questionable whether the schools we're discussing are worth it at a much greater cost. The worst thing to happen to you would be to go to a very expensive school and then decide to be a general dentist. That would wreck the cost-benefit analysis

I'm sorry but logic tells me that you have no clue what you're talking about because you aren't even a dental student and have likely never talked to any OMFS residencies directors or residents about what they are looking for. If you are capable of learning and doing well in a med school based curriculum then you are still capable of learning and doing it on your own without spending a few extra $100k. The stress of doing some extra studying will be significantly less versus paying back several hundred to half a million more than you had to.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process that when admissions is comparing two candidates that are exactly same on paper except one went to a P/F program that they are going to automatically pick the P/F person. Do you think this is some hidden loop hole, that admissions couldn't possibly conceive the fact they might not have done as well as someone who went to a school with ranks.

I worked along side 4 Ivey league kids when I worked for Amazon in San Francisco. They were terrible and were all promoted out within 4 months. They had no people skills, couldn't communicate, and lacked basic problem solving skills. Grades/School do not equal real world skils/success. Nobody cares what schools you went to. The reason so many of you have trouble understanding this is because the vast majority of you are kids who don't know any better and have no real world experience. Do not take anecdotal advice from other kids on this forum. Go straight to the source and ask the professionals who work in the profession It is too easy to pick up the phone and call these residency programs and ask them these detailed questions. Their phones numbers are listed on their residency sites.

 

[doktorinprogres]

I have a hard time understanding the thought process that when admissions is comparing two candidates that are exactly same on paper except one went to a P/F program that they are going to automatically pick the P/F person. Do you think this is some hidden loop hole, that admissions couldn't possibly conceive the fact they might not have done as well as someone who went to a school with ranks.

I worked along side 4 Ivey league kids when I worked for Amazon in San Francisco. They were terrible and were all promoted out within 4 months. They had no people skills, couldn't communicate, and lacked basic problem solving skills. Grades/School do not equal real world skils/success. Nobody cares what schools you went to. The reason so many of you have trouble understanding this is because the vast majority of you are kids who don't know any better and have no real world experience. Do not take anecdotal advice from other kids on this forum. Go straight to the source and ask the professionals who work in the profession It is too easy to pick up the phone and call these residency programs and ask them these detailed questions. Their phones numbers are listed on their residency sites.

You assume a lot about a stranger. That's besides the point but it's good to reason based on the argument rather than the perceived standing of the individual.

It seems that the stress of competing against 50-to whatever nyu's class size is isn't something that would affect you. Or maybe you are that brilliant student. It's not a hidden loop hole. Its just the admissions committee has no clue if that applicant did well or poorly compared to the other kids in their class. They might not have done as well as a kid who had ranks.

If we're an admissions committee and a student from your average decent state school is top 5% of their class with a 80 CBSE and comparable extras perhaps we take that person over the unknown performance of the P/F student with the same CBSE score and comparable extras. But the kid with a low class rank with an 80 will have a much harder shot against the student with P/80. Admissions is not dumb but this is the reality of what info they have to work with. Your point about Ivy league kids is exactly the point. They don't necessarily have some special breed of person yet they send a much higher amount to OMFS. I'd be open to learning why you find it unbelievable that it's easier done (not easy) at those kinds of schools? Again I'm not suggesting it can't be done elsewhere or that the quality of student differs. Just that its easier and that peace of mind that rank/gpa will not factor into your ability to make it (other things can screw this up) can be worth the choice to go to such schools.

Also what are OMFS residency directors looking for?
I suggest it's CBSE and Rank first, LOR externshp experience, and then a candidate who is unafraid of work, genuinely interested in the field, will represent their program well, and become a hassle-free member of the team.

I'd think a resident would want a new resident joining them to not be a jackass, work hard and never pass the buck, ideally chill enough that they'd gain a new friend. If I'm grossly misinformed please enlighten me.

Finally, in today's world pre-dent doesn't mean clueless kid. Depending on how long you worked there's a decent chance I'm older than you. Regardless of age though life experience can come in a lot of different ways. I'd hope your knowledge of "real world skills/success" would inform you to respect others whether they write pre-dent, dental student, PGY3, attending, or bumbling clown in the signature area. If you are really really old though then I totally respect the whole "kids these days" "get off my lawn" attitude.

 

[Blackca3]

I'm not assuming your age but I did make the assumption that you don't have actual experience of what your stating based on your signature. If I'm wrong I apologize. For the most part pre-dent does mean clueless bumbling kid. If you're coming straight out of undergrad you really don't know anything because you have no real life experiences and most likely haven't functioned independently yet. There are tons of kids on here that try to pass off anecdotal experience as fact and these have wide ranging negative impacts on others. Majority of them don't understand the value of money because they haven't had an opportunity to experience exchanging their time, labor, and stress for a certain amount of value. Once they graduate and start working and are able to see a correlation between how much of there labor, time, and stress equates to how many dollars they will likely come to the conclusion that they would have had a better opportunity cost if they had gone to the cheaper school and traded some of their free time then.

My point is successful individuals find a way to be successful wherever they go. Those schools likely send more people to whatever residency because they have more people that want to go to those residencies. It's probably more accurate to compare percentage of people who applied to whatever residency versus those who got in. Not everyone wants to be an oral surgeon. 6 more years of schools working 70-80 hours a week sounds miserable to a lot of people. I went into dentistry to get away from that.

I'm not going to give my opinion on what residencies are looking for because each program will vary and people should educate themselves with first hand knowledge instead of anecdotal experience from an internet stranger. That is the path to success. Trust if you want but verify that information. It's too easy to make informed secured decisions these days.

 

[Life of Pablo]

My point is successful individuals find a way to be successful wherever they go. Those schools likely send more people to whatever residency because they have more people that want to go to those residencies.

Penn matched 25/27 into Ortho last year. That's over 20% of the class! Also, keep in mind that those 20% probably weren't all at the very top of the class. Are you telling me that if 27 people form a state school applied, they'd have similar numbers (and I'm not talking about UCLA/UCSF)? There's just no way.

All I know is that I have friends at state schools who are very smart people, and many of them entered dental school with the intent of specializing. However, only a few months into school and a majority of them have already dropped the idea of specializing because they are unable to maintain a competitive class rank.

 

[2TH MVR]

Penn matched 25/27 into Ortho last year. That's over 20% of the class! Also, keep in mind that those 20% probably weren't all at the very top of the class. Are you telling me that if 27 people form a state school applied, they'd have similar numbers (and I'm not talking about UCLA/UCSF)? There's just no way.

All I know is that I have friends at state schools who are very smart people, and many of them entered dental school with the intent of specializing. However, only a few months into school and a majority of them have already dropped the idea of specializing because they are unable to maintain a competitive class rank.

Not discounting what you are saying, but I went to a cheap state school with ranking where 4/4 out of a class of 53 successfully went to a CHEAP or stipend paying ortho residency. Granted there was no match system in place when I attended ortho residency. All of us graduated from undergrad, DS and ortho residency with less than 100K of debt.

25/27? Expensive DS. Probably as expensive ortho residency. Sounds like mills turning out too many orthodontists with huge debt.

 

[Life of Pablo]

Not discounting what you are saying, but I went to a cheap state school with ranking where 4/4 out of a class of 53 successfully went to a CHEAP or stipend paying ortho residency. Granted there was no match system in place when I attended ortho residency. All of us graduated from undergrad, DS and ortho residency with less than 100K of debt.

25/27? Expensive DS. Probably as expensive ortho residency. Sounds like mills turning out too many orthodontists with huge debt.

Again, a majority of my classmates were given a scholarship ranging between 10k-40k a year. Therefore, it really isn’t much more expensive than a lot of other schools. Also, there are 60 people on HPSP at Penn (probably the most in the country). Although Penn is expensive, a lot of us aren’t paying the full price.

People like to assume that if you go to an ivy, it means you’re paying wayyyy more than what you would at your state school. That can’t be further from the truth.

 

[deleted920649]

Random question here. Can anyone confirm to me whether UCSF exercises a pure P/F grading system, specifically for the didactic portion of their curriculum? I know their clinical curriculum is conducted in H/P/F.