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frenchpotato

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In case you have not heard, a new orthodontic residency starts in Atlanta this summer, 2016.

Hearing very good things about state of the art equipment, clinic, and teaching facilities.
Only American Board of Orthodontic, board certified instructors.
Atlanta is a great city to live in.
There is still time to apply.

http://www.gaorthodontics.org/

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Members don't see this ad :)
18 residents a year for a new program seems like a lot of residents. How do we know that residents won't just end up having to teach each other in this program?


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18 residents a year for a new program seems like a lot of residents. How do we know that residents won't just end up having to teach each other in this program?


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CODA sets the student teacher ratio for accreditation.
 
same guy that started Jacksonville, Colorado, and was it Las Vegas - guess he hasn't hurt the specialty enough yet
 
Do you definitely need a Georgia License to attend?
 
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My answer to this negativity would be to apply, come for an interview, meet chairman, director, and faculty and make your own decision if you get an offer.
 
My answer to this negativity would be to apply, come for an interview, meet chairman, director, and faculty and make your own decision if you get an offer.

Which one are you? ;)
 
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Definitely hands down.

Whether or not you'll be a successful orthodontist after doing your 3 years through this diploma mill is another question.


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Ortho is number one job according to US News and World Report.

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-best-jobs
The ranking by US News and world report are garbage, especially the list of "best jobs by income." There is no way in heck that the average 'surgeon' or anesthesiologist make more than the average OMS, not even close. Based off the low levels of stress, mentally and physically, combined with the excellent salary, ortho guys probably are #1. However most docs (like myself) would fall to sleep from the sheer boredom and repetitive nature of the field, so it's definitely not #1 in terms of scope of work. After a few years of doing this I don't see how ortho guys can do anything but look forward to the paycheck.
 
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same guy that started Jacksonville, Colorado, and was it Las Vegas - guess he hasn't hurt the specialty enough yet
Hey, may I ask who is this guy and what happened in Jacksonville, Colorado, and Las Vegas ?
I am really considering applying for this program.
Thanks
 
Hey, may I ask who is this guy and what happened in Jacksonville, Colorado, and Las Vegas ?
I am really considering applying for this program.
Thanks
In a nutshell, JU, UNLV and Colorado started as tuition free and payed a stipend. The funding for this model failed and the students then had to pay tuition. All three programs graduated the students and have remained accredited programs. The Georgia School of Orthodontics is a different financial model. Residents pay tuition. It was the financial model that failed, not the three above residencies. Of course some of the residents who were at these programs when the money went away are very bitter, but they are practicing orthodontists.
 
if that guy was smart, he would have put his money in real estate instead of ruining the profession.

how can people justify paying that tuition
 
if that guy was smart, he would have put his money in real estate instead of ruining the profession.

how can people justify paying that tuition

You heard it stated above didn't you? Being an orthodontist is the #1 occupation in America! The president of the American Association of Orthodontists isn't worried about student debt so neither should you!

In fact in the article he recommends that you should just focus on working for DSOs upon graduation because they will handle all the icky business aspects of being an orthodontist.


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In a nutshell, JU, UNLV and Colorado started as tuition free and payed a stipend. The funding for this model failed and the students then had to pay tuition. All three programs graduated the students and have remained accredited programs. The Georgia School of Orthodontics is a different financial model. Residents pay tuition. It was the financial model that failed, not the three above residencies. Of course some of the residents who were at these programs when the money went away are very bitter, but they are practicing orthodontists.

So what's to prevent Lazzara from pulling the plug on the program after say 2 years? It's not affiliated with any University institution? He's been more than willing to walk away from his "promises" in the past.


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I wouldn't be worried about him walking away from this one. I'm more worried about how many more he would like to open and how much bigger they will be.
 
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The ranking by US News and world report are garbage, especially the list of "best jobs by income." There is no way in heck that the average 'surgeon' or anesthesiologist make more than the average OMS, not even close. Based off the low levels of stress, mentally and physically, combined with the excellent salary, ortho guys probably are #1. However most docs (like myself) would fall to sleep from the sheer boredom and repetitive nature of the field, so it's definitely not #1 in terms of scope of work. After a few years of doing this I don't see how ortho guys can do anything but look forward to the paycheck.
Working P/T at a busy corporate office has allowed me to meet and talk to a lot of GPs. After working for many years, many of them have expressed their negative feelings toward dentistry such as dealing with unrealistic expectations from PITA patients, dental phobic patients, back problem, lousy insurance plans that pay very little etc...and they wish they can do ortho like me. IMO, repetitiveness in ortho is what makes ortho the greatest job in the world. When you do the same things every day, your job becomes easy and stress-free. When you treat the same ortho problems and see the same complications every day, you can easily deal with them. There are very few new unforseeable complications, which can ruin your day and cause you to lose sleep at night. Repetitiveness in ortho also makes it easier for the doctor to give instructions to his clinical staff. The doctor just writes down a few words on the chart and his assistants can complete the procedure for him. The doctor's time spent on each patient can be as little as 1-2 minutes. That's how an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day and he can save a lot in overhead for not having to hire an associate. Being able to see high volume of patients in a day allows an orthodontist to work fewer days in a month. I know an ortho who scheduled a lot of patients in one day and worked 25 days (including Saturdays and Sundays) straight. And then he took a month long vacation with his family....no loss in income. I don't think a GP or other specialists can do that and risk losing a lot of patients.

Every cloud has a silver lining. More new ortho programs opening mean there will be more programs for my son to apply to in the future if he wishes to become an orthodontist. Ortho is indeed the best job. Who wouldn't want their kids to look good and have straight teeth? Be honest, do good work, take good care of your patients, charge reasonable fee, be nice to your referring GPs, don't listen to the sale reps and buy a bunch of expensive gadgets, and you will do fine.
 
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I wouldn't be worried about him walking away from this one. I'm more worried about how many more he would like to open and how much bigger they will be.
I think i myself might want to open me up an ortho residency
 
Orthos are a bunch of crybabies. Get over it. You have a good, clean, easy job. With all the new technology coming out, your job is even easier. Stop your whining. Dermatologists have it much harder than you guys and they dont whine anywhere as much as you guys do.
 
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Working P/T at a busy corporate office has allowed me to meet and talk to a lot of GPs. After working for many years, many of them have expressed their negative feelings toward dentistry such as dealing with unrealistic expectations from PITA patients, dental phobic patients, back problem, lousy insurance plans that pay very little etc...and they wish they can do ortho like me. IMO, repetitiveness in ortho is what makes ortho the greatest job in the world. When you do the same things every day, your job becomes easy and stress-free. When you treat the same ortho problems and see the same complications every day, you can easily deal with them. There are very few new unforseeable complications, which can ruin your day and cause you to lose sleep at night. Repetitiveness in ortho also makes it easier for the doctor to give instructions to his clinical staff. The doctor just writes down a few words on the chart and his assistants can complete the procedure for him. The doctor's time spent on each patient can be as little as 1-2 minutes. That's how an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day and he can save a lot in overhead for not having to hire an associate. Being able to see high volume of patients in a day allows an orthodontist to work fewer days in a month. I know an ortho who scheduled a lot of patients in one day and worked 25 days (including Saturdays and Sundays) straight. And then he took a month long vacation with his family....no loss in income. I don't think a GP or other specialists can do that and risk losing a lot of patients.

Every cloud has a silver lining. More new ortho programs opening mean there will be more programs for my son to apply to in the future if he wishes to become an orthodontist. Ortho is indeed the best job. Who wouldn't want their kids to look good and have straight teeth? Be honest, do good work, take good care of your patients, charge reasonable fee, be nice to your referring GPs, don't listen to the sale reps and buy a bunch of expensive gadgets, and you will do fine.
Sure, I agree with alot of what you say when you are comparing ortho to general dentistry. However in the end it is a personal decision about how much one enjoys being challenged in their work environment. Some crave the stress and high tempo when they are young and are okay with the repetitiveness perhaps later in life when family is a factor. That is why oral surgery is perfect for me. I can enjoy the craziness of residency and maybe a few years of working in a hospital, while eventually settling down in a practice to do some teeth and titanium all day when I'm older and have 3-4 kids.
 
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Working P/T at a busy corporate office has allowed me to meet and talk to a lot of GPs. After working for many years, many of them have expressed their negative feelings toward dentistry such as dealing with unrealistic expectations from PITA patients, dental phobic patients, back problem, lousy insurance plans that pay very little etc...and they wish they can do ortho like me. IMO, repetitiveness in ortho is what makes ortho the greatest job in the world. When you do the same things every day, your job becomes easy and stress-free. When you treat the same ortho problems and see the same complications every day, you can easily deal with them. There are very few new unforseeable complications, which can ruin your day and cause you to lose sleep at night. Repetitiveness in ortho also makes it easier for the doctor to give instructions to his clinical staff. The doctor just writes down a few words on the chart and his assistants can complete the procedure for him. The doctor's time spent on each patient can be as little as 1-2 minutes. That's how an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day and he can save a lot in overhead for not having to hire an associate. Being able to see high volume of patients in a day allows an orthodontist to work fewer days in a month. I know an ortho who scheduled a lot of patients in one day and worked 25 days (including Saturdays and Sundays) straight. And then he took a month long vacation with his family....no loss in income. I don't think a GP or other specialists can do that and risk losing a lot of patients.

Every cloud has a silver lining. More new ortho programs opening mean there will be more programs for my son to apply to in the future if he wishes to become an orthodontist. Ortho is indeed the best job. Who wouldn't want their kids to look good and have straight teeth? Be honest, do good work, take good care of your patients, charge reasonable fee, be nice to your referring GPs, don't listen to the sale reps and buy a bunch of expensive gadgets, and you will do fine.

charlestweed, I enjoy a lot of your informative posts. I'm accustomed to seeing you write about how current orthos can manage in the *present* changing climate, but this is the first time I've seen you express such long term faith in the specialty by mentioning your son (off-handedly, albeit).

So between all the usual chatter---changes in technology, super GP's, ortho grad rates, etc--I take it you still see those as *evolution* of the field rather than gradual diminishment?

- A class of 2020 student curious about ortho, even if the pay raise over GP's went away
 
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charlestweed, I enjoy a lot of your informative posts. I'm accustomed to seeing you write about how current orthos can manage in the *present* changing climate, but this is the first time I've seen you express such long term faith in the specialty by mentioning your son (off-handedly, albeit).

So between all the usual chatter---changes in technology, super GP's, ortho grad rates, etc--I take it you still see those as *evolution* of the field rather than gradual diminishment?

- A class of 2020 student curious about ortho, even if the pay raise over GP's went away

I do think the orthodontic specialty is on the decline like many have pointed out but there is no other better alternative out there. The GPs also experience oversaturation problem due to openings of new dental schools. The same thing happens for Pedo. OS and perio compete for patients. Implants hurt endo. They open more pharmacy, optometry, and medical schools as well. To survive, you just have to be smart at controlling your overhead so you can bring home more of your hard earned money.

So you think that with all the new technology coming out, the tasks of straightening teeth become easier and more GPs can do ortho in their practices? This is a big misconception. In ortho, what makes the job easy is not the technology but it is the doctor’s ability to make the right diagnoses and to come up with the right tx plans to correct the ortho problems. And this ability can only be acquired from attending a formal residency program and from treating a lot of cases for many years. Nothing can replace the human brain. Poor tx plannings in ortho often create more work, more headache, and more time for the doctor to fix the mistakes. This is why some GPs, who do some ortho tx in their offices, know their limitations and still have to refer certain cases out.

IMO, technology has done more harm than good for ortho. For example, an intraoral scanner can only scan one mouth at a time. With the traditional impression technique, we can take impressions on several patients at the same time. And you also have to pay a fee for each scan. Technology is the main culprit for causing rising cost in starting and running an ortho office. Higher overhead forces many orthodontists to raise the tx fee. Higher tx fee makes it less likely for patients to accept treatments. Lack of case acceptances from patients forces the orthodontists to close or sell their offices. And then they come to this forum and whine.

I think it’s a mistake for many ortho programs to introduce to their residents the latest technology and make them become the slaves of these new toys. I am glad I went to a program that made me do everything by myself such as making all ortho appliances instead of using an outside lab, hand-tracing the ceph films, treating patients without an assistant, calling patients, presenting and selling cases to the patients etc. I think learning to do things the hard way during residency training better prepares a person for the real world practice when he/she gets out.
 
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I do think the orthodontic specialty is on the decline like many have pointed out but there is no other better alternative out there. The GPs also experience oversaturation problem due to openings of new dental schools. The same thing happens for Pedo. OS and perio compete for patients. Implants hurt endo. They open more pharmacy, optometry, and medical schools as well. To survive, you just have to be smart at controlling your overhead so you can bring home more of your hard earned money.

So you think that with all the new technology coming out, the tasks of straightening teeth become easier and more GPs can do ortho in their practices? This is a big misconception. In ortho, what makes the job easy is not the technology but it is the doctor’s ability to make the right diagnoses and to come up with the right tx plans to correct the ortho problems. And this ability can only be acquired from attending a formal residency program and from treating a lot of cases for many years. Nothing can replace the human brain. Poor tx plannings in ortho often create more work, more headache, and more time for the doctor to fix the mistakes. This is why some GPs, who do some ortho tx in their offices, know their limitations and still have to refer certain cases out.

IMO, technology has done more harm than good for ortho. For example, an intraoral scanner can only scan one mouth at a time. With the traditional impression technique, we can take impressions on several patients at the same time. And you also have to pay a fee for each scan. Technology is the main culprit for causing rising cost in starting and running an ortho office. Higher overhead forces many orthodontists to raise the tx fee. Higher tx fee makes it less likely for patients to accept treatments. Lack of case acceptances from patients forces the orthodontists to close or sell their offices. And then they come to this forum and whine.

I think it’s a mistake for many ortho programs to introduce to their residents the latest technology and make them become the slaves of these new toys. I am glad I went to a program that made me do everything by myself such as making all ortho appliances instead of using an outside lab, hand-tracing the ceph films, treating patients without an assistant, calling patients, presenting and selling cases to the patients etc. I think learning to do things the hard way during residency training better prepares a person for the real world practice when he/she gets out.


Thanks for your post, you always have thoughtful things to say. If, as you saym, ortho is on the decline where do you see the specialty in 10 years?
 
Thanks for your post, you always have thoughtful things to say. If, as you saym, ortho is on the decline where do you see the specialty in 10 years?
Thanks for reading. To be honest, I can't predict what it will be like 10 years from now. I think with increase in competition in the future, the orthodontists will have to lower the treatment fees and start targeting low income patients, whom they largely ignore right now. Right now, most orthodontists set up their practices in middle to high income areas and target mostly the top 20% income earners. Currently, the average fee is around $5k a case, which is too expensive for many low income families with an annual income of less than $30k/year. And many of these families have more than 1 kid, who needs braces. The orthodontists, who charge low competitive fee and know how to keep the overhead low, will continue to do very well.
 
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Has any interviewed at the GA ortho program? How is it?
 
Wow he has a hot wife
Lazzara.jpg
 
Stay away! This guy left a trail of destruction the last time he tried this. People are still paying the price. It's all empty promises that will lead to indentured servitude.
 
Thanks for reading. To be honest, I can't predict what it will be like 10 years from now. I think with increase in competition in the future, the orthodontists will have to lower the treatment fees and start targeting low income patients, whom they largely ignore right now. Right now, most orthodontists set up their practices in middle to high income areas and target mostly the top 20% income earners. Currently, the average fee is around $5k a case, which is too expensive for many low income families with an annual income of less than $30k/year. And many of these families have more than 1 kid, who needs braces. The orthodontists, who charge low competitive fee and know how to keep the overhead low, will continue to do very well.

It's a catch 22. If you somehow figure out how to offer low cost ortho ($1-2000), you have to get lots of referrals. Many times you don't have the budget to make these cases look like $6000 cases so the local general dentists and pediatric dentists trash your work and don't refer. Then you have to spend money on advertising, which ruins your low cost ortho.
 
Orthos are a bunch of crybabies. Get over it. You have a good, clean, easy job. With all the new technology coming out, your job is even easier. Stop your whining. Dermatologists have it much harder than you guys and they dont whine anywhere as much as you guys do.
You don't know what you are talking about.
 
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It's a catch 22. If you somehow figure out how to offer low cost ortho ($1-2000), you have to get lots of referrals. Many times you don't have the budget to make these cases look like $6000 cases so the local general dentists and pediatric dentists trash your work and don't refer. Then you have to spend money on advertising, which ruins your low cost ortho.

For the most part, low fees draw the worst kind of patients in that they don't care about compliance. Lots of missed appointments, broken brackets, poor hygiene, etc. Again, NOT EVERYONE, but in my experience (treating low fee and Medicaid), the majority don't care because either they are paying nothing or very little for treatment. With that level of compliance, successful treatment is very difficult to achieve.
 
For the most part, low fees draw the worst kind of patients in that they don't care about compliance. Lots of missed appointments, broken brackets, poor hygiene, etc. Again, NOT EVERYONE, but in my experience (treating low fee and Medicaid), the majority don't care because either they are paying nothing or very little for treatment. With that level of compliance, successful treatment is very difficult to achieve.
I agree. Hygiene and compliance is so difficult. When I use to see these patients I would often lose $300-700/case. I actually had to go work a part time job in order to see these patients and make ends meet. Then I would get all kind of grief from the general dentists and pediatric dentists about the finish or why didn't I spend more time on the case (even though we were in overtime by 6-12 months and I was bleeding money). I just said eff it and went back to doing high fee cases.
 
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It's a catch 22. If you somehow figure out how to offer low cost ortho ($1-2000), you have to get lots of referrals. Many times you don't have the budget to make these cases look like $6000 cases so the local general dentists and pediatric dentists trash your work and don't refer. Then you have to spend money on advertising, which ruins your low cost ortho.
I completely disagree. Your affordable fee will attract a lot of patients. You don't need to advertise. You don't need to hire a $25/hour TC with a fancy business suit to help sell cases for you. You, the doctor, don't need to spend an hour to convince the new patients to accept your recommended tx. Five-minute consultation is all you need. Time = money. It's better for the doctor to spend time to focus on patient treatment than on trying to sell cases. Just look at how all the ortho programs and dental schools around the country attract patients. They rarely advertise. They get a lot of patients by offering low fee tx for low income patients.

You don't need to use fancy $15 self-ligating brackets to straighten teeth. An equally beautiful ortho result can be achieved with 50 cent brackets. You don't have to pay $5/sqft for a fancy office in order to provide good treatments. It's the doctor's clinical skills that determine the final tx outcomes. It's the painter and not the paintbrush.
 
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Do you see most orthodontists being employees of large DSO/DMSOs?
Most orthodontists have their own offices. After graduation, most new grads work for chain offices to gain experience and to pay down student loan debt. After a few years, they cut down their associate days at the dental chains so they can start their own offices. The beauty of ortho is the orthodontists don't have to completely quit their associate jobs when they start their own office. So they still have a healthy income flowing in while they build their new practice.
 
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For the most part, low fees draw the worst kind of patients in that they don't care about compliance. Lots of missed appointments, broken brackets, poor hygiene, etc. Again, NOT EVERYONE, but in my experience (treating low fee and Medicaid), the majority don't care because either they are paying nothing or very little for treatment. With that level of compliance, successful treatment is very difficult to achieve.
This further proves my point that most private ortho practices largely ignore low income patients. My experience has been the exact opposite. Low income patients trust respect their doctors. They don't do a bunch of internet searches and then go tell the doctors what to do. When their kids don't wear elastics and they don't blame on the doctors....instead, they appologize for their kids for not doing what the doctor told their kids to do. They often make payments on time because the tx fee is more affordable and because they don't have to pay for other fancy things like nice house and BMWs.

I've seen poor results from offices that charge $6-7 a case. They come to my office for re-treatments. Some of these were not due to the previous orthodontists' faults. Many of these patients didn't wear their retainers. So poor patient compliance is not just limited to low income population.
 
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I completely disagree. Your affordable fee will attract a lot of patients. You don't need to advertise. You don't need to hire a $25/hour TC with a fancy business suit to help sell cases for you. You, the doctor, don't need to spend an hour to convince the new patients to accept your recommended tx. Five-minute consultation is all you need. Time = money. It's better for the doctor to spend time to focus on patient treatment than on trying to sell cases. Just look at how all the ortho programs and dental schools around the country attract patients. They rarely advertise. They get a lot of patients by offering low fee tx for low income patients.

You don't need to use fancy $15 self-ligating brackets to straighten teeth. An equally beautiful ortho result can be achieved with 50 cent brackets. You don't have to pay $5/sqft for a fancy office in order to provide good treatments. It's the doctor's clinical skills that determine the final tx outcomes. It's the painter and not the paintbrush.

You and I have had this debate for almost 10 years. Overhead is important. You were able to set up a low fee practice and make it work. However, you also still work for a corporation and one of your offices is your sister's. If you can get the referrals to keep coming in then more power to you. When I tried the low fee thing, I couldn't get enough dentist and patient referral to be profitable. Are you going to be at the AAO next year? Maybe we can grab a beer.
 
You and I have had this debate for almost 10 years. Overhead is important. You were able to set up a low fee practice and make it work. However, you also still work for a corporation and one of your offices is your sister's. If you can get the referrals to keep coming in then more power to you. When I tried the low fee thing, I couldn't get enough dentist and patient referral to be profitable. Are you going to be at the AAO next year? Maybe we can grab a beer.
I love to meet for a beer but I can’t. With 2 young school aged children, I can’t just take off anytime. We have to plan our vacations according to our kids’ school schedules.

I opened 4 offices with the hope that my schedule would be busy enough so that I don’t have to work P/T for the chain anymore. But then I realized I didn’t need to add more days for all of my offices. By hiring another assistant, I can easily add 15 more patients to my appointment book. That’s another wonderful thing about this specialty. That’s why I have some free days to work part time for the chain offices. It’s hard to let go of the easy and good paying job. There are not a lot of easy jobs out there that pay well and allow you to have so much free time in between patients to chat on this forum.
 
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Has any interviewed at the GA ortho program? How is it?
Thanks
 
Thanks for reading. To be honest, I can't predict what it will be like 10 years from now. I think with increase in competition in the future, the orthodontists will have to lower the treatment fees and start targeting low income patients, whom they largely ignore right now. Right now, most orthodontists set up their practices in middle to high income areas and target mostly the top 20% income earners. Currently, the average fee is around $5k a case, which is too expensive for many low income families with an annual income of less than $30k/year. And many of these families have more than 1 kid, who needs braces. The orthodontists, who charge low competitive fee and know how to keep the overhead low, will continue to do very well.

Does this mean that you will have to work more than three hours per day? That would suck.
 
I get that this is an attempt to troll but maybe you don't realize that you only get paid when you work.

Tweedy is always advertising on SDN how little he works at his practice--sometimes four hours per day.
 
I get that this is an attempt to troll but maybe you don't realize that you only get paid when you work.
That’s true for general dentistry and other specialties. Your office loses production when you are away. But for ortho, the doctors continue to receive the monthly payments from their patients (and patients’ insurances) even when they take vacations. Some ortho offices have an autodebit payment program that withdraws the money from the patients’ bank accounts every month. The orthodontists can see their patients every 6-8 weeks and the payment checks still come in every month. To make up for the loss time from taking vacations, the orthodontists can slightly overbook a little bit by seeing patients every 4 weeks (instead of 6-8 weeks) for a month or two or by working 5-6 hours a day (instead of 3-4 hours a day). The assistants handle most of the manual labors anyway.
 
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