New York looting ventilators and N95s from rural hospitals.

[gtb]

Governor Cuomo of New York signed an executive order using armed national guard members to seize personal protective respirator masks and ventilators from rural hospitals, and 'reallocate' these to metro New York City hospitals. To me, it seems he is dooming physicians, nurses, and staff, outside the NYC metro, to infection. If you listen to his full update, he is imploring President Trump to extend this confiscation of ventilators and PPE to other states. Certainly I expect physicians in NYC to support the redistribution of PPE and ventilator, but what about everybody else? Will be useful for others if you include in your reply whether you are in NYC or not? I'm in Seattle.

Amid Ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic, Governor Cuomo Announces Executive Order Allowing State to Redistribute Ventilators & Personal Protective Equipment to Hospitals with Highest Need

Amid the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, Governor Cuomo will issue an Executive Order allowing the state to redistribute ventilators and personal protective equipment, or PPE, from institutions that don't currently need them and redeploy the equipment to other hospitals with the highest need.

www.governor.ny.gov

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[crash2500]

It makes sense to me. What's the issue?

 

[chocomorsel]

Governor Cuomo of New York signed an executive order using armed national guard members to seize personal protective respirator masks and ventilators from rural hospitals, and 'reallocate' these to metro New York City hospitals. To me, it seems he is dooming physicians, nurses, and staff, outside the NYC metro, to infection. If you listen to his full update, he is imploring President Trump to extend this confiscation of ventilators and PPE to other states. Certainly I expect physicians in NYC to support the redistribution of PPE and ventilator, but what about everybody else?

Amid Ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic, Governor Cuomo Announces Executive Order Allowing State to Redistribute Ventilators & Personal Protective Equipment to Hospitals with Highest Need

Amid the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, Governor Cuomo will issue an Executive Order allowing the state to redistribute ventilators and personal protective equipment, or PPE, from institutions that don't currently need them and redeploy the equipment to other hospitals with the highest need.

www.governor.ny.gov

This is not the definition of looting. He is simply redistributing. Not just stealing for the hell of it.

 

[gtb]

It makes sense to me. What's the issue?

Well, if you read the transcript, Governor Cuomo states that the New York has no ability to obtain additional PPE devices from anywhere in the world. So, deductively, once hospitals give up their PPE respirators, they themselves will have no ability to obtain additional PPE devices.

 

[deleted480308]

Governor Cuomo of New York signed an executive order using armed national guard members to seize personal protective respirator masks and ventilators from rural hospitals, and 'reallocate' these to metro New York City hospitals. To me, it seems he is dooming physicians, nurses, and staff, outside the NYC metro, to infection. If you listen to his full update, he is imploring President Trump to extend this confiscation of ventilators and PPE to other states. Certainly I expect physicians in NYC to support the redistribution of PPE and ventilator, but what about everybody else? Will be useful for others if you include in your reply whether you are in NYC or not? I'm in Seattle.

Amid Ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic, Governor Cuomo Announces Executive Order Allowing State to Redistribute Ventilators & Personal Protective Equipment to Hospitals with Highest Need

Amid the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, Governor Cuomo will issue an Executive Order allowing the state to redistribute ventilators and personal protective equipment, or PPE, from institutions that don't currently need them and redeploy the equipment to other hospitals with the highest need.

www.governor.ny.gov

Not appropriate

 

[gtb]

This is not the definition of looting. He is simply redistributing. Not just stealing for the hell of it.

I'm pretty comfortable that Cuomo's actions satisfy the definition for looting. Especially since Governor Cuomo keeps referring to this as a war against the virus, and since he is sending armed military to 'redistribute' these resources. Definition of LOOTING

 

[chocomorsel]

I'm pretty comfortable that Cuomo's actions satisfy the definition for looting. Especially since Governor Cuomo keeps referring to this as a war against the virus, and since he is sending armed military to 'redistribute' these resources. Definition of LOOTING
View attachment 300937

So I din't see the second definition of this. But can you really not see why he is doing this? Those ventilators are sitting empty, not in use and collecting dust. I am sure they aren't going to terminally extubate rural grandpa and grandma and then confiscate the ventilator.
Let's not get into a tizzy over this. He is caught in a tough position and doing the best he can.
What would you do given the situation? Presumably you have a better idea?

 

[kmurp]

“Sending armed military”... Really? Are you supposing they will shoot nurses who resist the “looting”? How do you know he won’t be taking anesthesia machines from shuttered ASCs to use As vents?

 

[pjl]

The question is, at a place with 40 vents in buffalo or other moderate sized city, where they are currently using 30 of them and expecting their surge over next 6 days, would you take the remaining 10 vents for NYC?

That timeline and vent number is 100% made up to highlight the concern.

 

[chocomorsel]

Well, if you read the transcript, Governor Cuomo states that the New York has no ability to obtain additional PPE devices from anywhere in the world. So, deductively, once hospitals give up their PPE respirators, they themselves will have no ability to obtain additional PPE devices.

Ok first off, PPE and respirators AKA ventilators are two different things. Just FYI. There is no such thing as a “PPE Respirator”.

 

[vector2]

I love how the fat orange idiot and his minions' incompetence has escalated so much that now in addition to the states having to play hunger games against each other they now have to play intrastate as well

 

[chocomorsel]

The question is, at a place with 40 vents in buffalo or other moderate sized city, where they are currently using 30 of them and expecting their surge over next 6 days, would you take the remaining 10 vents for NYC?

That timeline and vent number is 100% made up to highlight the concern.

I wonder if little hospitals are even taking care of Covid patients. They may just be transferring them out once they start becoming critical therefore freeing up ventilators. But totally see your point. Rock and hard place.

 

[pjl]

Ok first off, PPE and respirators AKA ventilators are two different things. Just FYI. There is no such thing as a “PPE Respirator”.

That isn’t actually right. Please see thread about respirators, all about obtaining your own PPE.

Edit: the explanation.

 

[chocomorsel]

That isn’t actually right

Please explain

 

[pjl]

Please explain

That wasn’t fair, I edited above you while you were asking for it, sorry.
See the “would you push for respirators” thread, all about the PPE called respirators.

 

[chocomorsel]

That isn’t actually right. Please see thread about respirators, all about obtaining your own PPE.

Edit: the explanation.

I think the article is confusing and the OP is confused. Cuomo is talking about ventilators being taken if you read further down. Not PPE. And laypeople often use respirators to mean ventilators. Cuomo is talking of returning these items back when done so there he really means ventilators not those little face things with fans. Yes, they are short of both but he wants ventilators.
Yes I was confused too. Thought we were talking strictly ventilators.

 

[pjl]

I think the article is confusing and the OP is confused. Cuomo is talking about ventilators being taken if you read further down. Not PPE. And laypeople often use respirators to mean ventilators. Cuomo is talking of returning these items back when done so there he really means ventilators not those little face things with fans. Yes, they are short of both but he wants ventilators.
Yes I was confused too. Thought we were talking strictly ventilators.

The point is, if you have expected need within 2 weeks, what right does he have to take something which is projected to be used within the same time period. It places his community over yours.
One could argue that there will be a magic new supply within 2 weeks, but there is no way he will give those back when you run out in a week.

Community hospitals are definitely treating Covid for the other person asking.

 

[kmurp]

The point is, if you have expected need within 2 weeks, what right does he have to take something which is projected to be used within the same time period. It places his community over yours.
One could argue that there will be a magic new supply within 2 weeks, but there is no way he will give those back when you run out in a week.

Community hospitals are definitely treating Covid for the other person asking.

Again, if he needs vents, just take anesthesia machines from the shuttered ASCs. I can tell you that the NY DOH has asked for and received a detailed spreadsheet of all of our ASC equipment, so they know exactly what we have.

 

[vector2]

...
He plans to sign an executive order to give the state the power to take equipment from private hospitals, nursing homes, and other facilities. Cuomo objected to a reporter's question saying the state would "seize" ventilators, instead describing it as "sharing" of resources.

“Right now the numbers in upstate New York are lighter than the numbers in downstate New York but that is going to change," Cuomo said. "You're going to see that wave move through the state. ... We're going to shift resources all across the state to whatever place has that need at that time."
...
“Hospitals who are not dealing with Covid are seeing very low activity and it’s not that we’re going to leave any health care facility without adequate equipment, but they don't need excess equipment,” the governor said.
...
Several hundred could represent several hundred lives so am I willing to deploy the National Guard and inconvenience people for several hundred lives, you're damn right I am," the governor said."

 

[gtb]

So I din't see the second definition of this. But can you really not see why he is doing this? Those ventilators are sitting empty, not in use and collecting dust. I am sure they aren't going to terminally extubate rural grandpa and grandma and then confiscate the ventilator.
Let's not get into a tizzy over this. He is caught in a tough position and doing the best he can.
What would you do given the situation? Presumably you have a better idea?

Certainly the national guard will not extubate anyone already on a vent. The governor's order states, "unused" ventilators. It does not seem to permit hospitals to maintain additional ventilators for unexpected events like mass casualty incidents, their own local surge of infections. Also, is it acceptable for a hospital to be stripped of their PPE when the governor himself stated that they cannot find replacements? This puts clinicians of all types (nurses, physicians, RT, etc.) at risk of infection, and then transmitting the virus to colleagues or patients. I appreciate that the Governor is in a tough spot, but his actions effectively prioritize NYC healthcare providers and patients over those throughout the rest of New York.

Ok first off, PPE and respirators AKA ventilators are two different things. Just FYI. There is no such thing as a “PPE Respirator”.
[/QUOTE

I think the article is confusing and the OP is confused. Cuomo is talking about ventilators being taken if you read further down. Not PPE. And laypeople often use respirators to mean ventilators. Cuomo is talking of returning these items back when done so there he really means ventilators not those little face things with fans. Yes, they are short of both but he wants ventilators.
Yes I was confused too. Thought we were talking strictly ventilators.

Shop Particulate Respirator / Surgical Mask - McKesson Medical-Surgical For your reference, when we order N95s from McKesson for the OR, they are actually called Particulate Respirators/ Surgical Masks. No confusion on my part. Shop Particulate Respirator / Surgical Mask - McKesson Medical-Surgical

It is incorrect to state that Governor Cuomo is not talking about seizing PPE, he explicitly states using the national guard to seize both PPE and Ventilators (no idea if he includes anesthesia machines).

 

[crash2500]

Certainly the national guard will not extubate anyone already on a vent. The governor's order states, "unused" ventilators. It does not seem to permit hospitals to maintain additional ventilators for unexpected events like mass casualty incidents, their own local surge of infections. Also, is it acceptable for a hospital to be stripped of their PPE when the governor himself stated that they cannot find replacements? This puts clinicians of all types (nurses, physicians, RT, etc.) at risk of infection, and then transmitting the virus to colleagues or patients. I appreciate that the Governor is in a tough spot, but his actions effectively prioritize NYC healthcare providers and patients over those throughout the rest of New York.

You have to plan for right now. NYC needs them now. You can't hold ventilators back because other places MAY need them.

 

[dannyboy1]

You have to plan for right now. NYC needs them now. You can't hold ventilators back because other places MAY need them.

Enough with the stupid ventilators. I’m hearing from our ICU guys that the death rate of patients who get intubated from COVID is close to 90 %. It won’t make any difference. This disease is a b!tch.

 

[Gas]

I'm at a smaller hospital in upstate NY - about 3 hours from NYC. We have Covid cases - as of this AM 6 in house, 3 of them on vents, and 11 PUIs. We have a 10-bed ICU but have a surge plan. We already agreed to accept 20 patients from NYC (another Cuomo mandate), so to give up our PPE in addition to that doesn't appear to be fair. Even though we are small, we are seeing an increase in our own local cases, and I'm sure we will surge in the next week or 2.

How are we supposed to serve our own community if our hospital fills up with NYC cases, and someone robs us of PPE at the same time?

 

[narcotics999]

I'm at a smaller hospital in upstate NY - about 3 hours from NYC. We have Covid cases - as of this AM 6 in house, 3 of them on vents, and 11 PUIs. We have a 10-bed ICU but have a surge plan. We already agreed to accept 20 patients from NYC (another Cuomo mandate), so to give up our PPE in addition to that doesn't appear to be fair. Even though we are small, we are seeing an increase in our own local cases, and I'm sure we will surge in the next week or 2.

How are we supposed to serve our own community if our hospital fills up with NYC cases, and someone robs us of PPE at the same time?

Just distribute all the PPE to staff. Ventilators? Who cares. Ventilators don't save life.

 

[deleted480308]

You have to plan for right now. NYC needs them now. You can't hold ventilators back because other places MAY need them.

They don’t belong to the govt

 

[Mad Jack]

Enough with the stupid ventilators. I’m hearing from our ICU guys that the death rate of patients who get intubated from COVID is close to 90 %. It won’t make any difference. This disease is a b!tch.

It's more like 33%

 

[deleted126335]

They don’t belong to the govt

The governor, backed by the courts and the national guard say otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted480308]

The governor, backed by the courts and the national guard say otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

They all used to agree on slaves too, their agreement is not the definition of right

 

[deleted480308]

By any modern standard slavery is just plain wrong. Lots of people think that government confiscation of unused ventilators is the right thing to do.

ANd lots thought slavery was cool, they were wrong

Rights matter

 

[deleted126335]

ANd lots thought slavery was cool, they were wrong

Rights matter

Like the right to an abortion? Where are the small government, libertarian types on that right?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[nimbus]

It's more like 33%

This one shows mortality at least 67% with 23% still in icu and 10% discharged from icu.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/articlepdf/2763485/jama_arentz_2020_ld_200020.pdf

Another one out of China showed 80% mortality once admitted to ICU.

 

[deleted480308]

Like the right to an abortion? Where are the small government, libertarian types on that right?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

It’s not in any way a right of anyone to murder an innocent human. Nice try though

 

[chocomorsel]

The point is, if you have expected need within 2 weeks, what right does he have to take something which is projected to be used within the same time period. It places his community over yours.
One could argue that there will be a magic new supply within 2 weeks, but there is no way he will give those back when you run out in a week.

Community hospitals are definitely treating Covid for the other person asking.

I specifically meant little hospitals. Not community hospitals. Some community hospitals are bigger than Universities.
Hospitals that take care of <100 beds, or critical access hospitals.

 

[GravelRider]

This is a national emergency. It’s not much different than instituting a draft or enacting the defense production act. In times of National emergency we grant our leaders excess powers because theoretically they see the forest for the trees. We all agree to these sorts of things when we do things like register for selective service.

 

[Ronin786]

If we had a competent government, this would be coordinated at a federal level.

It should happen with ventilators, PPE, dialysis machines and most importantly personnel. Find out where there's a surplus of physicians, ICU nurses and equipment and move them around the country like mercenaries. It is a war and everybody hoarding for themselves is not helping us win it.

The problem is there is no faith that the federal government or Cuomo will then properly allocate these resources once they've managed their surge. It's the same reason there's an uproar about the national stockpile going preferentially to red states. There's no faith in our incompetent leadership and every hospital (not even state) is left to fend for themselves.

 

[deleted480308]

This is a national emergency. It’s not much different than instituting a draft or enacting the defense production act. In times of National emergency we grant our leaders excess powers because theoretically they see the forest for the trees. We all agree to these sorts of things when we do things like register for selective service.

Shouldn’t exist

 

[Ronin786]

I love how the fat orange idiot and his minions' incompetence has escalated so much that now in addition to the states having to play hunger games against each other they now have to play intrastate as well

I have no idea how Jared Kushner continues to show up in every situation. Of all the brilliant minds this country has, we're forced to listen to this dim-witted dunce opine on every matter ranging from foreign policy to ventilators.

 

[GravelRider]

Shouldn’t exist

Go live somewhere else?

 

[deleted480308]

Go live somewhere else?

We should be a volunteer military only. No draft. And we certainly shouldn’t be seizing private property

 

[vector2]

I have no idea how Jared Kushner continues to show up in every situation.

Sure you do. Trump only trusts family and thus nepotism led to a fking dunce (whose only accomplishments are being born rich and marrying rich) being in charge of peace in the middle east and acting as some kind of extra cook in the kitchen for deadliest pandemic in 100 years.

Combine the nepotism with "acting" director appointments and with the inability to hire and retain hundreds if not thousands of other necessary govt positions and you get what we have now, which is a federal govt that so far has not:

1. Initiated or advised a national stay at home recommendation
2. Quartermastered and organized the supply chain for PPE and vents at the federal level
3. Broadly initiated the DPA for all the difficult to procure items in #2
4. Ramped up massive widespread testing, contact tracing, isolation etc



He did find time this Friday night though to revenge fire the inspector general for the intelligence community....so I guess he's getting something done

Trump to Fire Intelligence Watchdog Who Had Key Role in Ukraine Complaint (Published 2020)

The president notified lawmakers late on Friday, saying he had lost confidence in the inspector general for the intelligence community.

www.nytimes.com

 

[deleted480308]

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he's Jewish, and a lot of people on the Left absolutely can't stand the idea of a Jew being involved in high level decision making in the USA government. There's an entire faction within the Democrat party that is focused on getting Kushner and other Jews out of the White House.

I'd encourage you to tone down your rhetoric because at its heart it sounds like you're mirroring 1930s German national socialist propaganda about the "Jewish problem" in government.

I apologise for the tangent in this thread, but I think that the open antisemitism you displayed in your comment deserves open rebuke.

I think you are way off here

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he's Jewish, and a lot of people on the Left absolutely can't stand the idea of a Jew being involved in high level decision making in the USA government. There's an entire faction within the Democrat party that is focused on getting Kushner and other Jews out of the White House.

I'd encourage you to tone down your rhetoric because at its heart it sounds like you're mirroring 1930s German national socialist propaganda about the "Jewish problem" in government.

I apologise for the tangent in this thread, but I think that the open antisemitism you displayed in your comment deserves open rebuke.

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he’s a ****ing *****.

 

[DarkHorizon]

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he's Jewish, and a lot of people on the Left absolutely can't stand the idea of a Jew being involved in high level decision making in the USA government. There's an entire faction within the Democrat party that is focused on getting Kushner and other Jews out of the White House.

I'd encourage you to tone down your rhetoric because at its heart it sounds like you're mirroring 1930s German national socialist propaganda about the "Jewish problem" in government.

I apologise for the tangent in this thread, but I think that the open antisemitism you displayed in your comment deserves open rebuke.

So leftists have it out for Jews in the government like Kushner, meanwhile 70+ percent of Jewish voters themselves are leftists, and the leftist messiah, Bernie Sanders, himself is Jewish. Explain this to me please.

 

[CardioDad]

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he's Jewish, and a lot of people on the Left absolutely can't stand the idea of a Jew being involved in high level decision making in the USA government. There's an entire faction within the Democrat party that is focused on getting Kushner and other Jews out of the White House.

I'd encourage you to tone down your rhetoric because at its heart it sounds like you're mirroring 1930s German national socialist propaganda about the "Jewish problem" in government.

I apologise for the tangent in this thread, but I think that the open antisemitism you displayed in your comment deserves open rebuke.

WHAT? That's horse poop.

My sister is Jewish and thinks Kushner is an infuriating idiot, as do many of us. His religion has nothing to do with his being wholly unqualified to open his yap.

 

[V5RED]

A lot of the criticism of Jared Kushner has to do with the fact that he's Jewish, and a lot of people on the Left absolutely can't stand the idea of a Jew being involved in high level decision making in the USA government. There's an entire faction within the Democrat party that is focused on getting Kushner and other Jews out of the White House.

I'd encourage you to tone down your rhetoric because at its heart it sounds like you're mirroring 1930s German national socialist propaganda about the "Jewish problem" in government.

I apologise for the tangent in this thread, but I think that the open antisemitism you displayed in your comment deserves open rebuke.

This is not the Breitbart or Infowars comment section.

 

[anbuitachi]

the example cuomo gave in his talk is something along the lines of if a hospital has 5 ventilators sitting, he'll borrow 1. hes not going to take them ALL and leave them with nothing. if that hospital then need additional ventilators, he'll do the same, find ventilators for them from elsewhere.

the point is to use the ventilators RIGHT NOW because people need them

 

[Gastrapathy]

The problem with redistribution of emergency resources is that they won’t make it back. It takes too long. The analogous situation was fire resources in CA. They were taken and not released back to where they came from when the fires reached those communities. So really it becomes a question of who gets sick first. If community expects not to run out in the next two months that’s different but that’s not the reality here.

 

[narcotics999]

the example cuomo gave in his talk is something along the lines of if a hospital has 5 ventilators sitting, he'll borrow 1. hes not going to take them ALL and leave them with nothing. if that hospital then need additional ventilators, he'll do the same, find ventilators for them from elsewhere.

the point is to use the ventilators RIGHT NOW because people need them

Today cuomo takes 1 vent, tomorrow another one, then another one.....

 

[deleted875186]

bottom line, we have a pandemic, all states will have a surge eventually, we need a federal level allocation of resources to be efficient.

trump’s insistence that this is a state level problem is the real failure. We need the national government to take charge and allocate resources. I don’t blame Cuomo for taking charge when Trump is being useless.

 

[deleted480308]

bottom line, we have a pandemic, all states will have a surge eventually, we need a federal level allocation of resources to be efficient.

trump’s insistence that this is a state level problem is the real failure. We need the national government to take charge and allocate resources. I don’t blame Cuomo for taking charge when Trump is being useless.

Your “if-then” statement is not proven

We don’t need federal seizures