New York Resolution on Carib students/clinical spots

[Lokhtar]

Actually, the article said: Foreign Graduates > US Grads = Carribbean Grads. Statistically, there was no difference between US grads and Carib grads. It makes sense that FMGs would be 'better' - if you're good enough to get into a med school in a place like India, and then also good enough to take and do well in a licencing exam in a completely different country - and in some cases, do a whole second residency with a completely different patient population - it's clearly going to make you a pretty good doctor.

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[patel2]

I think the fact that Indian and many true FMG have the best outcomes gives credence to the theory that we could do away completely with undergraduate education and achieve just as good outcomes.

 

[DocEspana]

I think the fact that Indian and many true FMG have the best outcomes gives credence to the theory that we could do away completely with undergraduate education and achieve just as good outcomes.

most FMGs get here by being the best of the best of their country. The anecdote I was told by a foreign doctor is that the residency pay here is more than the attending pay in India. I'm not sure what the bottleneck that stops more from coming here is, but it selects out the strongest among them for practice here. Just noting the filtration of the best practicing docs prob weighs in quite a bit.

 

[rokshana]

i rarely post here, but had to point out that the HHC agreement only requires them to take sgu student as the only foreign students....it makes absolutely NO mention of keeping US MD (or even DO) students out in preference to sgu students....if these hospitals (though, really? when did these hospitals suddenly become the prestigious hospitals in NYC) want to take US med students the HHC agreement does not preclude them from doing so....seems that however the US schools do not like the idea of their students rotating with anyone other than US MD students.

maybe if the NYC schools would get off their holier than thou attitudes, they would have rotations....st joesph's in paterson has Mt Sinai and UMDNJ (as well as UNE, Kirkesville) students rotating there along side....OMG!! SGU students! (i believe that maybe a sign of the end of the world)

i know many of you think that you would never have had to go caribbean (and many think DO too-don't you DOs fool yourself), and some of you probably would not...but remember there but the grace of God...the classes at sgu are made up of your old classmates, your old roommates, you cousins and siblings.....and in the end, if you NYS medical students actually decide to STAY and do residencies at these "prestigious" hospitals....they will be your co interns and co residents (they may EVEN be your chief...)you're gonna have to learn to play nice sometime in your career.

 

[DocEspana]

Actually, the article said: Foreign Graduates > US Grads = Carribbean Grads. Statistically, there was no difference between US grads and Carib grads. It makes sense that FMGs would be 'better' - if you're good enough to get into a med school in a place like India, and then also good enough to take and do well in a licencing exam in a completely different country - and in some cases, do a whole second residency with a completely different patient population - it's clearly going to make you a pretty good doctor.

I'm assuming you only read the abstract? If so, you misread it. The last sentence doesn't say that there was no statistical difference between AMG and USIMG (infact the article itself is very clear there was a different), but rather that when you put all non-american trained people together, regardless of citizenship (aka add in the USIMGs) the difference becomes negligible. So the USIMGs are dragging the FMGs down so much as to make the difference of "all people from non american schools" be negligible. They did find a 9% increase in performance from the FMGs and a 7% decrease from the USIMGs. I will say they said the 7% was not statistically verifiable, but it did have a confidence interval of >95%. So I have no clue why they said that. (actually I do, the odds ratio was just over the threshold, but I consider that unavoidable when you are factoring in 'is there any other possible variable that could have caused this', and am shocked that one of the stats did fall under the odds ratio threshold)

"Of special interest are U.S. citizens who go abroad for medical school. They constitute about one-fifth of the international graduates certified by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates, and the vast majority of them seek graduate training in the United States. 2 International graduates who are U.S. citizens, especially those who attended medical schools in the Caribbean, do not perform as well as U.S. graduates or international graduates who are not U.S. citizens on the USMLE or on specialty board exams. 8,13–15"

for those checking dates: 8 is a 2006 study on surgical outcomes of USIMGs.
13: test performance of USIMGs 1995-2004. (2006 study)
14: USIMGs on specialty board exams. 1981 study (they cant all be new)
15: A repeat of 14's study. Same results 1989 study.

This thread has gone way off the wires though. I was making a somewhat side comment about the studies. At least I was trying to. These studies were big time conversation among the doctors (many of them PDs) I met this weekend. They are all over them, rightfully or wrongly. But this conversation is really about the new policy, which is much more focused on eliminating the ability to actively displace people and does not actively judge the performances of the students.

I've said it a few times, but what is one more: the people who come back to the US are qualified and are clearly the ones strong enough to perform. The PD's know about these studies so you need to convince them, not me, that they're flawed or don't apply to you. I was just telling people what the big buzz is from the docs that is tangental to the issue I was really trying to focus on.

my apologies for losing control of the direction of this thread. It shouldn't have wandered into this area of debate, and I totally helped it get here hahaha.

 

[Lokhtar]

Well 7% not being statistically verifiable means just that.......you can't say they do worse when the study itself says the difference is not statistically verifiable.

What was statistically significant was FMGs doing better than either US grads or Carib Grads...


Anyway, this situation has nothing to do with whether they are better or worse than US grads, it's about who the spots should go to.

 

[DocEspana]

I want to clarify, because people keep missing this (not you lokthar): No one is flipping out because they rotate with islanders. Its because they lost half of their rotation spots over night. Go back up 20ish posts and see my comparison to being accepted to UCLA and then being told you are no longer accepted because someone else paid to take your spot rather than go to a school that hadn't filled its enrollment yet (it makes more sense in my original comment, i'm super condensing in this post).

And HHC hospitals are not prestigious? Bellevue isn't prestigious? All of the level I trauma centers in manhattan aren't desired by anyone who wants the word 'surgeon' anywhere in their future title? 80 facilities in NYC (11 major hospitals) aren't desired. How many hospitals do you really think are in NYC? I know someone will look it up, but 11 is a pretty decent chunk of them.

 

[DocEspana]

Well 7% not being statistically verifiable means just that.......you can't say they do worse when the study itself says the difference is not statistically verifiable.

What was statistically significant was FMGs doing better than either US grads or Carib Grads...


Anyway, this situation has nothing to do with whether they are better or worse than US grads, it's about who the spots should go to.

no the 7% not being verifiable means that it might not be the education itself that makes them be 7% worse (which is verifiable). The confidence interval that this is definitely a correct figure passes a 95% confidence interval. It is not verifiable because the study was to show the education itself, not the natural ability of the doctors or any other factor, was what caused the decreased performance. Its important to note it passed the confidence interval fine, it failed an odds ratio, which just means that they cant confirm what they are studying is the cause of the statistically significant difference. It's still statistically significant and repeatable 19 out of 20 times.

 

[cbrons]

No one is flipping out because they rotate with islanders. Its because they lost half of their rotation spots over night. Go back up 20ish posts and see my comparison to being accepted to UCLA and then being told you are no longer accepted because someone else paid to take your spot rather than go to a school that hadn't filled its enrollment yet

Maybe and maybe not. Does acceptance to one of the NY schools guarantee you a rotation spot at one of the hospitals in question? More importantly, what obligation do these hospitals have to the NY schools? A moral obligation or a legal obligation? If its the former, you are probably in subjective territory and your argument is shaky at best. So because NY schools have historically rotated at these hospitals means they have right to continue to do so? Does proximity = obligation to local students? And by proximity, do you mean just NY students or US students?

In the case of public hospitals receiving tax dollars, you might have a case for NY publics deserving a rotation spot there. But even that is shaky, especially if the Island schools can demonstrate a greater ability to produce physicians who will practice needed in specialties in New York state. I realize this counter-argument may be technically irrelevant if there are other mitigating factors I am not yet seeing but it seems to me that it might be a plausible defense especially in light of what appears to amount to nothing more than a "birthright" argument on your part.

And mostly, I made this reply for greater clarification on the possible legal/moral obligation the NY hospitals might have to NY schools, not because I am taking a stance either way. It seems this thread took a detour into the mostly irrelevant topic of quality of graduates.

 

[Concubine]

New York hospitals should train US students first...make sense to me:

1. Schools in NY should not be trying to outbid outside schools for rotation spots. This sets up schools for additional hikes in tuition.

2. Since when is it wrong for a city to support it's own first?

 

[Ishie1013]

Plain and simply they are (in majority) people who could not make a US school.

Yup, that's pretty much how I see DO students as well. Not as a horrendous thing, don't get me wrong. But sort of in the same "second chance" boat for me, which was exactly what a Carib school was for me. I had the internal DO debate with myself and am glad I went the route I did. If I'd wanted in on a DO school, I would have gone to one. When allopathic US students are hostile towards us, I understand it more, since they did have the big MCATs, but when DOs do it, it's a big . I rotated with DO students and they were fine. Equal to us, I'd say. Though to continue being fair, so were the Cornell students. At no point did I want to lobby congress to push them out.

Simply put: if you were to go to columbia presbyterian would you want the "cream of the crop student" to spend the most time with you, or the person who couldn't qualify for an allopathic school, or for a second-chance redemption school (which is what DO schools are for many, but not nearly all, students) but was willing to pay his way into a third chance because mommy and daddy were rich.

The main three Caribbean schools that are taking up the most NYC clinical spots, thus are what people are complaining about, all have Department of Education loans, thus for the majority, mommy and daddy are decidedly not rich. I know mine aren't. And once they're past the "cream of the crop", why would they want to deal with either variety of second chance?

 

[DocEspana]

Maybe and maybe not. Does acceptance to one of the NY schools guarantee you a rotation spot at one of the hospitals in question? More importantly, what obligation do these hospitals have to the NY schools? A moral obligation or a legal obligation? If its the former, you are probably in subjective territory and your argument is shaky at best. So because NY schools have historically rotated at these hospitals means they have right to continue to do so? Does proximity = obligation to local students? And by proximity, do you mean just NY students or US students?

In the case of public hospitals receiving tax dollars, you might have a case for NY publics deserving a rotation spot there. But even that is shaky, especially if the Island schools can demonstrate a greater ability to produce physicians who will practice needed in specialties in New York state. I realize this counter-argument may be technically irrelevant if there are other mitigating factors I am not yet seeing but it seems to me that it might be a plausible defense especially in light of what appears to amount to nothing more than a "birthright" argument on your part.

And mostly, I made this reply for greater clarification on the possible legal/moral obligation the NY hospitals might have to NY schools, not because I am taking a stance either way. It seems this thread took a detour into the mostly irrelevant topic of quality of graduates.

all hospitals receive tax dollars to take on medical students. Public or private, thats how clinical education works (At least in NY. it'd clearly be a state-by-state thing, but i cant imagine this not being universal). The tax dollars are *not* specific that it should be in-state students or even american students... but... I think it'd be hard to argue that its wrong to say that NYS tax dollars shouldn't be used to the benefit of NY schools.

also... I do think it is an obligation of the hospital to not boot the students from the university that makes it a university hospital. When the students are trained in years 1 and 2 by your doctors and, in some cases, dorm in your hospital's educational wing... yea... i think those places do have a requirement to not displace their students for better paying ones.

and the two arguments that really sticks are the idea that spots that already had been assigned (I'm not saying promised, because that implies it was for the future. i mean spots that HAVE STUDENTS IN THEM are given away and the schools are told they need to find a new place for their students for next month because the remaining rotations have been transferred to Ross students. This, specifically, was Bronx-Lebanon speaking to about 40 combined students from Touro and Einstein). And mind you, Ross was already rotating there, they just bought spots in excess of the maximum spots, so american students had to be told to leave the hospital where they had previously contracted to train at.

The second argument is that NY has a terrible rate of students who do core rotations in the state having their residency in NY as well. The problem always existed, its not an offshore thing, but the rates have become even worse since the offshore students came in since they stay in NY at even lower rates than NY schools do (20-25% vs 33%). And the problem is getting worse as the NY students, who would normally stay in state at least 1/3 of the time, are being trained primarily in CT and NJ now. This was what resonated a lot with the big guys at the meeting, because keeping students in state is a imperative. There is no hope of getting even 33% NY residency rate out of touro when we opened the school with the facilities to train 100% of our students in Manhattan and Queens and 4 years later 80% of our students train in New Jersey due to multiple hospitals buying out our contracts or simply terminating them on the spot. (similar stories for other schools, though none reaching 80% out of state training)

 

[DocEspana]

Yup, that's pretty much how I see DO students as well. Not as a horrendous thing, don't get me wrong. But sort of in the same "second chance" boat for me, which was exactly what a Carib school was for me. I had the internal DO debate with myself and am glad I went the route I did. If I'd wanted in on a DO school, I would have gone to one. When allopathic US students are hostile towards us, I understand it more, since they did have the big MCATs, but when DOs do it, it's a big . I rotated with DO students and they were fine. Equal to us, I'd say. Though to continue being fair, so were the Cornell students. At no point did I want to lobby congress to push them out.


The main three Caribbean schools that are taking up the most NYC clinical spots, thus are what people are complaining about, all have Department of Education loans, thus for the majority, mommy and daddy are decidedly not rich. I know mine aren't. And once they're past the "cream of the crop", why would they want to deal with either variety of second chance?

Please dont even try to frame this as DO vs IMG. I just got tired of posting in a thread on the osteo forums where no matter how clearly I spelled out that this was an allopathic issue, but because I happen to be a DO student who is active in the AMA and MSSNY, my future degree has become a strawman to try to avoid the actual issues. Not saying you are doing all of these things, mind you, just saying that you're comment began to trend that way and I want to stop that nonsense dead because this has nothing to do with DOs beyond the fact that 12.5% of NY med schools are DO schools, but the issues mentioned here primarily are complaints of the remaining 87.5%.

Yea, knew about the DoE loans. But yea... did totally tap into the stereotype of rich parents financing the way. That was actually inappropriate and misrepresentation by me. I'm sorry for that. I should refer to "paying for them" not in the context of the student paying for them, but in the context of the financial machine the caribbean schools have going where 2-3 people pay to enter the school for every 1 that makes it out, and all that excess tuition allows them to pay hospitals somewhere around 12x more than allopathic students are paying. It's not like the costs are even close. They're just putting huge sums of money down per student. Again, I apoligize for being very loose with what I said because I know that stereotype isn't true.

Also, Touro students (the only DOs at all involved in this) were different than the offshores in that we went to these schools and hospitals and asked how many unfilled spots they had and asked, plain and simple, for favors from the medical schools. And the medical schools and hospitals did help us out. We took unfilled spots and some of the medical schools (columbia in particular) moved around their students so that we could have a big presence at Harlem Hospital, their main spot they'd send people who wanted to be surgeons. But they knew they didnt need the whole hospital for those people and gave us large amount of spots and access. The whole thing was really quite polite. And all the columbia students and einstein students and sinai students still remained in their hospitals without a single bit of displacement or problem, they just let us take the open spots they never got around to filling. Thus why no one complained that "touro came in and took our spots" because we didnt, we spread among the open spots unfilled by anyone (INCLUDING offshores, who we didnt displace either. there are plenty of openings to be found). These schools are going beyond taking the openings and are taking already occupied spots forcing students out of hospitals they are already rotating in and closing out other hospitals to all future affiliations.

 

[Gavanshir]

Please dont even try to frame this as DO vs IMG. I just got tired of posting in a thread on the osteo forums where no matter how clearly I spelled out that this was an allopathic issue, but because I happen to be a DO student who is active in the AMA and MSSNY, my future degree has become a strawman to try to avoid the actual issues. Not saying you are doing all of these things, mind you, just saying that you're comment began to trend that way and I want to stop that nonsense dead because this has nothing to do with DOs beyond the fact that 12.5% of NY med schools are DO schools, but the issues mentioned here primarily are complaints of the remaining 87.5%.

Yea, knew about the DoE loans. But yea... did totally tap into the stereotype of rich parents financing the way. That was actually inappropriate and misrepresentation by me. I'm sorry for that. I should refer to "paying for them" not in the context of the student paying for them, but in the context of the financial machine the caribbean schools have going where 2-3 people pay to enter the school for every 1 that makes it out, and all that excess tuition allows them to pay hospitals somewhere around 12x more than allopathic students are paying. It's not like the costs are even close. They're just putting huge sums of money down per student. Again, I apoligize for being very loose with what I said because I know that stereotype isn't true.

Also, Touro students (the only DOs at all involved in this) were different than the offshores in that we went to these schools and hospitals and asked how many unfilled spots they had and asked, plain and simple, for favors from the medical schools. And the medical schools and hospitals did help us out. We took unfilled spots and some of the medical schools (columbia in particular) moved around their students so that we could have a big presence at Harlem Hospital, their main spot they'd send people who wanted to be surgeons. But they knew they didnt need the whole hospital for those people and gave us large amount of spots and access. The whole thing was really quite polite. And all the columbia students and einstein students and sinai students still remained in their hospitals without a single bit of displacement or problem, they just let us take the open spots they never got around to filling. Thus why no one complained that "touro came in and took our spots" because we didnt, we spread among the open spots unfilled by anyone (INCLUDING offshores, who we didnt displace either. there are plenty of openings to be found). These schools are going beyond taking the openings and are taking already occupied spots forcing students out of hospitals they are already rotating in and closing out other hospitals to all future affiliations.

Actually I think it's the other way around, you've used the MSSNY rotation issue to repeatedly bash Caribbean medical students while stating that "this isn't DO vs IMG issue.. please. Your posts in this thread and the other one in pre-osteo make your intentions very clear. You could have very well made your point without constantly attacking Caribbean students.

 

[johnmendes]

An article that I think pretty much settles the "who performs best" issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/health/03doctors.html

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

An article that I think pretty much settles the "who performs best" issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/health/03doctors.html

Isn't that the same study that has a huge confounder: that FMGs have to undergo a US residency before practicing independently? If that's the same study I'm thinking of, it's impossible to draw valid conclusions from the study (considering how important residency is in medical training and that both the FMGs and AMGs underwent a US residency).

 

[johnmendes]

Isn't that the same study that has a huge confounder: that FMGs have to undergo a US residency before practicing independently? If that's the same study I'm thinking of, it's impossible to draw valid conclusions from the study (considering how important residency is in medical training).

I think it has to do with board certification, not sure. There was a larger article, but couldn't find it. I know this is slightly off topic, but i'm sure that you would agree that where you get your education *is possibly* going to influence the type of doctor you become. Also, I found the statement they made in the article pretty interesting:

The authors of the study offered two possible reasons the Americans who went to foreign medical schools might not perform as well as doctors trained in the United States, or as well as foreign-born doctors. One is that many of the Americans who study medicine elsewhere do so because their grades and test scores were too low to get into medical school in the United States — so they may be less capable in the first place. Another possibility is that some of the overseas medical schools Americans attend may not be up to par.

I know that where you go to med school can have little influence in the type of doctor you become, but heck... The better the education you get, the better for everyone.

plus, every board certified doc goes through the same process (different residency, I know), so the differences presented in the study can be imputed to medical education, the only different thing.

 

[DocEspana]

An article that I think pretty much settles the "who performs best" issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/health/03doctors.html

Only read the first few sentences (I have to run to school now), but it seems thats about the study i cited previously which says that FMG > AMG > USIMG. so. yea. I agree totally.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

one of my bud goes to Mt.Sinai and he's about to start 3rd year. He says his class does not have issue with rotations at all.

 

[Belleza156]

So this is fresh off the floor of delegation and debate. The new New York State position on offshore schools is as follow (I admit the wording may be slightly different, i dont have a copy of the final wording, so I'm using my original submitted wording. Its a little tighter worded in reality):

"...medical students from LCME/COCA accredited medical schools should be provided preference in allocation of clinical clerkship opportunities in appropriate, and whenever possible, local hospitals before inviting international students or dual-campus students to serve regardless of other incentives"

Boom goes the dynamite. Now what sort of laws come from this policy? we shall see. For those in NY (NYC especially) this is a *huge* thing. A first step in reclaiming some of the lost clerkship rotations we've been seeing due to the influx of pay-to-play students taking over the clerkship spots in highly desired hospitals.

What is new about this? I was always told that the majority of residency spots are held for LCME applicants. I think 5 years or so ago I was told that less than 30% of residency spots are even available to foreign med students in the first place. This really isn't news to me, but maybe in New York it will have some effect. I believe New York is affiliated with most of the foreign schools like Guadalajara and schools in Israel. Probably also Caribbean, really don't know though.

 

[LesBois88]

This is about clerkship spots, not residencies.

 

[DrWBD]

To get back to the original topic:

It's about damn time this issue was addressed. NY hospitals should be for NY students, not offshore business ventures.

 

[DocEspana]

To get back to the original topic:

It's about damn time this issue was addressed. NY hospitals should be for NY students, not offshore business ventures.

i do so like it when we agree

 

[bruinhd]

I won't refute your arguments but just a few things I want to point out:

- The figure of $100 million isn't just for 600 students, it is a 10 year agreement to have our rotations at those hospitals.

- We do not rotate at Columbia Presbyterian, and I don't think Ross does either, which Caribbean medschool rotates there?

- And yes I believe if we are doing our rotations and residencies in the US, then we should be considered US trained physicians. There is a difference between the FMG who has been practicing in his own country for many years who applies for a US residency and an American citizen who has done his basic sciences abroad and returned to complete the rest of his career in his own country. To discriminate against him or her, who just a few years ago was your own classmate is simply cruel and represents a very cut-throat attitude which I frankly don't think should have any place in medicine (it unfortunately does).

- Someone pointed out that Caribbean students have a lot more time to study for the USMLE, this is not true. Only the minority of students who start in the January term have a few extra months, and this should not matter much as all FMGs who apply for US residencies have potentially been studying for the exam for years. This is perhaps one reason why they are discriminated against by PDs. Either way I don't think those few months will make a big difference in terms of performance.

- Many US medical schools have also do not promote their students to the next MS year unless they perform well enough on their own standardized end of term exams. Many US medical schools also have tracks for those who opt to finish their 4 year program in 5 years, ie. decelerate and redo courses. SGU is very strict with these students and dismisses them, SGU students only have 1 chance to redo a course and that is only if they drop it before the final exam. Anyone with an average below 75 by the end of MS1, or by the end of MS2 is dismissed from the school. The higher attrition rate in these schools should not be a factor as it's the final quality of applicants who finish their basic sciences that end up in the States that matters. In my opinion, the higher attrition rate indicates the school's high standards and not its low quality. Many US medschools will go above and beyond so that their students do not drop out for the sake of their statistics.

I think it's important to make a distinction between Caribbean medical schools, there are schools like SGU that have been operating since 1979, investing back into their own program and facilities, attracting some of the best faculty and visiting professors from the US and across the world, and working hard to secure good rotations in the US, and now have graduates working for the benefit of the US health care system. In my opinion, based on my research and my own experience here in Grenada, SGU is better than many European, Indian, and Asian medical schools. It is simply unfair to say that all Caribbean medical schools run pyramid schemes.

Our students here are very very hard working with very interesting backgrounds and it's unfair for US medical students to actively work against their futures when they have sacrificed so much to achieve their goals and return to their own country to practice medicine. And no we do not have rich parents, most here are on hefty loans and when you have close to 300K in debt and see people "celebrating" their progress towards limiting our medical education and acting arrogant about it, it's truly disheartening. My classmates include a fighter jet pilot, oral surgeon, optometrist, survivor of hurricane Katrina, mothers, fathers, PhD students, etc, etc.. people who for one reason or another could not afford to keep trying to get into the limited spots in the US and Canada.

Most of us have already faced numerous challenges and we would hope that our future colleagues don't actively work to kick us while we are down, but believe me we will make it back into our own country to practice and we will outperform those who spend their time and energy to sabotage our careers.

Let's not jump out there and say that a student who paid to go to a top school only to find he is facing a rotation crisis due to another school buying his spot is being "cutthroat". He has a legitimate concern.

I support your assertion that if a student in the caribbean makes the cut, then he should be allowed to move forward by all means. However, let's not deny that many caribbean schools, especially the one in question, do afford plenty of time to study for Step 1, take prep courses, etc.

 

[hotchocolate]

I find this funny-- I rotated with 8-10 Touro NY students a little over a year ago. A couple of the smarter ones told me that their school accepts just about anyone with a pulse (an exaggeration) and that this is why some of their classmates, who we were also rotating with, were so horrifically lacking in knowledge and clinical skills. Apparently this school was opened a few years ago...Anyways, I met another Touro NY student on an interview a few months ago who said he had rotated at Columbia-Presbyterian. That stuck in my memory, because I was impressed that a Touro student could get a rotation at Columbia.

Now, I'm reading this thread, and I'm wondering why a Touro DO student is framing himself as the advocate for NY medical students. I guess when I think of US medical students, I think of allopathic ones, and I agree that allopathic students should have first dibs on spots at affiliated hospitals. But...I don't think osteopathic students from new osteopathic schools should also have first dibs on rotations along with allopathic students. Seriously, there is another DO school opening up every day...and the newer ones have lower standards for admission than the older more reputable ones.

Another glaring lack of information I could see in this thread was in the performance/quality comparisons of USIMGs vs FMGs versus AMGs. Where exactly were DO's in that comparison? I think before DO's jump on the bandwagon of AMG's we need to breakdown DO's as a category for quality comparisons....that would be interesting indeed.

I'm sure the OP will again say that this is being framed as DO vs IMG issue now...but umm...you already made it that way...so deal with it

 

[Pansit]

I find this funny-- I rotated with 8-10 Touro NY students a little over a year ago. A couple of the smarter ones told me that their school accepts just about anyone with a pulse (an exaggeration) and that this is why some of their classmates, who we were also rotating with, were so horrifically lacking in knowledge and clinical skills. Apparently this school was opened a few years ago...Anyways, I met another Touro NY student on an interview a few months ago who said he had rotated at Columbia-Presbyterian. That stuck in my memory, because I was impressed that a Touro student could get a rotation at Columbia.

Now, I'm reading this thread, and I'm wondering why a Touro DO student is framing himself as the advocate for NY medical students. I guess when I think of US medical students, I think of allopathic ones, and I agree that allopathic students should have first dibs on spots at affiliated hospitals. But...I don't think osteopathic students from new osteopathic schools should also have first dibs on rotations along with allopathic students. Seriously, there is another DO school opening up every day...and the newer ones have lower standards for admission than the older more reputable ones.

Another glaring lack of information I could see in this thread was in the performance/quality comparisons of USIMGs vs FMGs versus AMGs. Where exactly were DO's in that comparison? I think before DO's jump on the bandwagon of AMG's we need to breakdown DO's as a category for quality comparisons....that would be interesting indeed.

I'm sure the OP will again say that this is being framed as DO vs IMG issue now...but umm...you already made it that way...so deal with it

This has nothing to do with DO vs. Carribb MD....or who has better numbers..etc. This is more about schools getting rotations in their local area vs. a school thousands of miles away, from another country getting spots in their region. It would be the same fight and battle if UCLA sent all of their students on rotation in New York and taking up all the spots from NYU. If I was an NYU student I would be like WTF!!!

 

[hotchocolate]

Right, but I would also be pissed off, as a NYU student, if suddenly a DO school popped up in my area and politely kept asking for spots for rotations...and this DO school also had lower standards of admission than the MD schools around, which could mean deterioration in patient care...

I don't see how a brand new DO school getting training is any different from an offshore school getting training...both are taking away from allopathic US students' spots!

 

[Pansit]

Right, but I would also be pissed off, as a NYU student, if suddenly a DO school popped up in my area and politely kept asking for spots for rotations...and this DO school also had lower standards of admission than the MD schools around, which could mean deterioration in patient care...

I don't see how a brand new DO school getting training is any different from an offshore school getting training...both are taking away from allopathic US students' spots!

Again your missing the point. The state of New York is there to PROTECT it's own interest. So that includes people, businesses...etc. A school in New York is going to get preferential treatment over a school thousands of miles away. That is why there are resolutions being passed by the state of New York. That is part of the RISK you take when going to a school from a different country. When RESIDENTS of New York complain that visiting students from an offshore school is getting their spots, then there is a risk for the carribb students because they dont have a voice in that matter. Whether it is a new DO school or new MD school, if it was approved by the state of new york, then it is approved. The NYU students can complain but they cant do much about it, so they complain about something they can do something about...and that is the carribbean students. Plus all the presidents of these schools know each other. MD vs. DO again only occurs in SDN and pre-med minds...in the real world, the president at NYU probably plays golf with the president of whatever new DO school pops up. The staff and faculty at MD schoool X probably have dinner parties with staff and faculty at DO school Y. As for the carrib schools...they dont have that kind of connection.

 

[patel2]

Right, but I would also be pissed off, as a NYU student, if suddenly a DO school popped up in my area and politely kept asking for spots for rotations...and this DO school also had lower standards of admission than the MD schools around, which could mean deterioration in patient care...

I don't see how a brand new DO school getting training is any different from an offshore school getting training...both are taking away from allopathic US students' spots!

right, but the school is politely asking the local schools if it's possible to accomodate the touro students. The MD schools could just as easily say, sorry we are full, and we don't think your school has high enough admission standards to rotate with us (if they felt that way). That's slightly different from shoving down 100 million dollars based on a ponzi scheme of accepting 3 students per 1 student who makes it to rotations, at a school thousands of miles away.

 

[hotchocolate]

I have no personal stake in this issue-- I am done with med school But it is only logical that if the state of NY (or any state) wants to protect medical schools (read allopathic schools, not osteopathic schools), it should place limitations on both the newer DO schools, such as Touro and its gazillion branches (I've heard it's like the McDonalds of DO schools) AND on Caribbean schools. But I guess DO schools want some protection too....even the brand-spankin' new ones....

My personal opinion is also that if the state wants to protect its' citizens' interests, it should do a decent quality comparison of Touro students vs. SGU students to see which students would better serve their patients....but I digress...

 

[Pansit]

right, but the school is politely asking the local schools if it's possible to accomodate the touro students. The MD schools could just as easily say, sorry we are full, and we don't think your school has high enough admission standards to rotate with us (if they felt that way). That's slightly different from shoving down 100 million dollars based on a ponzi scheme of accepting 3 students per 1 student who makes it to rotations, at a school thousands of miles away.

Yes...american schools are able to "politely ask" because they have made those connections already with all the other schools. Like I said, presidents, deans, and faculty from all these school know each other and trust each other, and probably hold luncheons and dinners all the time, so they dont need millions of dollars to shove down anybodys throat. Like I have said...it is the risk with Carribbean schools. They usually dont have that protection from the president and dean of their schools like american students would.

 

[Pansit]

I have no personal stake in this issue-- I am done with med school But it is only logical that if the state of NY (or any state) wants to protect medical schools (read allopathic schools, not osteopathic schools), it should place limitations on both the newer DO schools, such as Touro and its gazillion branches (I've heard it's like the McDonalds of DO schools) AND on Caribbean schools. But I guess DO schools want some protection too....even the brand-spankin' new ones....

My personal opinion is also that if the state wants to protect its' citizens' interests, it should do a decent quality comparison of Touro students vs. SGU students to see which students would better serve their patients....but I digress...

Your missing the point here. If a new DO school popped up in New York, that means it was APPROVED by the state in the first place....so the state has some control over the school...so if it doesnt graduate 1/3 of the class, or only a certain percentage are allowed to take the boards, or only a certain percentage pass the boards, the state has access to that data, and can appropriately take action, as opposed to a carribbean school who does NOT HAVE to give any of that information away.

 

[Gavanshir]

right, but the school is politely asking the local schools if it's possible to accomodate the touro students. The MD schools could just as easily say, sorry we are full, and we don't think your school has high enough admission standards to rotate with us (if they felt that way). That's slightly different from shoving down 100 million dollars based on a ponzi scheme of accepting 3 students per 1 student who makes it to rotations, at a school thousands of miles away.

lol it's hilarious how you frame that. "asking politely" vs "shoving down millions from a ponzi scheme". Some of you have a serious lack of brains. SGU has higher standards than many DO schools and I can guarantee you that most students at SGU could have easily gotten into a DO school but chose not to.

How do you think Touro operates? There have already been a bunch of scandals involving a governor, bribery, prostitution, resignations.. and they are popping open medschools, DO schools, nursing schools, law schools left and right. There is an ongoing investigation on Touro being a diploma mille and paying its president more than any other institution of higher education in the nation. And you compare that to a school that's been operating in Grenada since 1979, reinvesting its money in itself and its facilities, bringing in world reknown visiting professors, doing everything it can to ensure that its students receive great clinical training, maintaining its high standards, helping Grenada thrive and supplying the States with quality physicians. GTFO.

hotchocolate, you bring great points but I wouldn't waste my time here with these people unless you are really really bored, the DO lobby is strong and it's even worst at the political level. They really do use any thing they can to put down other students to get ahead. I guess low esteem issues drive you to forget who you are, where you come from and who your future colleagues are going to be.

 

[Pansit]

lol it's hilarious how you frame that. "asking politely" vs "shoving down millions from a ponzi scheme". Some of you have a serious lack of brains. SGU has higher standards than many DO schools and I can guarantee you that most students at SGU could have easily gotten into a DO school but chose not to.

How do you think Touro operates? There have already been a bunch of scandals involving a governor, bribery, prostitution, resignations.. and they are popping open medschools, DO schools, nursing schools, law schools left and right. There is an ongoing investigation on Touro being a diploma mille and paying its president more than any other institution of higher education in the nation. And you compare that to a school that's been operating in Grenada since 1979, reinvesting its money in itself and its facilities, bringing in world reknown visiting professors, doing everything it can to ensure that its students receive great clinical training, maintaining its high standards, helping Grenada thrive and supplying the States with quality physicians. GTFO.

hotchocolate, you bring great points but I wouldn't waste my time here with these people unless you are really really bored, the DO lobby is strong and it's even worst at the political level. They really do use any thing they can to put down other students to get ahead. I guess low esteem issues drive you to forget who you are, where you come from and who your future colleagues are going to be.

That is a pretty big deal in terms of security in my opinion. If hot shot Harvard wants to take your spots away, then it's nice to know that you have someone protecting your back and will fight for you. If someone wants to question the legality of your degree, then it's nice someone will have your back.

 

[McGillGrad]

lol it's hilarious how you frame that. "asking politely" vs "shoving down millions from a ponzi scheme". Some of you have a serious lack of brains. SGU has higher standards than many DO schools and I can guarantee you that most students at SGU could have easily gotten into a DO school but chose not to. .

Just FYI- You are arguing about education with a person that repeatedly uses "your" instead of "you're."

That is all.

 

[DocEspana]

I find this funny-- I rotated with 8-10 Touro NY students a little over a year ago. A couple of the smarter ones told me that their school accepts just about anyone with a pulse (an exaggeration) and that this is why some of their classmates, who we were also rotating with, were so horrifically lacking in knowledge and clinical skills. Apparently this school was opened a few years ago...Anyways, I met another Touro NY student on an interview a few months ago who said he had rotated at Columbia-Presbyterian. That stuck in my memory, because I was impressed that a Touro student could get a rotation at Columbia.

Now, I'm reading this thread, and I'm wondering why a Touro DO student is framing himself as the advocate for NY medical students. I guess when I think of US medical students, I think of allopathic ones, and I agree that allopathic students should have first dibs on spots at affiliated hospitals. But...I don't think osteopathic students from new osteopathic schools should also have first dibs on rotations along with allopathic students. Seriously, there is another DO school opening up every day...and the newer ones have lower standards for admission than the older more reputable ones.

Another glaring lack of information I could see in this thread was in the performance/quality comparisons of USIMGs vs FMGs versus AMGs. Where exactly were DO's in that comparison? I think before DO's jump on the bandwagon of AMG's we need to breakdown DO's as a category for quality comparisons....that would be interesting indeed.

I'm sure the OP will again say that this is being framed as DO vs IMG issue now...but umm...you already made it that way...so deal with it

Know what? Forget it all. There are only so many times I can type out the same stuff over and over. I'll pop in and answer anyone who brings up new questions/thoughts on the matter. The policy is done and the gears are in motion, so repeating over and over wont change that stuff. If you raise a question and I dont answer, it probably means I'm tired of typing it over and over, so just look it up in the thread.

The only good new point I saw were these two: You rotated with Touro students and how is a new DO school (touro) any different than an offshore in its aquisitions. If you rotated a year ago you did so with our first and only clinical class at the time. So yea, I'm sure they did let in anyone with a pulse. They had a shortened window of interviews because they didnt even intend to open the year they actually did. It was a year early and the school was ready to take interviewees half way through the normal interview window. The class didnt even fill 100% that first year. They're not exactly indicative of the next 3 entering classes (whose stats have already passed the mean scores on the MCAT for osteopathic schools).

As for the clinical education attainment difference: There are unused spots at most hospitals. If B-L can hold 60 students at once for clinical education but Einstein only sends 50 kids, there are 10 unused spots. The other hospitals in NY all have relatively stable rotation lists until recently, so they're not gonna go after 10 spots. Touro came in and found where the openings are. It didn't even displace offshore students since, in 2007, they were rather cemented where they were going too. We simply took the 10 here and 15 there, along with affiliations at classically touro hospitals in NYC, and had a full plate of spots. Specifically we picked up harlem hospital which was a columbia hospital that has been very underutilized for years and could accomodate a lot of our students. All of these moves were done with the blessings of the other schools (whoever said our deans hang out was literally right. The Dean of Touro is the old president of MSSNY. They all know him. Yea, the allopathic group elected my DO dean as their president. Makes me being the student head of legislation seem less crazy now). The offshores were initially doing the same thing and no one complained. But when Ross and SGU and AUC got into a bidding war... well you all know the 2008 story. But the part that pissed everyone off is they used the money to make hospitals dissolve active contracts with allopathic schools. Overnight allopathic students at certain hospitals were replaced with offshore students. Its not that offshores are distasteful, its the fact that these schools had contracts and the hospitals were simply dissolving them and telling the schools to remove x number of their students by the 1st of the next month. (this was worse at places Ross went to than SGU, as HHC was nice enough to make SGU's influx happen every July 1st when the new education season started, while Ross just moved people in each month)

 

[docdonny]

lol it's hilarious how you frame that. "asking politely" vs "shoving down millions from a ponzi scheme". Some of you have a serious lack of brains. SGU has higher standards than many DO schools and I can guarantee you that most students at SGU could have easily gotten into a DO school but chose not to.

How do you think Touro operates? There have already been a bunch of scandals involving a governor, bribery, prostitution, resignations.. and they are popping open medschools, DO schools, nursing schools, law schools left and right. There is an ongoing investigation on Touro being a diploma mille and paying its president more than any other institution of higher education in the nation. And you compare that to a school that's been operating in Grenada since 1979, reinvesting its money in itself and its facilities, bringing in world reknown visiting professors, doing everything it can to ensure that its students receive great clinical training, maintaining its high standards, helping Grenada thrive and supplying the States with quality physicians. GTFO.

hotchocolate, you bring great points but I wouldn't waste my time here with these people unless you are really really bored, the DO lobby is strong and it's even worst at the political level. They really do use any thing they can to put down other students to get ahead. I guess low esteem issues drive you to forget who you are, where you come from and who your future colleagues are going to be.

Just curious what your beef with DO students. Why put down DO physicians who were able to pass boards and become sucessful physicans by claiming they have low esteem issues and then they forget who their colleagues are..are some of your colleagues not DOs??

 

[bruinhd]

This pissing contest is getting ridiculous.

 

[p1acebo]

Just curious what your beef with DO students. Why put down DO physicians who were able to pass boards and become sucessful physicans by claiming they have low esteem issues and then they forget who their colleagues are..are some of your colleagues not DOs??

He is immature, can't formulate a better argument than that. It's ridiculous to think that a bidding war for rotation spots between medical schools is a good thing. Everything in America should just go to the highest bidder eh? Because that is so ethical.

 

[Dharma]

Wow. This started off interesting, but...

 

[Slack3r]

Right, but I would also be pissed off, as a NYU student, if suddenly a DO school popped up in my area and politely kept asking for spots for rotations...and this DO school also had lower standards of admission than the MD schools around, which could mean deterioration in patient care...

I don't see how a brand new DO school getting training is any different from an offshore school getting training...both are taking away from allopathic US students' spots!

Well, to be allowed to advance to 3rd year, a student (DO or MD) would have to pass the licensing exams with a minimum competency as set forth by the bodies that oversee medical education. If you're going to sit here and posit that a student that successfully completes the first two years of med school (DO and MD schools teach the same subjects, GASP!) and goes on to pass the licensing exam will "deteriorate patient care", I guess there's no arguing with that type of stupidity.

 

[Gavanshir]

Just FYI- You are arguing about education with a person that repeatedly uses "your" instead of "you're."

That is all.

haha thanks.

Just curious what your beef with DO students. Why put down DO physicians who were able to pass boards and become sucessful physicans by claiming they have low esteem issues and then they forget who their colleagues are..are some of your colleagues not DOs??

I don't have any beef with DO students or the Osteopathic profession at all. I do have a problem with some of the DO students in this thread who have been badmouthing good medical schools in the Caribbean and good medical students by using false arguments and stereotypes to make the point that they are better in some way. Some of the things being said are downright elitist which is crazy given that DO students are discriminated against just as much as Caribbean graduates are.

The argument that I'm hearing is "you took the risk of going to the Caribbean, now be prepared to face our stereotypes and prejudices about you and your kind". How about people use more brains instead of shallow assumptions?

 

[hotchocolate]

Well, to be allowed to advance to 3rd year, a student (DO or MD) would have to pass the licensing exams with a minimum competency as set forth by the bodies that oversee medical education. If you're going to sit here and posit that a student that successfully completes the first two years of med school (DO and MD schools teach the same subjects, GASP!) and goes on to pass the licensing exam will "deteriorate patient care", I guess there's no arguing with that type of stupidity.

Actually, most of the Touro students I had rotated with had not even taken the first part of COMLEX yet (and definitely didn't take the USMLE)....I'm not saying this about ALL DO students, I'm saying this about Touro students since I have had experience with them....And by the way, it takes a specifically type of immature person (or maybe a Touro student with a stake in this matter?) to call someone stupid who has not called you any names....

 

[hotchocolate]

@Gavanshir, you're right, there is no point posting here unless one is really bored....I'd love to stay around and argue with a bunch of Touro students about why it is so transparently obvious why they would like to kick out Caribbean students from the state of NY, not to protect allopathic students but to free up some more clinical spots for themselves, but I have better things to do, like fill out a gazillion forms for residency....

I'm not from SGU and only know one person who graduated from that school but from my experiences rotating with many Touro students, I can only imagine SGU students must be better...All the best with your career and seriously, your logic is pretty much lost on these people so it's probably a waste of time...

 

[DocEspana]

Actually, most of the Touro students I had rotated with had not even taken the first part of COMLEX yet (and definitely didn't take the USMLE)....I'm not saying this about ALL DO students, I'm saying this about Touro students since I have had experience with them....And by the way, it takes a specifically type of immature person (or maybe a Touro student with a stake in this matter?) to call someone stupid who has not called you any names....

hahaha thought yo were talking about me with the last one. Then I read the quoted section. Now it's actually justified and get it (and is not aimed at me always good)

People get heated. They shouldn't be calling anyone else names. I realize people have opinions and are impassioned, but lets try to stick to facts, citable figures and when we state opinions or generalizations lets make it clear we are doing that. I'd like to think I've carried on at least decently, barring any posts made after midnight EST. Those might be drunk posts

Just know that no one should be dismissing offshore/dual-campus students as inferior as the ones we get to see are the ones who clearly are qualified. I cite a trend that is being shown of a minor inferiority in practice, but that is something people can only see in large populations and would be hard to differentiate from "well this individual is just a bad student" on the micro-level. Just as super students can come from either DO or USIMG programs as well.

The one hard line is that the doctors (aka the powers that be) have decided that AMGs of both degrees deserve protection from "predatory clerkship practices" (not my term, health comissioner's term. And he is pro-IMG because he is pro-hospital, but its somewhat clear that it is predatory). They don't care about paying for preference in *open* spots. They fully encourage the students to be trained elsewhere, especially in state as NY wants the money.... but they are against the trend of purchasing spots that were not up for sale and already had AMGs contracted into by making deals that are unethical for a hospital to accept, but irresistible due to the amount of cash offered.

Okay. continue debate. Please don't call each other names. Some ad homenim is okay, but I dont want this to break down into nonsense. The more factual this can be, the better. Opinions are always welcome if they are clearly opinions. Insulting people is just going to assure the response you get back is equally hostile and even less productive.

 

[DocEspana]

@Gavanshir, you're right, there is no point posting here unless one is really bored....I'd love to stay around and argue with a bunch of Touro students about why it is so transparently obvious why they would like to kick out Caribbean students from the state of NY, not to protect allopathic students but to free up some more clinical spots for themselves, but I have better things to do, like fill out a gazillion forms for residency....

I'm not from SGU and only know one person who graduated from that school but from my experiences rotating with many Touro students, I can only imagine SGU students must be better...All the best with your career and seriously, your logic is pretty much lost on these people so it's probably a waste of time...

I think I'm the only touro student on here. I believe I know all the touro students who post on here and none of them have. Everyone else has been just interested commenters. As to whether it frees up spots for Touro? Probably does. But it wasn't worded in a way where I can be sure. One of the objections I had to the current wording is that it won't do anything at Harlem hospital. And thats me being 100% honest. I wanted it to be worded differently so as to make sure there is an ability for schools to regain lost affiliations, but that wasn't worth fighting for. The wording is as it is just to give NY students a non-descript preference (to hopefully be nailed out much clearer in future legislation).

As for who you rotated with, IDK who they are, but our graduating class this year (which is who you would have rotated with) did really really well in their rotations. Clearly all it takes is one (or two or ten) bad examples to ruin your outlook, but its likely whoever you saw wasnt indicative of our graduating class since they've gotten into some solid hospitals (Yale, NYU, Sinai, Columbia-Presby, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic - OH, okay listing individual spots might just be listing the outliers, but the remainder did strong as well)

 

[hanky1982]

....they will be your co interns and co residents (they may EVEN be your chief...)you're gonna have to learn to play nice sometime in your career.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

haha thanks.



I don't have any beef with DO students or the Osteopathic profession at all. I do have a problem with some of the DO students in this thread who have been badmouthing good medical schools in the Caribbean and good medical students by using false arguments and stereotypes to make the point that they are better in some way. Some of the things being said are downright elitist which is crazy given that DO students are discriminated against just as much as Caribbean graduates are.

The argument that I'm hearing is "you took the risk of going to the Caribbean, now be prepared to face our stereotypes and prejudices about you and your kind". How about people use more brains instead of shallow assumptions?

I agree. Students are saying stuff like SGU has a high attrition rate when in reality it is like 13-20% and that argument is irrelevant. All the SGU students they are complaining about passed the USMLE.

 

[DoctorMedic]

... no.... nobody knows what SGUs numbers are for GPA or MCAT. The health commissioner of NY stated pretty clearly in his town hall meeting a month back he is aware that the numbers they give are cooked as there have been cases of number inconsistency throughout their website. He also said that the students they put out are of quality (i dont disagree) and that he will need to form a committee to blah blah blah. In short he wants SGU to finally actually release the data because their current self-reporting has led to someone from one dept claiming the average is 28 and someone from another claiming is 26 for the same class and both were just counting US enrollees. I wish I had the data so I could know.... but this is *not* about academics. I don't look down on the students who go there. This is about finances.

SGU pre-screens who can take the USMLE. They are well known to decellerate or force people to repeat. but again... this is not about academics. But don't cite a test which is voluntary and a fraction of people take in DO schools against a subset of people who have to take the test and are pre-screened for who can take it. It's comparing apples to armadillos. Totally different worlds. But so you know, the USMLE is not the bar of competence. Its the quantitative marker for residency. The bar for qualitative evaluation of education is resident and attending outcome results. In the last few years multiple studies have been published showing that there are, as a trend, inferior outcomes from US-IMGs. but again. This *might* be about care quality and treatment outcomes, but its more of an ancillary thing. It's still primarily finances.

Well... i mean... they are not US trained. Thats just pointing out something thats just true. I don't get why that got extracted out.

Your comment falsely implies that there are DO students training at C-P for cores. We don't. DOs have been, in a way, much less effected than allopathic students. Touro had to scramble tons because we tried to ally ourselves with classically MD-elite hospitals and then SGU/Ross came in and booted everyone (DO and MD). Touro just went to UMDNJ, PCOM and NYCOM and asked them where they go, and went there now. The issue here is that Columbia is finding their ability to rotate at C-P shrinking despite it being the hospital they are taught their classes right in. The issue here is that Cornell has (almost) no spots at C-P any more because it was their spots that were bought. The issue here is that Einstein no longer has any rotations in its second biggest hospital. The issue here is that we are over $200,000 in debt for going to a NYC school. The estimated cost of competing with SGU and Ross's payments are an additional $17,500 per year in tuition.

This is that the elite MD schools are being kicked out of their classic rotation spots by people who are paying out the ass to do so. The MD schools feel this is unfair practice by a foreign organization to commandeer a state-funded organization (hospitals) that are paid american tax dollars to teach american students. This stuff with HHC is actually able to be stopped in a few easy to imagine ways, legally. Their issue with the private hospitals is harder to enforce as the hospitals are private, but the medical society feels that it remains a predatory practice and decided to officially take a stance against them too.

Are the IMG's not American Citizens? Do they and their families not pay American Taxes? Why shouldn't they have the same opportunity? Remember our country was founded on capitalism. Most hospitals only train American students b/c of the "prestige" of being associated with a medical school increased their reputation. Not because of a desire to help AMG's succeed. Also hospitals state assistance is to provide medical care, as far as I know hospitals don't get a penny more from the govt for training AMGs in clerkships. This means there is no $ to take away as a punishment. Lastly, my biggest beef is that the (seemingly) pretense of the whole thing is so "NY Students get first dibs" however a large portion of the IMG's are NY residents. I'm a resident of NY who goes to a Caribbean school, why aren't my tax dollars better than the California Student who goes to NYU, Columbia, Touro, etc etc? To be honest if any such binding resolution was passed I don't think it would ever take effect as injunctions challenging the constitutionality of it would be sough immediately. Also I think the carib schools would win based on discrimination.

 

[87DO15]

Are the IMG's not American Citizens? Do they and their families not pay American Taxes? Why shouldn't they have the same opportunity? Remember our country was founded on capitalism. Most hospitals only train American students b/c of the "prestige" of being associated with a medical school increased their reputation. Not because of a desire to help AMG's succeed. Also hospitals state assistance is to provide medical care, as far as I know hospitals don't get a penny more from the govt for training AMGs in clerkships. This means there is no $ to take away as a punishment. Lastly, my biggest beef is that the (seemingly) pretense of the whole thing is so "NY Students get first dibs" however a large portion of the IMG's are NY residents. I'm a resident of NY who goes to a Caribbean school, why aren't my tax dollars better than the California Student who goes to NYU, Columbia, Touro, etc etc? To be honest if any such binding resolution was passed I don't think it would ever take effect as injunctions challenging the constitutionality of it would be sough immediately. Also I think the carib schools would win based on discrimination.

Well, technically, those students who are living in NYC the first two years of school are pumping money into the NYC economy in terms of rent, utilities, and all the other expenses. You're not paying taxes to NY when you're living in the Carib, are you? And as a student, aren't you considered an independent? I know financial loans treat you as an independent, but not sure how this applies to everything else (Not rhetorical, actual questions...sorry if they seem ignorant)

Also, the argument sort of fails when considering all the US IMG students who aren't from NY. Just looking at SGU (they have easily available data), 22% of the US students are from NY state. What should happen to the other 78% of students? (I know AUC and Ross are ~90% US, but I couldn't find a breakdown regarding state of citizenship)

I have no dog in this fight...I won't be going to a NY school, nor do I have any interest in training there, just asking questions. Again, this is not an attack on any student or group of students, just trying to point stuff out.