PhD/PsyD Next steps?

[lnkfeshift]

Hi everyone.

I was hoping to get some input on my situation. I have a clinical psych PhD and work at a top ranked hospital. I get paid for clinical but I also do research that I am not paid. I'm quite early career and am grateful for the job. I currently make about $120k but promotion in my current system is vague and political so I would likely not be promoted for years. The patients are usually lovely but the team politics are a nightmare, which isn't helped by the fact I am in a clinic where there are heightened risks of being sued. I'm exhausted by this increased risk and I think other people on the team also feel really overwhelmed by this. Created a really tough, defensive dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out my next step. I have a good amount of student debt so getting some assistance with this wouldn't hurt.

A mentor of mine recommended looking into VA positions because they will pay you back for any student loan payments you make during the year. Is this true? Is there any risk of my student loan repayment application not being accepted? I ask because working in a VA isn't the perfect match for me on paper. I think that the work would be difficult and somewhat uncomfortable for me at times, but I feel strongly that I would be able to provide good, evidence-based and compassionate treatment for 1-2 years in this setting to wipe out my debt. Is this something people do?

Another option is trying to move within the hospital system that I am in -- but I think there's lots of politics that make this difficult. I probably would not see a substantial pay increase until after I already pay back my debt in full.

Lastly, there's private practice. But I'd miss the research/supervision/perks of being part of an institution.

I know this is all pretty vague since I'm trying to be mindful of how much I share. But if people have resources, referrals, recommendations, or questions they recommend I consider, I would really appreciate it.

PS - I've been curious in UX job but understand the market is oversaturated and my stats skills are probably not up to par with top notch applicants

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[WisNeuro]

A mentor of mine recommended looking into VA positions because they will pay you back for any student loan payments you make during the year. Is this true? Is there any risk of my student loan repayment application not being accepted? I ask because working in a VA isn't the perfect match for me on paper. I think that the work would be difficult and somewhat uncomfortable for me at times, but I feel strongly that I would be able to provide good, evidence-based and compassionate treatment for 1-2 years in this setting to wipe out my debt. Is this something people do?

Only if the position includes a repayment option, like EDRP. More of these exist than in the past, but it definitely not universal in VA positions.

As for private practice, you can build out a consultation group pretty easily. It's easier to not miss some things when you're making 2-4X what you used to for the same time and effort.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hi everyone.

I was hoping to get some input on my situation. I have a clinical psych PhD and work at a top ranked hospital. I get paid for clinical but I also do research that I am not paid. I'm quite early career and am grateful for the job. I currently make about $120k but promotion in my current system is vague and political so I would likely not be promoted for years. The patients are usually lovely but the team politics are a nightmare, which isn't helped by the fact I am in a clinic where there are heightened risks of being sued. I'm exhausted by this increased risk and I think other people on the team also feel really overwhelmed by this. Created a really tough, defensive dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out my next step. I have a good amount of student debt so getting some assistance with this wouldn't hurt.

A mentor of mine recommended looking into VA positions because they will pay you back for any student loan payments you make during the year. Is this true? Is there any risk of my student loan repayment application not being accepted? I ask because working in a VA isn't the perfect match for me on paper. I think that the work would be difficult and somewhat uncomfortable for me at times, but I feel strongly that I would be able to provide good, evidence-based and compassionate treatment for 1-2 years in this setting to wipe out my debt. Is this something people do?

Another option is trying to move within the hospital system that I am in -- but I think there's lots of politics that make this difficult. I probably would not see a substantial pay increase until after I already pay back my debt in full.

Lastly, there's private practice. But I'd miss the research/supervision/perks of being part of an institution.

I know this is all pretty vague since I'm trying to be mindful of how much I share. But if people have resources, referrals, recommendations, or questions they recommend I consider, I would really appreciate it.

PS - I've been curious in UX job but understand the market is oversaturated and my stats skills are probably not up to par with top notch applicants

RE: the VA portion specifically, like WisNeuro said, they offer EDRP, which tops out at $40k/year for up to 5 years. Basically, you front the money for the student loan payments, and at the end of each year (assuming you're in the program), VA pays you back for your loan payments once you provide them proof of said payments. I don't think there's any obligation beyond being employed in the position for which EDRP was approved every year. That is, you have to be employed for a full year, every year, to get the repayment; there are no partial awards if you leave before the end of a full year, and you basically lose EDRP if you change to a new position within VA. But there are also no repayment of award obligations on your end if you leave before 5 years are up.

It's definitely something that some people do. However, keep in mind that VA positions might be more in-demand now that they've raised salaries almost across the board. Liability-wise, VA has unique protections as a federal entity, but I'd still recommend carrying your own liability insurance; when push comes to shove, VA will protect VA, which could mean protecting you, but might not. However, if you don't like the politics where you are now, those in VA (both within the department and with respect to patients) likely won't be any better. VA patients can literally call politicians (e.g., local representatives, who do not care about you, or the White House line) to complain about you and your department/clinic. Doesn't mean it will amount to anything, and I don't recall it ever happening to me, but it's a unique complaint option provided to VA patients.

There's another loan repayment program available for jobs in geographic areas classified as high-need, but I can't remember the name of it off-hand. I believe the obligation is usually 2-3 years.

 

[lnkfeshift]

RE: the VA portion specifically, like WisNeuro said, they offer EDRP, which tops out at $40k/year for up to 5 years. Basically, you front the money for the student loan payments, and at the end of each year (assuming you're in the program), VA pays you back for your loan payments once you provide them proof of said payments. I don't think there's any obligation beyond being employed in the position for which EDRP was approved every year. That is, you have to be employed for a full year, every year, to get the repayment; there are no partial awards if you leave before the end of a full year, and you basically lose EDRP if you change to a new position within VA. But there are also no repayment of award obligations on your end if you leave before 5 years are up.

It's definitely something that some people do. However, keep in mind that VA positions might be more in-demand now that they've raised salaries almost across the board. Liability-wise, VA has unique protections as a federal entity, but I'd still recommend carrying your own liability insurance; when push comes to shove, VA will protect VA, which could mean protecting you, but might not. However, if you don't like the politics where you are now, those in VA (both within the department and with respect to patients) likely won't be any better. VA patients can literally call politicians (e.g., local representatives, who do not care about you, or the White House line) to complain about you and your department/clinic. Doesn't mean it will amount to anything, and I don't recall it ever happening to me, but it's a unique complaint option provided to VA patients.

There's another loan repayment program available for jobs in geographic areas classified as high-need, but I can't remember the name of it off-hand. I believe the obligation is usually 2-3 years.

Thanks so much for this information. So let's say I have $80k in debt. I work in a EDRP eligible position for two full years and get $40k each year. I can then leave the system without penalty? Just want to make sure they don't require 5 years of employment to receive any reimbursement. Thanks again for your help

 

[summerbabe]

Thanks so much for this information. So let's say I have $80k in debt. I work in a EDRP eligible position for two full years and get $40k each year. I can then leave the system without penalty? Just want to make sure they don't require 5 years of employment to receive any reimbursement. Thanks again for your help

There is no penalty to leave the program early as it’s seen as a year to year recruitment incentive.

You’ll need to make sure the position that you’re applying for has it listed in the USAJobs description like this: Psychologist

The other thing to consider is that your specific facility will determine the EDRP award amount as each facility has a pool to split between all of its open positions that have been hard to recruit so you may be offered $40k/year or potentially less.

You also won’t know the exact amount when you initially apply for the job. The hiring manager may know what they have been allotted during the interview process or it might be determined later on during the tentative offer process.

There are also some other specific details such as EDRP is only good for debt accrued in pursuit of your PhD/PsyD (so not undergrad or even a MA/MS) and how/whether you’ve consolidated your debt so look into those details and see if they fit your situation. Good luck!

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Hi everyone.

I was hoping to get some input on my situation. I have a clinical psych PhD and work at a top ranked hospital. I get paid for clinical but I also do research that I am not paid. I'm quite early career and am grateful for the job. I currently make about $120k but promotion in my current system is vague and political so I would likely not be promoted for years. The patients are usually lovely but the team politics are a nightmare, which isn't helped by the fact I am in a clinic where there are heightened risks of being sued. I'm exhausted by this increased risk and I think other people on the team also feel really overwhelmed by this. Created a really tough, defensive dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out my next step. I have a good amount of student debt so getting some assistance with this wouldn't hurt.

A mentor of mine recommended looking into VA positions because they will pay you back for any student loan payments you make during the year. Is this true? Is there any risk of my student loan repayment application not being accepted? I ask because working in a VA isn't the perfect match for me on paper. I think that the work would be difficult and somewhat uncomfortable for me at times, but I feel strongly that I would be able to provide good, evidence-based and compassionate treatment for 1-2 years in this setting to wipe out my debt. Is this something people do?

Another option is trying to move within the hospital system that I am in -- but I think there's lots of politics that make this difficult. I probably would not see a substantial pay increase until after I already pay back my debt in full.

Lastly, there's private practice. But I'd miss the research/supervision/perks of being part of an institution.

I know this is all pretty vague since I'm trying to be mindful of how much I share. But if people have resources, referrals, recommendations, or questions they recommend I consider, I would really appreciate it.

PS - I've been curious in UX job but understand the market is oversaturated and my stats skills are probably not up to par with top notch applicants

Plenty of politics at VA, especially if you do anything but be a grunt and see patients full-time. However, if you're into working with patients (and not going to meetings), trying to keep the mission of high-quality compassionate treatment pure (in your own clinics with your own patients), and value job security, it could be worth looking into.

 

[szymk1sm]

Thanks so much for this information. So let's say I have $80k in debt. I work in a EDRP eligible position for two full years and get $40k each year. I can then leave the system without penalty? Just want to make sure they don't require 5 years of employment to receive any reimbursement. Thanks again for your help

To be concrete - assuming you're eligible for the $40k / year EDRP - I think you would have to work there for 3 years. I do not have EDRP, but this is what I've gathered from a friend who does....Year 1 you would pay the first $40k up front yourself. Year 2 you would be reimbursed year 1's 40k and then you would have to make another $40k in payments. Year 3 you would get year 2's 40k reimbursed. Someone who has EDRP may want to verify this.

 

[Sanman]

Thanks so much for this information. So let's say I have $80k in debt. I work in a EDRP eligible position for two full years and get $40k each year. I can then leave the system without penalty? Just want to make sure they don't require 5 years of employment to receive any reimbursement. Thanks again for your help

Doesn't usually work this way. It is usually 20% of your total debt reimbursed at the end of each year. They want you to stay for 5 years. This is also limited to graduate school debt for EDRP, so undergrad loans are not usually eligible.

Also, VA is not a great option at the moment. The budgetary problems this year mean they are not hiring a lot of outside of the VA folks right now and a lot of offers are getting pulled at the last minute (like days before you start). Mental health is a priority, but it is getting messy.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks so much for this information. So let's say I have $80k in debt. I work in a EDRP eligible position for two full years and get $40k each year. I can then leave the system without penalty? Just want to make sure they don't require 5 years of employment to receive any reimbursement. Thanks again for your help

Folks above have done a better job answering your questions than I could, but as they've said, the amount you're awarded annually is based on your total grad school debt (I think it's just divided evenly across 5 years), and each facility or region has a certain "pool" for EDRP from which they have to pay all awardees. So in your case, they may cap your reimbursement at $16k/year. You can still of course pay more than that, they just won't reimburse you for it. But it can still help you pay down your loans faster if you're paying your regular amount plus what VA reimburses you (which can be easier for folks to do after the first year once they've actually received the first reimbursement deposit).

And yes, you can leave at any point without penalty.

 

[summerbabe]

A couple more details:

Prior to finalizing an EDRP agreement, you’ll have some autonomy over how to allocate your distribution over the typical 5 year term since people may struggle with repayment the first year and want to backload (eg 10k first year, 17.5k for the other 4 years for a total $80k award).

I didn’t participate so I don’t know if people are able to frontload their award or by how much if allowed since that wouldn’t make as much sense for the organization so if a 5 year commitment feels like a bad career choice, then the VA is probably not a good fit right now.

Also, if you come up short making repayments up to the full reimbursement amount during any single year, that amount is ‘lost’ from your award and can’t be made up in a future term.

There is generally very low personal liability in the VA since you are working as an extension of the federal govt, which is held to different tort standards and most lawyers are hesitant to sue the federal govt for monetary damages.

However veterans can ‘report’ you to their local congressman/woman, OIG or other govt entities but that’s usually pretty rare for psychologists.

You’ll likely continue to be able to do supervision if your VA has internship, fellowship and/or practicum programs. Research might be possible especially if it’s a larger facility and some people are able to later negotiate a few dedicated hours.

And VA politics are hit or miss. If you’re on a good team/clinic, you can be largely shielded from broader things but some VAs are kinda toxic and punitive in general. The best bet would be to try to network and get in touch with frontline staff who can speak openly and honestly to their experience.

 

[psycho1391]

There are also some other specific details such as EDRP is only good for debt accrued in pursuit of your PhD/PsyD (so not undergrad or even a MA/MS) and how/whether you’ve consolidated your debt so look into those details and see if they fit your situation. Good luck!

I have EDRP for ALL of my debt, including undergraduate loans. I'm getting like 197K. I am unsure of how it happened, but I'm not going to complain.

 

[Sanman]

I have EDRP for ALL of my debt, including undergraduate loans. I'm getting like 197K. I am unsure of how it happened, but I'm not going to complain.

At some point, you likely signed a paper stating that this was all debt related to the degree that allows you to engage in your job (doctoral degree) prior to entering into the program. If this ever gets audited, you may owe the government money. Sounds like your HR did not do a good job explaining this. Hopefully, they won't ask you for the money back.

 

[psycho1391]

At some point, you likely signed a paper stating that this was all debt related to the degree that allows you to engage in your job (doctoral degree) prior to entering into the program. If this ever gets audited, you may owe the government money. Sounds like your HR did not do a good job explaining this. Hopefully, they won't ask you for the money back.

I looked back. When I submitted my transcripts and loans, I designated which ones were undergrad vs grad.

UGH I'm going to email them. I don't want to be on the hook later.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Wait what if you consolidate your undergrad and grad loans? How does the VA differentiate then ?

 

[WisNeuro]

Wait what if you consolidate your undergrad and grad loans? How does the VA differentiate then ?

"If an individual has consolidated two or more educational loans under a single loan, EDRP will only cover loans for education that qualified the participant for appointment to specified health positions. Accordingly, applicants who have consolidated their outstanding educational loans must provide documentation to verify the portion of the balances on their consolidated loans that may be covered under EDRP. It is the participant’s sole responsibility to ensure that payments on a consolidated loan are broken out by the lender that consolidated the loans, e.g., four loans qualified for EDRP, participant consolidates those four loans with three other non EDRP loans, the lender must document how much of the payment(s) went towards the four qualifying EDRP loans in each payment. If this is not available, the participant is subject to being terminated from the EDRP

 

[Cam_Chai19]

I'm not sure I understand why undergraduate loans aren't part of what qualifies someone for an appointment. You have to provide undergraduate transcripts as part of obtaining an appointment, and unless your undergrad degree wasn't in psychology or a relevant field, isn't it part of your training toward a doctoral degree in psychology?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm not sure I understand why undergraduate loans aren't part of what qualifies someone for an appointment. You have to provide undergraduate transcripts as part of obtaining an appointment, and unless your undergrad degree wasn't in psychology or a relevant field, isn't it part of your training toward a doctoral degree in psychology?

I never had to provide undergraduate transcripts to VA for appointment, only grad school. The doctoral degree is what qualifies you to practice as a psychologist, so only it is considered the education that qualified you for your appointment; technically, the undergrad degree could've qualified you for any number of things (including psychology, yes)--I suppose that's how they see it.

 

[Sanman]

I'm not sure I understand why undergraduate loans aren't part of what qualifies someone for an appointment. You have to provide undergraduate transcripts as part of obtaining an appointment, and unless your undergrad degree wasn't in psychology or a relevant field, isn't it part of your training toward a doctoral degree in psychology?

The government does not see it that way. They also don't differentiate which undergrad courses are relevant and not. So, if you have an undergrad degree in underwater basket weaving that you got before your relevant degree, they are not paying for that either. Remember, these rules have to stand up to all cases for all professions.

 

[Patwolvtrojanhusky18PsyD]

I have EDRP for ALL of my debt, including undergraduate loans. I'm getting like 197K. I am unsure of how it happened, but I'm not going to complain.

Don't let them find out, because it is not supposed to apply to undergraduate loans.

 

[Patwolvtrojanhusky18PsyD]

Doesn't usually work this way. It is usually 20% of your total debt reimbursed at the end of each year. They want you to stay for 5 years. This is also limited to graduate school debt for EDRP, so undergrad loans are not usually eligible.

Also, VA is not a great option at the moment. The budgetary problems this year mean they are not hiring a lot of outside of the VA folks right now and a lot of offers are getting pulled at the last minute (like days before you start). Mental health is a priority, but it is getting messy.

Yes currently the VA has a pause on over 1000 positions at almost every large site. Also, in the past couple of years EDRP was being offered more frequently, but with the budgetary issues, this might be taking a hit as well. Several people at one site got denied for EDRP after being told their position was eligible. I JUST got approved for it.

 

[Patwolvtrojanhusky18PsyD]

"If an individual has consolidated two or more educational loans under a single loan, EDRP will only cover loans for education that qualified the participant for appointment to specified health positions. Accordingly, applicants who have consolidated their outstanding educational loans must provide documentation to verify the portion of the balances on their consolidated loans that may be covered under EDRP. It is the participant’s sole responsibility to ensure that payments on a consolidated loan are broken out by the lender that consolidated the loans, e.g., four loans qualified for EDRP, participant consolidates those four loans with three other non EDRP loans, the lender must document how much of the payment(s) went towards the four qualifying EDRP loans in each payment. If this is not available, the participant is subject to being terminated from the EDRP

I love seeing your insight on different posts. One of the few names I instantly recognize.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Don't let them find out, because it is not supposed to apply to undergraduate loans.

Better put some of that cash aside for paying them back if they find out. It probably pretty clearly says somewhere in the small print that it doesn't cover undergrad loans and they have a right to reclaim their (technically OUR) money! They'll probably never get around to figuring it out, but if they do...

 

[Patwolvtrojanhusky18PsyD]

Better put some of that cash aside for paying them back if they find out. It probably pretty clearly says somewhere in the small print that it doesn't cover undergrad loans and they have a right to reclaim their (technically OUR) money! They'll probably never get around to figuring it out, but if they do...

They reclaimed money from me for "overpaying" me for 2 months, when I very clearly told them they were overpaying me and asked for it to be corrected repeatedly. Paid me the wrong GS level. Then said "hey you know what, we are going to waive the repayment." Then proceeded to take it anyway. The pretax amount, I might add.

 

[Sanman]

They reclaimed money from me for "overpaying" me for 2 months, when I very clearly told them they were overpaying me and asked for it to be corrected repeatedly. Paid me the wrong GS level. Then said "hey you know what, we are going to waive the repayment." Then proceeded to take it anyway. The pretax amount, I might add.

If you mess up, it is your fault. If the government messes, it is still your fault. That's the downside of contracts with the government.

 

[psycho1391]

Don't let them find out, because it is not supposed to apply to undergraduate loans.

The HR person that I contacted told me that if the program office decided to approve and sign off on it, then it is settled. So I'm just going to keep moving.

 

[psycho1391]

If you mess up, it is your fault. If the government messes, it is still your fault. That's the downside of contracts with the government.

During my internship year HR messed up and paid us medical resident pay during our first pay period. I remember it taking almost the entire year to pay them back.

 

[psycho1391]

Better put some of that cash aside for paying them back if they find out.

Good idea! I don't trust them as far as I can throw them even with the response above.

 

[WisNeuro]

The HR person that I contacted told me that if the program office decided to approve and sign off on it, then it is settled. So I'm just going to keep moving.

Did you get this in writing?>

 

[Sanman]

The HR person that I contacted told me that if the program office decided to approve and sign off on it, then it is settled. So I'm just going to keep moving.

Typical lazy government response.

 

[psych.meout]

Did you get this in writing?>

Yeah, if it's not in writing, it didn't happen. I wouldn't bank my finances based on what some functionary verbally told me, especially when the party who gave me the money was the US government.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The HR person that I contacted told me that if the program office decided to approve and sign off on it, then it is settled. So I'm just going to keep moving.

I agree with the above that if you have the response in writing, I'd save it (in a few different places) indefinitely. I also wouldn't necessarily count on it saving me if they came to get the money back, but at least you have proof that you made a good faith effort to get it corrected, which seems like it'd be an argument against accusing you of attempting to defraud the government.

 

[psych.meout]

I agree with the above that if you have the response in writing, I'd save it (in a few different places) indefinitely. I also wouldn't necessarily count on it saving me if they came to get the money back, but at least you have proof that you made a good faith effort to get it corrected, which seems like it'd be an argument against accusing you of attempting to defraud the government.

Yeah, sounds like a legal defense, not a defense against losing your money.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, there is probably a better chance that the low level HR person you talked to was telling you what they thought would get you off the phone quickly as opposed to actually knowing what they are talking about.

 

[Sanman]

I agree with the above that if you have the response in writing, I'd save it (in a few different places) indefinitely. I also wouldn't necessarily count on it saving me if they came to get the money back, but at least you have proof that you made a good faith effort to get it corrected, which seems like it'd be an argument against accusing you of attempting to defraud the government.

Yeah, sounds like a legal defense, not a defense against losing your money.

If it was in email, forward yourself a copy to your personal email and print it out. It may not stop them from from asking for the money back, but making a good faith effort to check (and having proof) may get you some forgiveness or removal from any penalties if they do find it.

 

[psycho1391]

Yeah, there is probably a better chance that the low level HR person you talked to was telling you what they thought would get you off the phone quickly as opposed to actually knowing what they are talking about.

Not on the phone. Through email. And they have been the EDRP rep I've been working with and have responded to several emails with good detail.

If it was in email, forward yourself a copy to your personal email and print it out. It may not stop them from from asking for the money back, but making a good faith effort to check (and having proof) may get you some forgiveness or removal from any penalties if they do find it.

Already done. Thanks for checking in on it!

 

[psycho1391]

Did you get this in writing?>

Yep! Always do that with any communication within the VA. Learned that from my first job outside of grad school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Not on the phone. Through email. And they have been the EDRP rep I've been working with and have responded to several emails with good detail.

Already done. Thanks for checking in on it!

If it's the EDRP rep, then I'd say odds are you're pretty safe. Not entirely safe, because it's VA, but pretty safe.

I'd also add that I (unexpectedly) found the EDRP reps to be some of the more helpful, knowledgeable, and responsive HR folks around.

 

[psycho1391]

If it's the EDRP rep, then I'd say odds are you're pretty safe. Not entirely safe, because it's VA, but pretty safe.

I'd also add that I (unexpectedly) found the EDRP reps to be some of the more helpful, knowledgeable, and responsive HR folks around.

It was!
And yes, so helpful

 

[Sanman]

If it's the EDRP rep, then I'd say odds are you're pretty safe. Not entirely safe, because it's VA, but pretty safe.

I'd also add that I (unexpectedly) found the EDRP reps to be some of the more helpful, knowledgeable, and responsive HR folks around.

The actual EDRP reps, yes. The HR folks that are first line helping out with this stuff, not at all. Lots of problems, at least locally.