NIH's Technical IRTA Program?

[peyifi]

NIH's Technical IRTA program trains individuals to become really good "research support personnel."

In my situation, that doesn't sound too bad. I'm soon graduating with a master's, but I am still interested in eventually becoming an MD/PHD. However, my research experience, though totaling up to about 2 years, are eclectic. I do not have long-term research experience, because I haven't been in a lab for at least a year. My longest is going to be 11 months, unfortunately.

My question is, does anyone know if NIH's technical IRTA program allows selected applicants to perform independent research? Or is it strictly for "research support personnel"?

If the answer is no, I might opt elsewhere...

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[Prion13]

Look into the Postbac IRTA position. This is probably more what you want rather than a lab tech position. Your level of independence will depend on the PI, so if you do apply and get offers, make sure you express an interest in working on an independent project and gauge how the PI responds.

 

[mTORC]

Look into the Postbac IRTA position. This is probably more what you want rather than a lab tech position. Your level of independence will depend on the PI, so if you do apply and get offers, make sure you express an interest in working on an independent project and gauge how the PI responds.

If you've graduated college and already finished your masters, you don't qualify for the Postbac IRTA program. However, the technical IRTA probably has the same resources associated with it. I would say go for it! Being at the NIH has been one of the greatest research experiences, and I would gladly do it again.

Edit: Your level of involvement as a technical IRTA will probably depend on how much your PI relies on you. It would be good to discuss these details before you join the lab, as each lab is significantly different. I doubt the PI would mind a higher level of independence on your part if you have the right capabilities.

 

[Reckoner]

If you've graduated college and already finished your masters, you don't qualify for the Postbac IRTA program.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The only requirement is that you finished undergrad two years or less before your start date. If the OP is in a SMP or some other 1 year program, they might still be eligible. To the OP: if you did graduate more than two years ago, you would only be eligible for the technical IRTA. If you want to go that route, I would recommend looking for research associate jobs at universities first. They'll likely pay better and you won't be locked into the 2-3 year commitment. Just my $0.02

 

[Fencer]

I can attest that mTORC is at NIH as a Postbac IRTA. He probably knows the requirements on how to get in, and what the environment is like for the Technical IRTA program.

 

[Reckoner]

I'm actually a Postbac IRTA as well. Our lab has a Technical IRTA, and they are basically a lab tech (doing all of the lab's immunochemistry). Obviously it's all very dependent on the PI. The application does ask about having a Master's, but it doesn't say if this excludes you from one program or the other.

 

[Fencer]

Ask the training officer as to whether the Master's influences the review process. Perhaps, the review committee takes that into a weakness for the applicant. I can tell you that an advanced MD/PhD student will have lower probability of getting a F30 than earlier in the process. The culture in my NIH study section changed from looking for advanced/accomplished students early during my 5 year service to the latter at the end of that time.

 

[Prion13]

I would definitely ask if it really would disqualify you. The way I understand (albeit my experience/knowledge has been more from the postbac side), filling out an application puts you into a database of some sorts that scientists may look through to see if any candidates appeal to them. The issue may come with what the scientists are looking for when they look through the lists of candidates for each program, namely scientists looking through the technical IRTA lists would be more interested in someone who fulfills a lab tech role (and therefore plays more of a support role). You might be overlooked by scientists looking for a student who wants to be more independent. Assuming you are eligible to apply for the post-bac IRTA, the fact that you have a masters might actually strengthen your application to some scientists, and the scientists are the ones who ultimately have to pick you in order for you to obtain a position.

Also, per the technical IRTA application website, technical IRTAs are still considered a part of the "larger postbac community" at NIH, regardless of if they have a masters or not.

 

[peyifi]

Look into the Postbac IRTA position. This is probably more what you want rather than a lab tech position. Your level of independence will depend on the PI, so if you do apply and get offers, make sure you express an interest in working on an independent project and gauge how the PI responds.

Thank you very much! I actually reread the FACS section concerning the postbacc IRTA position after reading your post, and I think I still qualify! I read a few times from different sources that the program was strictly against master's students, but maybe they've changed things?

How exciting; thank you!

 

[peyifi]

If you've graduated college and already finished your masters, you don't qualify for the Postbac IRTA program. However, the technical IRTA probably has the same resources associated with it. I would say go for it! Being at the NIH has been one of the greatest research experiences, and I would gladly do it again.

Edit: Your level of involvement as a technical IRTA will probably depend on how much your PI relies on you. It would be good to discuss these details before you join the lab, as each lab is significantly different. I doubt the PI would mind a higher level of independence on your part if you have the right capabilities.

You've brought up some important and relevant points.

After rereading the FAQs on the NIH website, I found this tidbit of information:
"I have a Master's Degree. Am I eligible to apply to the Postbac IRTA/CRTA Program? Eligibility for the Postbac IRTA/CRTA program is based solely on the timing of the receipt of your bachelor's degree. If you do not meet this requirement, consider applying to the NIH Techinical IRTA/CRTA Program."

Must be a new thing, because I didn't see it there before.

Still, independence will definitely be something I plan to discuss, regardless of where I go.

 

[peyifi]

I'm actually a Postbac IRTA as well. Our lab has a Technical IRTA, and they are basically a lab tech (doing all of the lab's immunochemistry). Obviously it's all very dependent on the PI. The application does ask about having a Master's, but it doesn't say if this excludes you from one program or the other.

It's a master's, I think. 30 credits of master's level coursework slammed into 9 months.

I considered the RA route, as well. In many ways, it would be so much easier. However, I once interviewed an MD/PHD once, and he told me that getting research experience in a well-known program, such as the NIH, where most PI's would have an idea of the type of work that goes on, would be more beneficial as compared to working in "some lab." Thus, you can see where I'm going. Thoughts?

 

[peyifi]

Ask the training officer as to whether the Master's influences the review process. Perhaps, the review committee takes that into a weakness for the applicant. I can tell you that an advanced MD/PhD student will have lower probability of getting a F30 than earlier in the process. The culture in my NIH study section changed from looking for advanced/accomplished students early during my 5 year service to the latter at the end of that time.

Why wouldn't you want advanced/accomplished students now?

I have no idea what an F30 is...

 

[Reckoner]

It's a master's, I think. 30 credits of master's level coursework slammed into 9 months.

I considered the RA route, as well. In many ways, it would be so much easier. However, I once interviewed an MD/PHD once, and he told me that getting research experience in a well-known program, such as the NIH, where most PI's would have an idea of the type of work that goes on, would be more beneficial as compared to working in "some lab." Thus, you can see where I'm going. Thoughts?

I can't really comment on how faculty view the two, although I'm not sure why the NIH position would look better than one at a productive lab somewhere else. Perhaps Fencer or Maebea can comment. From what I've read and my experience working both in the IRTA program and as an RA at a University, it seems that finding a supportive PI who will let you work on an independent project is way more important than the location or program itself.

 

[mTORC]

I can't really comment on how faculty view the two, although I'm not sure why the NIH position would look better than one at a productive lab somewhere else. Perhaps Fencer or Maebea can comment. From what I've read and my experience working both in the IRTA program and as an RA at a University, it seems that finding a supportive PI who will let you work on an independent project is way more important than the location or program itself.

If you qualify for the NIH Postbac, I would definitely apply. The environment is conducive towards preparing you for a future in science. It's the whole purpose of the position. Your lab will pay for you to take graduate classes at the "Foundation for the Advanced Education in the Sciences", there will be plenty of opportunities to present your research, you will get great health insurance, a good stipend, job security for 1 to 2 years, and time dedicated to applying to medical school / graduate school. Additionally, there are a lot of other Postbacs here, all of whom share very similar goals to you.The NIH Postbac position is also made for you to have an independent role in the laboratory. In my opinion, it's the best opportunity you can get to conduct research without a PhD and to make lifelong friends with similar interests. Of course, there are some people with bad experiences, and it seems that Reckoner is not totally convinced of the program's merit; however, that may be due to his individual lab experience. The program is great, but as always, pick your lab carefully.

 

[Reckoner]

If you qualify for the NIH Postbac, I would definitely apply. The environment is conducive towards preparing you for a future in science. It's the whole purpose of the position. Your lab will pay for you to take graduate classes at the "Foundation for the Advanced Education in the Sciences", there will be plenty of opportunities to present your research, you will get great health insurance, a good stipend, job security for 1 to 2 years, and time dedicated to applying to medical school / graduate school. Additionally, there are a lot of other Postbacs here, all of whom share very similar goals to you.The NIH Postbac position is also made for you to have an independent role in the laboratory. In my opinion, it's the best opportunity you can get to conduct research without a PhD and to make lifelong friends with similar interests. Of course, there are some people with bad experiences, and it seems that Reckoner is not totally convinced of the program's merit; however, that may be due to his individual lab experience. The program is great, but as always, pick your lab carefully.

I think my comments came off the wrong way: I've had a great experience as a Postbac, and you're absolutely right about the benefits of the program. I just don't know if it's viewed as more valuable than an RA job by adcoms.

 

[Fencer]

Why wouldn't you want advanced/accomplished students now?

I have no idea what an F30 is...

F30 is a NIH pre-doctoral training grant for MD/PhD students. If you already have too much already published out of your research, what training is the F30 truly paying for? medical school (or graduate school training)? It is a different issue... Perhaps, I my use of "accomplished" meant that if a student is applying for a grant but already has done the work, it is likely that there is no much training left to go earn this training grant. The postbac IRTA has a purpose and if you are too advanced for that purpose, it works against you.

 

[medschoolbound7]

F30 is a NIH pre-doctoral training grant for MD/PhD students. If you already have too much already published out of your research, what training is the F30 truly paying for? medical school (or graduate school training)? It is a different issue... Perhaps, I my use of "accomplished" meant that if a student is applying for a grant but already has done the work, it is likely that there is no much training left to go earn this training grant. The postbac IRTA has a purpose and if you are too advanced for that purpose, it works against you.

.

 

[mTORC]

F30 is a NIH pre-doctoral training grant for MD/PhD students. If you already have too much already published out of your research, what training is the F30 truly paying for? medical school (or graduate school training)? It is a different issue... Perhaps, I my use of "accomplished" meant that if a student is applying for a grant but already has done the work, it is likely that there is no much training left to go earn this training grant. The postbac IRTA has a purpose and if you are too advanced for that purpose, it works against you.

This is a great point, and something to communicate with your lab. Fencer is way more knowledgeable than me of course, but I'll comment on my experience as an IRTA Fellow at the NIH. Oftentimes postbacs are place under the supervision of a postdoc (but many times you are able to do independent research). As you can imagine, if you are too advanced, you might step on your mentor's toes especially if your goals are like mine, which is to obtain multiple first author manuscripts.

 

[cpi89]

NIH's Technical IRTA program trains individuals to become really good "research support personnel."

In my situation, that doesn't sound too bad. I'm soon graduating with a master's, but I am still interested in eventually becoming an MD/PHD. However, my research experience, though totaling up to about 2 years, are eclectic. I do not have long-term research experience, because I haven't been in a lab for at least a year. My longest is going to be 11 months, unfortunately.

My question is, does anyone know if NIH's technical IRTA program allows selected applicants to perform independent research? Or is it strictly for "research support personnel"?

If the answer is no, I might opt elsewhere...

I have been an NIH post bacc for a little over a year now and can mirror what others have said. Bottom line, it's absolutely worth it. Obviously your experience will vary by lab, but that can be said for any research position. Nonetheless, the NIH is a really great environment, the investigators and staff are top notch and the entire purpose of the fellowship (unlike a RA position) is to provide you with independent research experience prior to applying to medical or graduate school.

As far as the master's degree and whether that will affect your competitiveness: I don't know. If you're eligible for the fellowship, there's no one committee that chooses applicants. The fellows are selected by their PIs from a database of applicants. So you will just have to find a PI that views that as a positive attribute. I think that my PI, for example, would be fine with a post-bacc with a masters.

 

[peyifi]

F30 is a NIH pre-doctoral training grant for MD/PhD students. If you already have too much already published out of your research, what training is the F30 truly paying for? medical school (or graduate school training)? It is a different issue... Perhaps, I my use of "accomplished" meant that if a student is applying for a grant but already has done the work, it is likely that there is no much training left to go earn this training grant. The postbac IRTA has a purpose and if you are too advanced for that purpose, it works against you.

Good point. I've heard stories about situations like that. Although I don't think I'll have to worry about being overqualified right now, I will be sure to keep that perspective in mind for the future, as well. And I'll probably look into it, too. Thank you very much.

 

[peyifi]

This is a great point, and something to communicate with your lab. Fencer is way more knowledgeable than me of course, but I'll comment on my experience as an IRTA Fellow at the NIH. Oftentimes postbacs are place under the supervision of a postdoc (but many times you are able to do independent research). As you can imagine, if you are too advanced, you might step on your mentor's toes especially if your goals are like mine, which is to obtain multiple first author manuscripts.

True. I will see to it that my postdocs won't have to worry about that, though. Thanks.

 

[peyifi]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! Much appreciated!

 

[peyifi]

I just want to give an update as I actually became a postbac IRTA at NIH.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING A POSTBAC HERE.
I had a miserable experience, and it was the most awful thing that has happened to me to date.

I have seen postbacs used and abused through this program as well, for example
--Postbacs overworked; pushed to stay as late as 9PM and given no thought to their work/life balance
--Postbacs being yelled at, dealing with idiotic scientists with no people skills or care for their training and growth
--Postbacs completely neglected and ignored, given no instructions about who to report to or even their project

It was a ****ty place to get situated to the lab environment.

If you don't want to heed my warning and decide to go ahead with it anyway, MAKE SURE you get a lab that is interested and invested in your growth (few and far in between), and has procedures via the institute in place to hold ****ty mentors accountable. Most PIs expect you to perform at the level of a PhD scientist; I was told this by practically everyone.

In my experience there, I was--
a. Bullied by a postdoc
b. Sabotaged by mentors
c. Given no feedback for my work for months
d. Lied to and taken advantage of by my PI who pushed me towards programming his ****ty work when I wanted to become a researcher
e. No publications, recommendations, and was even told I was a "waste of time" by upper management,

etc.

People will also act like you should grovel before NIH because it is the GREATEST place. Lies. All lies. It is not a place to learn, but to do grunt work at the level of a PhD.

I have held a strong record in all my previous lab experiences, and even in just volunteer work for hospitals or labs, showed up consistently and daily. I worked hard, was enthusiastic, put my best effort in, and am left devastated.

tread carefully. you have been warned.

EDIT: To anyone "stuck", here's a thought: What sends red flags to upper management in major corporations?
Answer: Talent leaving as soon as it possibly can to get the **** away.

 

[Noctámbulo]

As others have done above, I want to emphasize how lab and PI-dependent this experience can be. I'm also participating in the IRTA program, and I truly can't complain about a thing. I am working on my own projects, will be producing my own manuscripts, and still have plenty of time to study for the MCAT and even maintain a healthy social life. I strongly recommend talking to other postbacs in the lab (or postdocs, if there are none) before accepting the PI's offer to get a sense of how happy they are to be there.

Edit: I also discussed my desire to lead my own project(s) with the PI during the interview and asked how much independence I would be allowed -- certainly another good question if that's important to you!

 

[peyifi]

^ according to the STATS, over 60% of postbac IRTAs were unhappy with their experience at NIH, and that is out of a sample of over 600 IRTAs.

And I didn't meet a single postbac who had their own projects and manuscripts.

I just want to emphasize that a "normal" lab will likely be an unhappy one.

 

[Noctámbulo]

^ according to the STATS, over 60% of postbac IRTAs were unhappy with their experience at NIH, and that is out of a sample of over 600 IRTAs.

And I didn't meet a single postbac who had their own projects and manuscripts.

I just want to emphasize that a "normal" lab will likely be an unhappy one.

What stats?

 

[peyifi]

Edit: I also discussed my desire to lead my own project(s) with the PI during the interview and asked how much independence I would be allowed -- certainly another good question if that's important to you!

As did I. I asked, despsite the majority of NIH's upper management telling me not to.

What stats?

Stats were presented at the NIH postbac orientation in fall 2015. If you had signed up for it, you would have attended the presentation and seen the stats in plain view.

Please stop trying to cover up what was an awful experience, and in the experience of other IRTAs I met there. Please stop trying to negate my experiene; it was terrible, and me posting about it is really for the benefit of others who may find themselves in the same situation, or come in with expectations it was going to be "great," and it's simply not. Don't give into the hype upper management will tell you about how you should be "grateful to even be there"; it's just another place. You may have somehow landed the perfect little life at NIH, but I can assure you that many people did not.

 

[Chimpoid]

I appreciate your honesty about your experience as the NIH, but I also think it is disingenuous to try to generalize your experience as that of a majority of postbacs. I can understand your frustration given your description of what you went through, but there are more appropriate channels to complain about abuse by your mentor/PI.

For those who are thinking about applying for a postbac at the NIH, it is important to do proper research about the lab(s) that you will be working in. It is certainly true that as a postbac you may be expected to work more than 40 hours a week, but working hours (in addition to publications, vacation time, and feedback expectations) are a point you should discuss with your mentor before accepting an IRTA. I'm not trying to defend PIs who exploit the cheap labor of postbacs - I simply want to emphasize the subjectivity of the postbac experience. You are not expected to perform at the same level as a post-doc. If a PI says that he expects you to perform at this level, you should not join his lab because you will only be setting yourself up to fail.

 

[Fencer]

It is very unfortunate that you had the experience that you described. In all of my interactions with over a hundred IRTAs that I have met over the past 6 years, you seem to be the person with the worst experience. In my view, it only shows that a bad PI can happen anywhere, even in the best of places. FYI... One of my children is there too as an IRTA, and thus far, it has been a great experience. As far as I know, the training office is very responsive to post-bac trainees. They don't read minds, you have to talk and advocate for yourself.

 

[eteshoe]

OP your experience is really the only negative one I've heard from all the people I know who did an IRTA which is unfortunate. I did just want to point out that if you get to the stage where you're mostly doing research (e.g. PhD or Postdoc), it's quite typical (and essentially expected) to really be putting in 60+ hr weeks (for not the best pay). It's the nature of the beast (especially if you want to finish within a reasonable timeframe). If this sounds miserable, then I suggest you forgo the dual degree path and just apply MD.

EDIT: See @Fencer post below pertaining to expected work load on the MD side as well (especially during residency).

 

[Fencer]

fyi... MD residents work 80 hrs per week. When I was a resident, it was 120 for 1st year, then 110, then 100...

You need to find whether you love to do research and/or medicine... o/w you can go into a career in finance where your hours are paid better. This is about loving and enjoying doing research. We don't deny that you had a bad experience. PIs are human and we have some rotten apples.

 

[peyifi]

I appreciate your honesty about your experience as the NIH, but I also think it is disingenuous to try to generalize your experience as that of a majority of postbacs. I can understand your frustration given your description of what you went through, but there are more appropriate channels to complain about abuse by your mentor/PI.

I know you don't like what I am saying, but the facts are the facts-- Stats say it as it is, and I've met plenty of postbacs who were unhappy with their experience. Just because you happened to meet the happy <40%, hundreds more were miserable.

You are not expected to perform at the same level as a post-doc. If a PI says that he expects you to perform at this level, you should not join his lab because you will only be setting yourself up to fail.

Oh, but many do. And I've heard people saying this time and again.

 

[peyifi]

It is very unfortunate that you had the experience that you described. In all of my interactions with over a hundred IRTAs that I have met over the past 6 years, you seem to be the person with the worst experience. In my view, it only shows that a bad PI can happen anywhere, even in the best of places. FYI... One of my children is there too as an IRTA, and thus far, it has been a great experience. As far as I know, the training office is very responsive to post-bac trainees. They don't read minds, you have to talk and advocate for yourself.

Being an AdCom, I highly doubt you'd run into any students who had such a miserable experience, or who would be openly candid and honest about it with you.

That's great for your kid. But NIH being a great place?! Subjective, and not at all.

I appreciate you are understanding about awful PIs. I am fairly certain it was a psychopath. I had the worst existential crisis transpiring out of this experience-- Awful, painful. I will never forget it.

Also,

They don't read minds, you have to talk and advocate for yourself.

considering what happened, it'd be wrong to assume I didn't.

 

[peyifi]

OP your experience is really the only negative one I've heard from all the people I know who did an IRTA which is unfortunate..

I don't want your pity, false generalizations, or advice; it's a ****ty place, and all those posters ^ who told me to take that position and run with it like it was so great; that was very fvcked up. The end.

 

[eteshoe]

I don't want your pity, false generalizations, or advice; it's a ****ty place, and all those posters ^ who told me to take that position and run with it like it was so great; that was very fvcked up. The end.

I'm not giving you any pity and all I can do is "generalize" and compare your experience against the six or so other IRTA fellows I know. In that context, your experience is unfortunate (and f&*^ed as you stated). Typically knowing people at the NIH can never hurt you, especially if you plan on going into academia (they do hold most of the purse strings lol), which is why the experience is usually looked at in such high regard.

In all honesty, has this experience turned you off from pursuing the MD/PhD?

 

[Neuronix]

Please keep things professional. The use of foul language either caught by the filter (****) or made to evade the filter by changing a letter is not permitted.

Further, please avoid any personal attacks or condescending tones. We are colleagues.

If this continues or the thread degenerates, action may be taken including closing this thread.

 

[wwulf2k13]

How would one find a supportive PI for this program?

Seems some PIs are more supportive to IRTAs than others.


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[jellocube]

How would one find a supportive PI for this program?

Seems some PIs are more supportive to IRTAs than others.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

The NIH Technical IRTA program has been discontinued. You should apply for Postbac IRTA or CRTA.
https://www.training.nih.gov/programs/tech_irta

 

[Noctámbulo]

I am working in the Montana location for my gap year and can confirm funding comes form the individual lab

 

[Fencer]

A mixture of both... You can call the OITE. See:

• https://www.training.nih.gov/programs
• https://www.training.nih.gov/contact