Non-cadaver Anatomy Labs?

[JP2740]

I heard that OU Beaumont's new med school has no cadavers for their anatomy lab. It's some 3d program, but that's just what I heard. Anybody seen this at other programs, or can confirm that OU's anatomy lab is like that?

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[Kadava Reviva]

I heard that OU Beaumont's new med school has no cadavers for their anatomy lab. It's some 3d program, but that's just what I heard. Anybody seen this at other programs, or can confirm that OU's anatomy lab is like that?

Wow! You can just go home smelling normal. You may have to buy Calvin Klein's "Eau de Formaldehyde", so people know you're a med student.
I can't say kadavas were absolutely necessary for learning anatomy for most future physicians.

 

[b-real]

They're called prosections and a few schools have been doing this for years. UCSF comes to mind.

 

[Bro Dude]

I heard that OU Beaumont's new med school has no cadavers for their anatomy lab. It's some 3d program, but that's just what I heard. Anybody seen this at other programs, or can confirm that OU's anatomy lab is like that?

Hearsay much?

When I interviewed there no such thing was ever mentioned. In fact, it was one of the schools that let us into the gross lab while actual dissections - yes, on kadavurz - were going on.

 

[mmmcdowe]

AAm I the only one thinking of the killing curse?

 

[mmmcdowe]

AAm I the only one thinking of the killing curse?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

AAm I the only one thinking of the killing curse?

That's what I think of every time I see Kadava Reviva post.

 

[KinasePro]

I'd imagine surgeons are against the concept of no-cadaver anatomy courses and even prosections, to an extent. One of the few ways you can build hemostat/tweezer/scissor dexterity is by dissecting a real specimen, with delicate veins and elusive nerves and obnoxious fascia etc... Or maybe our surgeon lecturers are just trying to make us feel better about spending 6 hours of our lives cleaning the brachial plexus.

 

[johnmendes]

In Europe it's quite common not to have cadavers. But I have to say, opening up a cadaver and fully dissecting it... It creates a bond. I still remember mine, and most of the (little) anatomy I remember was learned in the lab. That said, I think anatomy is a bit overrated in the importance it is given. Physio or pathology are much more important.

 

[FIREitUP]

In Europe it's quite common not to have cadavers. But I have to say, opening up a cadaver and fully dissecting it... It creates a bond. I still remember mine, and most of the (little) anatomy I remember was learned in the lab. That said, I think anatomy is a bit overrated in the importance it is given. Physio or pathology are much more important.

Agreed that path and physio are more important. I can't say I feel a bond with my cadaver, though.

 

[HolySmokes]

Agreed that path and physio are more important. I can't say I feel a bond with my cadaver, though.

I don't necessarily feel a "bond" with my cadaver, but I did really enjoy anatomy lab. Contrary to most people lab was really high yield for me. I'd be pretty bummed if I'd gone to a school that didn't do dissections.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

I'd imagine surgeons are against the concept of no-cadaver anatomy courses and even prosections, to an extent. One of the few ways you can build hemostat/tweezer/scissor dexterity is by dissecting a real specimen, with delicate veins and elusive nerves and obnoxious fascia etc... Or maybe our surgeon lecturers are just trying to make us feel better about spending 6 hours of our lives cleaning the brachial plexus.

A live, warm body has quite a diferent "feel" from a pickled kadava. Blood, colour, flexibility, consistency, etc. The best place to learn surgery is in the OT, with experienced surgeon. Before that, the morgue or the ME autopsy room are great to learn practical anatomy, especially if the corpses are really fresh, past rigor mortis. Physicians and anatomists are different species.

 

[darrylportelli]

removing the cadavers takes one of the fundamental pleasures of medicine away from the med student......I like feeling those squishy lungs, and juggling hearts in the dissetion hall!!!

 

[Vancomycin12]

anatomy lab is like a right of passage for med students. I feel that everyone should experience it that will become a doc.

 

[KinasePro]

A live, warm body has quite a diferent "feel" from a pickled kadava. Blood, colour, flexibility, consistency, etc. The best place to learn surgery is in the OT, with experienced surgeon. Before that, the morgue or the ME autopsy room are great to learn practical anatomy, especially if the corpses are really fresh, past rigor mortis. Physicians and anatomists are different species.

There's no doubt that cadavers feel entirely different from live humans. But it's probably not smart to have the OR be the first place that you reflect skin, clean a vein, remove fascia etc... I only mention this because surgical residents have told me that dissecting is a good time to acquire dexterity with surgical tools.

Otherwise, why bother with the surgical tools at all? It'd be a lot easier to just dissect with some needle-nose pliers and a putty knife.

 

[phltz]

A live, warm body has quite a diferent "feel" from a pickled kadava. Blood, colour, flexibility, consistency, etc. The best place to learn surgery is in the OT, with experienced surgeon. Before that, the morgue or the ME autopsy room are great to learn practical anatomy, especially if the corpses are really fresh, past rigor mortis. Physicians and anatomists are different species.

This is funny, because when I read the thread title, my first thought was, "Non-cadavers? You mean yours aren't dead yet?!"

 

[Chubbums]

I still remember mine, and most of the (little) anatomy I remember was learned in the lab. That said, I think anatomy is a bit overrated in the importance it is given. Physio or pathology are much more important.

 

[ucladoc2b]

removing the cadavers takes one of the fundamental pleasures of medicine away from the med student......I like feeling those squishy lungs, and juggling hearts in the dissetion hall!!!

Eh, anatomy lab got old after, eh, three days or so.

Scraping fascia and fat off of some old cadaver in hopes of finding some stupid nerve (that may or may not even exist depending on who you ask) is about as effective for learning anatomy as banging Grays agianst your skull hoping for knowlege osmosis (at least in my case).

I envy the prosection-only schools.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Im not entirely sure how my grasp of anatomy would be without cadaver lab. Thinking in 3 dimensions is one of the few things I do well and I doubt I really would have had an appreciation for 3D anatomy without the lab.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Eh, anatomy lab got old after, eh, three days or so.

Scraping fascia and fat off of some old cadaver in hopes of finding some stupid nerve (that may or may not even exist depending on who you ask) is about as effective for learning anatomy as banging Grays agianst your skull hoping for knowlege osmosis (at least in my case).

I envy the prosection-only schools.

Exactly. With proper manuals, new teaching tools and videos (before going in the surgery OT, for nit pickers out there), there is no reason to squeeze 4 - 7 students around an almost unrecognizeable formaldehyde-pickled corpse, using valuable time, which could be spent more productively, staring at the gall bladder for 3 hours, dicussing ad nauseum something which is found in the manuals. Do you really need to saw open a skull to learn about the Wernicke area? I like the "scraping fascia and fat" description. Unless the school is located in isolated third wolrd country with no internet or electricity, this "rite of passage" is as obsolete as Xhsosa tribal adolescent circumcision; not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[SpecterGT260]

i really disagree, and so do the anatomy PhD's who teach the course and have really nothing better to do than to figure out how such teaching should best be done. the people in my class who got the least out of cadaver lab were usually the ones who had difficulty getting the dissection technique down. I dont mean that to come across as arrogant or to call you out - it is just that after helping a few of my classmates out with blunt technique they got much more out of the lab. frustration with a fat american cadaver can impede the process, but I really dont think video is a substitute for being able to see the connections and relationships in 3D in real life.

 

[FIREitUP]

i really disagree, and so do the anatomy PhD's who teach the course and have really nothing better to do than to figure out how such teaching should best be done. the people in my class who got the least out of cadaver lab were usually the ones who had difficulty getting the dissection technique down. I dont mean that to come across as arrogant or to call you out - it is just that after helping a few of my classmates out with blunt technique they got much more out of the lab. frustration with a fat american cadaver can impede the process, but I really dont think video is a substitute for being able to see the connections and relationships in 3D in real life.

Yesterday we opened the peritoneal cavity. There was no further dissection to be done. We stood there staring at intestine for 3 hours. That has nothing to do with dissection technique and everything to do with the inherent inefficiency of anatomy lab.

Furthermore, what kind of authority are anatomy PhD's? If I entrusted my medical school education on PhD's I would have a very bad foundation of knowledge.

 

[KinasePro]

Yesterday we opened the peritoneal cavity. There was no further dissection to be done. We stood there staring at intestine for 3 hours. That has nothing to do with dissection technique and everything to do with the inherent inefficiency of anatomy lab.

It all depends on how your course is set up, I guess. Most of our time in lab is spend tracing blood and nerve supply, and getting to the cavity, organ or muscle is just a small part of the work. We'd never just find the organ and stare at it, that definitely sounds like a waste of time.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

It all depends on how your course is set up, I guess. Most of our time in lab is spend tracing blood and nerve supply, and getting to the cavity, organ or muscle is just a small part of the work. We'd never just find the organ and stare at it, that definitely sounds like a waste of time.

The course is usually better suited for anatomists than for med students.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yesterday we opened the peritoneal cavity. There was no further dissection to be done. We stood there staring at intestine for 3 hours. That has nothing to do with dissection technique and everything to do with the inherent inefficiency of anatomy lab.

Furthermore, what kind of authority are anatomy PhD's? If I entrusted my medical school education on PhD's I would have a very bad foundation of knowledge.

eh. at my school much of the basic sciences are considered below the pay grade of MDs who went into this to practice. PhD's somewhat revolve around the education side of most of this stuff. you can say what you want to but my school is top 10 among allopathic and we have only seen MD's as guest lecturers for clinical tie ins. i think the foundation of education should be left to the guy who has focused his lifes work around 1 aspect of the various sciences that are in medicine, but thats just me. although way to belittle PhD's i gotta tell ya, in my experience it may not take a whole lot to enter a PhD program, so there are several people in there that are not MD quality, but the the absolute brightest among us seem to gravitate towards investigative research.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It all depends on how your course is set up, I guess. Most of our time in lab is spend tracing blood and nerve supply, and getting to the cavity, organ or muscle is just a small part of the work. We'd never just find the organ and stare at it, that definitely sounds like a waste of time.

it is what you make of it (which is what i think ur getting at). for those who think it is antiquated and a waste of time I doubt i can convince them otherwise. but i will still have my opinions about them

 

[Kadava Reviva]

it is what you make of it (which is what i think ur getting at). for those who think it is antiquated and a waste of time I doubt i can convince them otherwise. but i will still have my opinions about them

You can't make a five-star gourmet meal with only a pack of ramen noodles and a jar of peanut butter, regardless of how long you stare at them.

 

[FIREitUP]

eh. at my school much of the basic sciences are considered below the pay grade of MDs who went into this to practice. PhD's somewhat revolve around the education side of most of this stuff. you can say what you want to but my school is top 10 among allopathic and we have only seen MD's as guest lecturers for clinical tie ins. i think the foundation of education should be left to the guy who has focused his lifes work around 1 aspect of the various sciences that are in medicine, but thats just me. although way to belittle PhD's i gotta tell ya, in my experience it may not take a whole lot to enter a PhD program, so there are several people in there that are not MD quality, but the the absolute brightest among us seem to gravitate towards investigative research.

PhD's have absolutely no clue how to teach medical students, period. No, I don't want to hear about your research. No, I don't want to hear you talk about some irrelevant enzyme that you encountered as a grad student. They focus so much on minutiae nonsense instead of painting a big picture that many a times I find myself forgoing lectures so I can get a concise explanation from a textbook.

It's the same in the lab. They tag the dumbest/obscure structures because they are difficult to identify and or interesting to them. Nevermind the relevance of it. It's absolutely asinine and needs to be revamped.

 

[alysp13751]

In sweden there is no dissection and you dont get to see a cadaver till like 5th year. Thats the only place in europe where Ive heard you dont. Prob norway as well, since they work along the lines

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

There's always gonna be the anatomy lab lovers and lab haters. I'm personally a hater and I think the lovers are confusing LIKING anatomy lab to lab actually being USEFUL but whatever floats your boat.

Anatomy lab personally wasted a ton of time for me. I'd never do anything during lab, wait till the end of a section when everyone was done dissecting and then spend a couple days looking at all the finished dissections/TA dissections and watching dissection videos. Passed all the practicals no prob. It's almost as if I was studying from dissections that someone had professionally completed for me ahead of time...if only there were a word for that...

 

[JohnCarterIIIDO]

In sweden there is no dissection and you dont get to see a cadaver till like 5th year. Thats the only place in europe where Ive heard you dont. Prob norway as well, since they work along the lines

do they actually have a longer med school than the US or are we talking about 5th year post high school..... as in first year of med school?

 

[SpecterGT260]

PhD's have absolutely no clue how to teach medical students, period. No, I don't want to hear about your research. No, I don't want to hear you talk about some irrelevant enzyme that you encountered as a grad student. They focus so much on minutiae nonsense instead of painting a big picture that many a times I find myself forgoing lectures so I can get a concise explanation from a textbook.

It's the same in the lab. They tag the dumbest/obscure structures because they are difficult to identify and or interesting to them. Nevermind the relevance of it. It's absolutely asinine and needs to be revamped.

Yeah i still disagree. you can't really make a sweeping statement like that - your understanding is limited to your experience. if you havent had a good PhD basic science instructor it could just as easily be the fault of your school's administraiton....

 

[FIREitUP]

Yeah i still disagree. you can't really make a sweeping statement like that - your understanding is limited to your experience. if you havent had a good PhD basic science instructor it could just as easily be the fault of your school's administraiton....

I have had good teachers. But they are very few and far between. Oh, and I can make sweeping statements like that because it's true. They are not clinicians nor do they have any idea how to differentiate bull**** from relevant information.

 

[SpecterGT260]

do they actually have a longer med school than the US or are we talking about 5th year post high school..... as in first year of med school?

true, foreign systems are hard to compare. from my understanding many of them start "med school" directly out of high school after an entrance exam system. some countries (china for example) do not place as high a value on their health system as we do and med school is a consolation prize for those who were unable to get into graduate school.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I have had good teachers. But they are very few and far between. Oh, and I can make sweeping statements like that because it's true. They are not clinicians nor do they have any idea how to differentiate bull**** from relevant information.

they dont need to be clinicians. Maybe you are one of those "data machine" type people.... I learn on a mechanistic basis so I appreciate having the PhDs there to teach me the basic sciences. most MD's have forgotten all but 10% of their basic sciences and fall back on their mnemonics and whatnot. Many technical questions addressed to practicing MD's will receive a "thats just how it is" sort of response. PhD's are more likely to give a full answer to questions concerning "why" systems are the way they are, and that is something that I require to succeed in this. You can still think what you want about it, but I worry a little about the data cruncher students because in my experience they tend to have a harder time integrating and applying the material.

and given your completely objective and scientific definition of "relevant information" *insert wank-off gesture here*, the PhD who directs and lecturers for our cell bio and phys courses also writes and oversees question developments for step 1. but I am sure he has no idea what sorts of information and questions are important for us.....

 

[FIREitUP]

they dont need to be clinicians. Maybe you are one of those "data machine" type people.... I learn on a mechanistic basis so I appreciate having the PhDs there to teach me the basic sciences. most MD's have forgotten all but 10% of their basic sciences and fall back on their mnemonics and whatnot. Many technical questions addressed to practicing MD's will receive a "thats just how it is" sort of response. PhD's are more likely to give a full answer to questions concerning "why" systems are the way they are, and that is something that I require to succeed in this. You can still think what you want about it, but I worry a little about the data cruncher students because in my experience they tend to have a harder time integrating and applying the material.

and given your completely objective and scientific definition of "relevant information" *insert wank-off gesture here*, the PhD who directs and lecturers for our cell bio and phys courses also writes and oversees question developments for step 1. but I am sure he has no idea what sorts of information and questions are important for us.....

It seems that your one professor who oversees questions for step 1 is definitely the norm for the majority of PhD's; I must concede that you are right in your assessment of PhD's teaching medical students. Now that I reflect on my experiences I really do appreciate having biochemical mechanisms being explained to me for 90% of a lecture with the remainder being the important, testable material. *insert wank-off gesture here*

 

[SpecterGT260]

At least we've established that previous sweeping statements were incorrect . But hey, such mistakes can happen when you hate on or make assumptions about someone's ability or authority in a subject simply because they didn't choose the professional path you did.

 

[FIREitUP]

At least we've established that previous sweeping statements were incorrect . But hey, such mistakes can happen when you hate on or make assumptions about someone's ability or authority in a subject simply because they didn't choose the professional path you did.

I hope you realize I was just trying to mess with you. But in all honesty most of my knowledge comes from books or other non-school sources which I trust more, which makes me wonder what I'm paying for...

 

[Kadava Reviva]

The vast majority of med schools outside North America have a six year curriculum right out of highschool. Like most undergrad programs, the attrition rate is pretty high.