Non-trad Second Languages

[lsu hopeful]

How many of you are working on learning a second language as you balance work, family, and school life?

After the dean of admissions of a local med school said he asks in every interview what their second language is, and if they don't have one, that puts them points below people who do, I'm scrambling to learn something beneficial.

I'm thinking of sign language and I assume it could come in very handy as a doctor.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[JKinSC]

I already speak German, well enough to get around in the country anyways. Just received my Pimsleur Eastern Arabic via UPS yesterday, though. I figure that after being married to an Arab for 15 years now, it's about time I moved past cuss words and food.

As far as being helpful, however, you absolutely couldn't go wrong with Spanish. And there are some really good programs out there (Instant Immersion comes to mind) that won't cost you an arm and a leg.

 

[0919mmk]

How many of you are working on learning a second language as you balance work, family, and school life?

After the dean of admissions of a local med school said he asks in every interview what their second language is, and if they don't have one, that puts them points below people who do, I'm scrambling to learn something beneficial.

I'm thinking of sign language and I assume it could come in very handy as a doctor.

Yeah I bet sign language would be great. Spanish of course would be the most useful probably - I'm taking a Spanish class this summer. However, here's a cautionary tale.

My gf was interviewing somewhere this past fall, and one of the other applicants ( a white girl) claimed that she spoke Swahili on her AMCAS. The dean of admissions comes in to the room full of interviewees and goes straight to girl and says "So you speak Swahili?" Turns out the dean did too. And in fact, it turned out the applicant spoke great swahili, and they had a conversation right there. My point being that if you claim to speak a language, you better be ready to really speak it with someone.

I speak Lithuanian, Russian, and French, and in the course of my only 3 interviews last cycle, I had one interviewer ask me if I wanted to conduct the interview in Russian or French cause she spoke both! Luckily, she conducted it in English

So yeah, if you want to put it on your amcas by this summer as a "language spoken", make sure you are fluent! Good luck!

 

[QofQuimica]

After the dean of admissions of a local med school said he asks in every interview what their second language is, and if they don't have one, that puts them points below people who do, I'm scrambling to learn something beneficial.

Interesting requirement. Did he explain the rationale for it? He does realize, I assume, that most hospitals employ translators (either live or via a language line).

Sign language might be fun to learn, but as far as usefulness goes, I have never heard of anyone having to use sign language to try to communicate with a deaf patient. Spanish, as others have suggested, is the most obvious choice overall. Other languages might also be useful depending on where you live. Assuming you're in LA and plan to stay for medical school, you might consider Louisiana Creole.

 

[lsu hopeful]

Interesting requirement. Did he explain the rationale for it? He does realize, I assume, that most hospitals employ translators (either live or via a language line).

Sign language might be fun to learn, but as far as usefulness goes, I have never heard of anyone having to use sign language to try to communicate with a deaf patient. Spanish, as others have suggested, is the most obvious choice overall. Other languages might also be useful depending on where you live. Assuming you're in LA and plan to stay for medical school, you might consider Louisiana Creole.

He didn't explain, other than that's a "checkbox" for him. He also said he asks people what they're currently reading, besides course literature, and subtracts points for people who don't have an answer. Said something about keeping literature uptake diverse, so I assume it's more about a culturally diverse applicant.

Louisiana Creole... that would be incredibly interesting. Too bad I'm not much for the parishes it's actually spoken in, or I'd go for it. Good idea, though.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Probably easier to boost your MCAT score a few points than to learn a second language. Points on MCAT >>>>>>> Points off for not being fluent in second language.

Otherwise, learn Spanish. Huge influx of South and Central Americans to that neck of the woods following Katrina.

 

[Scottish Chap]

How many of you are working on learning a second language as you balance work, family, and school life?

After the dean of admissions of a local med school said he asks in every interview what their second language is, and if they don't have one, that puts them points below people who do, I'm scrambling to learn something beneficial.

I'm thinking of sign language and I assume it could come in very handy as a doctor.

What a stupid policy.

I suppose if the medical school is in Mexico City or even Miama Beach or Morningside Heights in NYC where a working knowledge of Spanish would better serve local patients, I see no major benefit.

My advice: do not learn a second language for the sole purpose of being accepted to medical school. It's small change compared to the other stuff (BTW, I speak a second language, and nobody ever asked or cared about it. I'm a resident now).

 

[QuiSait]

I speak French, a lot of Italian, and by the time I start school I should speak German too.

But really if I go to school in the US, without Spanish, I don't know if it matters!

 

[eablackwell]

I speak German (lived in Vienna for a couple years + majored in it). I also took several semesters of Japanese in college and still understand it quite well, though I'm not sure I can speak it well anymore. I'm attempting to learn Spanish at the moment, but I need someone to practice with, so I'm not being very productive.

I think a 2nd language is useful, but I think it's crappy to rank someone a certain number of pts lower due to lacking one. :-/

 

[bryce]

Lived in Germany as a kid. Came to the States after starting my schooling over there. My German has dropped horribly since then, however, the last time I was there in '04, it seemed that the drunker I became the more it came flooding back to me. Started learning Arabic when I was sent to Arbic training by my battalion commander prior to my deployment to Iraq. Took a year of it in college after I got back.

 

[BAMF]

My gf was interviewing somewhere this past fall, and one of the other applicants ( a white girl) claimed that she spoke Swahili on her AMCAS. The dean of admissions comes in to the room full of interviewees and goes straight to girl and says "So you speak Swahili?" Turns out the dean did too. And in fact, it turned out the applicant spoke great swahili, and they had a conversation right there. My point being that if you claim to speak a language, you better be ready to really speak it with someone.

This is my biggest fear! I would be so nervous that I feel like my already-iffy language skills would go down the drain. I always tell people I can understand languages fluently, but not speak them fluently.

 

[MeowMix]

I learned a little Spanish as a pre-med, worked on it diligently through med school, and now speak fluent Spanish. This skill has saved me a thousand times in clinical situations, I have given my patients better care, and I got a competitive fellowship position partly because of my language skills. I can look back and honestly say that learning Spanish was the single most useful thing I could have done as a pre-med. And I already spoke French and Russian, which have been near-useless.

There have been a couple of times when I desperately wished for ASL fluency, but a hundred times more when I wished for Vietnamese, Farsi, Hmong, or Lao. You have to know your community.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

This...

What a stupid policy.

I suppose if the medical school is in Mexico City or even Miama Beach or Morningside Heights in NYC where a working knowledge of Spanish would better serve local patients, I see no major benefit.

My advice: do not learn a second language for the sole purpose of being accepted to medical school. It's small change compared to the other stuff (BTW, I speak a second language, and nobody ever asked or cared about it. I'm a resident now).

Plus this...

I learned a little Spanish as a pre-med, worked on it diligently through med school, and now speak fluent Spanish. This skill has saved me a thousand times in clinical situations, I have given my patients better care, and I got a competitive fellowship position partly because of my language skills. I can look back and honestly say that learning Spanish was the single most useful thing I could have done as a pre-med. And I already spoke French and Russian, which have been near-useless.

There have been a couple of times when I desperately wished for ASL fluency, but a hundred times more when I wished for Vietnamese, Farsi, Hmong, or Lao. You have to know your community.

= /thread

 

[proclus]

People who claim fluency in a foreign language without being truly fluent are perhaps my worst pet peeve.

I have undergraduate degrees in two foreign languages, and in addition I speak damn good Chinese and fair-to-middling Japanese & Korean.

That being said, I would NEVER claim fluency in any language I speak except English.

The ONLY languge 99.99% of people should EVER claim fluency in is there mother tongue, or tongues if they happen to have the good fortune of being bi-lingual from birth.

I put into a special category Scandinavians, Germans, and residents of the Benelux who very often speak English as a second language at a level approaching genuine fluency.

If I am ever in the position of an interviewer I will without a doubt call out any American who represents to speak a language fluently that I also happen to speak.

In my experience most people who have put in serious time learning foreign languages feel the same way.

It's like trying to wear the long white coat without having the MD behind your name.

 

[phltz]

People who claim fluency in a foreign language without being truly fluent are perhaps my worst pet peeve.

I have undergraduate degrees in two foreign languages, and in addition I speak damn good Chinese and fair-to-middling Japanese & Korean.

That being said, I would NEVER claim fluency in any language I speak except English.

The ONLY languge 99.99% of people should EVER claim fluency in is there mother tongue, or tongues if they happen to have the good fortune of being bi-lingual from birth.

I put into a special category Scandinavians, Germans, and residents of the Benelux who very often speak English as a second language at a level approaching genuine fluency.

If I am ever in the position of an interviewer I will without a doubt call out any American who represents to speak a language fluently that I also happen to speak.

In my experience most people who have put in serious time learning foreign languages feel the same way.

It's like trying to wear the long white coat without having the MD behind your name.

Oh, that's nonsense. You can absolutely become fluent in a language after childhood. I know plenty of people who have done it. I lived in East Africa for several years, and I got pretty thoroughly comfortable with Swahili. Was I fluent? Maybe. The language certainly just flowed, without stopping to mentally translate or think about it. It became transparent. I didn't have as wide of a vocabulary in Swahili as I did in English, and I wasn't quite as expressive, but I did pretty damned well.

And I knew Americans and Europeans who spoke far better Swahili than I did.

I did meet students who were doing a semester or year abroad in Africa, some of whom had been studying Swahili for years in America. I was consistently astounded at how bad they were at actually doing or saying anything to anyone. So you probably have a point, in that no amount of study in a classroom is likely to make you fluent. If you want to learn a language well, you need to go somewhere where you need to speak it to communicate with people.

Spend a year in China (and not in the standard, "I'm living abroad, but I'm still in the stupid expat bubble" way), and it'll do more for you Chinese skills than years of study. Will you fluent? Sure, why not. What does that even mean, anyway?

 

[proclus]

Oh, that's nonsense. You can absolutely become fluent in a language after childhood. I know plenty of people who have done it. I lived in East Africa for several years, and I got pretty thoroughly comfortable with Swahili. Was I fluent? Maybe. The language certainly just flowed, without stopping to mentally translate or think about it. It became transparent. I didn't have as wide of a vocabulary in Swahili as I did in English, and I wasn't quite as expressive, but I did pretty damned well.

And I knew Americans and Europeans who spoke far better Swahili than I did.

I did meet students who were doing a semester or year abroad in Africa, some of whom had been studying Swahili for years in America. I was consistently astounded at how bad they were at actually doing or saying anything to anyone. So you probably have a point, in that no amount of study in a classroom is likely to make you fluent. If you want to learn a language well, you need to go somewhere where you need to speak it to communicate with people.

Spend a year in China (and not in the standard, "I'm living abroad, but I'm still in the stupid expat bubble" way), and it'll do more for you Chinese skills than years of study. Will you fluent? Sure, why not. What does that even mean, anyway?

I respectfully disagree.

My standard for fluency is signifantly higher than what you are promulgating here.

 

[phltz]

I respectfully disagree.

My standard for fluency is signifantly higher than what you are promulgating here.

You could decide that the word "fluent" actually means "brushes one's teeth left-handedly, but tweezes one's eyebrows right-handedly", and then very few people would be fluent. You could rail against people who claimed to be fluent but weren't, and you'd be absolutely right, to yourself. But it would be a massive waste of your time to talk to anyone else about it, because you'd be using your own made-up definitions that are different than the accepted standards.

Fluent refers to speech that flows, like a fluid. It comes smoothly, generally correctly, and expressively, with normal pacing and intonation. It is not marked by excessive pausing, stuttering, thinking, translating, or circumlocutions designed to work around linguistic gaps.

If you're going to use your idiosyncratic, incorrect definition of the word "fluent", at least have the common sense not to have, as one of your biggest pet peeves, a gripe with people that use it according to the definition that is 1) commonly accepted in use by native English speakers, 2) written down in general-purpose English dictionaries, and 3) used as specialized vocabulary by linguists and speech-therapists.

 

[QofQuimica]

My standard for fluency is signifantly higher than what you are promulgating here.

Your "standard for fluency" is also significantly higher than the ILR scale that the US government promulgated. A person who achieves proficiency level three is considered as being able to speak that language, with level five being a native speaker.

He didn't explain, other than that's a "checkbox" for him. He also said he asks people what they're currently reading, besides course literature, and subtracts points for people who don't have an answer. Said something about keeping literature uptake diverse, so I assume it's more about a culturally diverse applicant.

Getting back on track here....two things. First, no one is going to argue that learning a second language isn't a useful skill for physicians. It is. My experience has been that patients really appreciate it when I speak to them in Spanish. Even if I need to get some help from the translator now and again, seeing me make the effort counts for something with them.

Second, and more important in this context, learning a second language primarily for the purpose of pleasing this one admissions dean is not a good use of your time and effort in terms of making your app as competitive overall as possible. I mean, he also counts off points if you don't read literature. So then why aren't you this fixated on spending a couple of hours to read a book for pleasure? In terms of the cost-benefit analysis, reading a book will give you much more benefit for much less effort than studying a foreign language will!

Keep in mind too that most schools do not ding you for lacking either of these factors. However, almost all schools *will* ding you for subpar MCAT/GPA/clinical experience. If you don't have all of those things in order, you'd do best to focus on them rather than on any other EC. Speaking ten languages fluently and being able to recite the Bhagavad Gītā whilst standing on one foot with your eyes closed ain't gonna do your app nearly as much good as a 30+ MCAT and a 3.5+ GPA will.

 

[proclus]

You could decide that the word "fluent" actually means "brushes one's teeth left-handedly, but tweezes one's eyebrows right-handedly", and then very few people would be fluent. You could rail against people who claimed to be fluent but weren't, and you'd be absolutely right, to yourself. But it would be a massive waste of your time to talk to anyone else about it, because you'd be using your own made-up definitions that are different than the accepted standards.

Fluent refers to speech that flows, like a fluid. It comes smoothly, generally correctly, and expressively, with normal pacing and intonation. It is not marked by excessive pausing, stuttering, thinking, translating, or circumlocutions designed to work around linguistic gaps.

If you're going to use your idiosyncratic, incorrect definition of the word "fluent", at least have the common sense not to have, as one of your biggest pet peeves, a gripe with people that use it according to the definition that is 1) commonly accepted in use by native English speakers, 2) written down in general-purpose English dictionaries, and 3) used as specialized vocabulary by linguists and speech-therapists.

I disagree with your assertion that the accurate definition of "fluency" in any other CONTEXT is equivalent to the definition of "fluency" in the specific CONTEXT of post-adolescent foreign language acquisition.

Idiosyncratic does not equal incorrect, regardless of your anemic appeal to "common sense".

I'm afraid the majority aren't always right.

 

[proclus]

Your "standard for fluency" is also significantly higher than the ILR scale that the US government promulgated. A person who achieves proficiency level three is considered as being able to speak that language, with level five being a native speaker.

Since you cited the IRL scale, I feel obliged to point out that the only two places "fluency" is used in the above-referenced wikipedia article are in reference to ILR levels 4 & 5.

In my experience most people who claim fluency in an application do not even meet the qualifications for IRL level 3.

This is the root my pet peeve that you seem to have such a problem with.

 

[phltz]

I disagree with your assertion that the accurate definition of "fluency" in any other CONTEXT is equivalent to the definition of "fluency" in the specific CONTEXT of post-adolescent foreign language acquisition.

Idiosyncratic does not equal incorrect, regardless of your anemic appeal to "common sense".

I'm afraid the majority aren't always right.

So you recognize that you use an idiosyncratic definition of the word? How then do you justify that your worst pet peeve is people using the word in the sense that is widely accepted by lay people and also professional linguists and also speech therapists and also people that assess language proficiency for a living? You are just fabricating reasons to feel peeved as an excuse to feel smugly superior.

 

[proclus]

So you recognize that you use an idiosyncratic definition of the word? How then do you justify that your worst pet peeve is people using the word in the sense that is widely accepted by lay people and also professional linguists and also speech therapists and also people that assess language proficiency for a living? You are just fabricating reasons to feel peeved as an excuse to feel smugly superior.

I don't think that people who indulge in classic fallacies such as equating popularity with accuracy should be accusing others of "fabricating reasons to feel peeved as an excuse to feel smugly superior".

That being said, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[MeowMix]

the objection to the word "fluent" is valid. I agree with you 100% that the vast majority of us claiming to be fluent in another language are overrating our language skills.

In my case, it took 8 years, a lot of study, and living and studying Spanish in Mexico before I started using that term. I do not claim to be bilingual, which I consider to be a considerably higher level of proficiency.

"Fluent" is simply a convenient way of telling people that I never need an interpreter, my patients understand me, and I understand them. To Americans it has a particular meaning and context, and that is what I mean.

"Fluent" means I can discuss erectile dysfunction with a middle-aged Latino man, in Spanish, without embarrassing me or him. I can have an hour-long discussion about code status and hospice with 20 family members, with appropriate cultural context. I can counsel a woman who has just found out that her 39-week fetus does not have a heartbeat.

All of that, to me, is proficient enough.

 

[phltz]

I don't think that people who indulge in classic fallacies such as equating popularity with accuracy should be accusing others of "fabricating reasons to feel peeved as an excuse to feel smugly superior".

Popularity and accuracy are totally separate things when one is talking about facts relating to the real world, like the mass of the moon, or whether Barack Obama was born in the US. Language, however, is socially constructed. A word has meaning because people understand it to have that meaning. A word is correctly pronounced or spelled a certain way because people understand it to be. There is no other authoritative reality to reference. The fruit named "orange" was originally "norange". At some point people started mishearing "a norange" as "an orange", and so they started using the word as "orange" in other contexts, like saying "three oranges" instead of "three noranges". Was it a mistake? Maybe. But the fact of the matter is that everyone thinks the word is "orange" now, and so if you ever want to actually communicate with anyone about an orange, you'd better call it "orange". "Orange" is considered the correct word, for the simple reason that it's the popular word. It's the word that the populace understands, uses, and considers correct. When it comes to language and meaning, popularity is, in fact, accuracy. It's not a fallacy, it's a simple fact.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I have heard the same thing the OP posted from several schools. If you can speak a second language you are points ahead. When all other things are similar, the person who can speak a second language will come out ahead. Say a school has 1 spot left, two candidates: first 32 MCAT, 3.5 GPA no second language, second, 29 MCAT, 3.3 GPA speaks Spanish well (we'll not say fluent, but can do OK), I would put a lot of money down the Spanish speaker will get the seat... As such, I have been listening to Spanish lessons in my car when I am commuting... I figure it can't hurt if asked to say I'm working on it by doing such...

 

[proclus]

the objection to the word "fluent" is valid. I agree with you 100% that the vast majority of us claiming to be fluent in another language are overrating our language skills.

In my case, it took 8 years, a lot of study, and living and studying Spanish in Mexico before I started using that term. I do not claim to be bilingual, which I consider to be a considerably higher level of proficiency.

"Fluent" is simply a convenient way of telling people that I never need an interpreter, my patients understand me, and I understand them. To Americans it has a particular meaning and context, and that is what I mean.

"Fluent" means I can discuss erectile dysfunction with a middle-aged Latino man, in Spanish, without embarrassing me or him. I can have an hour-long discussion about code status and hospice with 20 family members, with appropriate cultural context. I can counsel a woman who has just found out that her 39-week fetus does not have a heartbeat.

All of that, to me, is proficient enough.

MeowMix, you and I are on the same page.

phltz, I'm afraid I find your endless analogies specious at best; again, agree to disagree.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I have heard the same thing the OP posted from several schools. If you can speak a second language you are points ahead. When all other things are similar, the person who can speak a second language will come out ahead. Say a school has 1 spot left, two candidates: first 32 MCAT, 3.5 GPA no second language, second, 29 MCAT, 3.3 GPA speaks Spanish well (we'll not say fluent, but can do OK), I would put a lot of money down the Spanish speaker will get the seat... As such, I have been listening to Spanish lessons in my car when I am commuting... I figure it can't hurt if asked to say I'm working on it by doing such...

Not where I went to school (I spent a lot of time interviewing students). The higher GPA and MCAT matter far more than the GPA and MCAT that are both bellow the national average for accepted students--even with mad Spanish skills. BTW, my medical school has a formal course in medical Spanish, so it's a skill that is recognized as important, but not one that surpasses basic numerical requirements for the M.D. program.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Fair enough, I'm certain it depends on the school. However, most of the schools I have looked at have high populations of Spanish-only speakers, and it is very important to those schools. The UMN will consider people more if they speak Hmong or Somalian because the Minneapolis/St. Paul area are loaded with people from those areas who don't speak any English, and the languages aren't popular in school curriculum... For the record, where ever you went to school probably isn't on my list as I am a non-trad with a low initial GPA, and not likely to even make the initial cut at such a school....

 

[phltz]

MeowMix, you and I are on the same page.

phltz, I'm afraid I find your endless analogies specious at best; again, agree to disagree.

So what makes your definition of the word "fluent" correct, and everyone else's wrong?

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Our definitions matter less than the AMCAS and particular schools definition of fluency. Likely their definition is based on ability to carry on a conversation without significant difficulty.

 

[LingoLaine]

Whoa... I'm not going to enter the discussion defining "fluency," but would guess that a lot of applicants probably list languages they have no business listing on AMCAS.

Personally, I have studied French, German, and Japanese. I'm also a native speaker of Norwegian who grew up mostly in California. My Japanese is useless but my French and German are pretty decent. (I do okay with them when traveling.) That said, although I would have loved to get some kind of "credit" for my French and German knowledge, I wouldn't dream of listing them on AMCAS.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

It would be nice if they had level of speaking ability instead of fluent or nothing. I wouldn't dream of putting French in as a language I speak fluently, although I can still read it well. Either way, I don't do toooo bad at it, but I can no longer carry on a conversation. Regardless, I think the school will likely mean you are conversational...

 

[QofQuimica]

Not where I went to school (I spent a lot of time interviewing students). The higher GPA and MCAT matter far more than the GPA and MCAT that are both bellow the national average for accepted students--even with mad Spanish skills. BTW, my medical school has a formal course in medical Spanish, so it's a skill that is recognized as important, but not one that surpasses basic numerical requirements for the M.D. program.

Likewise on all of the above. Second languages are nice to have, but at this school, there is only one language that might affect your admission odds if you're not fluent in it. That would be English.

"Fluent" is simply a convenient way of telling people that I never need an interpreter, my patients understand me, and I understand them. To Americans it has a particular meaning and context, and that is what I mean.

"Fluent" means I can discuss erectile dysfunction with a middle-aged Latino man, in Spanish, without embarrassing me or him. I can have an hour-long discussion about code status and hospice with 20 family members, with appropriate cultural context. I can counsel a woman who has just found out that her 39-week fetus does not have a heartbeat.

There is much more to being able to do these things than just pure fluency in the second language. I have not discussed code status or hospice arrangements with a patient by myself yet in *English*, let alone in another language. At this point, I can usually complete an H & P in Spanish by myself, but I still always take a translator with me whenever possible. A lot of times, the translator stands off to the side and watches me do the H & P. Do I "need" the translator? I would argue that yes, I do. Not because I can't speak Spanish, but because I'm still learning the skills needed to become an independent physician. My status as a trainee in and of itself increases the potential for miscommunication and misunderstandings between patients and me, in *any* language.

 

[murfettie]

I'm a medical interpreter for Mandarin Chinese. English is my second language that I learned from age 13 and on.

From the perspective of a medical interpreter, I want to let everyone know that if you don't speak the language super fluently, meaning, like studying solidly for 5+ years, lived in the environment at least a few years, Let the interpreting department at your hospital handle it.
There are so many times (this is usually for Spanish) where our Spanish interpreter leaves a call exasperated because the physician speaks okay Spanish, but their okay Spanish was obstructing the interpreter who are bilingual. This doesn't really happen with Chinese since few physicans could claim that they are conversational in Chinese. So they don't even try. Living in a place for 1 year or 2 does not make you fluent enough to handle patients.

 

[mafunk]

Sign language is pretty easy to learn. That's a good choice.

I grew up with Spanish, Dutch and English but am very rusty. I'm working on reviving my spanish and also thinking about studying more Sign Language using a CD program I bought my son.

I agree, speaking another language or two is very useful in serving patients and from what I can tell, is useful in the application. Today we had two spanish speakers come into the clinic. Our clinic has a couple FT interpreters, but still I get to practice with our spanish speaking patients.

 

[proclus]

i'm a medical interpreter for mandarin chinese. English is my second language that i learned from age 13 and on.

From the perspective of a medical interpreter, i want to let everyone know that if you don't speak the language super fluently, meaning, like studying solidly for 5+ years, lived in the environment at least a few years, let the interpreting department at your hospital handle it.
There are so many times (this is usually for spanish) where our spanish interpreter leaves a call exasperated because the physician speaks okay spanish, but their okay spanish was obstructing the interpreter who are bilingual. This doesn't really happen with chinese since so few people could even clean they are conversational in chinese. Living in a place for 1 year or 2 does not make you fluent enough to handle patients.

+1!

 

[JapaneseSakura]

How many of you are working on learning a second language as you balance work, family, and school life?

After the dean of admissions of a local med school said he asks in every interview what their second language is, and if they don't have one, that puts them points below people who do, I'm scrambling to learn something beneficial.

I'm thinking of sign language and I assume it could come in very handy as a doctor.

I was trying to take Chinese. I originally speak Japanese and English and thought it will be easier for me since, considering both languages are not similar, but the grammatical structure is similar. It's just, Chinese has more characters and particles than Japanese! So, yes, I did try to balance learning that and studying for my MCAT and working a lot. It was pretty difficult. I had to make a schedule for myself and take it a little bit at a time. The thing about Asian languages (or any languages like that) are, you have to consider the characters/particles as well and there are over 1,000s you should know :S.

The thing is, second languages are excellent to have! Especially Spanish, Russian, Chinese, and Sign Language in America. But like someone said before, you have to be fluent in English in America to practice medicine here. My Japanese will mainly be good enough for Japan, not too many Japanese residence in America, only in California, Washington, and Ny. Pretty limiting. Also, if you plan to practice medicine overseas in addition to the US, contact someone who's in charge of that to put you in the right direction. I know in Japan, you need to know Japanese and pass the language test, JPLT level 1 and take a Japanese USLME sort of test @_@.

 

[spiderpete]

I'm a medical interpreter for Mandarin Chinese. English is my second language that I learned from age 13 and on.

From the perspective of a medical interpreter, I want to let everyone know that if you don't speak the language super fluently, meaning, like studying solidly for 5+ years, lived in the environment at least a few years, Let the interpreting department at your hospital handle it.
There are so many times (this is usually for Spanish) where our Spanish interpreter leaves a call exasperated because the physician speaks okay Spanish, but their okay Spanish was obstructing the interpreter who are bilingual. This doesn't really happen with Chinese since so few people could even clean they are conversational in Chinese. Living in a place for 1 year or 2 does not make you fluent enough to handle patients.

I would say that I fall inthe "ok" spanish group, and I doubt my Spanish will get to the level of what true interpreters can handle. My question for those of you with more experience:

Are the interpreters routinely available in an ED?
How available are they elsewhere inthe hospital?
Is there not some value in a doctor having at least coversational rapport with a non-english speaking patient?

 

[BAMF]

Just to add another question to the pile, what about literacy as opposed to fluency? I can speak Thai and Laos, but I can barely read or write. Just wondering how you think that factors into things, and if it's something that should be mentioned when talking about fluency.

 

[murfettie]

I would say that I fall inthe "ok" spanish group, and I doubt my Spanish will get to the level of what true interpreters can handle. My question for those of you with more experience:

Are the interpreters routinely available in an ED?
How available are they elsewhere inthe hospital?
Is there not some value in a doctor having at least coversational rapport with a non-english speaking patient?

An interview about interpreting in medical setting at Bellevue. This hospital budgets 25 mil a year for interpreting services.
(In my application to NYU, I really wanted to write. If you take me, I'll probably save you some money during clinical rotations... Hah)

http://www.wnyc.org/articles/slideshows/2010/mar/08/hospitaltranslator/

NYU is on the forefront of this area since it serves an incredible amount of monolingual patients, so they really try to get it right.

The way I understand most major hospital is that they have staff interpreters for on-site, and you usually need to call for appointments with the interpreting services department, especially for end of life, elderly/hard of hearing patients. They work 9-5 M-F. Regular hours. However, usually, that is not enough and there is always the wards at night, people having babies, and the emergency department. So, every hospital has a contractor that provides this service via telephone. There are a few very prominent companies that provide this service across the nation.

So, this telephone service is available anywhere there is a phone. Your interpreting deparment will give you a card with instructions and pass code so the srv will be billed back to your hospital.

There is value in building a rapport with a patient. Greetings. How are you feeling after the cataract surgery. Oh, your daughter is so cute. Sit down. You could undress, but just the top part, etc.

The part that is often requires fluency is the more in depth kind. It's the conversation AFTER "What brings you to the hospital today". If you have a strong relationship with a patient, and you know this person's physical history very well, then for most routine stuff you might not need an interpreter. However, how many times you have asked a patient a simple question in a H&P and the patient goes on and on about some stuff? Often patients reveal information that is relevant, but these things can sometimes be difficult to detect without a very high level of fluency.
Slurred speech/confusion sometimes is hard to detect for non-native speakers as well. Often, the patient knows you are not a native speaker, and will try to shorten their answers to make it easier for you, but when they begin talking to me, they go blah blah blahblah blah... so there are definitely things missed when they try to make it convenient for the physician.

If you are at a teaching hospital, your hospital has this service for sure. Use it you are not sure.

I hope I answered your question. I have you have more, please ask. I have done this for a couple years now and I try to educate healthcare providers (or future ones about this) whenever I get a chance.

Last word, I personally feel if you are conversational and doesn't go hMM hhh huh.. ahhh... a lot during a conversation in a language, you can list it on AMCAS, but this certainly differs from the level of fluency to handle a medical situation.

 

[murfettie]

I had 8 years of formal education in China, a mom who is a doctor and who actually talks about glaucoma, cataracts, TB all day at home. I have tried to improve my Chinese to a more mature style and lived in Beijing as an adult, yet when shadow Chinese physicians, their speech is just so.. doctory.. Hah hah. It's still different. I think it is very interesting.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

How did I know this thread would turn into an argument over semantics...

 

[spiderpete]

Thanks Murf! I will leave it at greetings and pleasantries and have the pros on hand whenever i can.

 

[NurWollen]

I was a Mormon missionary in a Spanish speaking country for two years. I am so grateful to have had the opportunity. I really feel there is a bond between two humans communicating in what is a second language for one of them that is lost when communicated in a foreign language. I didn't appreciate this fully until I came back to the United States. It is simply such a thrilling experience being able to communicate with such a large and diverse part of the US population in their own language. I recommend learning Spanish to everyone, not just because it is useful but because it is fun. Hispanics are usually so flattered when I speak Spanish with them.

Sure, when I came back I was overly adept with religious vocabulary and lacking in other areas, but after using Spanish on the job and in literature classes, etc my vocabulary has become and continues to more well rounded. As I enter the medical field I am confident that I will be immersed enough in the language to communicate effectively about medical issues with my Spanish-speaking patients.

A lot of people, I think, see Spanish as a regional advantage, but I truly believe that there is not a single hospital or city in this country where Spanish would not be useful. Just look at this article from CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/24/census.hispanics/index.html

Really, to everyone, I think its worth learning. And don't just try to pick up a phrase book and go from there. Get down to the nitty gritty, learn the grammar. People say its hard, but really, we're premeds. If you can pass O-Chem, you can learn a language. Learn all you can, and the medical field itself will immerse you in it.