Nontraditional student

[Rose1222]

Hello,

I am considering a PhD in Psychology. This will be a second career; I am currently a tax attorney (32 years old), and would like to move toward a career that is more fulfilling and aligned with my interests and values. My undergrad GPA was 3.89 (magna cum laude) and law school GPA was 3.34 (cum laude). I am interested in learning more about being a research psychologist, focusing on behavior and cognitive development. I had minored in psychology in undergrad and recently became interested in and involved with health and wellness, and am considering a focus in health psychology (specifically, how diet, nutrition and lifestyle impact behavioral and cognitive development). I am very new to this, and have some questions regarding the application process, PhD programs and career options:

Application Process

1. I believe most programs have a deadline of around November or December for fall admission in the following year. Is this correct? When is the best time to apply?
2. For the GRE, I am considering Kaplan or Princeton. Which would you recommend?
3. How many schools do most students apply to?
4. How can I increase my chances of getting in as a nontraditional student? Given my background and GPA, would there be a greater emphasis on my GRE score?

PhD Programs

1. Should I focus on general psychology or hone in on schools that specifically have a health psychology program?
2. I realize that the program will be a huge time and financial commitment. I expect that the program will cost $100-200K total (for 5 years). Does this sound right? How likely is it that scholarships / grants cover any of this?
3. Can someone explain the grant process? How likely is it that I will receive a grant during the program? Which programs / schools are more likely to offer grants?
4. In terms of geography, I am looking at schools in CA or in the south (TX, FL). I live in NYC now and would like to avoid the midwest / northeast.
5. Do I need to have a set focus / topic in mind before applying? If so, how specific should my focus be prior to applying? Will there be any guidance in the program regarding sharpening the dissertation topic / issue?
6. Do I need to figure out if I'd like to do clinical vs. research before applying?

Career Options

1. Other than academic (if I decide to take the research route), what other career options are there, i.e., working in a medical facility?
2. If I focus on research psychology, would I still be able to take clients and do clinical work?
3. I've read that health psychology careers are increasing at a faster rate than general psychology careers. Is this true and would you recommend doing a general psychology program over a health psychology program?
4. If I wanted to talk to current students / shadow a research psychologist now, what would be the best way to do that?

Anything else I should consider and/or look into?

Thank you in advance.

Rose

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[bostongal109]

*disclaimer- many generalizations here *

First off- Do you have research experience? You will need research experience and demonstrate your interest in this new field. It seems like a big jump to want to do research if you have never done research.
Secondly- have you considered forensics? There are a few Ph.D/JD programs you could look at, obviously you have the JD piece, but can get your Ph.D. there and would have a better shot of getting in than in a different field.

AP-
1. They just need to be in by the deadline. That means GREs submittied, references, transcripts, etc. It doesn’t necessary help you have them in earlier like in med school.
2. I did Kaplan- but there are threats about that.
3. 8-15
4. you need research experience, posters, publication if possible, and yes, a high GRE score. They need to be sure this isn’t just some whim you’re going on.


PhD-
1. typically you apply to clinical psych programs that have research, emphasis, concentration, or a track for health psych. It’s more important to have a solid foundation before narrowing your specialty.
2. Depends. PsyD’s have loams in that range, Ph.D’s are less (I think posted on here was around 50K on average for PhDs and 100 for PsyDs?). Ph.D’s should be fully funded, and you would receive grants and stipends, while working with faculty there. PsyD’s are different and most (but not all) are NOT funded.
3. Depend on the school and program. You have to look at each. PhDs offer do, PsyD’s not as much.
4. Don’t limit your geography, acceptance to PhD programs are about 2%, so you need to apply far and wide. PsyD you may be able to be more limited but still not guaranteed.
5. Yes. Quite specific. You don’t have to have your dissertation topic chosen, but the general area.
6. Yes because if you only want to do clinical work then you shouldn’t apply to a PhD program. You need to figure out if you want research, and how much of your education do you want to spend on that. PhD programs typically use the boulder model, which is “scientist-practitioner” versus PsyD’s which adhere to “practitioner-scholar.”


CO-
1. A ton. Figure out your interests and you can examine that later.
2. Yes
3. Everyone will tell you that you need to be a generalist before you can specialize. Also – health psych programs aren’t APA accredited, so it may cause problems further down the road.
4. Ask them.

Yes- Forensic psych. The APA has a law and psych branch and has the programs listed.

 

[clip.clop]

Application Process

1. Correct. There is no "best time"--just get it in by the deadline.
   
2. Barron's. Don't pay for more than a book and maybe some flashcards.
   
3. Most people I know apply to between 10 and 15 schools.
   
4. I don't think being a nontraditional student will hinder you unless you make it so. I actually believe being nontraditional gives you an edge in the realm of maturity, which is a big factor. I would imagine most people who care enough to examine your application with enough attention would notice that your GRE scores are much more recent and therefore would place more focus on those. So, I'd advise you to either get really awesome scores or do whatever damage control necessary to make sure they don't disagree with your good GPA.

PhD Programs

1. I'm biased, but I would recommend clinical health psychology programs. Health psychology programs without the "clinical" portion are relatively new and I think your job prospects would suffer from not having the "clinical" portion in there. I could be wrong, and I suppose it depends on what you want to do.
   
2. Again, I'm coming from a clinical applicant perspective, and I realize some people don't like this outlook, but IMO: if you cannot get into a funded program (i.e., one where you'd incur little debt), there's a reason for that. Literally paying for a PhD is a bit of a waste of time in many ways, and you'd likely be better off to find a more viable way of achieving your career goals. A good option might be to get into a Master's program to increase your competitive edge before jumping into a paid-for PhD.
   
3. That's a bit of a crap shoot of a question. Depends on the school, specialty, POI(s), and many other factors.
   
4. That's fine, but if your dream or best fit school is somewhere in those areas, I would get rid of the moratorium(s).
   
5. Yes. You should know what you want to do/research and why. You should have specific career goals. You should also be open to opportunities and keep in mind that things change. You should, too, be well-versed enough in your specialty to be able to make it translatable into somewhat adjacent interests. Example: Say you want to research the role of exercise in relieving severe depression. You should also be open to researching the role of exercise in relieving other factors that contribute to or mimic severe depression.
   
6. Yes.

Career Options

1. Plenty, but there are more for "clinical" health psychologists. Without an ability to do clinical work, you're not going to fit very well in a clinic. You'll need accreditation for that.
   
2. If you want to.
   
3. Yes, and I'll reiterate what I've already said and what bostongal109 said throughout that post.
   
4. This is going to be a crap shoot, but yeah--asking is the best way. I've worked for people that are super happy to mentor new people, and I've worked for people who don't even respond to these sorts of emails/requests. (Be advised: being a psychologist doesn't preclude anyone from being a dick.) Look for volunteer or internship opportunities, or try and get a paid job as an RA. Be advised that most aren't going to be too gung-ho about letting someone in on their work without some sort of commitment and you'll likely need a fair deal of supervision. There would also probably be a considerable learning curve.

 

[Rose1222]

Bostongal and Clip,

Thanks for your response. Here is some additional information:

• I am aware of forensic psychology, but I have no criminal law background (aside from one criminal law class and an evidence class in law school) or interest in it, and so I don't think it's the right fit. The classes I enjoyed more in law school were negotiation and a mediation clinic (which involved talking to, and finding a mutually agreeable solution, between debtors and creditors at the county courthouse).
• I have some research / writing experience (albeit not in psychology). In my current position, I research and draft tax law research material (historical law and current day rules on specific topics) that is published and distributed on a subscription basis to others practicing in the field. After doing this for a few years, I realized that I would rather research and write about something I am really interested in. I had a research methods in psychology course in undergrad, which I really enjoyed and did well in, but it has been a while, so I'd likely need a refresher.
• I recently got a health consulting degree, and I am seeing clients now to help them with their diet, nutrition and lifestyle goals. Since I have an ongoing interest in psychology and had minored it in, I thought it made sense to combine the two interests. Do you think it's worth highlighting this when I apply?
• I think you both have a fair point about limiting options due to geography, and will take this into consideration.
• It seems that you both are saying that I need to have a focus and I need to decide whether I want to do clinical vs. research before I apply. Am I understanding that correctly? Is "impact of diet and lifestyle on behavior and cognitive development in children" a strong enough focus or should I narrow it down further?
• I realize this is a drastic career change, and I am looking into it now and asking questions so I can get more information to avoid going on a whim. Psychology has always been an interest (I was reading psychology textbooks sua sponte at age 10), and while I do realize that an interest doesn't necessarily translate into a career, it's an option that I want to learn about and explore now. I do want to appear serious, but most importantly, I want to make sure it's the right decision/path for me. I think what happens sometimes is that when people get older, they realize what's important to them and what their true interests are. In my case, I chose law because it's what I was told is a "good career" (by family, friends) and because it was stable. And while it has been a good experience and I am good at it, I never really enjoyed the material. I minored in psychology so I could still learn about something that I was truly interested in, but I am at a point where I'd like to do something I am more interested in and would enjoy rather than just continue doing something that is stable.

 

[ellecruz]

.

 

[FLpsychstudent]

Ellecruz, I think that you might be able to get in if you apply now, but personally I would just try to get the RA position and then apply. Then you are almost guaranteed to get in it sounds like, given you raise your GRE a bit. Also, in my experience, people don't care that much about your age. I think some many actually prefer older applicants. Also, honestly 30 is not that "old" for applying to phd programs. A decent amount (like half I think) of people in our current first year cohort are in their late 20s. It's not that unusual...I guess I want to say if that is what is holding you back from waiting to apply, then I don't think that is a good reason. If your other reasons are important enough to you (e.g., getting out earlier, starting a family, etc.) then that may be more of a factor in your decision.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I was a non-trad. student when I applied (transitioning from biz/tech consulting). I had been away from traditional research for a number of years, but I was able to shape my narrative to highlight what I could bring to the table. I had database skills, management experience, I/O experience, etc…so that helped make up for my limited research (2yr of undergrad research, but no posters/pubs/etc).

Your personal statement will need to account for why you are transitioning, as well as how your prior experience could be beneficial in a new setting. It'll probably take a few drafts/edits, so make sure to have a few people look at it before you submit.

You'll also need to get a better handle on what is involved in a research career and how your interests fit with each mentor/program. You don't need to know exactly what you want to study and in what setting, but fit is SUPER important, so the people reviewing your application need to have a good feel about what you want from your training and how that training fits w. their faculty.

 

[deleted343839]

• It seems that you both are saying that I need to have a focus and I need to decide whether I want to do clinical vs. research before I apply. Am I understanding that correctly? Is "impact of diet and lifestyle on behavior and cognitive development in children" a strong enough focus or should I narrow it down further?

Yes, ideally you should have some solid career goals in mind before applying to programs. Good programs usually admit small cohorts, and therefore "fit" is very important in the admissions process where you might be up against a large number of qualified applicants. Having a clear idea of what you're there for as a trainee is looked upon favorably. You should do more research and/or networking to learn more about the day-to-day work of a clinical psychologist versus a developmental psychologist.

But let's say research is your thing. Depending on the kinds of questions that interest you, you might also consider public health. For instance, you might be interested in whether children who were breastfed have better language development than non-breastfed children; expertise in developmental psychology would help you design appropriate studies to answer that. But for the so-called "10,000 foot view" type questions, say, how neighborhood walkability and access to recreation facilities is linked to school achievement in young children, that could be examined from a public health perspective.

I'm not saying you have to have your exact research questions in mind when you are starting your training. But you should narrow down the kinds of problems you would like to be working on (ie, working one-on-one with people trying to change behaviors; studying developmental influences on cognitive functions; designing and evaluating programs to improve developmental outcomes, etc.).

 

[ellecruz]

@FLpsychstudent and @Therapist4Chnge - Thanks for your input! I will apply for the positions and see what happens.

 

[undertoad]

@ellecruz

I'm also going to be a nontraditional applicant, but take solace in the fact that I'm even older than you are! I did the whole traditional undergrad thing back in the day, then joined the military. I'm 32 now and am going back to school for a B.S. in psychology. If I get into grad school when I want, I'll be 34 years old. I think you're making the right decision about taking the RA position. Grad school is always going to be there.

 

[ellecruz]

@undertoad thanks for sharing! even applying for RA jobs is daunting. sometimes it seems even harder than getting into a PsyD program.. i've applied for a few RA roles within the past week (outside my current lab) and haven't heard back. i have yet to hit the "submit" button on the application for my current lab - will do by end of this weekend. kind of obsessing about making it perfect.

best of luck with the grad school application process!

 

[futureapppsy2]

I actually wouldn't consider 27 "non-trad" age for a PhD program. IME, about half of PhD cohorts are people in the 25+ age group, as many programs prefer people to have full time research experience, students get masters degrees and work for a few years (especially in counseling psych, school psych, etc), etc.

Anecdotal, but one of the students in my PhD program was actually 56 when she started the program! She had worked as a masters-level service provider and then administrator in early childhood intervention services for many years. She also taught as an adjunct at colleges and wanted to go back for a PhD at some point, but life kept happening. A few years ago, while working as an administrator, she met a doc student who used her intervention program for data collection. The doc student went on to get a faculty position and a large federal grant and recruited her now-advisee to come and earn her PhD, funded by the grant. The student says that it was obviously a big transition--and pay cut--to go back to grad school at that point, but she's done well in the program, and her years of clinical and administrative expertise bring a really interesting perspective. (I've wondered if the switched power dynamic between them would be weird, but they seem to work together really well, so apparently not).

 

[smalltownpsych]

I was 36 when I entered the doctoral program and when talking to one of the 24 year old students she said, "I wish my dad was more like you." that was probably the worst effect of being "non-traditional". Being put into the "dad-zone"

 

[473912]

I was 36 when I entered the doctoral program and when talking to one of the 24 year old students she said, "I wish my dad was more like you." that was probably the worst effect of being "non-traditional". Being put into the "dad-zone"

I'm 31 myself. I think that worked in my favor as I chatted with my interviewer during my interview that I really "had my **** together" more so than a lot of applicants. While a lot of younger applicants are finding themselves, I have a lazer-focused goal.

 

[undertoad]

I'm 31 myself. I think that worked in my favor as I chatted with my interviewer during my interview that I really "had my **** together" more so than a lot of applicants. While a lot of younger applicants are finding themselves, I have a lazer-focused goal.

I'm really hoping the whole "laser focus" thing will work in my favor as well. I've recently gone back to undergraduate school to complete all the pre-reqs I ignored in my misspent youth as an English major, and I have to say it's been interesting. Kids these days, and all that. Not that I was really much different back in the day.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

With notion of lifelong learning and age extension based on healthy living many of us will live long lives. Age range of graduate student is broad and you will see more 40, 50, and 60 year old doctoral level students. With student loans paying the tuition for a doctoral degree is no longer a hurdle. I worked many years as a school psychologist and returned to work on my doctorate in my 50's after my kids were grown. It was a difficult tasks and I am actually in better physical and mental health in my 60's.

Age is relative and you will always be adapting and changing throughout your life.

I would not think someone in their thirties as being non traditional but someone in their 50 and 60 as being non traditional. I remember when I was in my 20s in my school psych program a retired minister in his 60's was working on his PhD. He finished and worked into his 80's as a psychologist.

Many Universities and geriatric programs are developing partnerships and allowing seniors to take courses with free or reduced tuition.

 

[undertoad]

With notion of lifelong learning and age extension based on healthy living many of us will live long lives. Age range of graduate student is broad and you will see more 40, 50, and 60 year old doctoral level students. With student loans paying the tuition for a doctoral degree is no longer a hurdle. I worked many years as a school psychologist and returned to work on my doctorate in my 50's after my kids were grown. It was a difficult tasks and I am actually in better physical and mental health in my 60's.

Age is relative and you will always be adapting and changing throughout your life.

I would not think someone in their thirties as being non traditional but someone in their 50 and 60 as being non traditional. I remember when I was in my 20s in my school psych program a retired minister in his 60's was working on his PhD. He finished and worked into his 80's as a psychologist.

Many Universities and geriatric programs are developing partnerships and allowing seniors to take courses with free or reduced tuition.

Thanks for sharing your background! That's pretty inspirational. It's good to see that people of diverse ages, with a wide range of life experiences, are being admitted to these programs. Even being comparatively young, I'm sometimes afraid admissions committees will look askance because I didn't follow a direct path to grad school. I don't think I'd be the same person if I didn't have those seemingly unrelated life experiences though, and I think I'd be less prepared to handle the stressors of graduate school.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

The mindset is more approving of non traditional students in current day. You have to meet the same standards as younger students and they want to peg you as being unworthy claiming you won't be able to utilize your degree to benefit society as will a younger person. Some dynamics depend on the staff and program. Since I had worked as a School Psych all those year, testing courses were a breeze and the 32 year old faculty teacher used many of my reports as samples for future students.

I'm now 61 and fully licensed and starting a private practice. My dream from in my 20's when I was in grad school for school psych.

 

[undertoad]

@OneNeuroDoctor Could you go into a little more detail what you mean regarding the view that nontraditional students won't be able to benefit society? That's one stigma I've never heard.

To give you a little background about myself, I did the whole traditional undergrad thing, graduating with a B.A. in literature and writing. Did well - drank the institutional Kool-Aid and was on track to pursue an MFA. Then I took a good hard look at the situation and realized it wasn't the life I wanted. Worked for awhile in the civilian sector, then joined the military for six years. Life experiences prior to and during my military experience led me to consider a career in clinical psychology, with a focus on working with veterans of OIF/OEF. I took a bunch of psychology classes online at a community college while I was in the service, and I've been accepted into an undergraduate program to finish a B.S. in psychology (they accepted so many of my previous credits that it will only take me a year and a half). So, I'm hitting the same wickets I would have as a younger student. I've been considering a career in human services since I was 23, and I know that I am far more focused and better socially adjusted now than then. I'm also very grateful for my military experience, moving me from the vague "I want to help people" to having a clearly defined goal for research and clinical work.

 

[smalltownpsych]

@OneNeuroDoctor Could you go into a little more detail what you mean regarding the view that nontraditional students won't be able to benefit society? That's one stigma I've never heard.

Sounds like ageism to me! I tell people that I got a late start in my career and am looking for an early retirement!

I was actually just talking to my newly licensed colleague who is only 15 years out from high school which was when I went back to school to be a psychologist. We talked about how the life experience I gained has been of great benefit. Of course, she also has 15 more years of productive career potential while I spent about 10 years getting into a lot of trouble so I am thinking that it all balances out somehow.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Well, given the life span, I was in school six years, a year of internship and another year of postdoctoral, so I am starting newly licensed when many of my friends have retired or are close to retiring. Younger students did not think it was fair to have a fellow student who could be their parent and transference and counter transference is frequent. Awkward as during some of my first day of a class other students often thought I was the teacher when entering the classroom as rarely was I not the oldest person in the class. One benefit from a historic perspective was I had attended conferences where Carl Rogers, Albert Ellis, and other historical theorist and this allowed me to have real life perspective and providing personal insight when covering their theories in class.

Additionally, employers are hesitant to hire someone my age...age discrimination is real!

 

[WisNeuro]

Why would younger students not think it's fair to have a fellow student who could be their parent?

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Why would younger students not think it's fair to have a fellow student who could be their parent?

It may not be universal phenomenon, but when you are older and experienced, younger students or colleagues may have jealously of these factors. I was a home owner and had a good job with a good income. Don't get me wrong, I had to work hard to earn the degree and frequently faculty seemed to have higher expectations of me than younger inexperienced students. I had a somewhat hybrid role being both teacher and student and some faculty members had some insecurities of me being in their classes and I had some transference and counter transference issues with both faculty and students. Some practicum supervisors as well tended to have insecurities and defenses related to claiming I would not accept supervision, but when you are older by twenty or more years than your supervisors, these issues come up.

You will know what it is like when you get older into your fifty and sixties. I was similar to younger students attitudes towards older students when I was in grad school in my twenties but when I returned in my fifties, I was a completely different person.

 

[473912]

It may not be universal phenomenon but when you are older and experienced, younger students or colleagues may have jealously of these factors. I was a home owner and had a good job with a good income. Don't get me wrong, I had to work hard to earn the degree and frequently faculty seemed to have higher expectations of me than younger inexperienced students. I had a somewhat hybrid role being both teacher and student and some faculty members had some insecurities of me being in their classes and I had some transference issues with both faculty and students. Some practicum supervisors as well tended to have insecurities and defenses related to claiming I would not accept supervision, but when you are older by twenty or more years than your supervisors, these issues come up.

You will know what it is like when you get older into your fifty and sixties. I was similar to younger students attitudes towards older students when I was in grad school in my twenties but when I returned in my fifties, I was a completely different person.

I think younger students might think it's unfair due to a confidence of older students. Especially if you already have an intellectual curiosity, you've already developed well-reasoned opinions on things. So when they come up, you defend them with strength and swiftness because you've heard this bs before. At least that was my experience. I constantly got that I was intimidating. Everyone wanted to be my partner but no one wanted to be counter to me. But I'm not intimidating, name calling, interrupting, etc. I make a purposeful effort not to interrupt and understand the other's position. But... like I said, in some issues, been there, done that.

That's my experience, anyway.

 

[WisNeuro]

Definitely not a universal phenomenon from my experience. I've had older students in my program, and also supervised older students myself. Have not had that experience, nor heard about it from others.

 

[undertoad]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Gives me a lot to think about.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I think younger students might think it's unfair due to a confidence of older students. Especially if you already have an intellectual curiosity, you've already developed well-reasoned opinions on things. So when they come up, you defend them with strength and swiftness because you've heard this bs before. At least that was my experience. I constantly got that I was intimidating. Everyone wanted to be my partner but no one wanted to be counter to me. But I'm not intimidating, name calling, interrupting, etc. I make a purposeful effort not to interrupt and understand the other's position. But... like I said, in some issues, been there, done that.

That's my experience, anyway.

Well, you also have to be open to your opinion being wrong/limited, in the face of compelling, legitimate empirical evidence, just like every other student or professional in this field should be. Even if it contradicts your own personal experience, sometimes you may just be an outlier.

Also, people can be intimidating on any number of dimensions, regardless of age. For example, I find my cohortmate who I mentioned above intimidating wrt to her years of clinical/administrative experience and expertise. I find one of my close friends and collaborators intimidating wrt to her awesome, prestigious post-doc. I find one of my faculty incredibly intimidating wrt to her... well, excellence in pretty much every dimension. Ironically, some of these same people have told me that they find my publication productivity intimidating. So, maybe this field is just constant co-varying intimidation.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, you also have to be open to your opinion being wrong/limited, in the face of compelling, legitimate empirical evidence, just like every other student or professional in this field should be. Even if it contradicts your own personal experience, sometimes you may just be an outlier.

Very good point. Sometimes a student who cannot take feedback or criticism, really can't take feedback or criticism, I don't see why every type of conflict is automatically a "transference" issue on part of the supervisor. This isn't directed at this thread in particular, just a general pattern of posts on this board. Makes it look like there are only bad supervisors, and never bad supervisees.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I highly doubt that any of my cohort were intimidated by me even though I was older than most of them. Of course, one of my key strengths is that I am naturally very approachable and non-intimidating. This can be a weakness in some areas where I want to exert some authority and have had to work hard to develop that. I think that there are lot more variables that go into the interactions and age is probably not the most important one. Since I looked like a teenager during my twenties and early thirties, I am glad that I have aged a bit because it can help people take me more seriously, but the more important thing is for me to take accountability for that myself and not pass it off to an external, immutable locus of control.

 

[473912]

Well, you also have to be open to your opinion being wrong/limited, in the face of compelling, legitimate empirical evidence, just like every other student or professional in this field should be. Even if it contradicts your own personal experience

Very good point. Sometimes a student who cannot take feedback or criticism, really can't take feedback or criticism.

I couldn't agree more.