Norway Bombed Ruled Insane

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surftheiop

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/29/world/europe/norway-terror-suspect/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

"He was psychotic at the time of the attacks and during 13 interviews experts conducted with him, they said. He suffers "grandiose delusions" and "believes he is chosen to decide who is to live and who is to die," police announced, saying psychiatrists had found Breivik paranoid and schizophrenic."

So not unexpectedly the Norway attacker is ruled insane. I know we shouldn't discuss specific cases, so I have a general question.



Does committing this sort of crime with these sort of motivations essentially guarantee that someone is insane? I find it hard to make up a hypothetical example of someone committing these same attacks and not being considered insane.

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It shouldn't.

I don't know what the NGRI laws are in Norway. They could be more lenient vs. the U.S. In the U.S., in most states, iwe follow the M'Naughten rule meaning that in general, the NGRI standard is someone has to be of a mental state where due to a "mental disease or defect" they did not know the difference between right vs. wrong during the exact moment they commited the act.

Some easy examples of an NGRI: schizophrenic guy holds a what he believes to be a tree branch (that in reality is a gun) and shoots someone, killing them; guy kills someone sincerely believing that person is Satan (due to mental illness) and that he's saving the human race by killing the victim.

Some easy examples of something that is not NGRI: Person has pathological gambling and robs a bank to fund his gamling problem, someone is depressed and decides to get it on with a hooker as a form of "therapy" to ease his depression.

In some states, there is no NGRI allowed. They got fed up with malingerers getting good press and getting an NGRI through the court so the state legislature actually got rid of it. In these states it's called guilty but mentally ill. Despite this phenomenon, it's actually rare for someone to get a successful NGRI plea and the public perception that this is common is more the result of such cases getting a lot of press. (Kinda like a jackpot ringing. Most people are losers, but the one winner's machine bells and whistles through the roof).

In one state, they actually have a legal standard that so long as the crime was somehow connected to a mental illness, you can use an NGRI plea. So in this state, someone robbing a bank to fund his gambling problem, well you could actually use an NGRI defense, and the law is supposed to give it to you. (Yeah I know, crazy, but that state still hasn't changed their laws on it. As one of my forensic psychiatry profs said, if you want to rob a bank, go there).

My personal opinion, only based on what we see in the news, and I believe this is still within professional guidelines because I'm not giving a real conclusion: there certainly were things about him begging the question that he was schizophrenic (or had some other type of psychosis) but they were also within the realm of having extreme political beliefs that were not due to mental illness. I would've had to investigate the case more to come to a conclusion.

Reason why I say this, and most of you might not be aware of this not having lived in Europe, is there is an emerging faction of people that are extremely Islamophobic. They are in several people's minds a 21C equivalent of the Nazi movement. While we don't see this in the U.S. news, if you read European news all the time, here and there you see occasional mentions of this movement. It's small enough for most Americans to overlook it.

He suffers "grandiose delusions" and "believes he is chosen to decide who is to live and who is to die,"

That in and of itself is not grounds to say someone is "insane" under the M'Naghten standard. Several Nazis from WWII had this belief with regards to Jews. Several rapists believe they have the right justified by force to rape others. A Klansman would've had that view of an African American during a lynching.

That is not to say the Norway ruling was wrong in a legal sense. I don't know their legal standards, and their mental health experts that investigated this case may have had knowledge I didn't know about that was significant in their decision making process.
 
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I read his "manifesto" a few months ago, and nothing suggested he was psychotic. He took widely held beliefs among the European far right and acted on them. He knew that the people he was killing were innocents, and he knew that what he was doing was gruesome.

Obviously we're missing most of the picture so I can't say something more definitive before reading the full report which unfortunately won't be available until April I believe, but I really, really hope that those delusions the psychiatrists are refering to are not his belief that Europe is being overrun by immigrants and that the left is co-operative.
 
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Does committing this sort of crime with these sort of motivations essentially guarantee that someone is insane? I find it hard to make up a hypothetical example of someone committing these same attacks and not being considered insane.

Absolutely not. I'd argue that the vast majority of people who claim to be "insane" are not. The success rate (if you can call it that) of NGRI in the USA is incredibly low. I think whopper is correct in questioning their standards because at face value this guy was an extremist...not insane. Most Westerns underestimate the lengths at which people will go to support their ideology. It may appear illogical, irrational, or even "crazy" to hold such an extreme view, but they still know the difference between right and wrong...they just believe their Right outweighs any Wrongs that may occur for them to complete their objective.

Since whopper has already invoked Godwin's Law...I'll stick with Nazism for my example. A Nazi may believe a person of a particular background/religion/orientation/etc. is different than themselves, and their value as a person is less than someone within their own group. They may hold a range of beliefs based off of this judgment, but that doesn't make them insane…that makes them racists/bigots/homophobics/etc. If their views (and actions) are severe enough, they can be deemed a hate group..not a group of people who are insane. If they believed that a particular person was the reincarnation of the Devil who used mind control to dictate their thoughts..then there may be worth something exploring further, but anything short of that is poor rationalization to affirm their extremist belief(s).

Europe has gotten very scary in recent years in regard to the anti-Islam movement. Elections have been won by riding momentum of the movement, and there appear to be more hate crimes against people who identify as Islamic. From what I have heard about this case, I think this decision was a political one…and not one based on the stringent parameters that typically apply to NGRI cases. I am not familiar with the laws of Norway, so maybe under the interpretation of their laws this was the correct call, but it is doubtful the same result would have happened in the USA. I am very interested in reading the report, whenever it becomes available.
 
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Maybe I was reading too much (or too literally) into some of his statements. But didn't he say he believed he was part of the Knights Templar in addition to being some sort of messiah?

Its entirely possible that he was just talking of the Knights Templar figuratively, but I thought I remember reading something that made it look like he genuinely thought he was selected by them to liberate Europe or something to that extent.
 
Maybe I was reading too much (or too literally) into some of his statements. But didn't he say he believed he was part of the Knights Templar in addition to being some sort of messiah?

Its entirely possible that he was just talking of the Knights Templar figuratively, but I thought I remember reading something that made it look like he genuinely thought he was selected by them to liberate Europe or something to that extent.

No, I think he was being clearly figurative. He even stresses in one part the importance of symbolism to rally people around him. For someone so keenly aware of why he's doing this (for political purposes), I have to say I still can't stomach that decision.
 
Some easy examples of something that is not NGRI: Person has pathological gambling and robs a bank to fund his gamling problem, someone is depressed and decides to get it on with a hooker as a form of "therapy" to ease his depression.

He was certainly complex.
"Nevertheless, screwing around outside of marriage is after all a relatively small sin compared to the huge amounts of grace I am about to generate with my martyrdom operation. And it is essential that you do what is required to keep moral and motivation at a high level; especially, just prior to operation critical moments. I have reserved 2000 Euro from my operations budget which I intend to spend on a high quality model escort girl 1 week prior to execution of the mission. I will probably arrange that just before or after I attend my final martyrs mass in Frogner Church. It will contribute to ease my mind as I imagine I will get tense and very nervous. It is easier to face death if you know you are biologically, mentally and spiritually at ease"
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Europe has gotten very scary in recent years in regard to the anti-Islam movement. Elections have been won by riding momentum of the movement, and there appear to be more hate crimes against people who identify as Islamic. From what I have heard about this case, I think this decision was a political one…and not one based on the stringent parameters that typically apply to NGRI cases. I am not familiar with the laws of Norway, so maybe under the interpretation of their laws this was the correct call, but it is doubtful the same result would have happened in the USA. I am very interested in reading the report, whenever it becomes available.

Maybe I'm the only one to see the irony of some of the low level xenophobia here given the crime at hand. The idea that politians interfere in the judiciary in Norway isn't really credible. The whole idea is fairly distasteful and rather dubious to say the least. In fact it is redolent of and rather a mirror image of a certain sort of French anti-Americanism.
The reality is that the number of hate groups is growing in the US as well as Europe. The extent to which this is effecting the political process is doubtful anywhere in Europe. You get more people with extreme views in elected office because proportional representation is more common. That is the whole point of a representative democracy? (even when it is distasteful). A handful of zealots don't make a government though. Certainly no one as right wing as G Bush has got their hands on the levers of power in Western Europe and the tea party movement seems to have real power.
Sorry Therapist maybe I'm just jumping on your words unfairly. Perhaps I agree with the thrust of what you are saying but I'm not sure why anything that is happening in Europe is any more worrying than what is happening in the US. It is worth pointing out that Norway has no death penalty, no life terms and maximum terms of imprisonment as well. Vive la difference.

Its entirely possible that he was just talking of the Knights Templar figuratively, .

The way I read it he was a sub paying member.
 
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But didn't he say he believed he was part of the Knights Templar in addition to being some sort of messiah?

A problem here is that from what's known from this guy, at least per internet news sources, he's not claiming to be part of the Templars from the medieval era but a type of extreme right-wing group calling itself the Knights Templars that allegedly is small but made up of people just as extreme. (Hmm, maybe we ought to by them COBRA uniforms? Yes I'm talking the COBRA from the GI Joe cartoon).

Messiah? Problem here is he might've not meant it at a literal spiritual/supernatural one. He could've just meant it as a type of political liberator.

My use of Godwin's law was not meant to be extremist and using it is somewhat overdone, and I don't think people here interpreted that way. Everything extremists disagree with are often compared to Hitler or Nazism. Reason why I used it is the far-right in Europe is having a type of modern equivalence of that movement.

In Europe in the 30s, with the economic problems, it not being a multicultural society but one based on nations with a national identity more heavily based on race and culture vs. the U.S., and an angry population needing a scapegoat, well viola, that's what's happening today. Most Americans are not familiar with nomination of Le Pen in the French Presidential election and he actually made it to the main election, and the rise of Pim Fortuyn, a candidate that ran on nationalism and calling Islam a gutter religion.

IMHO, an economic meltdown could lead to a similar situation that occurred in Europe right before WWII. I don't think another WW will occur as a result of an economic meltdown but I do believe it could lead to the rise of groups wanting to target an ethnic minority and a rise of nationalism fueled by anger.
 
A problem here is that from what's known from this guy, at least per internet news sources, he's not claiming to be part of the Templars from the medieval era but a type of extreme right-wing group calling itself the Knights Templars that allegedly is small but made up of people just as extreme. (Hmm, maybe we ought to by them COBRA uniforms? Yes I'm talking the COBRA from the GI Joe cartoon).

Messiah? Problem here is he might've not meant it at a literal spiritual/supernatural one. He could've just meant it as a type of political liberator.

The trouble here is that we have a loner who left a very very long paper trail on internet forums and on paper. The mistake made in the media, and to an extent here, is the extrapolation of what this loner did and try to make out it has a wider political significance. Imo it does not. The correct comparator would be with the unabomber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski

In Europe in the 30s, with the economic problems, it not being a multicultural society but one based on nations with a national identity more heavily based on race and culture vs. the U.S., and an angry population needing a scapegoat, well viola, that's what's happening today. Most Americans are not familiar with nomination of Le Pen in the French Presidential election and he actually made it to the main election, and the rise of Pim Fortuyn, a candidate that ran on nationalism and calling Islam a gutter religion.

I thought someone might bring up Le Pen. Pim Fortuyn only does well becauses of proportional representation, the same with many smaller parties. How many far right congressmen would the US have if the US had proportional representation? With all the hate groups and survivalist types, minutemen, teaparty types and so on quite a few is my guess.

The British National Party got two MEPs in on a reduced vote and a low turn out. The press was full of it but in reality it is of very little lasting significance.

IMHO, an economic meltdown could lead to a similar situation that occurred in Europe right before WWII. I don't think another WW will occur as a result of an economic meltdown but I do believe it could lead to the rise of groups wanting to target an ethnic minority and a rise of nationalism fueled by anger.

I will say again this is a big digression and irrelevant extrapolation from the activities of a loner....however...it does highlight what I believe is a flawed analysis of the problems we face. Race, culture and religion are a side show.

One thing I would say is that the stop and search laws in Arizona look quite worrying from the outside. Racism against latino's seems to be the much bigger problem in the US. (?)

The economic chaos in Europe is going to lead to a strengthening of the Euro-area. Closer political union, Germany will demand it as the price of saving the Euro and bailing everyone else out. They will eventually have to accept the European Central Bank printing money at the risk of inflation but that is another matter. Quite the reverse of war though.

We could be in for a very nast war soon though. The US joint chief of staff was interviewed on UK TV last night and he restated the US position that Iran would not be allowed to become a nuclear power. That means one thing, the US is going to take preemptive military action. This is going to happen soon. Iran is not far off being a nuclear power. How far off who knows? But the next president is going to order a strike, I would put good money on it.

The crisis for the liberal democratic west at the moment is that the antidemocratic totalitarian countries like China and Russia hold all the cards/cash at the moment. If China decided the game was up and put all its T-bills up for sale it would be game over. The dollar would go and we would all have to go back to bartering with chickens and swapping sea shells.
 
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A problem here is that from what's known from this guy, at least per internet news sources, he's not claiming to be part of the Templars from the medieval era but a type of extreme right-wing group calling itself the Knights Templars that allegedly is small but made up of people just as extreme. (Hmm, maybe we ought to by them COBRA uniforms? Yes I'm talking the COBRA from the GI Joe cartoon).

Ah that changes things a lot, I probably should have read a little more. I thought he was claiming that a 800 year defunct group of crusaders had selected him to return to the battle field if you will.
 
As did I at first. Another reason why any analysis on this is only superficial from our parts. So far no one here is trying to pretend to be an expert on this, and we're all acknowledging that we can only go on what we're fed by the media, so no problem there.

Something indirect, most of the advances in the laws and psychiatry are built upon tragedies such as this. The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority >99% of people in the courts, legislature, and executive branches of government have no expertise in mental health. What usually caused an advance in a legal sense was a landmark case where a serious injustice occurred, and the courts had to try to make sense of the situation by making a landmark decision to change the way things are done. This is one of the reasons why psychiatry requires treatment plans...because psychiatric patients were often held against their will with no clearly delineated reason as to why and what was being done to help them while being involuntarily committed. The NGRI standards we have are mostly based on tragic events occurring and the court realizing the defendant was mentally ill and needing to make an intervention because the simply guilty or not guilty was not appropriate with no prior laws written before as how to handle the situation.

As for this case, it could be that Norway hasn't had much advances in this legal situation because they might not have had serious legal situations where an NGRI situation was closely examined. Again, I don't know exactly what the legal standards are in Norway, and to extrapolate they are similar to America without looking into them would be wrong. Our own law is based on the British civil law as a framework, with American laws being established on top of them since the formation of this nation. How the Norwegian legal system works in regards to mental health is an unknown to me.
 
As for this case, it could be that Norway hasn't had much advances in this legal situation because they might not have had serious legal situations where an NGRI situation was closely examined. Again, I don't know exactly what the legal standards are in Norway, and to extrapolate they are similar to America without looking into them would be wrong. Our own law is based on the British civil law as a framework, with American laws being established on top of them since the formation of this nation. How the Norwegian legal system works in regards to mental health is an unknown to me.

Well, the other possibility (quite likely) is that they have an even better system. Looks like this still needs to go to the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicene http://www.justissekretariatene.no/en-gb/Innhold/The-Commission-for-Forensic-Medicine/ for approval and then on to the court.

Looks like highly paid "suits" have to take a back seat in Norway. Quite sophisticated I would say.

As an aside, I visited some mental health services in Norway a few years ago and it was extremely progressive all the way around.
 
Looks like highly paid "suits" have to take a back seat in Norway. Quite sophisticated I would say.

I think the Conrad Murray case makes it readily apparent that when expert witnesses, even medical doctors already making six figures are paid through the roof, they'll be willing to say anything, including defending a doctor who gave out Ativan at high dosages and propofol for home use.

I've said this time and time again, I've seen forensic psychiatrists make arguments that were transparently FOS, even ones that have won awards and are at namebrand institutions. In fact one, that I will not name, is readily mentioned as a sell-out yet the guy keeps winning awards and recognitions.

There was a Supreme Court case where one of the Justices argued that expert witnesses should be neutral, not simply hired by one side. While I agree that would clean up the hired gun phenomenon significantly, per the Constitution, a defendant is in charge of their defense and to deny a defendant an opportunity to hire his own evaluator, especially since a neutral evaluator may do a piss poor job if hired by the state, I see that point as well.
 
I've said this time and time again, I've seen forensic psychiatrists make arguments that were transparently FOS, even ones that have won awards and are at namebrand institutions. In fact one, that I will not name, is readily mentioned as a sell-out yet the guy keeps winning awards and recognitions.

Unfortunately the "facts" often support the highest bidder. We are all taught to trust in objective data, but even that can be twisted to point one way or another. I am thankful for the rise in validity testing, though even that can be suspect in the wrong circumstances.

Do we know if formal assessment instruments (including validity meaures) were used in this case?
 
No idea.

A problem with expert testimony and psychiatry is a psychiatrist can see a person and say depression, psychosis, catatonia, what have you and still not be violating any professional ethics that can be externally validated though they could be lying through their teeth.

That's reason why I keep saying that people that want to go into forensic psychiatry should go into a program that teaches psychological testing to a degree where they can have some familiarity with it.
 
No idea.

A problem with expert testimony and psychiatry is a psychiatrist can see a person and say depression, psychosis, catatonia, what have you and still not be violating any professional ethics that can be externally validated though they could be lying through their teeth.

Clinical experience and professional opinion can be so subjective, and I cringe when I see a case that doesn't have some type of objective measures included. It isn't a foolproof approach, but I think it makes it harder to lie.

That's reason why I keep saying that people that want to go into forensic psychiatry should go into a program that teaches psychological testing to a degree where they can have some familiarity with it.

It is evident by your prior posts about forensic work that you have received top-notch forensic training, though I'm just not sold that "some familiarity" is the bar we went to set for expert testimony involving foresnic assessment. It is akin to acting as a neurosurgeon and having "some familiarity" with the brain.
 
I think the Conrad Murray case makes it readily apparent that when expert witnesses, even medical doctors already making six figures are paid through the roof, they'll be willing to say anything, including defending a doctor who gave out Ativan at high dosages and propofol for home use.

I think that is why the Norwegian example is so instructive, you can pay someone to say anything but if the Forensic Board don't approve it then its is inadmissable. That seems fair.

There was a Supreme Court case where one of the Justices argued that expert witnesses should be neutral, not simply hired by one side. While I agree that would clean up the hired gun phenomenon significantly, per the Constitution, a defendant is in charge of their defense and to deny a defendant an opportunity to hire his own evaluator, especially since a neutral evaluator may do a piss poor job if hired by the state, I see that point as well.

The funny thing here is how the Constitution seems to have become inviolate with a semi-sacred status rather than a living document that changes as society evolves. The right to buy justice or bankrupt yourself in the pursuit of it seems enshrined and a fair trail no matter who you are seems a secondary consideration. Something has gone wrong.

It always fascinates me that the war of independance was all to do with preserving the rights of Magna Carta 1215 as much as anything else. My favorite supreme court ruling contains this in the summing up...

If one assumes, however, that the PGA TOUR has some legal obligation to play classic, Platonic golf—and if one assumes the correctness of all the other wrong turns the Court has made to get to this point—then we Justices must confront what is indeed an awesome responsibility. It has been rendered the solemn duty of the Supreme Court of the United States, laid upon it by Congress in pursuance of the Federal Government's power [t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, U. S. Const., Art. I, § 8, cl. 3, to decide What Is Golf. I am sure that the Framers of the Constitution, aware of the 1457 edict of King James II of Scotland prohibiting golf because it interfered with the practice of archery, fully expected that sooner or later the paths of golf and government, the law and the links, would once again cross, and that the judges of this august Court would some day have to wrestle with that age-old jurisprudential question, for which their years of study in the law have so well prepared them: Is someone riding around a golf course from shot to shot really a golfer? The answer, we learn, is yes. The Court ultimately concludes, and it will henceforth be the Law of the Land, that walking is not a fundamental aspect of golf.

Just found some of his other great lines here....

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Antonin_Scalia

On Judicial activism: The Court must be living in another world. Day by day, case by case, it is busy designing a Constitution for a country I do not recognize....Brilliant!
 
Sometime I'll write some of the more interesting Supreme Court decisions regarding mental health including one where the APA told the Supreme Court to not have psychiatrists predict future violence, saying they had no real expertise in this matter, and the Court said something to the effect of.....

--->Well someone's got to do it, might as well be psychiatrists.

Although it was written is much more "official" sounding rhetoric.
 
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