NYP Surgery

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ctsurgery293

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Hi,

If there is any resident here from NYP (columbia/cornell) please let me know as I do have 2 inquiries about their residency programs, as I am planning to take electives their?

Thank you in advance

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I'm a Columbia student and have rotated at both hospitals.

To pre-empt things-- please don't take offense-- but your written English makes me think you're not a US student. You should know that Columbia, to their detriment, has more or less a blanket policy against interviewing FMGs. (There is one British grad in the program now-- who is fantastic-- and he came in as a PGY-3). Cornell will interview you if you rotate there and do very well but they are disinclined to match you to a categorical spot.

A letter from both would be helpful to a general surgery application.
 
I'm a Columbia student and have rotated at both hospitals.

To pre-empt things-- please don't take offense-- but your written English makes me think you're not a US student. You should know that Columbia, to their detriment, has more or less a blanket policy against interviewing FMGs. (There is one British grad in the program now-- who is fantastic-- and he came in as a PGY-3). Cornell will interview you if you rotate there and do very well but they are disinclined to match you to a categorical spot.

A letter from both would be helpful to a general surgery application.



Thank you for the reply. In fact, I am in the same situation and would like to apply for electives there. I am an IMG and currently I am doing some research in surgery. Do you think it is a must to do electives there to get an interview? And if they don't like to interview IMG at all, do you think it is waisting of time to even think about it, at a time I can apply for electives somewhere else with higher chances to get a cat. spot? Ah,,by the way, do they have minimum USMLE score?

Thanks.
 
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Cornell will interview you if you rotate there and do very well but they are disinclined to match you to a categorical spot.

A letter from both would be helpful to a general surgery application.


Ummm my classmate rotated at Cornell, had an honors in that rotation but was never invited for interview. So I won't go there with the hope of landing an interview.

However, it will be quite helpful towards your Gen Surg. application if you're able to secure an excellent LOR from Cornell.

-Gentle-
 
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That sounds scary. What about UCLA, do they have the same ''Anti IMG'' policy regarding interviews, prelim, cat. spots? I heard that the percentage of IMG there is 3% based on PD reports to the ACS website. Does any one have an idea how much accurate is that?

Thanks
 
Not to be completely rude, but you are asking about programs that are pretty reputable and that are located in two of the most desirable locations in the country. Programs like that will always be a tough match, even for competitive US grads, and especially IMG's.
While I don't think either is truly "anti-IMG," your native competition is always going to be stiffer on the coasts, making the number of IMG's accepted at most programs in those locations low. You need to decide what matters more to you; going to an academic program or location, because the reality of the situation is that you are likely not in a position to get both. I'd look at programs in the midwest and south if the academic path is your choice, or at community programs if you have to live where "life's happenin'."
Best of luck.
 
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Not to be completely rude, but you are asking about programs that are pretty reputable and that are located in two of the most desirable locations in the country. Programs like that will always be a tough match, even for competitive US grads, and especially IMG's.
While I don't think either is truly "anti-IMG," your native competition is always going to be stiffer on the coasts, making the number of IMG's accepted at most programs in those locations low. You need to decide what matters more to you; going to an academic program or location, because the reality of the situation is that you are likely not in a position to get both. I'd look at programs in the midwest and south if the academic path is your choice, or at community programs if you have to live where "life's happenin'."
Best of luck.

Agreed - Cornell, Columbia, UCLA - these are programs that get their pick of strong applicants each year. It is not a matter of being explicitly "anti-IMG" - but those programs are a tough match for anyone.
 
I would echo the sentiments above and recommend that in addition to applying for your "dream" programs (i.e. academic programs in desirable cities), you should also apply to once that are a little less competitive (community programs, less desirable cities, or both). Having said that, know that there are no truly "weak" General Surgery programs that should be seen as a "backup" or "safety" option.
 
Calm down guys. I don't know what I have said wrong. It is truth that some programs don't like to interview IMGs. It is sad, but truth, or it is the ugly face of the truth, in other words. I am not making any of that out. Look at the ACS website, and criteria of each program by the state. Look at the percentage of AMGs to IMGs at these ''big names'' hospitals. I know most of the cases you would find AMGs more competatives, but what would you say if I told you that I knew someone who was rotating with me in Miami, a graduate from Syria who is an MD from there, PhD from MSGME, and got high 99s step 1 nd 2. Plus, ''extraordinary'' LoRs. and lots of papers. I swear to God he had over 50 paper, not abstracts. Though, he didn't get even one interview. I am not saying prelim-vs-cat. And all what was behined that is the guy was graduated from a medical school in which all intstruction were in Arabic, not English. though his English is good. I am not saying he doesn't have an accent, but still difficult to notice that.

I know it might be one case and it is rare. But it is a truth guys.
 
While I don't think either is truly "anti-IMG," your native competition is always going to be stiffer on the coasts, making the number of IMG's accepted at most programs in those locations low.

I agree that LA is a tough match for an IMG, but New York City has all types of IMGs. There are lots of program there, and I think the crappiness of the environment outweighs the appeal of the big city. After looking at some off shores match lists, it seems New York is actually an easier match for IMGs than most midwest and southern programs.

I just looked at the ACS site, which is obviously not the most in-depth or reliable, but it shows that most of the programs in New York have IMGs, anywhere from 10% to 100%.
 
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I agree that LA is a tough match for an IMG, but New York City has all types of IMGs. There are lots of program there, and I think the crappiness of the environment outweighs the appeal of the big city. After looking at some off shores match lists, it seems New York is actually an easier match for IMGs than most midwest and southern programs.

I just looked at the ACS site, which is obviously not the most in-depth or reliable, but it shows that most of the programs in New York have IMGs, anywhere from 10% to 100%.

Perhaps, but not at Columbia or Cornell...
 
Calm down guys. I don't know what I have said wrong. It is truth that some programs don't like to interview IMGs. It is sad, but truth, or it is the ugly face of the truth, in other words. I am not making any of that out. Look at the ACS website, and criteria of each program by the state. Look at the percentage of AMGs to IMGs at these ''big names'' hospitals. I know most of the cases you would find AMGs more competatives, but what would you say if I told you that I knew someone who was rotating with me in Miami, a graduate from Syria who is an MD from there, PhD from MSGME, and got high 99s step 1 nd 2. Plus, ''extraordinary'' LoRs. and lots of papers. I swear to God he had over 50 paper, not abstracts. Though, he didn't get even one interview. I am not saying prelim-vs-cat. And all what was behined that is the guy was graduated from a medical school in which all intstruction were in Arabic, not English. though his English is good. I am not saying he doesn't have an accent, but still difficult to notice that.

I know it might be one case and it is rare. But it is a truth guys.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. We all recognize that many programs have a bias against FMGs/IMGs.

I believe the above responses, which you have misinterpreted, were noting that you had asked about NYP and UCLA - two of the most competitive programs in the US, for anyone, let alone FMGs/IMGs. Therefore, the advice was that you widen your horizons. After all, you yourself admit that a stellar candidate of your acquaintance who was unable to get interviews.

FMGs often overestimate their competitiveness. It just appears from your questioning that you are interested in some very competitive programs. No one doubts that bias exists and it may be most prevalent at such programs, especially when they could fill their residency classes with stellar US grads.

So yes, it is true that UCLA takes very few FMGs, especially as categorical surgery residents.
 
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FMGs (and, to some extent, IMGs) tend to place too much emphasis on USMLE scores (in particular, the two-digit score - which is NOT a percentile). And thus other equally important aspects of their applications - i.e. USCE and US LORs - go by the wayside.
 
FMGs (and, to some extent, IMGs) tend to place too much emphasis on USMLE scores (in particular, the two-digit score - which is NOT a percentile). And thus other equally important aspects of their applications - i.e. USCE and US LORs - go by the wayside.

yeah it wasnt until I did a rotatiom with st george students that i heard someone refer to the 2 digit score... we only ever talked about 3 digit score at my school. A 99 2 digit score on step 1 is around a 230 or so
 
A 99 is standardized to a slightly different score every year...when I was a med student you needed around a 238-240, minimum, to get a 99.

It seems that most program directors use the three-digit score.
 
FMGs (and, to some extent, IMGs) tend to place too much emphasis on USMLE scores (in particular, the two-digit score - which is NOT a percentile). And thus other equally important aspects of their applications - i.e. USCE and US LORs - go by the wayside.

This may be true, but I think the larger fact is that many programs prefer (some to the point of exclusion) to have graduates of American medical schools (MD or DO) rather than international medical school graduates (brilliant as they may be).

But that only makes sense, because it is the American system. Why wouldn't it favor graduates of American medical schools? If the Brazilian system were to favor Brazilian medical school graduates, I wouldn't be surprised or take umbrage.

To me, it is wise to prefer candidates that are intimately familiar with (and already part of) the system, the culture, and the language of the country in which the residency program exists. Medicine is not practiced in a vacuum: interactions with patients and colleagues are fundamental to successful doctoring or any kind (even path and radiology), and those interactions are likely to be smoother if they involve physicians who were raised in the US, speak native American English, and have been tutored to function within the American medical system.

The only folks that I think get a raw deal are the American expatriates who do their first two years in the Caribbean or elsewhere, get good USMLE scores, and good clerkship grades during their clinical years at US hospitals. I think they should be viewed the same as American medical school graduates.

Otherwise, I expect programs to eschew IMGs of any caliber unless they have no other viable options. Even genius IMGs with millions of publications may not have the mundane and perhaps intangible skills to succeed in a US residency and practice. Why should programs roll the dice?
 
The only folks that I think get a raw deal are the American expatriates who do their first two years in the Caribbean or elsewhere, get good USMLE scores, and good clerkship grades during their clinical years at US hospitals. I think they should be viewed the same as American medical school graduates.

I completely disagree.

This horse was beaten to death a long long time ago, so I won't rehash it here, but there's nothing wrong with US allopathic students getting preferential treatment.
 
This may be true, but I think the larger fact is that many programs prefer (some to the point of exclusion) to have graduates of American medical schools (MD or DO) rather than international medical school graduates (brilliant as they may be).

But that only makes sense, because it is the American system. Why wouldn't it favor graduates of American medical schools? If the Brazilian system were to favor Brazilian medical school graduates, I wouldn't be surprised or take umbrage.

To me, it is wise to prefer candidates that are intimately familiar with (and already part of) the system, the culture, and the language of the country in which the residency program exists. Medicine is not practiced in a vacuum: interactions with patients and colleagues are fundamental to successful doctoring or any kind (even path and radiology), and those interactions are likely to be smoother if they involve physicians who were raised in the US, speak native American English, and have been tutored to function within the American medical system.

The only folks that I think get a raw deal are the American expatriates who do their first two years in the Caribbean or elsewhere, get good USMLE scores, and good clerkship grades during their clinical years at US hospitals. I think they should be viewed the same as American medical school graduates.

Otherwise, I expect programs to eschew IMGs of any caliber unless they have no other viable options. Even genius IMGs with millions of publications may not have the mundane and perhaps intangible skills to succeed in a US residency and practice. Why should programs roll the dice?



With all respect to your openion, I would disagree to some extent. Let's talk about it clearly.

If a medical system would be biased towards its own native people cause simple they are familar with what is going on, and their selection is totally based on that criterion, it would be totally wrong. Simply cause the main reason behind the ''Match'' is to get the ''best doctor'' for the patient. NOT CAUSE THE PATIENTS ARE MOSTLY AMERICAN, IT HAS TO BE AN AMERICAN RESIDENT. WE ARE NOT IN MILITARY OR RUNNING FOR PRESIDENCY.

Now I can count for you 5 of my IMG friends who got scores, , a way higher than AMGs do, expetacular LoRs, US clinical Experience. Even they do have MRCS at a younger age. Though, they didn't get matched and AMGs who got lower scores and applications in general got matched. I am not saying that AMGs are not smart. No, they are, but if you got 2 grads, IMG and AMG, you will find the AMG matched with the best programs, even before passing step 2, and the IMG has to be with step 1 and 2, even in some states they have to take step 3 before they start residency.

The bottom line that's fine, I know it should be biosed to some degree and US is not the only country does that. But guys, you are missing the point that IMGs when they come here, they look also to advance their knowledge and practice. and I don't think they will sacrify by effort, time, and money and they don't know how to react to certain situation without language/social barrier. I am not talking about idot IMGs. I mean some IMGS who are really, really good, but they don't get any luck cause that is the way how it is.....!!!
 
The strange thing here is that the person who originally started this thread '' ctsurgery'' didn't comment at all.
 
With all respect to your openion, I would disagree to some extent. Let's talk about it clearly.

If a medical system would be biased towards its own native people cause simple they are familar with what is going on, and their selection is totally based on that criterion, it would be totally wrong. Simply cause the main reason behind the ''Match'' is to get the ''best doctor'' for the patient. NOT CAUSE THE PATIENTS ARE MOSTLY AMERICAN, IT HAS TO BE AN AMERICAN RESIDENT. WE ARE NOT IN MILITARY OR RUNNING FOR PRESIDENCY.

Now I can count for you 5 of my IMG friends who got scores, , a way higher than AMGs do, expetacular LoRs, US clinical Experience. Even they do have MRCS at a younger age. Though, they didn't get matched and AMGs who got lower scores and applications in general got matched. I am not saying that AMGs are not smart. No, they are, but if you got 2 grads, IMG and AMG, you will find the AMG matched with the best programs, even before passing step 2, and the IMG has to be with step 1 and 2, even in some states they have to take step 3 before they start residency.

The bottom line that's fine, I know it should be biosed to some degree and US is not the only country does that. But guys, you are missing the point that IMGs when they come here, they look also to advance their knowledge and practice. and I don't think they will sacrify by effort, time, and money and they don't know how to react to certain situation without language/social barrier. I am not talking about idot IMGs. I mean some IMGS who are really, really good, but they don't get any luck cause that is the way how it is.....!!!

your response alone shows how communicated word for non-english native individuals can be a huge issue with patient interaction (multiple typographical errors, which granted my post will probably have several). An example I like to use is in Psych, where wording of things make a difference, and comprehension and communication and social norms are all part of the OBJECTION examination... FMG's can not make the same judgements and don't know the language enough to understand the slight differences.

And like we discussed in the breast surgery thread of this forum, anyone can learn the technical skill to do a procedure, but what makes a breast surgeon more equipt to do a biopsy than a radiologist is the ability to communicate with the patient, that is frequently lacking in even the most brilliant FMG's... judging only on USMLE scores is poor, because besides the fact that the USMLE tests were not designed to compare individuals but to judge if someone has the minimum required knowledge base according to the NBME, scores are highly influenced by time of studying (which is why Caribbean medical students, who have a built in USMLE review course built into their schedule plus 8-12 weeks of study time should be expected to do better than AMG's who have 6 weeks or so to study and no dedicated review/teaching to the exam).

Caribbean students do get somewhat of a raw deal, but their curriculums are not regulated by the AAMC/LCME, the admission standards are below that of US med schools, the clinical rotations are, for the most part, far below par of that of US med schools (I have done several rotations at hospitals that are ancillary schools for my school but are the primary teaching hospitals for St. George's and they are much worse than the university hospital teaching experience...), so I see no reason why those schools should be viewed and treated the same as US med schools. I also agree that Osteopathic students/schools should not be viewed and treated the same as Allopathic students. I don't quite understand why Osteopathic students can participate in the Allopathic match, but, and I may be wrong, Allopathic students can't participate in the Osteopathic match. While they both are medicine and both will be highly skilled doctors (I actually believe Osteopathic students have a mastery of the physical exam that has been lost in Allopathic schools), the training is different and thus they shouldn't be viewed the same. They also, for the most part, suffer from a lack of University Hospitals, which makes clinical training suffer a bit, but it does make it ideal to go into Osteopathic programs... and if they prevented DO's from going to MD residencies, it would stop osteopathic schools from being, for many people, a backup for allopathic schools and instead attract people who actually believed in the tenants of osteopathic medicine... but that would just be crazy...
 
your response alone shows how communicated word for non-english native individuals can be a huge issue with patient interaction (multiple typographical errors, which granted my post will probably have several). An example I like to use is in Psych, where wording of things make a difference, and comprehension and communication and social norms are all part of the OBJECTION examination... FMG's can not make the same judgements and don't know the language enough to understand the slight differences.

And like we discussed in the breast surgery thread of this forum, anyone can learn the technical skill to do a procedure, but what makes a breast surgeon more equipt to do a biopsy than a radiologist is the ability to communicate with the patient, that is frequently lacking in even the most brilliant FMG's... judging only on USMLE scores is poor, because besides the fact that the USMLE tests were not designed to compare individuals but to judge if someone has the minimum required knowledge base according to the NBME, scores are highly influenced by time of studying (which is why Caribbean medical students, who have a built in USMLE review course built into their schedule plus 8-12 weeks of study time should be expected to do better than AMG's who have 6 weeks or so to study and no dedicated review/teaching to the exam).

Caribbean students do get somewhat of a raw deal, but their curriculums are not regulated by the AAMC/LCME, the admission standards are below that of US med schools, the clinical rotations are, for the most part, far below par of that of US med schools (I have done several rotations at hospitals that are ancillary schools for my school but are the primary teaching hospitals for St. George's and they are much worse than the university hospital teaching experience...), so I see no reason why those schools should be viewed and treated the same as US med schools. I also agree that Osteopathic students/schools should not be viewed and treated the same as Allopathic students. I don't quite understand why Osteopathic students can participate in the Allopathic match, but, and I may be wrong, Allopathic students can't participate in the Osteopathic match. While they both are medicine and both will be highly skilled doctors (I actually believe Osteopathic students have a mastery of the physical exam that has been lost in Allopathic schools), the training is different and thus they shouldn't be viewed the same. They also, for the most part, suffer from a lack of University Hospitals, which makes clinical training suffer a bit, but it does make it ideal to go into Osteopathic programs... and if they prevented DO's from going to MD residencies, it would stop osteopathic schools from being, for many people, a backup for allopathic schools and instead attract people who actually believed in the tenants of osteopathic medicine... but that would just be crazy...


Thank you for the respectful way that you used in discussing your opinion.
 
FMG's can not make the same judgements and don't know the language enough to understand the slight differences.

That is not a very very well thought out point to make. FMGs include, for example, British medical students (some of whom would argue that it's the Americans who "don't know the language enough", but that is a debate for another day) and others who do speak English as well as native speakers. Brits and other commonwealth folks also suffer from the FMG stigma. It's not just the language skills. It is a systemic bias.
 
I recently heard that it is the US government that pays the salaries of residents (feel free to chime in if this is either correct or incorrect). Therefore, it only makes sense to favor American-trained physicians. As far as Carib grads go, I feel that PDs are essentially looking for any reason to differentiate one applicant from another on paper and this is just another tool they have at their disposal. On paper, 200 applicants to Columbia, Cornell and/or UCLA are probably very similar looking and all qualified to be interviewed, but the more ways the PD has of "making piles" and distinguishing one applicant from another, the easier his or her job becomes.
 
That is not a very very well thought out point to make. FMGs include, for example, British medical students (some of whom would argue that it's the Americans who "don't know the language enough", but that is a debate for another day) and others who do speak English as well as native speakers. Brits and other commonwealth folks also suffer from the FMG stigma. It's not just the language skills. It is a systemic bias.

I was contemplating adding a caveot for non-english speaking FMG's, but dialect and phrases differ (they differ between Boston and New York too, but more managable between those two). I did include generalizations in my ramble, and they are not all true, but it is hard and time consuming and may not be all that worth it to PD's to see if it is true for each and every applicant
 
Simply cause the main reason behind the ''Match'' is to get the ''best doctor'' for the patient. NOT CAUSE THE PATIENTS ARE MOSTLY AMERICAN, IT HAS TO BE AN AMERICAN RESIDENT. WE ARE NOT IN MILITARY OR RUNNING FOR PRESIDENCY.

A few points, most of which thedrjojo has already made or at least intimated.

First, you do not need to be an American citizen to be in the US military; officers need to be US citizens, but enlisted soldiers are not so limited.

Second, I would venture that the USMLE and publications in scientific journals have almost nothing to do with being "the best doctor." The USMLE is not meant to differentiate among residency candidates, though it is used for that. The best doctor communicates seamlessly with her patients. This is difficult enough when both she and the patient are speaking the same native language; the difficulty increases exponentially when non-native speakers get involved. I do not mean that to be personal in any way; it's just a fact.

But guys, you are missing the point that IMGs when they come here, they look also to advance their knowledge and practice. and I don't think they will sacrify by effort, time, and money and they don't know how to react to certain situation without language/social barrier.

Third, I am not sure the exact meaning that was meant to be conveyed in this passage, but I think it illustrates the difficulties of communicating in a non-native tongue. Add to that the subtleties of culture (both generally as well as in medicine) and you can see why programs prefer natives.

Perhaps the meaning here is that IMGs wouldn't sacrifice their time, effort, and money to train in the US if they weren't qualified vis a vis language and culture. If only the world were full of such self-aware and self-sacrificing individuals. I think IMGs want to train in the US because they can make more money, because the training is better than in their native country, and because the freedoms and standard of living that Americans enjoy is unparalleled. Otherwise, why would they leave their native countries?

One anecdote. I was working as a tour guide in a developing nation. My responsibility was principally to guide Americans and other native English-speaking tourists. Now, I speak the local language with what I think is a great degree of fluency, though certainly I am no native speaker. I probably have the same command of my second language as drmjmh9999 has of English. One day we had a tour group of locals come (which was a rather rare event) to take our tour. I volunteered to give the tour because I thought it would be fun. My boss (a local himself) disagreed because he felt it would be 'disrespectful' to force the locals to listen to a non-native guide when native ones were readily available. I was miffed about it at the time (I felt it was a personal affront at first), but after pondering the situation I realized he was right. And that was for some silly tour. How much more important is it to have doctors that you can communicate with minus any added static of language.

That is not a very very well thought out point to make. FMGs include, for example, British medical students (some of whom would argue that it's the Americans who "don't know the language enough", but that is a debate for another day) and others who do speak English as well as native speakers. Brits and other commonwealth folks also suffer from the FMG stigma. It's not just the language skills. It is a systemic bias.

Fourth, certainly not all foreign medical school graduates are the same. I am just speculating here, but I would wager that British, Australian, and Canadian entrants into the US match fare better than score- and recommendation-matched controls from the non-Anglo heritage countries. And I think that's probably because they speak native English. (Someone chime in if that sounds off base.) What's more, the medical systems between the US and other English-speaking countries are quite different. The culture is often different in subtle ways. FMGs who come to the US are probably leaving behind their families and support systems. I think all of these factors tend to favor a program taking a US grad over other native English-speaking FMGs.

I recently heard that it is the US government that pays the salaries of residents (feel free to chime in if this is either correct or incorrect). Therefore, it only makes sense to favor American-trained physicians.

Fifth, an interesting point about Gov't funding of resident education.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves. The real bottom line is that plenty of FMGs do match in the US (like 3000+ in 2009: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf).
 
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You know, that might all be true.

On the other hand, in Columbia's case I think it's much more simple: they're snobs.

Blanket policies simply can't exist by dint of logic alone.
 
Svidrillion

Publications or USMLE as you said, has nothing to do with ''best doctor''. Though your ''Match'' system totally believes in it, and they are important factors for interviews. Not only these 2, but USCE and others.

If you think that US pays more money for doctors than other countries. I would advice you to take a look at a one month salary of any FRCS doctor who is working in any of the Gulf countries. Simply there is no comparison, the least thing I would mention is that they get a Tax-free income that Americans will not get. Not all of the IMGs' countries are of low standard;do you know that the Chrysler Building in NYC is not American anymore! It is owned by the government of Dubai, UAE. Do you know that about 80% of the fund to the CCF, (Cleveland Clinic new Heart Center) is coming from Dubai? So let's not talk about standard of living cause Americans to them are poor. The main reason why most of the IMGs like to practice in US is because of the advanced medical care, and medical training, standard of living is the last thing to mention here please.

I would agree with groo2001 that British grads are in the same boat. It is just a biased system.

I don't think that the residency is governmentally funded. I could be wrong, but what I know that not any of the big name programs is affiliated with the government as it is stated on the AMA website.
 
I don't think that the residency is governmentally funded. I could be wrong, but what I know that not any of the big name programs is affiliated with the government as it is stated on the AMA website.

Yeah I noticed that stuff about the government affiliation or lack thereof, but I've heard from numerous doctors that it medicare and/or medicaid funding is given to each teaching hospital to pay for residency positions (and that the hospitals all make money off of the residents because they can then choose the amount of compensation they are going to forward to the residents).
 
Residency funding comes from CMS (Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services) which is a taxpayer funded governmental program. It does not have to be at a "government" hospital. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the General Residency forums; if one is interested a search there will yield dozens of threads with very good information about how residencies are funded, most from aPD.
 
It is just a biased system.

My last comments on this subject. My original post in this thread was not meant to be offensive, nor was it directed at anyone in particular. Rather, I made a general observation about the match system. And on that issue, it seems that there is no fundamental disagreement here: the match system is biased toward US allopathic medical school graduates. However, it is my view that this bias is just and proper because those graduates are, on the whole, a better fit and make better doctors for Americans than IMGs. Wishing will not make it otherwise.

drmjmh9999, if I may be so bold, it appears from your preceding comments on the funding of American residency programs, the benefits and remuneration of foreign physicians working in "Gulf countries", as well as your rambling diatribe about the ownership of the Chrysler building and funding of the Cleveland Clinic, that you do not have much understanding or experience with the US medical system specifically and US culture in general (other than that gleaned from cursory web searches and hearsay). It seems simply that you are disgruntled about the difficulty IMGs have in matching because of some personal stake you may have in this issue, which does not allow you to comment objectively. I can understand that emotion. However, it does not make convincing rhetoric (nor do sentences in all capital letters). I suggest that unless you have some novel comments not already iterated with which to edify the discussion, that we call it a truce. I will go back to matching in the US system as an US allopathic graduate, and you can return to the much more lucrative and tax-free jobs of the "Gulf countries" to which we squalid Americans do not have access. All in all, I think you probably have the better end of the deal.
 
I will go back to matching in the US system as an US allopathic graduate, and you can return to the much more lucrative and tax-free jobs of the "Gulf countries" to which we squalid Americans do not have access. All in all, I think you probably have the better end of the deal.

Oh, wow. That really stings.
 
Fourth, certainly not all foreign medical school graduates are the same. I am just speculating here, but I would wager that British, Australian, and Canadian entrants into the US match fare better than score- and recommendation-matched controls from the non-Anglo heritage countries. And I think that's probably because they speak native English. (Someone chime in if that sounds off base.) What's more, the medical systems between the US and other English-speaking countries are quite different. The culture is often different in subtle ways. FMGs who come to the US are probably leaving behind their families and support systems. I think all of these factors tend to favor a program taking a US grad over other native English-speaking FMGs.

The bottom line is that there are significant differences in the training paradigms in US medical schools, Canadian schools, schools in other english- speaking countries and non-english speaking countries. Think of the above list as concentric circles with the US schools at the center. The greater the distance you are from that center, the more different your medical school training is from that in the US. It is easier to train a resident when you know his/her background. That is why most programs choose US grads over non-US grads. You know firsthand the standards of US schools and know that, in order to graduate from a US school, your potential residents have met those standards. The same cannot be said for graduates of other countries.

This isn't to say that the US schools have the best system. I'd argue that the Canadian students I've met have a much better clinical experience during medical school and are much more prepared to be interns than US graduates. However, I put the US at the center of the above illustration because that is the target of this conversation (US residencies). The hurdle non-US (and, for the most part, non-Canadian) students must overcome is they must demonstrate they have met those US standards. Unfortunately for them, that is typically done by outscoring most US students.

Another thing that was mentioned earlier but that I think warrants a repeat is that it isn't the obligation of the US residencies to train the world's physicians. While many FMGs come to the US for residency with the hopes of staying to practice, others plan to return home. Every physician trained that leaves is one less physician for US patients, and we all hear about the impending physician shortage in the US, so there isn't any real incentive to take a risk on a potentially stronger FMG who may or may not stay in the US to practice over a US grad who will almost certainly be staying in the country and who knows and understands the standards of US programs.
 
My last comments on this subject. My original post in this thread was not meant to be offensive, nor was it directed at anyone in particular. Rather, I made a general observation about the match system. And on that issue, it seems that there is no fundamental disagreement here: the match system is biased toward US allopathic medical school graduates. However, it is my view that this bias is just and proper because those graduates are, on the whole, a better fit and make better doctors for Americans than IMGs. Wishing will not make it otherwise.

drmjmh9999, if I may be so bold, it appears from your preceding comments on the funding of American residency programs, the benefits and remuneration of foreign physicians working in "Gulf countries", as well as your rambling diatribe about the ownership of the Chrysler building and funding of the Cleveland Clinic, that you do not have much understanding or experience with the US medical system specifically and US culture in general (other than that gleaned from cursory web searches and hearsay). It seems simply that you are disgruntled about the difficulty IMGs have in matching because of some personal stake you may have in this issue, which does not allow you to comment objectively. I can understand that emotion. However, it does not make convincing rhetoric (nor do sentences in all capital letters). I suggest that unless you have some novel comments not already iterated with which to edify the discussion, that we call it a truce. I will go back to matching in the US system as an US allopathic graduate, and you can return to the much more lucrative and tax-free jobs of the "Gulf countries" to which we squalid Americans do not have access. All in all, I think you probably have the better end of the deal.



Regarding to the ownership of the Chryslar Building, or the funding for the Cleveland Clinic, I would advice you to read the NY times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/nyregion/10chrysler.html?_r=1) (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/10/nyregion/10chryslergraphic.ready.html, and take a look on what is going since it is not the place to discuss that.
 
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Just for the record, I got a surgery prematch offer for a categorical spot at one of the top programs in the countries.

Really? Then why these posts earlier in the thread:


Thank you for the reply. In fact, I am in the same situation and would like to apply for electives there. I am an IMG and currently I am doing some research in surgery. Do you think it is a must to do electives there to get an interview? And if they don't like to interview IMG at all, do you think it is waisting of time to even think about it, at a time I can apply for electives somewhere else with higher chances to get a cat. spot? Ah,,by the way, do they have minimum USMLE score?

That sounds scary. What about UCLA, do they have the same ''Anti IMG'' policy regarding interviews, prelim, cat. spots?
 
Really? Then why these posts earlier in the thread:



I am a last year IMG med student. I posted before that I need to apply for electives cause I thought that my application was not strong enough to get surgery spot at a good program. Though, there is no need as I got the offer recently.
 
I am a last year IMG med student. I posted before that I need to apply for electives cause I thought that my application was not strong enough to get surgery spot at a good program. Though, there is no need as I got the offer recently.

So I guess the system is not so biased against IMGs after all. I'm still not sure why you'd give up that sweet job in Dubai to slum it over here in the States. I guess some folks are just committed to serving the underserved, whatever the cost. Oh, the humanity.
 
So I guess the system is not so biased against IMGs after all. I'm still not sure why you'd give up that sweet job in Dubai to slum it over here in the States. I guess some folks are just committed to serving the underserved, whatever the cost. Oh, the humanity.

Welcome back, I thought you won't post anymore after you said it would be your last time.

As I told you, many IMGs prefer here cause of the advanced medical care and medical expertise that doesn't present anywhere. If I looking for money, you probably won't see me posting here. But as my ultimate goal is to gain more experience I applied here for residency. I gave you an example of what is going on there just to let you know that not all overseas countries are desperate and they do have high standard of living, equal, may be better than most of the Americans.

For one to get a prematch offer that doesn't mean that others who are still good can get the same. I am talking about the main theme, not odd cases.

Anyhow, let's stop talking about what is in there and make it more productive talk by getting back to the main stream. And let's shift the topic to be, what IMGs should do to increase their chances in getting matched to good hospitals. If that posted somewhere else, I would suggest to close the discussion here cause of 2 reasons; first, the person who originally posted the thread didn't reply more than once, probably he got scared from what is going on here. Second, I don't like to argue more than that, it is getting ugly!

Just for the record, I apologize if any of my posts made any one angry or upset.

Thank you and have a good weekend
 
first, the person who originally posted the thread didn't reply more than once, probably he got scared from what is going on here.

Considering that both of you are posting from the exact same location and registered within 24 hours of one another, you might ask the OP why he isn't posting anymore. :rolleyes:
 
Considering that both of you are posting from the exact same location and registered within 24 hours of one another, you might ask the OP why he isn't posting anymore. :rolleyes:

Well, I don't know why he is not posting anymore. People get busy really easy, he is medical student, may be busy with study, family,,ect.... I don't think that I am the only one in my area who is sharing thoughts on this great website.
 
Thank you.

This is what we are talking about with language barrier.

Winged Scapula implyed that you were infact ctsurgery293 because, as an admin, she could see that you both created accounts on the same day and from the same computer/location (I assume she can see the IP address of the computer used to make the account which was the same).

SouthernIM's post, which you quoted, was saying that Southern would be skeptical about anything which YOU say, which is an insult and questioning your integrity.

Now, to further question you, you said you just recently got a prematch offer. If this is true, congrats. However, since programs needed to turn in their number of available slots to NRMP by Feb 1st, it is VERY rare for any prematch offers to come in after that date, since if they did not have a sure thing locked into a slot, they would let it be available for the match and thus not be able to offer any more prematches. It could be the situation where they had someone, it fell through and now they are left with an unfilled spot and can not put it in the match, but that is rare.
 
Now, to further question you, you said you just recently got a prematch offer. If this is true, congrats. However, since programs needed to turn in their number of available slots to NRMP by Feb 1st, it is VERY rare for any prematch offers to come in after that date, since if they did not have a sure thing locked into a slot, they would let it be available for the match and thus not be able to offer any more prematches. It could be the situation where they had someone, it fell through and now they are left with an unfilled spot and can not put it in the match, but that is rare.

Agree with all this - this is a big part of why I am skeptical...
 
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