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Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?
Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?
Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?
Depends on the situation. In the middle of a crisis, need to remain focused and in control. But if it during a discussion on end of life care and it is more of a sharing in the grief sort of thing I don't think it would bother you much.I might be an outlier here, but I wouldn't want my doctor to cry in front of me. Kind of seems like an admission of a lack of self-control. I'd want them totally in control... But hey thats just me.
I got a lot of this type of stuff working in surgery (in the South) before school. You can bet that even as a staunch atheist I still prayed with those patients/families because if doing something as simple as reciting some stuff from my childhood could make those people feel a little better on their worst day I would be remiss not to do it. It's about the patient and doesn't cost me anything.As for the prayer thing I think even the most vehement atheist doctor would do best to silently allow the patient to do their prayer rather than argue about it. If it is a devout XYZ follower asked to pray with a ABC follower the same thing applies. I doubt anyone's God is going to fault them for holding the patient's and bring quiet for a minute while the other person says some words..
I got a lot of this type of stuff working in surgery (in the South) before school. You can bet that even as a staunch atheist I still prayed with those patients/families because if doing something as simple as reciting some stuff from my childhood could make those people feel a little better on their worst day I would be remiss not to do it. It's about the patient and doesn't cost me anything.
n=1, but I would take...not exactly offense, but that would def make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't tell you, though, because I'd know you meant well. I would just probably confide in you less so as to prevent you from saying anything like that again.I've also done both. And I tell patients all the time that they'll be in my thoughts and prayers. As far as I know, no one's ever taken offense.
Give me a little credit, though, for being bright enough not to lead with that kind of stuff. I only move that direction when patients have indicated they're open to it. My job requires me to build rapport effectively in a very short time, and I will say that I'm pretty damn good at it.n=1, but I would take...not exactly offense, but that would def make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't tell you, though, because I'd know you meant well. I would just probably confide in you less so as to prevent you from saying anything like that again.
Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?
Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?
Hopefully they didn't take her blanket from her. It always amazes me how sometimes people who are ready to go just do. I had a patient I was just consulting on for an abscess but it was related to his leukemia so over the next few months I got to know him and his family well. He inquired about physician aid in dying (the Oregon type law they recently passed here) and I was the first person willing to sit down and talk about it with him. We never did get to the point of proceeding with it but I know he was comforted by the thought that I was willing to if he chose. As things got worse I offered hospice but he was initially reluctant, then a little more open to it, and finally on the day of his scheduled follow up they cancelled saying he had chosen to go to hospice (I was no longer actually doing anything at the appointments beside talking to him about his situation and looking at his no healing wounds from the drainages). He didn't survive more than a few days on hospice.It happened to me once, with a hip fracture patient. She initially did very well, but had a stroke within weeks of her surgery and deteriorated very quickly. I came to visit her in the hospital and sat with her. She told me she was happy with how her life had gone (she was in her 90s) and she was ready to go. The stroke had caused her to become blind, and she had been completely independent until then, and she did not want to die a prolonged death in a nursing home. Something about her resonated with me, as I could not imagine an independent person suddenly becoming disabled like that. She held my hand and told me I had helped her. She asked me if they were going to take her favorite blanket away when she went to the nursing home. I am a trauma surgeon, and I’ve seen some pretty bad stuff, but her asking me this pitiful little question about her blanket made me cry. She was blind so she couldn’t see me, though. I got my voice under control, and told her I would see her in clinic for her follow up and she smiled and said, “no, you won’t.”
She died 3 days later in the home. I have her obituary note in my office. She called me an angel but in those moments I felt so useless. So I guess, yes, it’s okay to cry, but it didn’t seem to do much. I don’t want another experience like that anytime soon.
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Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?
Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.If they asked, yes. First inquire what their Faith tradition is, though
The 12 Steps Program of AA uses a neural term like “higher power” and “God as we understand God” when praying in groups where people have different faith traditions. I have attended a few Alanon meetings and it is inspiring to observe how civil and respectful people are at those meetings when it comes to matters of faith
I'm sorry, but this is such a freaking weird reply to this thread.Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.
For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that. I am glad that I do not need AA, for many reasons, but also because I could never participate in it; its tenants are directly incompatible with my worldview.
Why? It's a very relevant set of beliefs that is often overlooked.I'm sorry, but this is such a freaking weird reply to this thread.
Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.
For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that. I am glad that I do not need AA, for many reasons, but also because I could never participate in it; its tenants are directly incompatible with my worldview.
Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle
Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?
Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?
For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that.
True. At that point, I was replying to a comment rather than to OP. Apologies on that front.I agree with you when taken out of context of this thread. However OP asked:
Implicit in the questions by OP is that the patient is directing the scenario.
No physician in their right mind would initiate an encounter with a patient expressly to cry solo nor to initiate prayer solo, self-directed. The operative word in OP’s question is “with”.
You missed that. I can appreciate you not having any belief systems, higher power or might be vehemently opposed to someone praying in your presence. However with OP framing the question otherwise, you are pursuing a debate that does not apply in this thread
The Twelve Steps allows members to have a higher power as they understand that higher power. It can literally be a material object, the stars, a logo, etc. I once attended a 12 Step meeting where a participant believed their higher power was a BMW car hood ornament hanging from their necklace. Whatever works for you!
Back to OP and the thread...
If a patient asks you to pray with them, either do so or tell them you can not because of your non-belief system. Still, it wouldnt kill you to be selfless and think about the patient first instead of evangelizing your non-belief shtick. Its not like God is going to strike you dead with lightning.
We get it. You are an atheist. So am I and may others on this thread. Hell, I'm militantly atheist according to some. You are making this so weird and about you. No one's post said you can't be atheist. No one assumed your belief system because no one asked you. You are in for a real treat if someone praying next to you gives you the creeps. You need to get a grip, frankly.True. At that point, I was replying to a comment rather than to OP. Apologies on that front.
As for the rest, I am aware of the flexibility you reference, but there is no flexibility to deny the possibility of ANY higher power. That being my sticking point.
And if a patient asked me to pray with them, I would likely sit there awkwardly and hold their hand and hope it made them feel better, and I wouldn't feel the need to evangelize, as you put it. But it would make me profoundly uncomfortable and is the number one experience I dread when I look forward to clinical years. I would rather have any other of the difficult or terrible conversations than sit there in the presence of overt spirituality and participate, even passively. Which is why I, back when I was on topic, mentioned not offering to pray so much as accepting it if asked earlier, to avoid making patients who feel a similar way feel uncomfortable - and OP responded in kind. So, sorry to have drifted back off topic from there, but it does bug me when people presume (as your post did also) that everyone is on board with the idea of a higher power, whether that be a God or a tree or a car hood ornament, and the real issue is just what that power is.
Just using myself as an example because it avoids me making any assumptions about anyone else. I could have phrased things in generic 3rd person if you'd prefer. And I didn't say anyone made assumptions about me...just saying that people often make the assumption that everyone they meet is OK with spiritual discussions, period, and obviously that's not true.We get it. You are an atheist. So am I and may others on this thread. Hell, I'm militantly atheist according to some. You are making this so weird and about you. No one's post said you can't be atheist. No one assumed your belief system because no one asked you. You are in for a real treat if someone praying next to you gives you the creeps. You need to get a grip, frankly.
... people often make the assumption that everyone they meet is OK with spiritual discussions, period, and obviously that's not true.