Offer Letter First Attending Job

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Marasmus1

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University Hospital, midwest small city, Assistant Professor of Child/Adolescent Psychiatry Appointment, hybrid model mix inpatient/outpatient, visa sponsoring

Base Compensation : 340k
Sign on : 30k
CME : 5 days a week, 5k reimbursement
Relocation : 5k reimbursement
Visa Fees: 6k reimbursement
Full time benefits
Profit sharing pension plan for retirement with 4% annual salary contribution by the hospital
Malpractice coverage ( Is not mentioning tail)

Inpatient - Average daily census not to exceed 14, averaged annually, any average above 14 subject to additional compensation
Outpatient - 90 minutes intake, 30 minutes follow up, 8 am to 6 pm work day with 1 h lunch break and 1 hour admin time daily
Half a day weekly for education/research (Does not specify the clinical responsibilities on these half days)
1:3 weekend coverage of inpatient unit

20 days PTO (includes vacation and sick days)
Earn 1 additional sick day, each month you work

I am planning to negotiate call ( Will not consider anything more than 1:4 weekends). Planning to negotiate daily inpatient census (Will go for 12). Will ask tail coverage as well. Open to other suggestions.

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Compensation sounds good. Is sign-on a straight up sign on or is it a retention bonus (as in, do you have to pay it back if you're not there a certain amount of time)?

RVU-based model after first or 2nd year?

Are you teaching? Research?

20 days for sick and vacay time is too little. Even if you can earn an additional day every month you work, I'd expect that to already be added in. I'd ask for at least 5 more days.

Are they expecting you to see 14 patients in am, THEN see outpatients in the afternoon? That sounds like a lot.
 
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Can you clarify the model. Do you mean like 1 week IP, 1 week OP? Or do you mean rounding IP and then going to OP later in the day?
 
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The pay seems reasonable. For outpatient is that five 10-hour days (8-6) with two hours for lunch and admin? If the clinic stays busy that seems like a lot. Especially when you factor in weekend call every three weeks and only 20 days of leave per year. Personally I would want to negotiate shorter days (think 9-5 with 2 hours lunch/admin) even if that meant decreasing the pay.
 
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Compensation sounds good. Is sign-on a straight up sign on or is it a retention bonus (as in, do you have to pay it back if you're not there a certain amount of time)?

RVU-based model after first or 2nd year?

Are you teaching? Research?

20 days for sick and vacay time is too little. Even if you can earn an additional day every month you work, I'd expect that to already be added in. I'd ask for at least 5 more days.

Are they expecting you to see 14 patients in am, THEN see outpatients in the afternoon? That sounds like a lot.

Sign on comes with two years rule. So if I leave before that I would need to pay certain amount. However, since I am on visa and would need to stay there for three years regardless, it would not be much of an issue

No RVU based model. So no productivity expectation. Base compensation goes up 3% every year

It has both Adult and Child Programs. Will have some teaching responsibilities such as didactics, individual supervision, group supervision etc. Research is optional

I agree with the PTO. I am planning to ask 5 sick days added in my contract in addition to 20 days of PTO

Based on my interview with the inpatient attending, daily census ranges from 8-16, but mostly closer to 8 than 16.
I will be doing 3 days inpatient and two days outpatient ( I requested this model because I like variety).
The half day teaching day, I will be responsible of half of the census (5-7 patients AM)
 
The pay seems reasonable. For outpatient is that five 10-hour days (8-6) with two hours for lunch and admin? If the clinic stays busy that seems like a lot. Especially when you factor in weekend call every three weeks and only 20 days of leave per year. Personally I would want to negotiate shorter days (think 9-5 with 2 hours lunch/admin) even if that meant decreasing the pay.

Outpatient will be two days a week. This is a busy CMHC clinic affiliated with the university so I am expecting to be quite busy. On the plus side, I was told 2-3 no shows daily so I may find myself having more time than I expect.

I am not sure if they could be flexible with the outpatient hours. There is huge CAP need in that community and intake wait times can be as long as 6 months. It would not hurt to ask though.
 
This is basically two jobs for the pay of one job to me. One inpatient job, and then another outpatient/academic teaching job. Especially if the clinic is busy. 14 inpatients per day is too many for me, too. I like 9 or 10 inpatients max. The benefits here look fine. Is there any yearly bonus, or student loan assistance?

I'm earning nearly $300k much right now at the VA just for the outpatient four 10 hour days job with no call, usually 10 patients a day, up to 14 on busiest days.

People often take a pay cut to work in academic hospitals.
 
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Is it an adult inpatient unit or C&A? Do residents/fellows carry the panel on inpatient/outpatient and you supervise them? What does the social work and nursing support look like on the inpatient units?

This is quite a lot of work, especially when you have ~34 extra days (52 weeks divided by 3 times 2 days for each weekend) of work from weekend call (do you have to round on patients and take overnight call?). Basically you have -14 days of vacation if you were to take a M-F job with no weekend call.

But it is much higher in salary than average for the area if you look at the AAMC academic salary.
 
I'm not looking in the midwest, but I'm getting recruiting emails like this.
 

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Personally, I think it sounds low on the money considering all things. I would prefer productivity in case you get higher number of patients. Call is ridiculous. Do you get days off during week after working that weekend? Because that will get old. Trust me. I am doing something similar right now because we had a few MD's leave. But, the more I work the more I get paid.

It is not the worst deal I have ever seen but I would want more money for the potential amount of patients you may be seeing. Not sure if that is the best deal you can with VISA. I know nothing about that aspect.
 
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Based on my interview with the inpatient attending, daily census ranges from 8-16, but mostly closer to 8 than 16.

Yeahhhh I wouldn't bet money on this. Child units tend to be constantly full except for a few low times throughout the year (and COVID kinda killed that this last year). Our main local adolescent IOP/PHP right now is backed up 30 days. Also depends on average length of stay but most places I've been have had backlogs of kids medically boarding for inpatient stays for most of the year. Especially when you say there's a 6 month waiting list for outpatient for child in the area.

Also keep in mind that you and the other inpatient attending need to have generally the same practice style if you're splitting inpatient time every week. I've seen this workout really badly in other places where the weeks are split and the attendings are constantly contradicting each other, one is ready to d/c everyone who walks in the door, the other wants to keep kids for days longer, you don't agree with the med decisions the day before, the nurses are confused because they get conflicting info Tuesday to Wednesday, the families are confused, etc etc.

Tends to work better if you're splitting between psych ER or IOP and outpatient, as there's no patient overlap between attendings then (ex. you just see all the kids that get seen on Tuesday/Thursday for IOP and someone else sees the ones on Mon/Wed).
 
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I hate inpatient work already, but I feel doing inpatient 3 days per week would be worse. You get very little continuity that way. Seems not good for patients, not good for you to have to keep meeting new patients, and potentially not good depending on the work style of whomever you pick up patients from.

Has anyone worked in such a model?
 
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I've worked in a disjointed IP/OP model in the past that would be a few days here and few days there. And on the IP days having a few hours of OP after that. Hated it. Just for that reason; the lack of continuity and knowing what was going on. It was like weekend coverage every time. But the real crux was colleagues that didn't much care about doing a sign out. Even when finally getting one implemented, it was barely useful and lacked meaningful content. So each new day on unit was so much wasted time trying figure out who the patient is, what's going on, where are they at in the treatment course, and where are things going. Never mind when family would show up and want a meeting. Or if you had court for commitment. So glad I'm no longer practicing that environment.

But if you are someone who is lower on the caring spectrum, that time of inpatient practice, or even the high volume for profit units, can be a quality gig. If you care about quality - run away.
 
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I hate inpatient work already, but I feel doing inpatient 3 days per week would be worse. You get very little continuity that way. Seems not good for patients, not good for you to have to keep meeting new patients, and potentially not good depending on the work style of whomever you pick up patients from.

Has anyone worked in such a model?

Looked at a position with that potential schedule (3 days inpt with 2 admin half days), but only applied after confirming that this schedule could be changed. For me, first day is basically just trying to figure out who everyone is. The idea of only having 2 days of continuity with the patients regularly sounds awful and I wouldn’t do it for any regular period of time. This is also why I don’t kind a 7/7 model, you do work weekends but you also have more days of continuity and less trying to learn the new patients.
 
I hate inpatient work already, but I feel doing inpatient 3 days per week would be worse. You get very little continuity that way. Seems not good for patients, not good for you to have to keep meeting new patients, and potentially not good depending on the work style of whomever you pick up patients from.

Has anyone worked in such a model?
No and this sounds terrible. 1/3 of your days you are rotating off the unit, so then the next day they call to speak to the attending who has no clue what is happening. Then 1/3 of the days you are rotating on and won't know most of the patients (assuming ALoS around 7 days for CAP in most acute care inpatient units). You have to really nail down signout and spend a bunch of time doing this.

Completely agree that IOP/PHP + OP works better. If I were OP and wanted some IP experience early in career while banging out a visa, I would just do fulltime IP. If you want to address the OP need, I would do full-time OP and/or add IOP/PHP. If you really want both, I think it's much better to do AM IP with a lower cap (say 6 or so patients) then afternoons in clinic.
 
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I will be doing 3 days inpatient and two days outpatient ( I requested this model because I like variety).
This feels like you could possibly get the worst of both worlds. Imagine the worst case scenario where you are covering a very acute cohort on inpatient with endless family meetings, emergencies, restraints on units, and all of your outpatients' parents are calling you up for urgent visits b/c their kids are nearing an ED stepdown, or calling for parental guidance questions for bizarre behavioural issues that end up taking 20 min to answer...

Do you have the option to take the same salary but ONLY choose to do inpt or outpt? It just feels like opening yourself up for too much responsibility.

Also negotiate the hell out of call... no reason a CAP should take mandatory call in this market. Go for at minimum 1:8 and make the hospital cover weekends by offering additional compensation on a voluntary basis.
 
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sounds horrible, specially when call in also included and you will be covering 17 weekends! so that's roughly $65000-70000 included in total. So your base is close to 260000-270000 which includes two 10 hours day. overall looks low for C&A who is willing to see around 14-15 patients/day.
 
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The base salary seems high, particularly for an academic job in the midwest, which does make me suspicious about the workload.
 
The base salary seems high, particularly for an academic job in the midwest, which does make me suspicious about the workload.
I mean 14 patients/day IP CAP and 8 clinical hour days with 1:3 call is not messing around for workload. Basically an academic hospital hiring someone to grind through patients, not really an academic appointment.
 
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I mean 14 patients/day IP CAP and 8 clinical hour days with 1:3 call is not messing around for workload. Basically an academic hospital hiring someone to grind through patients, not really an academic appointment.

Yeah I don't get the "8AM to 6PM with 2 hours of admin time" thing either. Why not just 8AM-5PM with an hour for lunch, screw the admin time I'll do that at home? 6PM is definitely wayyy later than a lot of child psychiatrists work outpatient unless you want to work that late (offering evening appointments or something). Hell my patients are surprised I have appointments on 4:30 on a Friday lol.
 
Just to clarify some points.

The hospital is university medical center and comes with assistant professor appointment. However, my main role as evidenced by the work structure is clinical patient care. I will have half a day a week (0.1 FTE) teaching days for resident/fellow didactics, individual or group supervision, maybe resident or fellow recruitment etc..

The workload is high. However, I do want to work hard and make some good bucks. But I do not want to work ''hard'' at the expense of good patient care. Some of the advices here completely make sense ( This is exactly why I shared the offer in the forum)

So far, I am definitely not doing mixed IP/OP model due to significant issues related to continuity of care. They are giving me flexibility to choose my own setting so I will likely go for full time inpatient early on in my career.

I am also definitely negotiating the average daily census and 1:3 weekend call.

Now the question is whether I counter this with 12 annual average max and 1:4 weekend call or try the long shot and go for 10 annual average census and 1:8 weekend call, which very likely would lead to overall compensation going down significantly
 
Yeah I don't get the "8AM to 6PM with 2 hours of admin time" thing either. Why not just 8AM-5PM with an hour for lunch, screw the admin time I'll do that at home? 6PM is definitely wayyy later than a lot of child psychiatrists work outpatient unless you want to work that late (offering evening appointments or something). Hell my patients are surprised I have appointments on 4:30 on a Friday lol.

Yeah but I don`t want to bring work at home tho. If I do not take that administration time, they will be quite happy and enthusiastic to schedule two more follow ups between 5 to 6 pm
 
This feels like you could possibly get the worst of both worlds. Imagine the worst case scenario where you are covering a very acute cohort on inpatient with endless family meetings, emergencies, restraints on units, and all of your outpatients' parents are calling you up for urgent visits b/c their kids are nearing an ED stepdown, or calling for parental guidance questions for bizarre behavioural issues that end up taking 20 min to answer...

Do you have the option to take the same salary but ONLY choose to do inpt or outpt? It just feels like opening yourself up for too much responsibility.

Also negotiate the hell out of call... no reason a CAP should take mandatory call in this market. Go for at minimum 1:8 and make the hospital cover weekends by offering additional compensation on a voluntary basis.

I do have an option to choose full time inpatient or ambulatory with same compensation structure.

However, I do not think I have too much flexibility about the call. The inpatient unit has only one child attending so far. She told me straight during the interview that she covers 2:4 weekends. The other two weekends are shared between Adult Psychiatrists. So opting out call, will likely lead to opting out contract negotiations.
 
I do have an option to choose full time inpatient or ambulatory with same compensation structure.

However, I do not think I have too much flexibility about the call. The inpatient unit has only one child attending so far. She told me straight during the interview that she covers 2:4 weekends. The other two weekends are shared between Adult Psychiatrists. So opting out call, will likely lead to opting out contract negotiations.
Nothing wrong with 1:4 weekend call, my wife is going to be doing that her entire career, it's unheard of in her specialty not to. If you are young and want to grind it out, then more power to you. I agree 1:3 gets to be really constrictive (having lived through it with my wife for brief times when people are away).

I would shoot for 12 patients/day, all IP, 1:4 call around that current pay and you'd have a good first setup and can get your visa issues taken care of for good.
 
For folks who have done job hunting many times in the past;

How come there is so much variation in base salary in different locations at academic settings? I do understand ''some'' variation but not 200k difference in base. Another academic institute I got an offer letter from recently offered 165k base salary for inpatient gig 6-8 patients a day with no RVU expectation.

Not only that, when I expressed my surprise , they told me that this is a competitive number for child psych in that area and said they have just signed two brand new attendings for similar bases.
 
For folks who have done job hunting many times in the past;

How come there is so much variation in base salary in different locations at academic settings? I do understand ''some'' variation but not 200k difference in base. Another academic institute I got an offer letter from recently offered 165k base salary for inpatient gig 6-8 patients a day with no RVU expectation.

Not only that, when I expressed my surprise , they told me that this is a competitive number for child psych in that area and said they have just signed two brand new attendings for similar bases.

I mean that is half the number of patients.

Anyway the general rule is the more prestigious the institution, the less you’ll get paid.
 
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How come there is so much variation in base salary in different locations at academic settings? I do understand ''some'' variation but not 200k difference in base. Another academic institute I got an offer letter from recently offered 165k base salary for inpatient gig 6-8 patients a day with no RVU expectation.

Not only that, when I expressed my surprise , they told me that this is a competitive number for child psych in that area and said they have just signed two brand new attendings for similar bases.

It may be a competitive salary for the number of RVUs you generate, though it does sound low. In that position were there times you were required to be there, or was it see 6-8 patients/supervise residents or fellows seeing 6-8 patients and handle the rest from home? I know plenty of gen psych docs seeing patients in the mornings and leaving by early afternoon, some have second jobs and kill it.

165k sounds low regardless of the situation. I have hard line at $200k for a FT position and would only go lower for an absolute dream position, which would inevitably involve some other significant benefits or bonuses.
 
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It may be a competitive salary for the number of RVUs you generate, though it does sound low. In that position were there times you were required to be there, or was it see 6-8 patients/supervise residents or fellows seeing 6-8 patients and handle the rest from home? I know plenty of gen psych docs seeing patients in the mornings and leaving by early afternoon, some have second jobs and kill it.

165k sounds low regardless of the situation. I have hard line at $200k for a FT position and would only go lower for an absolute dream position, which would inevitably involve some other significant benefits or bonuses.
If you get 165k +bennies +good retirement match/setup and can do it exclusively in the AM with limited interruptions the rest of the day (and rare call) and then run a cash pay outpatient that benefits from your standing at said fancy academic institute it would actually be a sweet deal. This almost never happens though, as most of these places limit or eliminate your ability to do outside work or would take a cut of the pay.
 
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Not only that, when I expressed my surprise , they told me that this is a competitive number for child psych in that area and said they have just signed two brand new attendings for similar bases.

Why such low offers? Because people take them. If people would stop taking sub-200 offers, I guarantee hospitals would stop offering them.
 
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....

I am also definitely negotiating the average daily census and 1:3 weekend call.

Now the question is whether I counter this with 12 annual average max and 1:4 weekend call or try the long shot and go for 10 annual average census and 1:8 weekend call, which very likely would lead to overall compensation going down significantly
Average? LOL. If you are trying to initiate a cap, then negotiate for a cap. Permitting a fluid number like average, means you will be taken advantage of and it means nothing. Some how, every day when you walk into the unit, it happens to be larger than your target average census. And then what are you going to do about it?
 
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I do have an option to choose full time inpatient or ambulatory with same compensation structure.

However, I do not think I have too much flexibility about the call. The inpatient unit has only one child attending so far. She told me straight during the interview that she covers 2:4 weekends. The other two weekends are shared between Adult Psychiatrists. So opting out call, will likely lead to opting out contract negotiations.
If they are desperate enough to hire then you as a CAP, then you SHOULD have the ability to negotiate out of calls. When I was finishing up fellowship I negotiated out of "mandatory" call in every job I was considering. In my current job I told my employer that call was a deal-breaker so they started staffing weekends w/ locums CAPs and voluntary staff. I let my other colleagues know and they also asked to be taken off weekends. Now NOBODY has mandatory weekend call, and in the last 12 months the rate for each weekend day has skyrocketed 300% in response to market conditions.

So... in some ways I'd like to think my aggressive negotiation against weekends has helped ALL child psychiatrists at my site.
 
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If you get 165k +bennies +good retirement match/setup and can do it exclusively in the AM with limited interruptions the rest of the day (and rare call) and then run a cash pay outpatient that benefits from your standing at said fancy academic institute it would actually be a sweet deal. This almost never happens though, as most of these places limit or eliminate your ability to do outside work or would take a cut of the pay.
Right, was more referring to any position offering 165k + basic benefits that allows you to get out by early afternoon. Pay isn't good if you're seeing 8-10 patients, but still leaves ample time for side gigs to supplement income. Finding something like that in academics that allows you to hold other work without significant restrictions would be really nice. Our institution actually has a couple attendings that managed to do this, but they're job and hours are pretty atypical anyway.
 
It may be a competitive salary for the number of RVUs you generate, though it does sound low. In that position were there times you were required to be there, or was it see 6-8 patients/supervise residents or fellows seeing 6-8 patients and handle the rest from home? I know plenty of gen psych docs seeing patients in the mornings and leaving by early afternoon, some have second jobs and kill it.

165k sounds low regardless of the situation. I have hard line at $200k for a FT position and would only go lower for an absolute dream position, which would inevitably involve some other significant benefits or bonuses.

No. 165 k base is calculated from 40 clinical patient hours a week with ''fair market value data'' as per the administration. Expectation is 9-5 pm work. 6-8 patient comes from the fact that they allow scheduling 2 hour new patient evals and 1 hour follow ups. 50 mile radius no compete for 1 year if you leave. No incentive or bonus for productivity. Moonlighting in the county and surrounded counties are not allowed.
 
If you get 165k +bennies +good retirement match/setup and can do it exclusively in the AM with limited interruptions the rest of the day (and rare call) and then run a cash pay outpatient that benefits from your standing at said fancy academic institute it would actually be a sweet deal. This almost never happens though, as most of these places limit or eliminate your ability to do outside work or would take a cut of the pay.

It is a high prestige academic job with great benefits. but it is 9-5 pm. Moonlighting or side practice in the county and surrounding counties are strictly forbidden
 
Average? LOL. If you are trying to initiate a cap, then negotiate for a cap. Permitting a fluid number like average, means you will be taken advantage of and it means nothing. Some how, every day when you walk into the unit, it happens to be larger than your target average census. And then what are you going to do about it?

But cap would be a hard sell because weekend calls are embedded in that average.

My thought was I would have them average 12 patients including weekend calls and ask outrageous additional stipend for each extra patient annually, something like 40k a year for each additional patient. (Hoping that would prevent them from abusing me)
 
It is a high prestige academic job with great benefits. but it is 9-5 pm. Moonlighting or side practice in the county and surrounding counties are strictly forbidden

What makes you think it's high prestige?
 
It is a high prestige academic job with great benefits. but it is 9-5 pm. Moonlighting or side practice in the county and surrounding counties are strictly forbidden
do you mean the institution is prestigious? There is nothing prestigious or even vaguely respectable about working 40 clinical hours a week (which is more than full time) for 165k.
 
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do you mean the institution is prestigious? There is nothing prestigious or even vaguely respectable about working 40 clinical hours a week (which is more than full time) for 165k.
Agreed. I mean institution has a name in academia. Apparently folks are taking huge paycut to work there. I did not know that. In my current institurion NPs are making 200k
 
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IVY league affiliated academic center

But it's in the midwest and the Ivies are on the coasts. That's not a reason not to take it, but it's also not a reason to take it. For example if Harvard or Yale formed an affiliation with Little Rock Hospital, that doesn't necessarily mean a job at Little Rock Hospital is prestigious. And just because it's affiliated doesn't mean it's suddenly going to open doors especially if you're not at the flagship. Bottom line, I would not take this job for the prestige. There are other pros and cons noted in the thread. Bottom bottom line, you're an attending physician. Take jobs because they will make you happy or they will get you to where will make you happy. Taking them just for prestige will make you miserable.
 
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But it's in the midwest and the Ivies are on the coasts. That's not a reason not to take it, but it's also not a reason to take it. For example if Harvard or Yale formed an affiliation with Little Rock Hospital, that doesn't necessarily mean a job at Little Rock Hospital is prestigious. And just because it's affiliated doesn't mean it's suddenly going to open doors especially if you're not at the flagship. Bottom line, I would not take this job for the prestige. There are other pros and cons noted in the thread. Bottom bottom line, you're an attending physician. Take jobs because they will make you happy or they will get you to where will make you happy. Taking them just for prestige will make you miserable.

The one paying 165k is actually in east coast but point taken
 
I would strongly consider picking either inpatient or outpatient. The proposed split week does not sound good to me. If you do outpatient, there would always be the option to pick up an inpatient shift, or an inpatient week if needed to cover someone's absence, to keep yourself involved in the hospital side. The only way I would choose to do inpatient and outpatient together would be a morning inpatient job with a max number of patients, like 5-6 maybe, then clinic afternoon. This setup gives you the option to work more hours Mon-Thursday, and you can block out Friday afternoons to start the weekend early.
 
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No. 165 k base is calculated from 40 clinical patient hours a week with ''fair market value data'' as per the administration. Expectation is 9-5 pm work. 6-8 patient comes from the fact that they allow scheduling 2 hour new patient evals and 1 hour follow ups. 50 mile radius no compete for 1 year if you leave. No incentive or bonus for productivity. Moonlighting in the county and surrounded counties are not allowed.
That's crap. Idk any "fair market value" where FTE in psych is that low. That non-compete is also ridiculous. That offer seems almost insulting, IMO.


But cap would be a hard sell because weekend calls are embedded in that average.

My thought was I would have them average 12 patients including weekend calls and ask outrageous additional stipend for each extra patient annually, something like 40k a year for each additional patient. (Hoping that would prevent them from abusing me)
What you're describing is a cap...

If you're talking about average, that implies there's a range of patients you can see. Also, how are you going to determine "extra patient annually"? What if you see 12.4 patients/day annually? Do you get a fraction of that 40k? Who is determining your schedule? What stops them from giving you 8 patients one day and 16 the next? "Average" seems like a recipe for disaster if you're getting paid on salary without incentives.

It would be easier to just set a cap and say you get X dollars for every patient you see over that.
 
IVY league affiliated academic center
Oh god don't buy into this.

Prestige doesn't pay the bills. Unless you are shooting for the stars in academia, or trying to leverage that ivy league branding into a private practice for top $$$ then there is zero tangible benefit. I was told during my negotiations that "our salary is 'competitive' given the opportunities of being instructor at [fancy ivy med school]". I asked if I could "sell back" the academic title for an extra 20k a year but ultimately they said all staff had to be affiliated w/ the med school blah blah. Ultimately the decision came down to life and disability insurance benefits through the institution, which ended up being a steal (due to my health problems).
 
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Oh god don't buy into this.

Prestige doesn't pay the bills. Unless you are shooting for the stars in academia, or trying to leverage that ivy league branding into a private practice for top $$$ then there is zero tangible benefit. I was told during my negotiations that "our salary is 'competitive' given the opportunities of being instructor at [fancy ivy med school]". I asked if I could "sell back" the academic title for an extra 20k a year but ultimately they said all staff had to be affiliated w/ the med school blah blah. Ultimately the decision came down to life and disability insurance benefits through the institution, which ended up being a steal (due to my health problems).
Sorry to hear about the health problems
 
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Oh god don't buy into this.

Prestige doesn't pay the bills. Unless you are shooting for the stars in academia, or trying to leverage that ivy league branding into a private practice for top $$$ then there is zero tangible benefit. I was told during my negotiations that "our salary is 'competitive' given the opportunities of being instructor at [fancy ivy med school]". I asked if I could "sell back" the academic title for an extra 20k a year but ultimately they said all staff had to be affiliated w/ the med school blah blah. Ultimately the decision came down to life and disability insurance benefits through the institution, which ended up being a steal (due to my health problems).

Seems like you are a seasoned attending and I value your advice ( as well as the other members in this forum). What do you think about starting your career as a junior attending in academic hospital vs private or community practice. So far, I have 6 offer letters in front of me in various settings and I am having very hard time to pick one. I always thought academia as an ideal setting to step in attending realm due to career advancement, learning opportunities and supervision from more experienced faculty. I do feel like in community mental health setting, advancement opportunities would be limited ( I guess the top position would be advancement to medical directorship after 20 years of service?). With private practice, the only advancement I see is buying in the practice or opening your brand new one but unless you create a brand practice like Talkiatry, Amen clinics or Lifestance (which are mostly managed by corporations or like minded people unfortunately) my horizon does not extend further after being an owner or a partner.

The only continuous career-wise lifelong advancement I see is in academia. I would like experienced and seasoned psychiatrist to give their insight in this thread. Money and benefits are must but I do feel like at some point ( probably less than 5 years) , they wont mean much , boredom will sink in and lead to eventual burn out. Maybe that`s why Medscape survey revealed that physicians in academia are less likely to be burned out?
 
Seems like you are a seasoned attending and I value your advice ( as well as the other members in this forum). What do you think about starting your career as a junior attending in academic hospital vs private or community practice. So far, I have 6 offer letters in front of me in various settings and I am having very hard time to pick one. I always thought academia as an ideal setting to step in attending realm due to career advancement, learning opportunities and supervision from more experienced faculty. I do feel like in community mental health setting, advancement opportunities would be limited ( I guess the top position would be advancement to medical directorship after 20 years of service?). With private practice, the only advancement I see is buying in the practice or opening your brand new one but unless you create a brand practice like Talkiatry, Amen clinics or Lifestance (which are mostly managed by corporations or like minded people unfortunately) my horizon does not extend further after being an owner or a partner.

The only continuous career-wise lifelong advancement I see is in academia. I would like experienced and seasoned psychiatrist to give their insight in this thread. Money and benefits are must but I do feel like at some point ( probably less than 5 years) , they wont mean much , boredom will sink in and lead to eventual burn out. Maybe that`s why Medscape survey revealed that physicians in academia are less likely to be burned out?
I think many physicians struggle to get out of this mentality. We're so used to jumping through hoops to the next stage (getting into med school, getting through med school, getting into residency, then fellowship, then job etc), it can be hard to imagine a world where there isn't a next step or where you're not receiving some affirmation or your self-worth as determined by some metric. But once you've finished your training, you've made it! you can take a deep breath, and relax! You don't have to keep churning or jumping through hoops if you don't want to. Being a psychiatrist is good enough.

Now, of course there is nothing wrong with advancing through your career but it is important to take a step back and ask yourself why? Many physicians have no idea why they feel compelled to keep striving for more. Sometimes it is because that is what you've been programmed to do. Sometimes it is because you are hoping your career will provide you with something that you should be getting elsewhere. Sometimes, it is because you are escaping from your lack of self-worth. None of these are good reasons. Better reasons would be having a specific vision of what sounds like a fulling pathway, having a desire to provide more that patient care (e.g. working with systems, program development, education, policy etc)

While there are numerous opportunities for professional development in academia, most faculty are academic failures who never meaningfully progress, and many leave. There are in fact numerous opportunities for professional development and advancement outside of academia. Medical director positions tend to be entry level positions in many organizations, and sometimes the title is a euphemism for someone who supervises multiple NPs. You can progress in administrative roles including things like regional medical director, department chair/chief, chief medical officer, chief executive officer, chief wellness officer, chief informatics officer, chief innovation officer, vice president, president etc. One can also advance in governmental positions (for example through the VA, the county, the state hospitals or prisons, in corrections, the bureau of prisons, for SAMHSA or HHS), work for the commerical insurance industry, work for medicaid, work for medicare administrators (e.g. noridian) work for pharma or tech etc. It is possible to have a diverse portfolio of clinical and non-clinical work that helps to keep things interesting.

That said, while people love to hate on academia in this forum (including/especially those who actually are in academics lol), there can be a lot of benefits with the right job for the right person. unfortunately, there are many pseudoacademic positions (e.g. affiliated hospitals), or production driven jobs (i.e. working clinically hard for meagre pay) at academic medical centers nowadays. If you are taking an academic position it should afford you the benefits of such (e.g. time for research, significant responsibilities and interface with med students, residents and fellows, protected time for teaching, opportunities for educational or clinical leadership positions, mentorship, reduced patient load). Unfortunately, the golden age of academic medicine is long gone and we are in this stage of change where administrators want clinician-educator faculty to produce more than the median wRVUs for 10-25 %ile salary, along with requirements in teaching, supervision, publishing, presenting and committee service without additional or any compensation.
 
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Thats a well thought out reply - Classic Splik.
An American businessman took a vacation to a small coastal Mexican village on doctor’s orders. Unable to sleep after an urgent phone call from the office the first morning, he walked out to the pier to clear his head. A small boat with just one fisherman had docked, and inside the boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.
“How long did it take you to catch them?” the American asked.

“Only a little while,” the Mexican replied in surprisingly good English.
“Why don’t you stay out longer and catch more fish?” the American then asked.

“I have enough to support my family and give a few to friends,” the Mexican said as he unloaded them into a basket.
“But… What do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican looked up and smiled. “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, Julia, and stroll into the village each evening, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, senor.”
The American laughed and stood tall. “Sir, I’m a Harvard M.B.A. and can help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. In no time, you could buy several boats with the increased haul. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats.”

He continued, “Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you would sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village, of course, and move to Mexico City, then to Los Angeles, and eventually to New York City, where you could run your expanded enterprise with proper management.
The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, senor, how long will all this take?”
To which the American replied, “15–20 years, 25 tops.”
“But what then, señor?”
The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right, you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions.”
“Millions señor? Then what?”
“Then you would retire and move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, and stroll in to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”
 
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