Oh shucks Fauci, didn't you learn that honesty trumps (oops...) politics?

[pgg]

This article is stupid bc….

Yeah, it's a stupid article all right, and so is everyone who thinks the letter is an admission of "gain of function genetic engineering" or whatever the pearl clutchers are raving about this week.

Why don't you tell us what you think they did, what this means, and why you're concerned? Be specific.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Southpaw]

This article is stupid bc….We didn’t need NIH to tell us this to know the truth. Critical thinking should’ve let everyone know the truth long ago.

But everyone has to play politics- deny, call the other person a liar, call the other person dumb and obfuscate. (Talking about Fauci but also many others).

My critical thinking has led me to believe the NYPost is being purporsefully deceptive with that title if you actually read the letter. My critical thinking also allows me to believe that most people who see the title don't care enough to take the time and effort to actually read to letter. They see the title and go 'SEE!! I told you so!!'. If you read the letter and have an ounce of reading comprehension ability there's no way you could possibly conclude what the title suggests. But whatever. They're just going after clicks. Damage done.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Yeah, it's a stupid article all right, and so is everyone who thinks the letter is an admission of "gain of function genetic engineering" or whatever the pearl clutchers are raving about this week.

Why don't you tell us what you think they did, what this means, and why you're concerned? Be specific.

Why should I explain anything when you have already deemed me stupid??? It sounds like you have already decided so what is the point? I choose not to argue with close minded people. They can’t consider new possibilities that go against what they want to believe. They will shape whatever information is released to fit the conclusions they already have. Why would you even want a dialogue if it will not be productive?

To mildly humor you though (and with no desire to waste our time and pointless back and forth):

China continues to play under a different set of rules. They performed experiments which were unwise. We funded it and tried to use loopholes like a child (child, “I didn’t steal the candy. I stole the M&M’s”). Virus gained a function. China covered up the lab leak. Silenced the witnesses. Fauci got everyone on the same page and tried to deny. When questioned/caught he started attacking the people who dared question his authority.

To be clear, I do not think China intentionally released it. They would be much more clever and diabolical. This was not about an election. This was not about another conspiracy theory you may try to tie it to. But China’s actions essentially proved the guilt. If you don’t see that then you probably think the Laundrie fellow was innocent as well.

 

[Stank811]

Yeah, it's a stupid article all right, and so is everyone who thinks the letter is an admission of "gain of function genetic engineering" or whatever the pearl clutchers are raving about this week.

Why don't you tell us what you think they did, what this means, and why you're concerned? Be specific.

My current opinion is that gain of function research was occurring at the Wuhan lab which likely had many sources of funding which included monies from NIH. From some of the research occurring at the lab novel Covid-19 was created and escaped from the lab probably by infecting a employee of the lab which then spread unrecognized for some time leading to the events of the last couple years. I believe the intelligence report suggested that lab leak had the highest probability when compared to the other theories as well.

What do you think happened?

 

[pgg]

Why would you even want a dialogue if it will not be productive?

I think perhaps you're beginning to see why the 98% of us in the scientific community who aren't conspiracy theorists are so frustrated with the "dialogue" we've been having with you for the last couple years.

China continues to play under a different set of rules.

To start, agreed. I have a very dim view of China's leadership and behavior, as I've written here many times. I am by no means any kind of apologist for them.

Virus gained a function.

So this is how I know you either didn't read the letter, or didn't understand it.

If you didn't read it, you're not arguing in good faith. You're lying.

If you did read it, you didn't understand it, and so you're ... well, that's not a productive line of discussion. But I can't pretend to respect an opinion, your opinion, when it's so obviously contrary to the facts YOU are pointing at.

There was no gain of function. The letter was explicit. Some transgenic mice were exposed to a naturally occurring virus, and got sick. There's no generic engineering. There's no modification of the virus. There is NONE of the mad scientist doomsday bull**** you guys are screeching about. None.

Moreover, that virus was genetically distinct and far removed from the virus that has caused the pandemic. There is no connection between the pandemic and this study.

China covered up the lab leak. Silenced the witnesses. Fauci got everyone on the same page and tried to deny. When questioned/caught he started attacking the people who dared question his authority.

To be clear, I do not think China intentionally released it. They would be much more clever and diabolical. This was not about an election. This was not about another conspiracy theory you may try to tie it to. But China’s actions essentially proved the guilt. If you don’t see that then you probably think the Laundrie fellow was innocent as well.

And here again you're making assumptions and accusations that simply have no basis in reality, no evidence.

Again, I'm in full agreement, China's government is straight up evil. They're running a holocaust that nobody really seems to care about, they're being dicks to every other country that borders them, they're constantly threatening Taiwan, the list of REAL evil and horrible things they're doing is endless.

You don't need to make **** up to make China look bad.

 

[dhb]

I think perhaps you're beginning to see why the 98% of us in the scientific community who aren't conspiracy theorists are so frustrated with the "dialogue" we've been having with you for the last couple years.



To start, agreed. I have a very dim view of China's leadership and behavior, as I've written here many times. I am by no means any kind of apologist for them.



So this is how I know you either didn't read the letter, or didn't understand it.

If you didn't read it, you're not arguing in good faith. You're lying.

If you did read it, you didn't understand it, and so you're ... well, that's not a productive line of discussion. But I can't pretend to respect an opinion, your opinion, when it's so obviously contrary to the facts YOU are pointing at.

There was no gain of function. The letter was explicit. Some transgenic mice were exposed to a naturally occurring virus, and got sick. There's no generic engineering. There's no modification of the virus. There is NONE of the mad scientist doomsday bull**** you guys are screeching about. None.

Moreover, that virus was genetically distinct and far removed from the virus that has caused the pandemic. There is no connection between the pandemic and this study.


And here again you're making assumptions and accusations that simply have no basis in reality, no evidence.

Again, I'm in full agreement, China's government is straight up evil. They're running a holocaust that nobody really seems to care about, they're being dicks to every other country that borders them, they're constantly threatening Taiwan, the list of REAL evil and horrible things they're doing is endless.

You don't need to make **** up to make China look bad.

The 1st problem is the NIH is funding a non profit. That should not occur, the NIH should be funding research led projects.

The 2nd problem is that a US non profit is funding a level 3 or 4 lab whichever it is in China wtf?

The 3rd problem is that once that money reaches the Chinese lab we have no idea of what is done with it.

The lab leak theory once mocked and censored is now the prevalent postulate for the start of the epidemic...

 

[pgg]

The 1st problem is the NIH is funding a non profit. That should not occur, the NIH should be funding research led projects.

The 2nd problem is that a US non profit is funding a level 3 or 4 lab whichever it is in China wtf?

The 3rd problem is that once that money reaches the Chinese lab we have no idea of what is done with it.

The lab leak theory once mocked and censored is now the prevalent postulate for the start of the epidemic...

I have no problem with NIH spending money in cooperation with Chinese researchers given that we've had what, half a dozen viruses emerge from China in the last couple decades? SARS, COVID-19, pig flu, bird flu, etc. Seems prudent, dontcha think, for us to be looking at China, considering how much nasty stuff comes out of their neck o' the woods?

If you want to argue that we've done a lousy job ensuring that money is well spent or well managed, OK. I won't dispute that our government is terrible at oversight in many areas.

But let's get back to the point.

The NY Post, and our non-letter-reading-or-understanding contributers to this thread, have made the bold claim that this is some kind of smoking gun proof or even evidence of "gain of function" engineering of viruses to make them more dangerous to humans, and that simply isn't true. It isn't even partially true. I don't know what else to say except that anyone who read that letter and drew that conclusion has some fundamental deficits in vocabulary or understanding.

As for a "lab leak" being the source of this pandemic, that is
1) possible, even plausible, but not proven nor even supported by any evidence
2) a completely separate issue than the bull**** headline proclaiming that $US from NIH funded some kind of research aimed at altering a naturally occurring virus to make it more virulent to humans

 

[dhb]

As for a "lab leak" being the source of this pandemic, that is
1) possible, even plausible, but not proven nor even supported by any evidence
2) a completely separate issue than the bull**** headline proclaiming that $US from NIH funded some kind of research aimed at altering a naturally occurring virus to make it more virulent to humans

Is there evidence that the NIH was specifically financing the Wuhan lab to conduct gof research to enhance coronavirus contageousness for humans: probably not, but you can't really trust the Chinese on playing nice just because they're receiving US dollars to fund their gof research.

I think there is some evidence that the virus was not a natural occurence.

 

[pgg]

I think there is some evidence that the virus was not a natural occurence.

What is that evidence? Would genuinely like to look at it.

 

[Stank811]

I have no problem with NIH spending money in cooperation with Chinese researchers given that we've had what, half a dozen viruses emerge from China in the last couple decades? SARS, COVID-19, pig flu, bird flu, etc. Seems prudent, dontcha think, for us to be looking at China, considering how much nasty stuff comes out of their neck o' the woods?

If you want to argue that we've done a lousy job ensuring that money is

What is that evidence? Would genuinely like to look at it.

well spent or well managed, OK. I won't dispute that our government is terrible at oversight in many areas.

But let's get back to the point.

The NY Post, and our non-letter-reading-or-understanding contributers to this thread, have made the bold claim that this is some kind of smoking gun proof or even evidence of "gain of function" engineering of viruses to make them more dangerous to humans, and that simply isn't true. It isn't even partially true. I don't know what else to say except that anyone who read that letter and drew that conclusion has some fundamental deficits in vocabulary or understanding.

As for a "lab leak" being the source of this pandemic, that is
1) possible, even plausible, but not proven nor even supported by any evidence
2) a completely separate issue than the bull**** headline proclaiming that $US from NIH funded some kind of research aimed at altering a naturally occurring virus to make it more virulent to humans

I don’t think it is a big jump at this point to presume novel COViD-19 originated from the Wuhan lab.

Redirect Notice

 

[deleted697127]

I have no problem with NIH spending money in cooperation with Chinese researchers given that we've had what, half a dozen viruses emerge from China in the last couple decades? SARS, COVID-19, pig flu, bird flu, etc. Seems prudent, dontcha think, for us to be looking at China, considering how much nasty stuff comes out of their neck o' the woods?

If you want to argue that we've done a lousy job ensuring that money is well spent or well managed, OK. I won't dispute that our government is terrible at oversight in many areas.

But let's get back to the point.

The NY Post, and our non-letter-reading-or-understanding contributers to this thread, have made the bold claim that this is some kind of smoking gun proof or even evidence of "gain of function" engineering of viruses to make them more dangerous to humans, and that simply isn't true. It isn't even partially true. I don't know what else to say except that anyone who read that letter and drew that conclusion has some fundamental deficits in vocabulary or understanding.

As for a "lab leak" being the source of this pandemic, that is
1) possible, even plausible, but not proven nor even supported by any evidence
2) a completely separate issue than the bull**** headline proclaiming that $US from NIH funded some kind of research aimed at altering a naturally occurring virus to make it more virulent to humans

Condescension and snark doesn’t make you right.

Seems like an awful lot of evidence is just deemed not evidence and your intelligence is questioned if you suggest otherwise. China definitely refused an investigation. Fauci et al publicly denounced the thought that they could have had any part in it while secretly all questioning whether or not they could have contributed. Fauci himself has acknowledged that this research is capable of creating a pandemic and even said that we should not take the scientific community at their word should a pandemic arise. More questionable suspicious studies with dangerous safety protocols continue to be found as time goes on. The same experts that would be implicated are the ones refusing that it’s a possibility.

None of this is conspiracy. These are all facts.

Collecting bats from all over the world and infecting random animals isn’t natural. Does this expedite the timeline of “natural evolution” compared to if it were to occur in actual nature.

Is refusing an investigation obstruction of justice? I would call this mounting evidence in the face of obstruction of justice.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I think perhaps you're beginning to see why the 98% of us in the scientific community who aren't conspiracy theorists are so frustrated with the "dialogue" we've been having with you for the last couple years.



To start, agreed. I have a very dim view of China's leadership and behavior, as I've written here many times. I am by no means any kind of apologist for them.



So this is how I know you either didn't read the letter, or didn't understand it.

If you didn't read it, you're not arguing in good faith. You're lying.

If you did read it, you didn't understand it, and so you're ... well, that's not a productive line of discussion. But I can't pretend to respect an opinion, your opinion, when it's so obviously contrary to the facts YOU are pointing at.

There was no gain of function. The letter was explicit. Some transgenic mice were exposed to a naturally occurring virus, and got sick. There's no generic engineering. There's no modification of the virus. There is NONE of the mad scientist doomsday bull**** you guys are screeching about. None.

Moreover, that virus was genetically distinct and far removed from the virus that has caused the pandemic. There is no connection between the pandemic and this study.


And here again you're making assumptions and accusations that simply have no basis in reality, no evidence.

Again, I'm in full agreement, China's government is straight up evil. They're running a holocaust that nobody really seems to care about, they're being dicks to every other country that borders them, they're constantly threatening Taiwan, the list of REAL evil and horrible things they're doing is endless.

You don't need to make **** up to make China look bad.

You state that China is evil. But you want to say there is no proof against them even though they have total control of the evidence and won’t allow an appropriate investigation. I guess you believe they are not allowing anyone in bc they don’t want everyone to see how legit they are.

You say I’m lying bc of the article blah blah blah. Your reading comprehension is lacking or maybe YOU didn’t fully read my comment. Bc I said the article wasn’t needed for any proof, nor that my argument was based off of it. I think you should already be seriously doubting and concerned but go ahead and believe what China says.

From what I understand they definitely were trying to mix different viruses in lab animals to have a new function be acquired by another virus. You could almost reword that to say the virus gained a function. You can try to use semantics to get an out but whatever.

I also believe since they were gathering as many natural viruses from the area as they could, they likely had the real one among many that were distant. But since they destroyed samples we will take their word on it.

You seem to be in denial about it being from the lab when most people have accepted it as the likely origin. But since I’m part of the stupid 2% I should shut up and fall in line.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

What is that evidence? Would genuinely like to look at it.

Where is the evidence it came from a cave? Would genuinely like to look at it.

 

[DrOwnage]

At this point its highly intuitive the last 2 years was the result of a lab leak. This virus is something different. But we will never find out. Its not a coincidence there have been prior viral leaks, and that employees of the institute were sick shortly before the outbreak. You have a dictator that tried to completely remove pictures of Winnie the pooh because he looks like him. You think he's going to let evidence that they were responsible get out? Not to mention the WHO is useless. The NIH funding GOF research is dumb IMO. Why do we give our adversaries money to eventually screw things up, sigh.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Way way way too much smoke to convince me there's no fire. China went to great lengths to hinder any investigation and deliberately (de-lib-er-ate-ly) sent it to the world while isolating their country. That's evil on steroids. There's zero credibility, like zero to the millionth degree, of anything China says or does related to this as far as I'm concerned. At this point the burden of proof is on China to hunt down the specific bat and pig that mated before I ever believe it didn't come from the lab.

On a simple level, while it may not be the most scientific explanation, I'm 100% with John Stewart on this one (and I really never imagined those words coming from my mouth).

 

[Southpaw]

From what I understand they definitely were trying to mix different viruses in lab animals to have a new function be acquired by another virus. You could almost reword that to say the virus gained a function. You can try to use semantics to get an out but whatever.

I'm interested in your source for the first sentence. Lots of scientific experiments yield results that aren't expected. Does that make all of science gain of function? If you read the letter that the NYPost linked, and choose the ignore the content, that's fine I guess but it's on you. China is dirty and has been for a long time. But that doesn't make the NIH complicit.

 

[vector2]

.

Seems like an awful lot of evidence is just deemed not evidence and your intelligence is questioned if you suggest otherwise. China definitely refused an investigation. Fauci et al publicly denounced the thought that they could have had any part in it while secretly all questioning whether or not they could have contributed. Fauci himself has acknowledged that this research is capable of creating a pandemic and even said that we should not take the scientific community at their word should a pandemic arise. More questionable suspicious studies with dangerous safety protocols continue to be found as time goes on. The same experts that would be implicated are the ones refusing that it’s a possibility.

None of this is conspiracy. These are all facts.

Even if these are all facts, there's still no proof here for gof engineering in human viruses or the lab leak theory. At best, those who are excited about the NYPost article have declared it case closed using what is circumstantial evidence at best.

 

[deleted126335]

Occam's razor points to accidental lab leak and cover up as far and away the most likely explanation.

genetic engineering causing this, "deliberate release", Not so much. Doubtful in fact.

 

[psychbender]

Occam's razor points to accidental lab leak and cover up as far and away the most likely explanation.

genetic engineering causing this, "deliberate release", Not so much. Doubtful in fact.

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence"

Or,

"Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"

 

[dhb]

Occam's razor points to accidental lab leak and cover up as far and away the most likely explanation.

genetic engineering causing this, "deliberate release", Not so much. Doubtful in fact.

Can't we have genetic engineering and an accidental leak?

 

[Stank811]

Even if these are all facts, there's still no proof here for gof engineering in human viruses or the lab leak theory. At best, those who are excited about the NYPost article have declared it case closed using what is circumstantial evidence at best.

Redirect Notice

 

[GassYous]

You guys are going on and on about how China purposefully made a virus and spread it but as far as I know, the only country that has a history of testing biologics on their own population is the US.

Operation Sea-Spray - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[deleted697127]

Even if these are all facts, there's still no proof here for gof engineering in human viruses or the lab leak theory. At best, those who are excited about the NYPost article have declared it case closed using what is circumstantial evidence at best.

Definitely not case closed but inching closer.

What are your thoughts on the Atlantic article from a few weeks ago? An awful lot being written off as coincidence. Why did this take 2 years to get mentioned publicly? It just seems like people are so weirdly against questioning these researchers and China.

I honestly don’t understand why every new piece of evidence that comes out needs to come with the qualifier: “Does the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic have an unnatural origin? The answer hasn’t changed: probably not”

Even if it was well intentioned, It is disingenuous to pretend collecting Coronaviruses to study them in a lab is “natural” if that’s what might have happened without engineering. Is it not admitted that dangerous research was moved there after it was no longer allowed in the US? Why is that okay? Do I not have the right to be pissed off that taxpayer money went to China and we can’t account for what it’s used for?

Why are we so worried about being PC and offending people who won’t let us conduct an investigation that every country in the world wants for a pandemic that’s killed zillions of people? I’m not saying be racist bigots but I do sincerely wonder why the world hasn’t been more demanding about evaluating the lab from the beginning.

The Lab-Leak Debate Just Got Even Messier

A new leaked document is stirring up another frenzy over the pandemic’s origins. What does it really tell us?

www.theatlantic.com

 

[epidural man]

Definitely not case closed but inching closer.

What are your thoughts on the Atlantic article from a few weeks ago? An awful lot being written off as coincidence. Why did this take 2 years to get mentioned publicly? It just seems like people are so weirdly against questioning these researchers and China.

I honestly don’t understand why every new piece of evidence that comes out needs to come with the qualifier: “Does the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic have an unnatural origin? The answer hasn’t changed: probably not”

Even if it was well intentioned, It is disingenuous to pretend collecting Coronaviruses to study them in a lab is “natural” if that’s what might have happened without engineering. Is it not admitted that dangerous research was moved there after it was no longer allowed in the US? Why is that okay? Do I not have the right to be pissed off that taxpayer money went to China and we can’t account for what it’s used for?

Why are we so worried about being PC and offending people who won’t let us conduct an investigation that every country in the world wants for a pandemic that’s killed zillions of people? I’m not saying be racist bigots but I do sincerely wonder why the world hasn’t been more demanding about evaluating the lab from the beginning.

The Lab-Leak Debate Just Got Even Messier

A new leaked document is stirring up another frenzy over the pandemic’s origins. What does it really tell us?

www.theatlantic.com

This Atlantic article is so important.

“Why did this proposal have to be leaked by an anonymous whistleblower, in the form of a wonky PDF, to a group of amateur sleuths?” This line highlights EXACTLY why this is an important discussion.

It has nothing to do with “what should we do about China”, but more about how we, as a country, have responded, and continue to respond.

It then says
“Even as a natural origin remains the most plausible explanation, these discoveries, taken as a whole, demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that good-faith investigations of these matters have proceeded in the face of a toxic shroud of secrecy.” Why!!!? Why!!!? Why has a plausible explanation receive such push back? Why did it take a year and a half to be able to even mention lab leak? Why are people so dogmatic?

Also, doesn’t anyone find it kinda interesting that from all viruses that have came from nature, we have found the animal that caused 100% of the time? Yet we haven’t found the one for COVID-19. How is it, that we ALWAYS find the source, but the one time we didn’t, the world is the most dogmatic that this time, it absolutely came from an animal.

 

[dhb]

it absolutely came from an animal.

that doesn't live in that region...

probably a locum bat

locums suck

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Why has a plausible explanation receive such push back? Why did it take a year and a half to be able to even mention lab leak?

Because you're a xenophobic racist sexist homophobe that needs to be cancelled and unemployed. Crawl back to your cave, Cromagnon!

It's gotten so bad that many actually feel that way despite my obvious sarcasm. True critical thinking is a lost skill.

 

[Leon'sMom]

"Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?"

 

[Goro]

Can't we have genetic engineering and an accidental leak?

I have access to Pubmed right now, but there is data showing how the virus has zero signs of genetic engineering.

Accidental leak, maybe.

Are there certain cultures around the world that hate losing face, and will do anything to avoid showing that? Definitely yes. I think this is what explains the stonewalling, rather than evidence of a lab release.

 

[VisionaryTics]

In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan

From Vanity Fair on Friday:

"On September 20, a group of internet sleuths calling themselves DRASTIC (short for Decentralized Radical Autonomous Search Team Investigating COVID-19) released a leaked $14 million grant proposal that EcoHealth Alliance had submitted in 2018 to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

It proposed partnering with the Wuhan Institute of Virology and constructing SARS-related bat coronaviruses into which they would insert “human-specific cleavage sites” as a way to “evaluate growth potential” of the pathogens. Perhaps not surprisingly, DARPA rejected the proposal, assessing that it failed to fully address the risks of gain-of-function research.

The leaked grant proposal struck a number of scientists and researchers as significant for one reason. One distinctive segment of SARS-CoV-2’s genetic code is a furin cleavage site that makes the virus more infectious by allowing it to efficiently enter human cells. That is just the feature that EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan Institute of Virology had proposed to engineer in the 2018 grant proposal. “If I applied for funding to paint Central Park purple and was denied, but then a year later we woke up to find Central Park painted purple, I’d be a prime suspect,” said Jamie Metzl, a former executive vice president of the Asia Society, who sits on the World Health Organization’s advisory committee on human genome editing and has been calling for a transparent investigation into COVID-19’s origins."

 

[Iso4ane]

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence"

Or,

"Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"

Lab leak or not, this is going to sound a little conspiracy theorist, but in the far reaches of my mind I wonder if Trump's initial response to the pandemic was more out of malice than incompetence. However, incompetent he may be, I would never call Trump stupid, he did convince people to elect him as President after all.

If you think about what regions of the country were predominately affected (with high infection rates and death) when it first arrived to the US, it was predominately in blue areas. If you are trying to knock out your enemy, you would be okay with the increased rate of death in blue areas. I do think that Trump truly thought that this would be over sooner than later, that a vaccine would come out successfully during his term, and many people (close enough to greatly slow it down) would elect to take the vaccine. However, his anti-COVID rhetoric train left the station and he lost control. Trump admits to knowing about the severity of COVID and downplaying it. And more recently, Trump had urged/suggested that people that showed up to one of his rallies get vaccinated (which did not go over well with them), because unfortunately for Trump with vaccination rates falling somewhat along party lines, the death rates with recent wave have also fallen along party lines.

But, then again he could've been incompetent.

 

[deleted697127]

Lab leak or not, this is going to sound a little conspiracy theorist, but in the far reaches of my mind I wonder if Trump's initial response to the pandemic was more out of malice than incompetence. However, incompetent he may be, I would never call Trump stupid, he did convince people to elect him as President after all.

If you think about what regions of the country were predominately affected (with high infection rates and death) when it first arrived to the US, it was predominately in blue areas. If you are trying to knock out your enemy, you would be okay with the increased rate of death in blue areas. I do think that Trump truly thought that this would be over sooner than later, that a vaccine would come out successfully during his term, and many people (close enough to greatly slow it down) would elect to take the vaccine. However, his anti-COVID rhetoric train left the station and he lost control. Trump admits to knowing about the severity of COVID and downplaying it. And more recently, Trump had urged/suggested that people that showed up to one of his rallies get vaccinated (which did not go over well with them), because unfortunately for Trump with vaccination rates falling somewhat along party lines, the death rates with recent wave have also fallen along party lines.

But, then again he could've been incompetent.

So to summarize the last few posts. Evidence from the Atlantic article was presented about real research implicating the lab and the scientific community. Rebuttal: Someone makes the bold claim that their access to pubmed somehow refutes that the scientific community could have possibly been doing dangerous research.


More evidence of suspicious research was presented with VF article. Rebuttal: Bizarre conspiracy theory about trump.

—————-

Does this count as evidence?

SARS-CoV-2 and NIAID-supported Bat Coronavirus Research

An Analysis: Evolutionary Distance of SARS-CoV-2 and Bat Coronaviruses Studied Under the NIH-supported Research Grant to EcoHealth Alliance The research that NIH approved under the grant to EcoHealth Alliance with a subaward to the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, China sought to understand...

www.niaid.nih.gov

“In order to study animal coronaviruses circulating in nature, the investigators replaced the spike protein from a well-characterized bat coronavirus, WIV1-CoV, with the spike protein of animal coronaviruses recently discovered in bats in China. Using techniques common in virology, experiments involved a single round of infection in several cell lines, and in some cases, in mice that were genetically modified to express the human version of ACE2.”

 

[Iso4ane]

Does this count as evidence?

SARS-CoV-2 and NIAID-supported Bat Coronavirus Research

An Analysis: Evolutionary Distance of SARS-CoV-2 and Bat Coronaviruses Studied Under the NIH-supported Research Grant to EcoHealth Alliance The research that NIH approved under the grant to EcoHealth Alliance with a subaward to the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, China sought to understand...

www.niaid.nih.gov

“In order to study animal coronaviruses circulating in nature, the investigators replaced the spike protein from a well-characterized bat coronavirus, WIV1-CoV, with the spike protein of animal coronaviruses recently discovered in bats in China. Using techniques common in virology, experiments involved a single round of infection in several cell lines, and in some cases, in mice that were genetically modified to express the human version of ACE2.”

Your own article concludes, 'Experts in evolutionary biology and virology have made it clear that even the closest known relatives of SARS-CoV-2, which were not studied under the EcoHealth Alliance grant (so the orange ones, which were found in nature), are evolutionarily too distant from SARS-CoV-2 to have been the progenitor of the COVID-19 pandemic'. The blues ones even further away were the laboratory viruses.

So you your article states that these viruses were studied in a lab, which I don't think people are arguing. But, it does not support the lab leak theory. And if you think China is the only one with lab problems. The US Army had to shut down one of their BSL-4 labs after a containment issue in late 2019 as well. (Deadly Germ Research Is Shut Down at Army Lab Over Safety Concerns (Published 2019))

 

[deleted697127]

Your own article concludes, 'Experts in evolutionary biology and virology have made it clear that even the closest known relatives of SARS-CoV-2, which were not studied under the EcoHealth Alliance grant (so the orange ones, which were found in nature), are evolutionarily too distant from SARS-CoV-2 to have been the progenitor of the COVID-19 pandemic'. The blues ones even further away were the laboratory viruses.

So you your article states that these viruses were studied in a lab, which I don't think people are arguing. But, it does not support the lab leak theory. And if you think China is the only one with lab problems. The US Army had to shut down one of their BSL-4 labs after a containment issue in late 2019 as well. (Deadly Germ Research Is Shut Down at Army Lab Over Safety Concerns (Published 2019))

I presented you a link with the NIH directly admitting they were doing gain of function research on their own website. This is the admission that has been reported from multiple news outlets. Their conclusion that the specific research they admitted to doing wasn't the direct cause of the pandemic doesn’t change the fact that they just admitted to conducting banned dangerous research. Yet people are pretending like the NIH’s own admission didn’t happen.

So why did it take so long for them to admit to this research including denying it before Congress? What other research was going on that we don’t know about? Hard to say without a real investigation.

——————————————

Research on Highly Pathogenic H5N1 Influenza Virus: The Way Forward

The voluntary moratorium on gain-of-function research related to the transmissibility of highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus should continue, pending the resolution of critical policy questions concerning the rationale for performing such experiments ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here’s something directly from Fauci in 2012


Consider this hypothetical scenario: an important gain-of-function experiment involving a virus with serious pandemic potential is performed in a well-regulated, world-class laboratory by experienced investigators, but the information from the experiment is then used by another scientist who does not have the same training and facilities and is not subject to the same regulations. In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario—however remote—should the initial experiments have been performed and/or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?

Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks. It is more likely that a pandemic would occur in nature, and the need to stay ahead of such a threat is a primary reason for performing an experiment that might appear to be risky. However, we must respect that there are genuine and legitimate concerns about this type of research, both domestically and globally. We cannot expect those who have these concerns to simply take us, the scientific community, at our word that the benefits of this work outweigh the risks, nor can we ignore their calls for greater transparency, their concerns about conflicts of interest, and their efforts to engage in a dialog about whether these experiments should have been performed in the first place. Those of us in the scientific community who believe in the merits of this work have the responsibility to address these concerns thoughtfully and respectfully.

 

[Iso4ane]

I presented you a link with the NIH directly admitting they were doing gain of function research on their own website. This is the admission that has been reported from multiple news outlets. Their conclusion that the specific research they admitted to doing wasn't the direct cause of the pandemic doesn’t change the fact that they just admitted to conducting banned dangerous research. Yet people are pretending like the NIH’s own admission didn’t happen.

So why did it take so long for them to admit to this research including denying it before Congress? What other research was going on that we don’t know about? Hard to say without a real investigation.

——————————————

Research on Highly Pathogenic H5N1 Influenza Virus: The Way Forward

The voluntary moratorium on gain-of-function research related to the transmissibility of highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus should continue, pending the resolution of critical policy questions concerning the rationale for performing such experiments ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here’s something directly from Fauci in 2012


Consider this hypothetical scenario: an important gain-of-function experiment involving a virus with serious pandemic potential is performed in a well-regulated, world-class laboratory by experienced investigators, but the information from the experiment is then used by another scientist who does not have the same training and facilities and is not subject to the same regulations. In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario—however remote—should the initial experiments have been performed and/or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?

Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks. It is more likely that a pandemic would occur in nature, and the need to stay ahead of such a threat is a primary reason for performing an experiment that might appear to be risky. However, we must respect that there are genuine and legitimate concerns about this type of research, both domestically and globally. We cannot expect those who have these concerns to simply take us, the scientific community, at our word that the benefits of this work outweigh the risks, nor can we ignore their calls for greater transparency, their concerns about conflicts of interest, and their efforts to engage in a dialog about whether these experiments should have been performed in the first place. Those of us in the scientific community who believe in the merits of this work have the responsibility to address these concerns thoughtfully and respectfully.

To be clear gain of function was previously banned, from 2014-2017 or so. And the reason the ban started was because of several breaches of protocol at US government laboratories. But, after gain-of-function was shown to be possible.

 

[deleted697127]

To be clear gain of function was previously banned, from 2014-2017 or so. And the reason the ban started was because of several breaches of protocol at US government laboratories. But, after gain-of-function was shown to be possible.

Yea but the grant was awarded in 2014 and continued until 2020.

CNN even grilling the NIH. I think she went a little off script though so you probably can’t find this video directly on CNN or YouTube.

CNN’s Pamela Brown Grills NIH Director On ‘Oversight Failure’ for Wuhan Research: ‘Why Should Americans Trust You?’

CNN's Pamela Brown confronted Francis Collins on the NIH's "oversight failure" after their funding inadvertently facilitated gain-of-function research in Wuhan.

www.mediaite.com

 

[deleted697127]

Fauci staffers raised concern in 2016 about NIH funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan

Two staffers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) raised concern in 2016 that U. S. grant-funded research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) may be incorporating risky gain-of-function experiments. NIAID staffers Jenny Greer and Erik Stemmy raised this...

thenationaldesk.com

“In a 2016 progress report to the NIH describing its research, EcoHealth indicated its plans to infect “humanized mice with hybrid viruses, known as ‘chimeras,’” reported The Intercept, which also reviewed notes on the 2016 NIH communications with Daszak.

These plans reportedly triggered concerns from Greer, a grant management expert, and Stemmy, a program manager handling coronavirus research, according to The Intercept. They both wrote to EcoHealth to warn the experiments described in the progress report “appear to involve research covered under the pause." That refers to a 2014 moratorium on the funding of gain-of-function research that would reasonably be expected to make MERS and SARS viruses more deadly and transmissible in humans.”

 

[deleted875186]

Fauci staffers raised concern in 2016 about NIH funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan

Two staffers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) raised concern in 2016 that U. S. grant-funded research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) may be incorporating risky gain-of-function experiments. NIAID staffers Jenny Greer and Erik Stemmy raised this...

thenationaldesk.com

“In a 2016 progress report to the NIH describing its research, EcoHealth indicated its plans to infect “humanized mice with hybrid viruses, known as ‘chimeras,’” reported The Intercept, which also reviewed notes on the 2016 NIH communications with Daszak.

These plans reportedly triggered concerns from Greer, a grant management expert, and Stemmy, a program manager handling coronavirus research, according to The Intercept. They both wrote to EcoHealth to warn the experiments described in the progress report “appear to involve research covered under the pause." That refers to a 2014 moratorium on the funding of gain-of-function research that would reasonably be expected to make MERS and SARS viruses more deadly and transmissible in humans.”

Who cares …. This doesn’t help us understand where Covid came from, it is just speculative