On the interview trail: Summer research vs. taking a year off for research ?

[Cujo]

I was curious if some of you who have already gone through derm interviews could provide some insight on the value that summer research vs. taking a year off to do research holds on the interview trail. Do PD's look at you as a serious applicant if you took a year off rather than simply 8 weeks of research one summer? In the competitive process, are you at a disadvantage with limited research?

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[Gravi69]

Summer research is useless. You need to do at least a year's worth in order to have a meaningful conversation.

 

[cancerman51]

every interview will be all about how you are going to contribute to the field by doing academic dermatology (instead of cosmetics), so doing a whole year has almost become a necessity.

There is no serious expectation that you do research afterwards since there is no support for that anyhow, but doing research in medical school seems to be necessary to convince them that you are interested in medical dermatology (versus cosmetics or surgery), which is essential to admission to the program.

welcome to the game

 

[oracle07]

Summer research has the potential to be stellar, depending on your mentor and the amount you know coming into it. If you can hit the ground running, you can get amazing research done during the summer.

If you can have an experimental design in place and everything waiting for you when you start, you can get the research part of it done.... and do the writing/interpretation part of the results during your MS2 or MS3 year.

Obviously long term clinical trials are not this type of research. I think it's more applicable to basic science research if you already have some idea of what you're doing.

 

[sestamibi]

$20 to the first applicant to brazenly announce in an interview, "I'm here to treat patients, not play with test tubes."

 

[sestamibi]

Summer research has the potential to be stellar, depending on your mentor and the amount you know coming into it. If you can hit the ground running, you can get amazing research done during the summer.

If you can have an experimental design in place and everything waiting for you when you start, you can get the research part of it done.... and do the writing/interpretation part of the results during your MS2 or MS3 year.

Obviously long term clinical trials are not this type of research. I think it's more applicable to basic science research if you already have some idea of what you're doing.

I have to disagree. With prior extensive experience, maybe. And even then, you'll need to be joining the tail end of a basic science project.

There's no other way to generate the kind of data necessary for a publication in 8 weeks especially if we are referring to benchtop research. Even if we aren't talking about a publication, can you really develop a close relationship with your research mentor over one summer and one project?

And should you get those meaningful results, I can guarantee you those in the lab will not be waiting for you to compile and analyze the data over the course of MS2 or MS3. In this era of economic crunching, it's publish-or-perish. They'll seize your data (without question)

Of course, none of this really matters. You're not competing with those in the lab. You're competing with others on the national level. A summer's worth of research pales in comparison with those who have PhDs. Or those who conducted their research concurrently for a year during MS2. Or those who took off a year or TWO to conduct research.

If you're serious about derm, you have to look seriously at one year of research, at least. Like others have posted, it's all about playing their game.

 

[Long Dong]

Don't hate the playa hate the game.

Oh did I mention I only did 8 weeks of path research between ms1-2, and 8 weeks of derm research between ms3-4. But yeah looking back if I had done a year long thing I probably would of gotten more interviews. Actually my home program recommended I take a year off for research then apply. My parents said "hells no, you needs to graduate or at least try and if then you don't match then take that year off for research."

 

[mkdoc]

hey long dong, i know u had said in a different post that you had done an away rotation at ucsf. how was your experience? i read several posts that said its better to request to rotate with a specific attending...do you have any advice regarding this? how do you go about requesting to rotate with a specific attending?

 

[Cujo]

Don't hate the playa hate the game.

Oh did I mention I only did 8 weeks of path research between ms1-2, and 8 weeks of derm research between ms3-4. But yeah looking back if I had done a year long thing I probably would of gotten more interviews. Actually my home program recommended I take a year off for research then apply. My parents said "hells no, you needs to graduate or at least try and if then you don't match then take that year off for research."

Just curious, were you able to get any publications in that amount of time?

 

[InertQuail]

I have to disagree. With prior extensive experience, maybe. And even then, you'll need to be joining the tail end of a basic science project.

There's no other way to generate the kind of data necessary for a publication in 8 weeks especially if we are referring to benchtop research. Even if we aren't talking about a publication, can you really develop a close relationship with your research mentor over one summer and one project?

And should you get those meaningful results, I can guarantee you those in the lab will not be waiting for you to compile and analyze the data over the course of MS2 or MS3. In this era of economic crunching, it's publish-or-perish. They'll seize your data (without question)

Of course, none of this really matters. You're not competing with those in the lab. You're competing with others on the national level. A summer's worth of research pales in comparison with those who have PhDs. Or those who conducted their research concurrently for a year during MS2. Or those who took off a year or TWO to conduct research.

If you're serious about derm, you have to look seriously at one year of research, at least. Like others have posted, it's all about playing their game.

strongly disagree with this poster...

i did summer research between yr 1 and 2 and got 2 very strong publications. then did summer research again between yrs 2 and 3 and got an additional paper, a poster, and likely one more paper by the time interviews start. also formed great lasting bonds with research mentor. it's all doable, just find a good program/project, work your butt off for 6-8 weeks, and then continue to follow up on stuff.

 

[sestamibi]

strongly disagree with this poster...

i did summer research between yr 1 and 2 and got 2 very strong publications. then did summer research again between yrs 2 and 3 and got an additional paper, a poster, and likely one more paper by the time interviews start. also formed great lasting bonds with research mentor. it's all doable, just find a good program/project, work your butt off for 6-8 weeks, and then continue to follow up on stuff.

Like I said, your 6-8 weeks will pale in comparison to the time that others put in. Your publication record is impressive but your interviewers aren't new to the game. They know you joined a project that was well-established or nearing its completion which is why you were able to join in, hit the ground running, and be present for the completion/publication.

Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. To have built strong research connections and have publications is fantastic.

But if you're talking about proving a commitment to academic medicine, your 6-8 weeks just won't cut it. Confirmed my MULTIPLE PD's along my interview trail.

 

[cancerman51]

as we've said this is all a game.

on the interview trail, everyone will be talking about your commitment to academic medicine, blah, blah, blah, hoping that if they take enough smart people someone will figure out how to help derm become an evidence-based specialty.

6-8 weeks is a non starter for basic science research. however, i think doing basic science is a mistake anyway.

instead, clinical projects are probably the way to go. for these 6-8 weeks is fine, you can get things started ahead of time, do the bulk of the work in a few weeks, and then wrap it up later.

find someone who is a case-report, case-series machine. every dept seems to have one. they are usually eager to get medical students to help them out, since these publications help their academic career and get them promoted. their residents are too busy memorizing spitz to help out.

since this garbage is 50% of the archives/JAAD anyway, there is a pretty low bar for the quality of work that you need to do to impress upon them that you are committed to academic/not surgical/not botox dermatology.

 

[dgruntledmizzou]

Like I said, your 6-8 weeks will pale in comparison to the time that others put in. Your publication record is impressive but your interviewers aren't new to the game. They know you joined a project that was well-established or nearing its completion which is why you were able to join in, hit the ground running, and be present for the completion/publication.

Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. To have built strong research connections and have publications is fantastic.

But if you're talking about proving a commitment to academic medicine, your 6-8 weeks just won't cut it. Confirmed my MULTIPLE PD's along my interview trail.

Agree. It's comical how much research counts when you consider the amazingly high % of graduates who go straight into private practice. But they are the gatekeepers and you have to go with the flow. I can tell you a summer's worth of research impresses no one.

 

[scumbagderm]

Some of you guys are being ridiculous. I personally have no research experience. I wasted away my m1 summer on useless, non-academic pursuits. I didn't write even a case report until after 4th year started. I don't even say to them, "I want to do academic dermatology", either. I just say that I don't know yet what I'm going to do. I have had many, many interview offers far and above the "magic number".

I say all that just to show that there are two sides to the coin. You don't have to be some superstar basic-science research guru to be a competitive applicant. Granted, I may not match at some of the top-tier research institutions I interviewed at but there's a chance I might. Even if I end up at a smaller community derm program it doesn't really matter, I'll be a dermie. So future kids: don't freak out, try to get research and connections, but don't kill yourself over it either.

and by the way: taking a year off for research makes you a bad ***** in my book so way to go!!!!!

 

[InertQuail]

Like I said, your 6-8 weeks will pale in comparison to the time that others put in. Your publication record is impressive but your interviewers aren't new to the game. They know you joined a project that was well-established or nearing its completion which is why you were able to join in, hit the ground running, and be present for the completion/publication.

Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. To have built strong research connections and have publications is fantastic.

But if you're talking about proving a commitment to academic medicine, your 6-8 weeks just won't cut it. Confirmed my MULTIPLE PD's along my interview trail.

I originated the research (with considerable input from the PI). I spent 12 weeks on the first project and 6 weeks on the second. i like your constant assumptions though. they're cute.

 

[Long Dong]

hey long dong, i know u had said in a different post that you had done an away rotation at ucsf. how was your experience? i read several posts that said its better to request to rotate with a specific attending...do you have any advice regarding this? how do you go about requesting to rotate with a specific attending?

It was great and probably instrumental in my matching. The attending is Dr. John Koo, has a track record of getting people published. I emailed him directly.

Just curious, were you able to get any publications in that amount of time?

Yes eventually got 2 papers published. One of them got accepted the week before the rank list was due, so I emailed my #1 and told them of this update and my step 2 scores results (didn't drop to much from step 1).

 

[sestamibi]

I originated the research (with considerable input from the PI). I spent 12 weeks on the first project and 6 weeks on the second. i like your constant assumptions though. they're cute.

In reading through your past posts, you seem to have an adversarial history. I'm not going to indulge you. I'll tell you this kind of attitude is not well-received on a message board or in person. Fix it before interviews.

 

[InertQuail]

In reading through your past posts, you seem to have an adversarial history. I'm not going to indulge you. I'll tell you this kind of attitude is not well-received on a message board or in person. Fix it before interviews.

hmmm, attitude. an attitude of honesty? an attitude where I defend and advise would-be derm applicants to shoot for their goals and not be squashed and intimidated by those who claim they're in it for the money/lifestyle?

I think i'll stick with the attitude. i think you're just sad because you've made some incorrect assumptions, and I've pointed them out. it's alright. it's ok to be wrong once and a while. even seemingly infallible derm applicants can be wrong. even those who've met with MULTIPLE PDs.

oh, and a thing about your attitude, it called passive-aggressive. I'd tell you to fix it, but I have a feeling it's pretty ingrained.

 

[DermMatch]

whoa folks. chill and peace.

lots o' room for radically different opinions. more than one way to match into derm.

even pds have outrageously different perspectives! good to debate without eye-gouging.

 

[DermMatch]

I think it's the quality of effort and results that matter, not number of weeks per se.

I did one year of research.

However, I know of several people who matched quite well, with tons of interviews, with limited summer research and graduating in four years.

How did they do it?

- Summer research continued THROUGH the academic year, continuing to pop into the lab during your 2nd year, even continuing work during your third year, ultimately turning results into tangible write-ups/posters/presentations
- Additional stuff like case reports written during the year
- Research done under the mentorship of well-connected PD or faculty

So think in terms of doing summer research on steroids.

 

[2oRadio]

In reading through your past posts, you seem to have an adversarial history. I'm not going to indulge you. I'll tell you this kind of attitude is not well-received on a message board or in person. Fix it before interviews.

no worries. without clinical honors, interviews are just a dream.

I am not honoring rotations due to decent, but not outstanding reviews from attendings. I work my ass off, but it's not enough to impress the powers that be. I scored well enough on the shelf to honor. this is unfair and disappointing. I am a good person who works hard, and then phony gunners get honors where i don't. third year is busted. i wish the grades didn't matter as much as they do. crap.

 

[cancerman51]

I would have to agree with DermMatch, that if you find a good mentor who is churning out projects, and you can use a summer to get stuff going and then continue throughout the year, you could do well.

it is annoying that at my med school applying for dermatology basically commits you to a 5th med school year. it has become the assumption that you need to do a month of derm, a month of dermpath, rotate someplace excellent, and take a year off for research all to somehow prove your commitment to academic derm (whatever that is).

 

[Derm1210]

Some of you guys are being ridiculous. I personally have no research experience. I wasted away my m1 summer on useless, non-academic pursuits. I didn't write even a case report until after 4th year started. I don't even say to them, "I want to do academic dermatology", either. I just say that I don't know yet what I'm going to do. I have had many, many interview offers far and above the "magic number".

I say all that just to show that there are two sides to the coin. You don't have to be some superstar basic-science research guru to be a competitive applicant. Granted, I may not match at some of the top-tier research institutions I interviewed at but there's a chance I might. Even if I end up at a smaller community derm program it doesn't really matter, I'll be a dermie. So future kids: don't freak out, try to get research and connections, but don't kill yourself over it either.

and by the way: taking a year off for research makes you a bad ***** in my book so way to go!!!!!

Scumbag....Congrats on the number of interviews. I am guessing that you're one of those people that are AOA and have a stellar board score. Am I right? Also, would you consider your med school top-tier or middle-of-the-road? I'm thinking probably a pretty good school too.

I think that a lot of this advice regarding research and professing your love for academic medical dermatology probably pertains to those of us (me included) who maybe didn't go to the best med school, or didn't have the rockstar scores. I think if you're in that boat, research is almost a requirement, like the others on this board are saying, as well as making darn sure people believe you love medical derm. Unless you happen to make that connection with your derm department and are one of the lucky ones that make it in with low stats and no outside research....

Anyway, not trying to start anything, I just wanted to make sure you weren't giving false hope to everyone out there

[Can you tell from this posting that I'm jaded?]

 

[scumbagderm]

Scumbag....Congrats on the number of interviews. I am guessing that you're one of those people that are AOA and have a stellar board score. Am I right? Also, would you consider your med school top-tier or middle-of-the-road? I'm thinking probably a pretty good school too.

I think that a lot of this advice regarding research and professing your love for academic medical dermatology probably pertains to those of us (me included) who maybe didn't go to the best med school, or didn't have the rockstar scores. I think if you're in that boat, research is almost a requirement, like the others on this board are saying, as well as making darn sure people believe you love medical derm. Unless you happen to make that connection with your derm department and are one of the lucky ones that make it in with low stats and no outside research....

Anyway, not trying to start anything, I just wanted to make sure you weren't giving false hope to everyone out there

[Can you tell from this posting that I'm jaded?]

You are right on some things here. I am AOA and have good scores. I don't go to a big name school. Its actually a podunk state school that is frequently scoffed at. Saying its mid-tier would be generous. I've worried that my school name would hurt me but its really hasn't. Getting AOA at podunk school is also easier.

I'm not trying to give false hope to people on here. I just think there is more than one way to skin a cat. Obviously if a student is lacking in the grades/scores department then yeah, something else on the app. has got to pick up the slack. But to say that a person with no research/doris duke/NIH year off has little chance of getting interviews is not entirely true.
I also wouldn't discount the value of outside interests such as volunteering, international travel experiences, leadership experience, ect.

 

[moinmoin]

no worries. without clinical honors, interviews are just a dream.

So.......you don't have any interviews? I remember on a honors-in-3rd-year thread you lamenting on your lack of honors. Just curious.

 

[littlefeet]

So.......you don't have any interviews? I remember on a honors-in-3rd-year thread you lamenting on your lack of honors. Just curious.

We'll see what happens on match day; but I had no clinical (until 4th year) or pre-clinical honors and still got a decent amount of interviews. Stay tuned.

 

[forsparta]

Hey guys, just finished reading this thread.

Would you saying doing research throuhgout M1 and M2 would equate to taking a year off to do research? I could probably get 1 or 2 co-auhtor publications out in that time.

 

[dermathalon]

Hey guys, just finished reading this thread.

Would you saying doing research throuhgout M1 and M2 would equate to taking a year off to do research? I could probably get 1 or 2 co-auhtor publications out in that time.

Depends how you do it. It really is harder to get research done without a full year of dedicated time. That said, if you are able to work throughout MS1 and MS2 you can most definitely get good work done but you have to be willing to work on evenings, nights, weekends, and you have to have a good support system in the lab to make it work. Otherwise, you can become lost quickly and then become very frustrated. Not a recipe for success. And yes, your expectations are reasonable to think that you might be able to get 1-2 publications. You might be able to get more but that's a rarity more than the rule.

Then again, I know so many people that did a year of research with nothing set up ahead of time and it really was a pretty unproductive year for them, so just taking a year does not mean you will succeed. You can't just show up for the year off and then expect to perform. Assays take time to troubleshoot and set up and, if anything, doing some work throughout MS1 and MS2 will prime you for success during a year off because you might get some of the set up issues addressed so that you can focus on data collection rather than set up during your year off. In the world of basic science, a year goes by quicker than you might think.

Bottom line, yes research in MS1 and MS2 is valuable and may lead to publications depending on how you do it. At the least, it can set you up for a year off well. If your med school is P/NP in the first two years, you will have this more as an option. If you med school is graded (which I'm not in favor and I know others disagree), then it can be more difficult to focus on research.

 

[username456789]

When I was interviewing, I ran into two program directors on different occasions (out of like 16 different interviews) who told me they thought students taking a year off for research so they'd be competitive for derm was "silly", "pointless", and even "stupid." Their arguments were that the amount of research they're often looking for isn't astronomical, and they don't expect you to have 10 pubs in Science or anything. They seemed to suggest that the amount of research "expected" of successful applicants was more in line with what one might accomplish with a summer research gig between M1/M2, and then a little bit of continued research here or there as time permitted during M3 and M4.

One of them flat out said in summary, "if you take a year off of medical school just to do research that you think will help you get into dermatology, you're an idiot." Now, if you're taking the time off because you are genuinely a hardcore research gunner and there are projects you just can't wait to get started and all that jazz, that's a different story. And of course it is true that in an interview, you could paint yourself in that light regardless of what your actual intentions were for taking the research year.

Anyway, that was only a small minority of the programs at which I interviewed, but it was kind of refreshing to at least see that not everyone expects applicants to be taking time off and doing research fellowships and all that jazz. I've always sorta thought it was silly, but if I had felt that my application was somehow deficient without a research year (low scores, poor grades, etc) I'm sure I would've bit the bullet and done the same.

 

[asmallchild]

The counter to that is that I've also met PD's who feel that research as a medical student is generally useless. Someone who takes time off to do research shows more commitment (whether that is a commitment to research or a commitment to getting into derm is another argument for another day) and it's hard for someone who does research while in medical school to match the productivity of an applicant who took time off, much less pursued a PhD

Ultimately my advice would be to do as well as possible during M1. If you feel confident in handling the material, pick up a research project over the summer and if you can continue it throughout M2, fantastic. But all the research in the world isn't going to matter much if your actual coursework suffers because of it.

Now if you have a genuine interest in research and want to take time off, I think it can only help with your overall application package. If you are merely taking time off to "buff your CV", I'm not convinced it's worth it but obviously this will be a personal decision people have to arrive at on their own.

 

[username456789]

The counter to that is that I've also met PD's who feel that research as a medical student is generally useless. Someone who takes time off to do research shows more commitment (whether that is a commitment to research or a commitment to getting into derm is another argument for another day) and it's hard for someone who does research while in medical school to match the productivity of an applicant who took time off, much less pursued a PhD

Ultimately my advice would be to do as well as possible during M1. If you feel confident in handling the material, pick up a research project over the summer and if you can continue it throughout M2, fantastic. But all the research in the world isn't going to matter much if your actual coursework suffers because of it.

Now if you have a genuine interest in research and want to take time off, I think it can only help with your overall application package. If you are merely taking time off to "buff your CV", I'm not convinced it's worth it but obviously this will be a personal decision people have to arrive at on their own.

Totally agree here, and I only meant to present "another side" of the issue, which of course doesn't seem to represent the majority by any means. Just wanted to at least mention that not taking a year off for research is by no means a nail in your coffin.

I did a derm rotation in a large metro area and every student there (met a few students rotating at various nearby institutions) seemed 100% sold on the "you must do a yearlong research fellowship before applying to even have a shot" mantra. In fact, the attitude towards me was almost one of "oh isn't that cute, you think you'll match in derm without a year of research." It was amusing, to say the least.

 

[asmallchild]

Totally agree here, and I only meant to present "another side" of the issue, which of course doesn't seem to represent the majority by any means. Just wanted to at least mention that not taking a year off for research is by no means a nail in your coffin.

I did a derm rotation in a large metro area and every student there (met a few students rotating at various nearby institutions) seemed 100% sold on the "you must do a yearlong research fellowship before applying to even have a shot" mantra. In fact, the attitude towards me was almost one of "oh isn't that cute, you think you'll match in derm without a year of research." It was amusing, to say the least.

Agreed, I matched without taking the extra year off, although I was seriously thinking about it. I met some programs that gave me a hard time about it and I met some programs that actually seemed to embrace it. There are programs that produce excellent clinicians but are not academic publishing powerhouses. An applicant with a huge research background might even draw a couple of quizzical double-takes at those programs: "Why are you applying here? Are you just pan-applying at this point?"

 

[dermathalon]

Good discussion everyone and agree that if you are doing a research year only to boost your derm application that's not a great idea and you might become unhappy. By the way, research does not equal pipetting in a dish. There are other kinds of research such as chart reviews, epidemiological work, etc. that can have significant progress in a summer and wrap up over MS2. When people compare to PhD, the vast majority are basic scientists (although some can be epidemiology PhDs too but this is much rarer), but there are other kinds of research out there.

Research greatly strengthens the application, by a lot, but only if 1) you have met the filters so that people actually look at your application (PhD tend to get an exemption though) and 2) you come across as genuine. If I had to rank what gets your application looked at AND called for an interview, the first pass is Step 1...if you don't do well, you may get filtered out by a computer algorithm whether you think that is fair or not. Your clinical grades are very important and having AOA status really boosts your application. Then it comes down to the individual that reads your application. Seems like a lot of people focus on (in no particular order): the letters of recommendation (by reading between the lines on the letters), your research, and the personal statement (some faculty read this closely although not everyone puts as much weight on it).

That said, if you do amazing on Step 1, are AOA, have none to a few research items, and have great letters of rec, you will likely get a lot of interviews and probably much above the "magic number" of ten or so. However, if you take that same person and put on a bunch of research publications that exhibit a drive for research and discovery, the interview count will go much higher. If you have a ton of research and don't do well on Step 1 and grades (as asmallchild points out), you're gonna be out of luck because research does not trump good grades nor does it trump not getting a good enough step 1 to get through the filters. Again, PhDs typically are an exception and get a pass on things like step 1 filters if their research is intriguing.

Remember, dedicated research also develops connections and connections are the true king/queen for derm applications.

All of the people that I know personally that got 25+ interviews had a lot of research and did take a year off, interestingly were NOT PhDs, did amazing on step 1 and on clinical grades (although one of them was not AOA), and were charming people. Bascially a rockstar. These people have appeal to both clinical and research based programs. My point is rockstars have research and typically have dedicated time for it...on the flip side you do not need to be a rockstar to match into dermatology.

 

[Dral]

My point is rockstars have research and typically have dedicated time for it...on the flip side you do not need to be a rockstar to match into dermatology.

Gotta at least be a back up singer though...roadies and groupies don't cut it.

 

[hawk126]

Good discussion everyone and agree that if you are doing a research year only to boost your derm application that's not a great idea and you might become unhappy. By the way, research does not equal pipetting in a dish. There are other kinds of research such as chart reviews, epidemiological work, etc. that can have significant progress in a summer and wrap up over MS2. When people compare to PhD, the vast majority are basic scientists (although some can be epidemiology PhDs too but this is much rarer), but there are other kinds of research out there.

Research greatly strengthens the application, by a lot, but only if 1) you have met the filters so that people actually look at your application (PhD tend to get an exemption though) and 2) you come across as genuine. If I had to rank what gets your application looked at AND called for an interview, the first pass is Step 1...if you don't do well, you may get filtered out by a computer algorithm whether you think that is fair or not. Your clinical grades are very important and having AOA status really boosts your application. Then it comes down to the individual that reads your application. Seems like a lot of people focus on (in no particular order): the letters of recommendation (by reading between the lines on the letters), your research, and the personal statement (some faculty read this closely although not everyone puts as much weight on it).

That said, if you do amazing on Step 1, are AOA, have none to a few research items, and have great letters of rec, you will likely get a lot of interviews and probably much above the "magic number" of ten or so. However, if you take that same person and put on a bunch of research publications that exhibit a drive for research and discovery, the interview count will go much higher. If you have a ton of research and don't do well on Step 1 and grades (as asmallchild points out), you're gonna be out of luck because research does not trump good grades nor does it trump not getting a good enough step 1 to get through the filters. Again, PhDs typically are an exception and get a pass on things like step 1 filters if their research is intriguing.

Remember, dedicated research also develops connections and connections are the true king/queen for derm applications.

All of the people that I know personally that got 25+ interviews had a lot of research and did take a year off, interestingly were NOT PhDs, did amazing on step 1 and on clinical grades (although one of them was not AOA), and were charming people. Bascially a rockstar. These people have appeal to both clinical and research based programs. My point is rockstars have research and typically have dedicated time for it...on the flip side you do not need to be a rockstar to match into dermatology.

Agree with nearly everything dermathalon wrote above... lots of terrific stuff in that post. The take home message though, and I think it may be lost in the nuance of what he/she wrote, is that it depends.

If you want research on your CV only because you think it will enhance your chances to match, then don't take a year if you can get publications from a couple of summers of work. As many in this thread have already pointed out, this is like a game in many ways, and you honest-to-goodness only need to be able to check the research box to clear that hurdle at most programs as long as the numbers are there. I'll take it a step further, you don't even need to do research during your MS1 and MS2 summers if your goal is to merely check the box... a case report or two written during the MS2 or even MS3 years will work, and I speak from experience.

However, I met some really talented researchers out on the trail this last year, and most of them were PhD's. So, if you want med derm at Penn, Harvard, UCSF, etc. you need to have accomplished something with your work, or you need to have demonstrated the aptitude and commitment to accomplish something in the future. The reality is that in order to do either of those two things, you need to spend the time. PD's aren't stupid and recognize when applicants are trying to represent themselves as something they're not, so be honest with yourself about what you want to get from the research experience and it will probably turn out fine either way. Good luck!!!

 

[dermathalon]

Gotta at least be a back up singer though...roadies and groupies don't cut it.

Haha, true. Gotta get the grades, get through the filters to avoid the "computer cut," and come across as genuine at the interviews. A dose of dos equis always helps.

Well said Hawk.

 

[exeunt]

if an interest in academics is what PDs are after.. how do they look upon applicants who take a year off to get a mph or mba?

 

[dermathalon]

if an interest in academics is what PDs are after.. how do they look upon applicants who take a year off to get a mph or mba?

Some PDs are quite open-minded and some are not. When you talk to PDs look at how they present themselves. If they seem to already know what is best for you, it's unlikely that they will have an open mind. If they really genuinely want to know about you, there's a better chance that they'll be open minded. Although you can control how you present yourself on paper, interviews are a ballet and you have go with the ebb and the flow of the conversation and you can't pre-predict everything.

Secondly, people have new interests as they experience residency and most people know that. Actually if you put the so-called academicians' feet to the fire, many have had varied experiences including stints in private practice too. Everyone has to find their path.

Academics does not mean basic science although there is enough snobbery to go around where the basic science is considered the best....poppycock if you ask me. MPH or MBA is fine but you'll need to weave it into your story as to why it'll be important to have you in derm as opposed to someone else. Is there some skill set here that you are going to use for derm that would not be present with anyone else.