Orthopedic Surgery, ask a resident anything

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Don't do MD/PhD for the stipend or upfront savings. Only do it if the idea of focusing a major part of your medical training and practice on research appeals to you. If this is the case you may still end up going into ortho eventually, but most MD/PhD types end up in more research focused fields. To your last point, if you YOURSELF want to spend alot of time doing research then yes your surgical skills will likely suffer. However alot of the well published/well known ortho surgeons are also known to be great surgeons and that is because most of the research is done by their residents, they just guide the ship in the right direction.

Thank you for the honest response.

Perhaps I can pickup research during med school instead of doing the PhD. This way, I can get into my desired field earlier and tailor how much research I want to do as I go along.

I'm not sure if this was already asked but how much the med school you go to affect your possibility to going into ortho?

Also, I hear that the fellowship is actually the most important thing of all, as in where you do it will be more important than where you went to med school or residency when looking for a job post-residency. How true is this, if at all?

Also, I am interested in going into academics. How much does this change the scenario about where to go to school, if I had the choice?

Thanks again for your time, means a lot!

Members don't see this ad.
 
Thank you for the honest response.

Perhaps I can pickup research during med school instead of doing the PhD. This way, I can get into my desired field earlier and tailor how much research I want to do as I go along.

I'm not sure if this was already asked but how much the med school you go to affect your possibility to going into ortho?

Also, I hear that the fellowship is actually the most important thing of all, as in where you do it will be more important than where you went to med school or residency when looking for a job post-residency. How true is this, if at all?

Also, I am interested in going into academics. How much does this change the scenario about where to go to school, if I had the choice?

Thanks again for your time, means a lot!


You definitely can and should do research in med school if you want to match a competitive residency such as orthopedics. Some even take a year off to do a research fellowship prior to graduating medical school. These are often paid positions.

The medical school you go to will sort of affect your ability to match. Top tier academic programs tend to prefer applicants from other top tier programs. However, who you know and what they have to say about you is arguably more important. In ortho you do two or three away rotations and you should maximize these opportunities by doing them At prestigious programs (provided that you are a competitive applicant) where you can get LORs from top names. This can help make up for attending a less prestigious medical school.

Residency and fellowship both matter when it comes to getting a job, where you went med school probably doesn't matter all that much. Again, who you know/who recommends you is far more important than where you trained. But, pedigree certainly plays an important role at the top names in academics. That may well inform your med school selection. Good luck.
 
All other parts of my application being equal/no red flags, how does a 239 on step 1 screw me? I keep hearing 240+ is the goal and I missed it by 1 :/
 
Members don't see this ad :)
All other parts of my application being equal/no red flags, how does a 239 on step 1 screw me? I keep hearing 240+ is the goal and I missed it by 1 :/

You will be fine as long as you improve on step 2. The step score will obviously not be the highlight of your application, but make sure something else is. You just don't want to be mediocre in everything. 240 is probably about average for those who match and there are people at (*almost) every program in the country with step 1 scores <240.

*I have heard reports that a handful of numbers-heavy programs use 240 as a cutoff.

Don't sweat it, you can't change it now. Try to take step 2 early (before your Ortho always) and if possible right after your medicine rotation
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
That's my current plan. My medicine rotation is the last rotation of third year then I plan on taking a month off for Step 2 study before 4th year rotations.

Thanks!
 
Hey RueTay

What do you think (I completely understand if you have no idea) is the most important factor that makes an person competitive for an orthopedic residency. Is it step 1 and/ or clinical grades? Is it AOA and research? Thanks.
 
I was first interested in neuro, but people say the hours are terrible. Is it the same for ortho? Or are the hours a little bit better?
 
I was first interested in neuro, but people say the hours are terrible. Is it the same for ortho? Or are the hours a little bit better?

The hours for neurosurg are longer for the most part, and of course the residency is two years longer. This is because there is far more urgent/emergent surgery that takes place in neuro, the patients are sicker so you round a lot more, and cases often take longer.


Don't be mistaken tho, The Ortho residency is a lot of work and a lot of call, especially at trauma-heavy programs. After residency you have a lot of control over how much you work. The lifestyle in Ortho can be great depending on how busy you want to be (and therefore how much $ you want to make) and how your call is structured in your group.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What are some things that can be done during pre-clinical years to increase your chances of landing an ortho residency, how many away rotations would you suggest doing, and does the research have to be strictly ortho related and done in medical school (if we've been published prior is this something that could help)? Thanks for your time, I absolutely loved my time shadowing in ortho
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank you for providing all of this information.

What is your average week like? How many days on, how many days off, average hours worked/week, etc. How much of your free time is spent reading and studying?
 
There's so much data available on the ranges of Step 1 scores for different residencies that you're better served with those data instead of a singular value. Seriously.
 
There's so much data available on the ranges of Step 1 scores for different residencies that you're better served with those data instead of a singular value. Seriously.
He asked how @RueTay did well on the exam, not his actual score. He posted his score on another thread, I believe he got just under a 240.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Ugh. That moment you're snarky as fak and get called out for reading comprehension.

I plead no contest your honor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What are some things that can be done during pre-clinical years to increase your chances of landing an ortho residency, how many away rotations would you suggest doing, and does the research have to be strictly ortho related and done in medical school (if we've been published prior is this something that could help)? Thanks for your time, I absolutely loved my time shadowing in ortho

Pre clinical years are a good time to get some research done. Any research is good and will help your app. Ortho specific research is clearly better. I would Show up to some conferences here and there so the attendings and residents recognize you and know you are interested. This way they aren't meeting you for the first time when your a third or fourth year rotator.

I did two away rotations in addition to my home ortho rotation. This is the standard. If you have a flexible schedule you can consider doing a fourth ortho rotation but consider that these rotations are difficult and if you burn out it will be a waste of a month. Still, some people do four.
 
Thank you for providing all of this information.

What is your average week like? How many days on, how many days off, average hours worked/week, etc. How much of your free time is spent reading and studying?

I work Monday- Friday from about 6 to 6 on average. Earlier if there are more patients in house to round on, and later if I get stuck in the or with a difficult case. Some days clinic gets done early afternoon, which rocks.

On the weekends I just come in to round on the inpatients which takes an hour or two. We trade off rounding responsibilities with other residents so every other weekend I usually have completely off.

I'm oncall roughly q6 right now. Technically I should leave the hospital around 10a when postcall but I usually stay the whole day unless I had a terrible night. I study and do research less than I should, probably 3-4 hours/week and I do it the night before new cases and when I'm oncall.

Rounds out to about 70-80 hrs including call

Life is good
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
How did you do well on step 1?

I didn't do THAT well. Probably better to ask someone who did 250+. I memorized first aid as best I could and did lots of questions. I did well My first two years and I think if you really learn everything the first time around it sets you up to score well on step 1.


Shoot for 240+ and your score won't get in the way of you matching ortho
 
What are your thoughts on the effect of non-ortho research on matching? I was thinking of doing oncology/derm research bc I really like the prof heading the project...
 
Do you ever miss the "medicine" aspect of being a doctor as an orthopedic surgeon? Does being an orthopedic surgeon mostly entail surgery and nothing else (with the exception of rounds). Also do you ever miss any non- Ortho surgeries? Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
What are your thoughts on the effect of non-ortho research on matching? I was thinking of doing oncology/derm research bc I really like the prof heading the project...
It is good because it shows you are interested in research and if you can take a project all the way to publication it bodes well for you. However, the topic won't spark the interest of anyone in the Ortho world. All other things being equal the programs will be MORE interested in applicants with Ortho research.
 
Can Ortho surgeons remove intramedullary spinal tumors?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do you ever miss the "medicine" aspect of being a doctor as an orthopedic surgeon? Does being an orthopedic surgeon mostly entail surgery and nothing else (with the exception of rounds). Also do you ever miss any non- Ortho surgeries? Thanks.

No, yes, and no.

It's important to remember that no matter what field you go into you are always a Doctor first, surgeon second, and specialist third, etc. As a junior Ortho resident of course you still do some medicine and gen surg. I was in the SICU for a month and you get comfortable managing critically I'll surgical patients. I workup postoperative MI, dvt/PE, and sepsis all the time when I'm oncall managing our inpatients. It's nice to have the medicine and ICU folks around so that someone actually knows what's going on :)

In general tho I'm very glad to be through with managing most complex medical problems, especially chronic disease. I just don't think that's very fun. Surgeons like fixing things with their hands and seeing immediate results, not tinkering with medications. All in all I'm looking forward to NOT doing medicine in my career.

To your second question, The most fun part is definitely surgery. Most orthopods operate 2-3 days a week and do 2-3 days of clinic a week. Our clinics are fast paced with relatively short HPIs, short but very focused and pertinent physical exams, and a lot of quick clinic procedures such as injections, aspirations, and cast changes. It is a lot of fun to see your surgical follow ups because the are so happy to be pain free and functioning well. The VAST majority of our patients have wonderful outcomes. The few who don't often have really bad problems and chronic pain... That's not fun

I don't miss other surgeries, especially dealing with bowel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Can Ortho surgeons remove intramedullary spinal tumors?


Traditionally, Neurosurg does the intradural tumors and Ortho does the bone and soft tissue tumor rejections involving the posterior spine elements and vertebral bodies. We also do most of the big spine deformity corrections. Both do your bread and butter laminectomies, diskectomies and fusions. A lot of the lines are becoming blurred as spine fellowships are taking people out of Ortho and neuro into the same programs. It's all about who you train with and what you are comfortable doing. Eventually there may be a dedicated spine surgery residency, or so I've heard. There is an Ortho spine surgeon who has a thread on here, you might ask him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Any recommendations for an incoming ortho intern on how to hit the ground running in July?
 
Already on it, although based on my away experiences it's the med students that get most of the heavy lifting
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Already on it, although based on my away experiences it's the med students that get most of the heavy lifting

Just got back from the gym. Half the dudes there were ortho residents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Thank you for replying i'm not worried trust me. The part I highlighted in my previous quote made me cringe a bit. Also you posted, "I rock". No hate towards you, becoming a doctor is a great achievement and you should obviously be proud and confident. As you can tell i'm politically incorrect poster on this forum and I get a lot of heat for it. Good luck

"I will be the most humble resident." Sounds like you think you're better than people man. Do you think you're better than people just because you're pre-med and you're gonna be the most humble resident???? After you get into medical school of course
 
Here are some considerations from one with 25 years of experience of practicing orthopedics.

For the young resident, learning the new procedures is understandably exciting and all seems to be fun and games, but the realm of private practice is much different.

Unless you practice in academic medicine, you won't have fellows, residents and medical students assisting. It will be you and a scrub nurse. The emergency room will not respect the limits of your expertise and often times you will not have the option of transferring the patient. You will have to perform emergency surgery in the middle of the night (despite a full schedule the next day), you might not get paid to do so. Perhaps unique to orthopedics is the patient mindset that the problem is "fixable" creating expectations for a perfect outcome. There is also a lot of emotional baggage that attends an acute injury or chronic pain condition and it is my experience that orthopedic patients relative to patients with medical afflictions are more demanding and less pleasant to deal with. This should come as no surprise considering that the malpractice liability for orthopedics is exceeded only by neurosurgery and OB.

No one can know what the future holds, but trends would indicate that all future trauma surgery and joint replacements might be performed by hospital-employed docs and I suspect this trend with extend to sub-specialties.

To summarize, orthopedics is a demanding profession with demanding patients and future practitioners may experience a loss of autonomy. Nevertheless, orthopedics remains one of if not the most lucrative fields in medicine, and the outcomes of intervention are much more immediate than other specialties.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Here are some considerations from one with 25 years of experience of practicing orthopedics.

For the young resident, learning the new procedures is understandably exciting and all seems to be fun and games, but the realm of private practice is much different.

Unless you practice in academic medicine, you won't have fellows, residents and medical students assisting. It will be you and a scrub nurse. The emergency room will not respect the limits of your expertise and often times you will not have the option of transferring the patient. You will have to perform emergency surgery in the middle of the night (despite a full schedule the next day), you might not get paid to do so. Perhaps unique to orthopedics is the patient mindset that the problem is "fixable" creating expectations for a perfect outcome. There is also a lot of emotional baggage that attends an acute injury or chronic pain condition and it is my experience that orthopedic patients relative to patients with medical afflictions are more demanding and less pleasant to deal with. This should come as no surprise considering that the malpractice liability for orthopedics is exceeded only by neurosurgery and OB.

No one can know what the future holds, but trends would indicate that all future trauma surgery and joint replacements might be performed by hospital-employed docs and I suspect this trend with extend to sub-specialties.

To summarize, orthopedics is a demanding profession with demanding patients and future practitioners may experience a loss of autonomy. Nevertheless, orthopedics remains one of if not the most lucrative fields in medicine, and the outcomes of intervention are much more immediate than other specialties.

Uhhh, wait, are you saying you have to go on call in private practice? Not sure how true this is unless it's a surgical complication right?

Also, you can have a PA assisting. Many of the PP guys I've talked to prefer PA's to scrub nurses for assistants.
 
Uhhh, wait, are you saying you have to go on call in private practice? Not sure how true this is unless it's a surgical complication right?

lol, I hope you're joking...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
lol, I hope you're joking...

Nope, not joking. It was in the context of someone doing stuff for ortho though so ymmv. The way I've seen it work in MA is you can sometimes rent OR's at a hospital and have office space elsewhere. If your facility is an outpatient procedure facility or if you have an agreement with a hospital to put the patients there post op, then what do you go on call for in PP. Some places, like in Tx, the surgeons own the OR's and the hospital and have a practice group. In a setting like that, yeah, they take call.

Also, I asked two questions in the post you quoted. I said nothing as near absolute. If I'm wrong, then correct me. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't care about the answer.

So thanks in advance.
 
PP orthopods definitely take call. Every situation is different but most commonly the group will cover Ortho call for the ER at the hospital they operate at. You may actually coveral several ERs at one time if your group operates at multiple sites. Hopefully you do have a PA or NP who carries the pager and takes care of the no op consults for you. Most operative orthopedic problems seen in the ER can be splinted and set up for the OR the next day or next week, but some emergencies do require an emergent operation.

And yes. Having a PA is much better. But they do cost more money than a first assist nurse. Hopefully having a good PA increases your OR productivity to the point where they pay for themselves and more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I would also add that early in your career when you are building a practice it makes sense to take call. You get paid more to do it increases your caseload.

For example you may have a few ankle fractures come in that you can add on to your elective OR schedule the following week. If you are struggling to build your caseload that can help.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Bonedoc5576 brings up some interesting points.

Yes the hospitalist movement is affecting all areas of medicine and it continues to threaten private practice Ortho. However, It's a misconception to assume this is all bad. More and more young orthopods are CHOOSING to become a hospitalist and there are a lot of perks to doing so if your goals align with the hospital's.

You will always have work as an orthopod if you are good at what you do and the pay will always be reasonable.

Also his point about patients having unrealistic expectations is right on. It is critical to manage these expectations well if you want happy patients and a happy practice. It helps if you only operate for the right indications... And that's not always the case.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
When applying to medical schools what extracurricular stuff did you do? Like volunteering, shadowing, job, and stuff like that? like a resume of everything you did. Also how much hours a day you spend studying as an undergrad studying in a day?
 
When applying to medical schools what extracurricular stuff did you do? Like volunteering, shadowing, job, and stuff like that? like a resume of everything you did. Also how much hours a day you spend studying as an undergrad studying in a day?

I was a non-traditional applicant. I applied after completing a masters degree. In undergrad I spent most my time partying and playing sports. I don't think my resume would be very helpful. My post grad performance and research is why I got into med school.
 
Here are some considerations from one with 25 years of experience of practicing orthopedics.

For the young resident, learning the new procedures is understandably exciting and all seems to be fun and games, but the realm of private practice is much different.

Unless you practice in academic medicine, you won't have fellows, residents and medical students assisting. It will be you and a scrub nurse. The emergency room will not respect the limits of your expertise and often times you will not have the option of transferring the patient. You will have to perform emergency surgery in the middle of the night (despite a full schedule the next day), you might not get paid to do so. Perhaps unique to orthopedics is the patient mindset that the problem is "fixable" creating expectations for a perfect outcome. There is also a lot of emotional baggage that attends an acute injury or chronic pain condition and it is my experience that orthopedic patients relative to patients with medical afflictions are more demanding and less pleasant to deal with. This should come as no surprise considering that the malpractice liability for orthopedics is exceeded only by neurosurgery and OB.

No one can know what the future holds, but trends would indicate that all future trauma surgery and joint replacements might be performed by hospital-employed docs and I suspect this trend with extend to sub-specialties.

To summarize, orthopedics is a demanding profession with demanding patients and future practitioners may experience a loss of autonomy. Nevertheless, orthopedics remains one of if not the most lucrative fields in medicine, and the outcomes of intervention are much more immediate than other specialties.

:(
 
As I am a resident, my institution covers me for malpractice. I can be named in a lawsuit...which would suck
 
Why do you think so many ortho docs are so unhappy with their income on medscape surveys? They are usually the top earning specialty but rank pretty low on income and career satisfaction. It seems like ortho residents are always so happy but then it seems like a switch flips when they go off on their own.
 
Why do you think so many ortho docs are so unhappy with their income on medscape surveys? They are usually the top earning specialty but rank pretty low on income and career satisfaction. It seems like ortho residents are always so happy but then it seems like a switch flips when they go off on their own.

This is a good question, seconded. I've never understood why orthopedics has such a high dissatisfaction rating.
 
This is a good question, seconded. I've never understood why orthopedics has such a high dissatisfaction rating.
Never enough gains
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Thank you for doing this Q&A.

I am interested in Ortho. I really like the though of fixing something and the result being so...palpable. However, I am concerned because I've heard that to be competitive in Ortho, other than the grades, etc.. one needs to start very early (even first year) to get the right connections, research, and so on. However, I don't want to necessarily go down one path, as I have diverse interests in medicine and honestly all of it interests me. I like the idea of Ortho most, but GU, Rads (interventional mostly) and some select IM sub-specialties really interest me. I know that's a broad range, but that's what I've deduced from my experiences so far. There are only a few specialties that I know I have zero interest in, such as Pediatrics, Neurology, and Psychiatry---not my thing.
 
Top