Oschner and Australian student in a relationship - options?

[Ashley_Green1988]

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[neulite30]

http://www.nrmp.org/match-process/couples-in-the-match/

Score well on the USMLE and (basically) your only hurdle will then be finding a program that sponsors the appropriate visa (much more accommodating for this in the US compared to Australia)

"MBBS", "MD"...doesn't matter - same degree, fewer letters (in the eyes of the NRMP, ECFMG, and residency selection committees)

 

[qldking]

You're not even married to the guy and you already want to take a difficult and costly exam that the Australian system will not prepare you for--I don't understand med students who get hitched. The whole point is to use the degree to hook up with increasingly more attractive people as your earning potential increases, not to restrict yourself to some goofball you met at a first years' barbeque or whatever.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

http://www.nrmp.org/match-process/couples-in-the-match/

Score well on the USMLE and (basically) your only hurdle will then be finding a program that sponsors the appropriate visa (much more accommodating for this in the US compared to Australia)

"MBBS", "MD"...doesn't matter - same degree, fewer letters (in the eyes of the NRMP, ECFMG, and residency selection committees)

Thanks heaps for that info, really helpful

You're not even married to the guy and you already want to take a difficult and costly exam that the Australian system will not prepare you for--I don't understand med students who get hitched. The whole point is to use the degree to hook up with increasingly more attractive people as your earning potential increases, not to restrict yourself to some goofball you met at a first years' barbeque or whatever.

It's called love. You might find it hard to believe, but 'hooking up with increasingly more attractive people as your earning potential increases' isn't the aim of every single individual in med school.

Also, restricting myself to this 'goofball' means I avoid accidentally falling into bed with charming individuals like yourself, so there are some definite perks.

 

[qldking]

That's my advice at least. I've seen too many goofy looking med students holding hands to begin to take it seriously.

Check out the USMLE. It's a tough test and UQs staunch refusal to teach any sort of basic pharmacology, biochemistry, and microbiology will put you at a distinct disadvantage--you will also need to consider that US schools are geared solely towards teaching to the USMLE from Day 1 (their funding depends on it!) and the exam is offered sporadically in Australia, only in Melbourne/Sydney.

 

[Struvite]

Think we started talking about something similar to this on the other thread. The issue with residency in the u.s. Is that it is already increasingly difficult for even IMGs to match back into the states; the latest match data shows that the match rate is roughly 50%, meaning half of all IMGs do not even get a spot. The stats are even worst for FMGs, who include non-us citizens as in this case. On that note, your boyfriend is considered an IMG, whereas you are considered an FMG.

The couples match works well for domestic AMG students. It gets trickier when the couple are both IMG and would be a bit worst for both people if one person in the couple is a FMG. This is because if one person's status is in a less than ideal situation (e.g. Needing to get a visa), then it can hamper both people (including your boyfriend in oschner) from getting a residency. This is because of the mechanism in how the match works.

That being said, thats why you have to really think if its the path you want to choose including studying extremely hard for the steps (UQ teaches like 15% of what is on step 1), getting all your recommendations from U.S. Professors (doing only one rotation isn't really going to help, but three may work), doing research with an american research group, etc. For step 1, if you haven't already done so, you absolutely must start memorizing word-for-word everything in First aid, do USMLE world questions, and possibly kaplan to even pass. Given UQ's curriculum, you'll need more than a few months of REALLY intense studying (like more than 10 hours a day just on step 1, not including having to do UQ tests which are hardly representative of step 1). Its a pain in the butt that UQ still does not appreciate the importance of this test for anyone getting a residency in the U.S. So expect little help from them.

As far as whats going to happen after a 2 year hiatus from seeing each other, its the same as any other long distance relationship.

Im sorry this is not really an ideal response you are hoping to hear, but it really is a difficult path to take. However, if you really want to do residency in the states, start studying like crazy now and youll probably need to compromise on what kind of future you are hoping to achieve.

Hi everybody,

I'm an Australian domestic medical student at UQ in a relationship with an Oschner student, and I was wanting to get some advice from anyone who has been in this situation / knows anybody who has. As you probably all know, he has to go back to America for years 3 and 4, and I have to stay here. I was planning on taking the USMLEs with the aim of moving there when I graduate, although I don't have American citizenship or any relatives there / any other ties to the US.

I was wondering if any other Australians / internationals / anybody else has had any success with this i.e graduating from an Australian medical school and then matching into a US program on graduation? Is it easier for an IMG to match at an American program if they are in a relationship with an American citizen?

I'd like to match into an internal medicine program or perhaps even primary care/general practice, which I understand isn't as competitive as some others in terms of USMLE score needed? I've also got a couple of publications (although they will be a bit outdated by the time I graduate) and I'm going to do a rotation at Oschner during year 3 or 4, so hopefully I can get a good LOR from that. Oh also I will be graduating with an MBBS, not an MD.

On a more personal note, for anybody who has tried this / knows anybody who has, how did you / they manage the long distance aspect of not seeing one another in person for months at a time etc? We will be apart for at least 2 years even if everything goes perfectly with me applying for an American internship / residency. I know it will obviously be a massive strain on the relationship, but I just wanted some reassurance that it's actually doable if you both try to make it work. I've never done long distance before so I am completely clueless.

Anyway thanks to anybody who can help me, we really do want to stay together so I just wanted to get some advice.

Thanks!

 

[Medstart108]

That's my advice at least. I've seen too many goofy looking med students holding hands to begin to take it seriously.

Check out the USMLE. It's a tough test and UQs staunch refusal to teach any sort of basic pharmacology, biochemistry, and microbiology will put you at a distinct disadvantage--you will also need to consider that US schools are geared solely towards teaching to the USMLE from Day 1 (their funding depends on it!) and the exam is offered sporadically in Australia, only in Melbourne/Sydney.

How can they fail to teach basic pharmacology or microbiology? Biochemistry I can get, but aren't the other 2 sort of perfect basic sciences material?

 

[qldking]

How can they fail to teach basic pharmacology or microbiology? Biochemistry I can get, but aren't the other 2 sort of perfect basic sciences material?

There's a total of about 2-4 lectures in Pharmacology in the first two years. The lecturer would joke about how after doing his first lecture of the year, his work was soon to be done. Supposedly some of the clinical schools 'teach' on the job pharmacology in years 3 and 4 but I didn't really see it in my experience.

Microbiology is sporadic and covered in Year 2 but nowhere near the detail you would need for USMLE. You'll notice the domestic students generally don't know anything about either topic when it reaches clinical years, and it's quite glaring. They are, however, quite proficient at all that is covered in student notes.

Biochemistry is a HUGE issue because USMLE has a lot of random biochemistry questions that theoretically could change your score by 5-10 points or more. UQ just doesn't cover it beyond the very basics.

I say all that because she is set on taking the exam and it's important that people understand that US students prepare for the USMLE the day they begin med school and nothing else, and just studying for a few weeks won't get you anywhere, unfortunately.

 

[Medstart108]

There's a total of about 2-4 lectures in Pharmacology in the first two years. The lecturer would joke about how after doing his first lecture of the year, his work was soon to be done. Supposedly some of the clinical schools 'teach' on the job pharmacology in years 3 and 4 but I didn't really see it in my experience.

Microbiology is sporadic and covered in Year 2 but nowhere near the detail you would need for USMLE. You'll notice the domestic students generally don't know anything about either topic when it reaches clinical years, and it's quite glaring. They are, however, quite proficient at all that is covered in student notes.

Biochemistry is a HUGE issue because USMLE has a lot of random biochemistry questions that theoretically could change your score by 5-10 points or more. UQ just doesn't cover it beyond the very basics.

I say all that because she is set on taking the exam and it's important that people understand that US students prepare for the USMLE the day they begin med school and nothing else, and just studying for a few weeks won't get you anywhere, unfortunately.

That is true. The reality is Australia's medical education system follows that of the UK which is a more bare bones practical style of learning. Its enough to get you by as a physician but nothing more. Its similar to the UK in that biochemistry isn't covered to nearly the same level of detail as in the step 1. In the UK though they are trying to fix the lack of pharmacology so that now the amount we learn is in step with the amount of teaching we get in other subjects. Microbiology is still weak relative to the US, a US micobio prof came to guest lecture us and we got absolutely destroyed because it was so out of our depth.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

Could part of the reason for this lack of depth when covering subjects like biochemistry, micro etc (and I agree with both of you - this is certainly true of the UQ MBBS curriculum) be that most Australian medical students already have a very strong background in these areas from their science / health science / pre-med undergrad? Although *technically* you can apply to medical school with any undergrad degree, the GAMSAT is a huge hurdle to anybody without a science background, and due to that + other factors you end up with 80-90% of the domestic cohort at UQ (similar stats at other unis here too) having pure science or health science backgrounds. Consequently, a good chunk of us have already done things like immunology, microbiology, molecular biology, genetics etc to a third year level, and the MBBS UQ curriculum seems to reflect this i.e they just give those areas a cursory 'do over' in years 1 and 2.

I understand that the American undergraduate system is a bit less 'blinkered' than ours (somebody in this thread previously mentioned that our degree system is very vocational, and they are 100% correct) and your undergraduate degrees, regardless of the degree, seem to cover a much wider range of subjects. So whereas our 'pre-meds' just do science (with some rare exceptions) - yours take subjects like philosophy, sociology etc as well. A bit of a digression, but in terms of educational value I actually prefer your undergraduate system - just covering sciences means that by the time you graduate from a three year Bachelor of Science here you invariably lack a lot of the critical analysis skills that an education in the arts will provide you with, and time and time again during post-grad when we had to design our own experiments, or analyse results, or <insert any kind of independent thinking / critical thinking>, I saw many of my pure science colleagues struggle, because all they knew was rote learning. Thankfully I elected to do part of an arts degree (regretfully got lazy halfway through and never finished...) alongside my science degree during undergrad, and the skills I learned during subjects taken in history, philosophy were unspeakably useful to me when I reached that more advanced stage in my scientific training

/digression

Anyway I just wonder if maybe this disparity between the US and Australian undergraduate educational system, and the assumptions that the graduate medical schools make WRT what people will have taken during undergrad (because remember, this degree is primarily designed with domestic students in mind) is what creates problems for the Americans who took this more 'varied' undergraduate degree before coming here, and now find the UQ MBBS curriculum lacking in the basic sciences that they need for USMLEs.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Struvite]

I think the reason for the lack of depth of knowledge comes from the idea that australian domestic students will eventually need a deeper/fine tuned knowledge of the science, but only when they become JHO/PHO/SHO when they invariably need to in order to pass their registar exam for specialities. In other words, aussie med schools know that since domestic aussies will eventually need to know the science more in depth in the future, schools like UQ will not focus on it.

When I was talking to my research advisor at UQ, she commented that american students who graduate from american med schools are equivalent to registrars in australia. Thats a huge gap in knowledge.

As an example, an american med student would be required to know not only the drug names and their clinical uses, but also their mechanisms of action, adverse side effects, and any other indications/contradindications for uses just to do a pharm question on the usmle (and there are a whole bunch of drugs to memorize its insane). There are a bunch of drugs that the school didnt even cover such as atropine, Pilocarpine, phenylephrine, and pseudepinephrine I definitely recall that wasnt covered from studying step 1. UQ just doesnt mention them at all (unless you guys already know about these from pre-med).

This is the reason why the level of science detail american med students know (and thus why step 1 requires so much preparation in the hard sciences) is usually above and beyond what a traditional aussie med student in the same year will know. That being said, I think aussie med students get a really good foundation in learning the clinical stuff through clinical coaching, PSW, bed side etiquette, and so forth which will be useful in doing Step2CS.

I don't mean to make this comment about "who is better", its just that the system is different.

Could part of the reason for this lack of depth when covering subjects like biochemistry, micro etc (and I agree with both of you - this is certainly true of the UQ MBBS curriculum) be that most Australian medical students already have a very strong background in these areas from their science / health science / pre-med undergrad? Although *technically* you can apply to medical school with any undergrad degree, the GAMSAT is a huge hurdle to anybody without a science background, and due to that + other factors you end up with 80-90% of the domestic cohort at UQ (similar stats at other unis here too) having pure science or health science backgrounds. Consequently, a good chunk of us have already done things like immunology, microbiology, molecular biology, genetics etc to a third year level, and the MBBS UQ curriculum seems to reflect this i.e they just give those areas a cursory 'do over' in years 1 and 2.

I understand that the American undergraduate system is a bit less 'blinkered' than ours (somebody in this thread previously mentioned that our degree system is very vocational, and they are 100% correct) and your undergraduate degrees, regardless of the degree, seem to cover a much wider range of subjects. So whereas our 'pre-meds' just do science (with some rare exceptions) - yours take subjects like philosophy, sociology etc as well. A bit of a digression, but in terms of educational value I actually prefer your undergraduate system - just covering sciences means that by the time you graduate from a three year Bachelor of Science here you invariably lack a lot of the critical analysis skills that an education in the arts will provide you with, and time and time again during post-grad when we had to design our own experiments, or analyse results, or <insert any kind of independent thinking / critical thinking>, I saw many of my pure science colleagues struggle, because all they knew was rote learning. Thankfully I elected to do part of an arts degree (regretfully got lazy halfway through and never finished...) alongside my science degree during undergrad, and the skills I learned during subjects taken in history, philosophy were unspeakably useful to me when I reached that more advanced stage in my scientific training

/digression

Anyway I just wonder if maybe this disparity between the US and Australian undergraduate educational system, and the assumptions that the graduate medical schools make WRT what people will have taken during undergrad (because remember, this degree is primarily designed with domestic students in mind) is what creates problems for the Americans who took this more 'varied' undergraduate degree before coming here, and now find the UQ MBBS curriculum lacking in the basic sciences that they need for USMLEs.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[qldking]

I don't think the Australians are inherently less intelligent but I definitely think the educational system here is far more vocational and career-focused than I think it should be--though most medical students generally tend to share a similar mindset often consistent with groupthink--I mean I honestly found it really pathetic that so many of the domestic students would rely on student notes as opposed to their own accumulated knowledge and the lectures instead. The problem with a degree in Medical Studies is that while it essentially makes the first two years of med school a review course, it doesn't provide you with an intellectual perspective on medicine, nor an outside appreciation for the profession--when you just study the same material for years in preparation for the same degree,, you don't really learn anything about yourself or the interactions of that designated field with the world at-large. But to be fair, most American pre-meds only take non-science classes in order to look good or to appease admissions committees, so they are no better...

That said, education in general is a total scam and an abomination, and UQ seems to be particularly shameless in its corporate pursuit of education. The days of medical students being intellectuals are long over and student bodies are now largely perfect little Eichmanns who will fit in perfectly into the corporate model instilled in the university and health system.

Also like I said you'll notice in the clinical years that the domestics tend to be clueless in basic pharmacology/microbiology to the point that it's almost comical.

 

[pre med 2014]

Tell him to stay here, get married and he automatically gets work rights. It's really easy for an Ochsner student to get PR for Australian residency if you get an Australian wife

Check the other threads for visa details I don't know a lot about it other than if you get married it helps a lot

 

[BubblegumPop]

Only Australian/NZ students with commonwealth funded places are guaranteed an internship. If you start as an international student and get PR sometime during the course you get converted to a full fee place and are still lower priority (no guarantee, but like internationals no one seems to have missed out on internship yet).
I'm not sure what you base the "really easy" to get PR comment on...?

 

[Struvite]

Only Australian/NZ students with commonwealth funded places are guaranteed an internship. If you start as an international student and get PR sometime during the course you get converted to a full fee place and are still lower priority (no guarantee, but like internationals no one seems to have missed out on internship yet).
I'm not sure what you base the "really easy" to get PR comment on...?

According to the QLD priority system as long as you are a graduate of a med school (eg UQ) AND either a 1) AUS/NZ citizen OR a 2) AUS/NZ PR then you are considered priority 1.
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/priority-interns.asp

Being guaranteed an internship is another story all together but as long as you are a PR you are considered priority 1 and thus considerably at an advantage over any one else including interstate domestics and normal international students. Although you aren't necessarily guaranteed a spot, it appears those in P1 pretty much can get what they want because they get first dibs in the seemingly random allocation process of getting an internship.
I guess premed2014 is saying if you marry an Aussie you'll automatically be granted PR and thus be considered P1. I did meet a couple of internationals who got accepted to RBWH this way via marriage to get their PR.

 

[BubblegumPop]

I was curious about where full fee people fit in on the priority ladder. I guess being priority 1 is almost as good as a guarantee.

 

[qldking]

Full fee international or full fee paying domestics?

Internationals are Priority 4, domestics in QLD (Griffith/Bond) are Priority 1

 

[pre med 2014]

According to the QLD priority system as long as you are a graduate of a med school (eg UQ) AND either a 1) AUS/NZ citizen OR a 2) AUS/NZ PR then you are considered priority 1.
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/priority-interns.asp

Being guaranteed an internship is another story all together but as long as you are a PR you are considered priority 1 and thus considerably at an advantage over any one else including interstate domestics and normal international students. Although you aren't necessarily guaranteed a spot, it appears those in P1 pretty much can get what they want because they get first dibs in the seemingly random allocation process of getting an internship.
I guess premed2014 is saying if you marry an Aussie you'll automatically be granted PR and thus be considered P1. I did meet a couple of internationals who got accepted to RBWH this way via marriage to get their PR.

Wow! A little research sure does go a long way. I thought PR simply makes you eligible to work and not actually move you up priority.

So basically if I a can intrigue an Australian woman enough to marry me I can be basically guaranteed a spot?!

Ladies I'm single

 

[neulite30]

Wow! A little research sure does go a long way. I thought PR simply makes you eligible to work and not actually move you up priority.

So basically if I a can intrigue an Australian woman enough to marry me I can be basically guaranteed a spot?!

Ladies I'm single

It takes 2 years to get PR after you have married, if I recall correctly.

 

[pre med 2014]

Oh I guess that would be too easy. OP tell your bf to marry you before going to Ochsner and after 2 years he gets PR before intern interviews

 

[BubblegumPop]

But I think Ochsner is category 6 (offshore campuses* along with Monash Malaysia http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/priority-interns.asp) so I'm not sure the priority status of an Ochsner student who gets PR while completing the course?

 

[pre med 2014]

But I think Ochsner is category 6 (offshore schools along with Monash Malaysia http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/priority-interns.asp) so I'm not sure the priority status of an Ochsner student who gets PR while completing the course?

No Oschner is not an offshore school. We get our degree from UQ thus we are priority 4

 

[BubblegumPop]

Sorry, I meant to write "offshore campuses." If this is something that may impact you then I think you should double check your understanding of it with someone official who knows for sure. International medical graduates aren't considered in the priority system so I don't know which other schools they would be referring to in category 6 other than UQ-Ochsner and Monash Malaysia.

 

[pitman]

Ochsner grads as of this year are P6 (along with Monash Malaysia). This has been discussed and confirmed at least at the AMAQ CDT level, but also by common sense (as bubblegumPop reasons).

It doesn't matter that Ochsner is part of UQ, it is indeed one of two offshore Australian campuses.

 

[Struvite]

But I think Ochsner is category 6 (offshore campuses* along with Monash Malaysia http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/priority-interns.asp) so I'm not sure the priority status of an Ochsner student who gets PR while completing the course?

Can probably ask but if you are a PR in oschner i think they would prefer you to transfer into the 4 yr program as they already have this process in place with the paperwork. Im not sure but its easier once you have the PR regardless

 

[pre med 2014]

Ochsner grads as of this year are P6 (along with Monash Malaysia). This has been discussed and confirmed at least at the AMAQ CDT level, but also by common sense (as bubblegumPop reasons).

Last priority now? I was feeling too useful as a 1st year medical student anyways

 

[qldking]

Last priority now? I was feeling too useful as a 1st year medical student anyways

Don't worry, UQ is more than happy to take your 220k tuition and funnel you out of the country.

 

[pitman]

Kinda weird saying that about a program which is explicitly designed to train Americans for American residency.

Sure, it was a better deal when Ochsner students could get Australian internship, as they have despite qldking's previous misinformed rants to the contrary, but it has always been their policy that Ochsner was for Americans who wanted to practice in the US.

It is doing precisely this, and those who join the program do so precisely to do that. It's the nature of a free market to allow people to choose where and how they spend their money, so why do you insist on disparaging other people's choices for their own lives, qldking? Do you have so little respect for them?

 

[qldking]

You're confused, pittman. Yet again.

What I am against are the schools' parasitic nature. If you aren't disgusted by the fact that internship has become a corporate process and that medical graduates are going to be out of a job, then I seriously question your basic understanding of the words 'integrity' and 'responsibility'. Most of these students are not making these decisions out of a position of privilege-many lost out on the medical admissions game back home and most are taking out enormous loans. This was never a problem until the schools decided to go out of control and ruin this generation of doctors' future.

Education is not a free market. It hasn't been for some time now. Simple logic would go a long way if you were able to apply it.

You can call me whatever you want or say whatever you want but the facts speak for themselves. NOBODY applies straight for a CMI internship---it's a consolation prize, a pity piece, a fool's good for those who are going to be screwed by the process.

 

[pitman]

You are seriously disturbed if you think your generalized rant above is a response to anything I just said in response to your continued patronizing comments about those who choose to go to Ochsner, or UQ, or anywhere else in light of your admissions that your real agenda is against ALL modern education, based on your general belief that it is enslaved by evil corporate interests (and all the usual conspiracy **** that goes with it). Everyone knows that education is business.

Again, either your rants are non-unique and thus irrelevant to anyone here in this thread who's interested in their options for medical school, or they are irrelevant because of your patronizing characterizations of those who are making choices from among their options. You pretend to be simply "informing" people of "facts", when all you're doing is pretending to be referring to something particularly nefarious about UQ or Ochsner, or Australia, or whatever, despite being proven wrong on every specific claim that you try to make, because fake specifics to you are simply something for you to wrap around your own all-consuming anti-education paranoid dogma.

As to CMI spots...you AGAIN have demonstrated no clue as to what you're talking about. Nobody "applies straight for a CMI internship" because the spots aren't even made available until all other spots are taken! They are different spots, above and beyond the state-based spots, and despite your truly uninformed opinion of them, they have the same endpoint as any other internship spot and are appreciated by those who get them. You wanna challenge that and make up crap about them? Go ahead and reveal once again how misinformed and deceptive you are. I will take on you and your manufactured nonsense any day.

 

[qldking]

'Everyone knows that education is business'

Exactly. And that's the one constant in the entire tsunami. The universities practicing abject, overt fraud.

I feel like having a discussion with you is like trying to make sense with a corporate boy. You are completely unable to perceive anything beyond the straight and narrow.

 

[pitman]

And there you have it, again admitting your issue is education-wide.

You have just confirmed that your rants have nothing specific to do with the topics of the threads you are posting to, which makes your behavior troll-like.

Cease and desist, qldking.

 

[qldking]

Nothing troll-like in my behavior. You're still unable to process the larger effects of the tsunami. People like you who back the university system as some sort of free market system in which students are the 'consumers' and must hedge their futures against the nefarious actions of the universities are absolutely appalling.

 

[pitman]

I have commented frequently on the ills of the tsunami. I do that in appropriate threads. What you have been doing is essentially the following:

Someone starts a thread about how to apply to Ochsner/UQ/Australian med.
You respond, "Education is a corporatized evil that suck your money and spits you out!"

Even worse, you pretend that your issue is with the specific topic at hand in order to sound topical, until you're challenged on your (false) facts, and then you admit it is instead a far more general problem that you have.

Continuing along these lines, spewing your general issues in threads intended for specific topics, as you have admitted doing multiple times now, is...trolling. I repeat, cease and desist from such behavior.

 

[qldking]

Everything I have said is true. I agree with the other guy on here who was saying you are only here to hear your own voice and insult anyone who does not agree with you.

Also, telling the moderators to ban me is pathetic. Please stop doing that.

 

[pitman]

I don't tell them to do anything. And I agree with the many who have asked you over and over not to derail threads and not to make things up.

 

[owlegrad]

Trolls love attention. It's like they say, feed a flu, starve a troll.