Ouch - 9 rejections!! Advice please?

[lucyvanpelt]

Like a few others on these forums, I didn't get into any of the PhD programs I applied to for the fall. I was, however, accepted to the MA program at Columbia TC, which bills itself as a sort of PhD prep school. I am trying to figure out whether to attend or if there is an alternate route to strengthening my application.

Some background information: I majored in English, had 3.9 GPA, scored 700+ on all of the GREs (gen. & psych), took some psych courses as an undergrad and more in the past few years an a non-degree student, worked for 2 yrs as a counselor in a psychiatric program and 1 yr as an RA at a major university/hospital. In this application season I got 2 interviews, and was waitlisted at one of those schools. I've managed to get some feedback from other program directors as to why my application was not favorably reviewed: 1, I wasn't specific enough in terms of naming an area of interest, and 2, I seemed ambivalent about committing to research/academia.

So, I am wondering if the knowledgeable readers out there might have any answers to a few questions:

-would a Psyd be more appropriate? I am primarly leaning toward clinical work;
-would there be any definite benefit to attending TC that outweighs the big price tag;
-what are some ways to improve my app. for PsyD & PhD programs for next year, other than attending TC?????

Thanks so much - any advice would be really helpful!!!!!

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[cara susanna]

Why don't you look at balanced PhD programs?

 

[lucyvanpelt]

yeah that's one thing I'm so confused about! I didn't apply to any program that ranked greater than "5" in the "insider's guide"...

 

[FreudianSlip7]

Like a few others on these forums, I didn't get into any of the PhD programs I applied to for the fall. I was, however, accepted to the MA program at Columbia TC, which bills itself as a sort of PhD prep school. I am trying to figure out whether to attend or if there is an alternate route to strengthening my application.

Some background information: I majored in English, had 3.9 GPA, scored 700+ on all of the GREs (gen. & psych), took some psych courses as an undergrad and more in the past few years an a non-degree student, worked for 2 yrs as a counselor in a psychiatric program and 1 yr as an RA at a major university/hospital. In this application season I got 2 interviews, and was waitlisted at one of those schools. I've managed to get some feedback from other program directors as to why my application was not favorably reviewed: 1, I wasn't specific enough in terms of naming an area of interest, and 2, I seemed ambivalent about committing to research/academia.

So, I am wondering if the knowledgeable readers out there might have any answers to a few questions:

-would a Psyd be more appropriate? I am primarly leaning toward clinical work;
-would there be any definite benefit to attending TC that outweighs the big price tag;
-what are some ways to improve my app. for PsyD & PhD programs for next year, other than attending TC?????

Thanks so much - any advice would be really helpful!!!!!

You seem to have great credentials. I would see the only utility of getting a master's degree is to help a person make up for deficits and/or to figure out more of what their interests are.

From what the person told you, I would think you weren't very clear in your personal statement as to what areas interest you the most-in other words, your "fit" seems to be what caused the rejections. You don't have to be specific in terms of models or assessment tests, but you should have a solid idea of what specific population (i.e. children, adults, minorities) and/or area of psychology (i.e. neuropsychology, geropsychology) and/or area of psychopathology (depression, anxiety, schizophrenia) and you should be able to exhibit some sort of knowledge in whatever area most interests you. Ideally, you want to be able to make clear connection from your research or clinical experience to your area(s) of interest.

If you did not mention a strong interest in research or academics, perhaps a Psy.d. would be better. However, it could be that you applied to more research-oriented PhD programs; next time look for ones that focus more on clinical training or one that is equally focused. Keep in mind that PsyD programs are less likely to fund you and some of those that are not university-standing ones tend to not have the best reputations-so just be mindful of that when researching schools.

Ultimately a master's would be helpful, but you will have to maintain a stellar GPA, it will be expensive. You could just use the year to get more research experience to help narrow your interest and figure out if a PhD is truly the way you want to go.

 

[cara susanna]

The Inside's Guide isn't very accurate in that respect, IMO. Usually balanced programs explicitly say on their website that they place equal emphasis on research and clinical training.

Would you mind providing a list of the schools you applied to, or maybe just give one example?

 

[lucyvanpelt]

thanks for your interest, guys, it means a lot to me to hear from others who have been in similar situations --

some of the programs i applied to were GW, UMass Boston, TC, Northwestern (Feinberg), Michigan, UMBC.

i think that as freudianslip pointed out, a big problem was lack of specificity regarding what population/pathology/approach i wanted to take.

can i figure out how i'd like to specialize without going back to school? i'm SURE that further education would be really helpful for sharpening my focus, but maybe it's not the only route. and, if i apply to psyd programs, do i still need to be as specific as possible in terms of clinical interests?

 

[cara susanna]

Yeah, those are really research-heavy programs AFAIK, especially Michigan. I don't have any personal experience applying to them, but I would try to find programs where it isn't considered a kiss of death to say that you want to do clinical work after graduating.

Research match is also important though, so yeah.

 

[FreudianSlip7]

Those schools are more research oriented and some are very difficult to get in. I think the best way to find out if a program is more clinically focus is to check their website, curriculum, and make a few contacts before applying; you can't always go by books and even websits can be a bit misleading or not up-to-date. I also think that because of your credentials(being a counselor at a psychiatric facility for two years and RA for one year), that those reviewing your application would have expected you to have a much better idea or awareness of your specific interest versus someone who didn't have these types of credentials.

I think when you have that sort of experience people assume that is to gain insight on what you really want to do, so the fact that you were not clear makes a person not want to that chance especially considering that you have background, academically speaking, in an entirely different field. Perhaps taking a few more psychology course in addition to getting more hands-on experience will help.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Eruca]

I agree with much of the above. Going for a Masters does not seem necessary. You have outstanding creds! Seriously, well done. My guess would also be ambivalence and fit. I would also wonder if you perhaps undersold yourself somehow. Those are some rather research heavy programs, so you may want to diversify a bit more next time.

One good way of getting the inside scoop on programs is to attend one of the major annual conferences. Something like ABCT, APA, APS, etc. That way you can meet some current students, maybe sneak in a few questions during a poster session... I definitely think there is a place for you, it's just a matter of finding the right one

 

[lucyvanpelt]

Any suggestions for schools that are more 'balanced' (ie won't slam the door in your face if you suggest you like doing clinical work)?

At this point, impatient as I am to return to school, I'm really leaning against going to TC, and instead thinking about finding a more interesting RA job and applying next fall to more clinically-oriented programs.

The advice I'm getting seems to be that I don't need any major improvement in my credentials, rather that I need to figure out how to 'sell' myself more efficiently.

 

[Wildcat06]

I interviewed at Feinberg and I think it's actually a great balanced program. The others I think are more research oriented.

But otherwise I agree with everyone else. You are a great candidate and don't need a masters.

 

[cara susanna]

University of North Dakota is very balanced, as are Eastern Michigan University and American (supposedly American is, anyway). University of Montana apparently depends on who you work with. U of Kentucky claims to be balanced, but I didn't interview there so I dunno if it's true (maybe cardamom or someone else would have input into that?)

 

[clinpsych1]

the cuny program (phd) in clinical psych is pretty balanced, if not leaning toward clinical work. i interviewed there this year and they really hyped up their clinical training.

i also was rejected from 9 programs and i interviewed at 6! i have a master's degree in dev. psych, so the masters isn't a guarantee to get you in, if that helps.

 

[deleted176373]

-would a Psyd be more appropriate? I am primarly leaning toward clinical work;
-would there be any definite benefit to attending TC that outweighs the big price tag;
-what are some ways to improve my app. for PsyD & PhD programs for next year, other than attending TC?????

Thanks so much - any advice would be really helpful!!!!!

My first year. 4.0 GPA, 1300 GRE, 680 Psych. 15 apps, 1 waitlist, 14 rejections and only 2 interviews. I was devastated. I went through the same internal crisis. Should I just go to a professional program, etc...

Applied the next year and had over a 50% interview rate, was accepted at my #1 choice, and gained 3 acceptances. Dust yourself off and try again! Focus on FIT, that is the key...

Mark

 

[AryaStark]

The University of Maine is very balanced I found.

 

[cardamom]

University of North Dakota is very balanced, as are Eastern Michigan University and American (supposedly American is, anyway). University of Montana apparently depends on who you work with. U of Kentucky claims to be balanced, but I didn't interview there so I dunno if it's true (maybe cardamom or someone else would have input into that?)

UK is ranked a 5 in the Insiders Guide I believe, and it's balanced in that you could definitely either be a academic/researcher or clinician after training there (and students do both), but I think you'd likely have to go in with a strong interest in research to be considered. UMass Boston is ranked a 4 and seems similar. The grad students at American gave me and another interviewee I spoke with the impression that was if anything leaning slightly more toward the clinical side. That said, you still have to do a ton of research in all of those programs, and so they're all going to want to know that you can do it and want to do it.

To lucyvp, looking at your stats, I do wonder if it is in fact also a lack of research experience that's the issue, especially when combined with not being a psych major. One year as an RA isn't that much in and of itself, especially when plenty of psych majors are going to have experience as undergrad RAs, do a thesis or some sort of independent research, and then maybe even an RA position post-grad. You didn't mention if you had any posters/publications, but if not, you might want to add to the research side of your CV. I'd look into getting an RA position that would allow you to prepare at least a poster of your own. I'd also recommend considering a two year position, because then you have time to get much more out of it, and most of the best ones are two years in my experience anyway.

 

[lucyvanpelt]

Clinpsych1 - I interviewed at CUNY too, and yeah they really stressed the clinical training they do there. I was excited about that program and am really irked that I never received an official rejection from them, only a couple cryptic messages that "all offers have been made" when I tried to contact the dept!

Markp - thanks for the encouragement, hopefully I can apply some concrete lessons from what went wrong this year the way you did.

Arya, Cara - thanks for the suggestions.

Cardamom - since we're all anonymous here, I will go ahead and say that though my RA position has been valuable in terms of learning about the process (grant submissions, posters, IRB, etc) I really am not interested in the population I am working with and the type of study we are doing here (hint: partial funding from a major pharm co). So I agree that I would learn more, and have more to brag about in an essay/interview, if I were involved in research that matched my interests better. I will start looking around for other openings at the university where I work. I did help with some posters but it wasn't the type of project where I felt any ownership or stake in the work, so in that sense it's true that my 'personal' research has been very limited.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Your raw stats are clearly there. They are incredibly impressive - much more than mine were.

So a few things happened: Bad fit/Bad interviews/Unclear personal statement. Or just bad luck.

I agree with Mark - dust yourself off and try again. The Master's degree isn't necessary for you.

Also, definitely apply to more balacned programs. Someone mentioned UMass-Boston...they may be a 4 in the book but they are much more on the research side.

Jon

 

[FrattyFrat]

Lucy, I can only tell you from places I've personally interviewed, that Suffolk, Drexel, UCSB CCSP (all clinical), and UMD- College Park Counseling are all great and balanced programs. I personally agree with most posters who said you probably don't need your master's.

Something that may help you on your next round of interviews is also to contact grad students who are in your POI's lab BEFORE the interview. Ask them what research the lab is currently working on, and use that information in your interview (i.e. suggest ideas for future research based on existing projects).

GOOD LUCK!

 

[deleted176373]

Markp - thanks for the encouragement, hopefully I can apply some concrete lessons from what went wrong this year the way you did.

Call them and ASK them. I did, and I learned some interesting stuff. Additionally take those rankings of 1-7 with a BIG grain of salt. Some schools try to put a research spin when the are in fact pumping out clinicians.

Mark

 

[Bella24]

So I agree mostly with the previous posters. I don't think you need a masters, though it seems like it might help to get a little more experience one way or another (work, classes, etc) in order to clarify your interests. I have almost exactly the same scores as you do, got 13 interviews and 6 acceptances. I went to nine interviews (way too many!), asked a ton of questions, and really got a sense of where the grad students were heading after graduating. Here is what I concluded (and current grad students, correct me if I'm wrong). Almost all funded Ph.D. programs want to accept aspiring researchers, few produce only (or even mostly) researchers. There are major exceptions to this rule (UCLA, Penn, Pittsburgh, University of Washington, ...). However, most of the programs listed as a "6" in my book ended up producing half researchers and half clinicians. I would stay away from the "7"'s, but I wouldn't limit yourself to the "balanced" programs. As long as you can stand doing research for the next five years in order to earn your keep, then applying to a variety of programs might be a good idea. However, whatever small part of you wants to be a researcher, emphasize that in your application. Don't talk about wanting to be a full-time clinician in your application, even when applying to the balanced programs. Then, in your interview, try to get a really good sense of where students end up after they graduate. If someone tells you that clinical is a "dirty word" in their department, or if every single student ends up a researcher, steer clear, but otherwise I'm guessing you'll be ok. It seems like the difference in our applications may have been only in the personal statement, and I'd be happy to send mine along if you want to take a look. I had a ton of help from a grad student in writing mine, so I need to pass on the good karma : ). Good luck!

 

[cara susanna]

Ehh, I would say in your SOP that you want to do both. Assuming that it's true, that is.

 

[Bella24]

I should clarify a little. The reason I would encorage you to look at programs that claim to be more research oriented is that they tend to have better funding. My take on this is that there are many fields wherein it makes sense to go into a lot of debt for your schooling (business, law, etc.) becasue you are able to pay off the debts relatively quickly after graduating. I don't think psychology is one of them. I would definitely stay away from Psy.D's and Masters programs unless you are unable to get into a funded program or really can't stand the thought of doing research during your graduate career.

 

[PsyGirl262]

Auburn and Georgia State University have balanced programs, where students feel perfectly comfortable acknowledging that their goal is to be a clinician. Almost everywhere I interviewed, though, there seemed to be young faculty coming in tilting the program toward the "clinical scientist" model, but you can still have a balanced program. Also, the PsyD at Indiana State University requires research and a dissertation, but is also almost fully funded, requires no master's thesis, and you do not have to pick a mentor immediately, all factors that are good if you come in with only a general idea of your interests.

 

[psychmama]

Another balanced program: Fairleigh Dickinson (FDU). ALthough I believe they only fund at about 50%.

 

[Eruca]

Here is what I concluded (and current grad students, correct me if I'm wrong). Almost all funded Ph.D. programs want to accept aspiring researchers, few produce only (or even mostly) researchers. There are major exceptions to this rule (UCLA, Penn, Pittsburgh, University of Washington, ...). However, most of the programs listed as a "6" in my book ended up producing half researchers and half clinicians. I would stay away from the "7"'s, but I wouldn't limit yourself to the "balanced" programs. As long as you can stand doing research for the next five years in order to earn your keep, then applying to a variety of programs might be a good idea. However, whatever small part of you wants to be a researcher, emphasize that in your application. Don't talk about wanting to be a full-time clinician in your application, even when applying to the balanced programs. Then, in your interview, try to get a really good sense of where students end up after they graduate. If someone tells you that clinical is a "dirty word" in their department, or if every single student ends up a researcher, steer clear, but otherwise I'm guessing you'll be ok. It seems like the difference in our applications may have been only in the personal statement, and I'd be happy to send mine along if you want to take a look. I had a ton of help from a grad student in writing mine, so I need to pass on the good karma : ). Good luck!

I think this is a rather astute observation of the interview process. My program is research-oriented and pulls for folks who express interest in pursuing academic careers - however, probably only maybe 60% actually seek tenure-track positions post graduation (and that's a conservative estimate, it might be 50/50). I also think that you probably cannot overstate your interest in research, but you can overstate your interest in being a clinician for this purpose. When I interviewed, it was implicit that you go with the party line. (I actually wasn't sure either way at the time) But we get excellent clinical training and at the end of the day, once you're in, you sort of can do what you want. It might disappoint some people or have other difficulties attached, but in my case, it was totally worth it. Like I said, I wasn't duplicitous since I didn't really know my career trajectory (I'm off to internship in 2 mos and I'm still not completely sure!)... if you came off at all as ambivalent, then you may have shot your awesome scores in the foot.

 

[lucyvanpelt]

I think there is a fine line between "open to both research and clinical training" as you were, Eruca, and "ambivalent," as I fear I may have come across. My undergraduate psych professor with whom I've been in contact has given me similar advice -- not to "bluff" exactly, but to tow the line in terms of naming a specific research interest and sounding confident in my desire to be in academia even if I'm not 100% certain that my interests won't change or develop over the course of my training.

When I interviewed at Umass Boston it was very notable that though the program overall was 'balanced' and encouraged clinical training, my POI was extremely determined that HER students become researchers and felt she would be wasting time on a student who might choose another path. Though I admired the program on the whole and was upset of course by the rejection, it was also a bit of a relief to know that I wouldn't be fighting that battle (not wanting to disappoint her vs. wanting to become a good clinician) for the next 6 years!

Bella, I want to take you up on your offer and read your statement. That would be SO helpful. Please please please pm it to me. I have some ideas of where I went wrong in my statement but I think reading others' successful statements could make that so much more concrete. I can't believe how much great advice and support I've gotten here.

I am deciding to forgo the masters. I'm going to try and find another RA job and some volunteer/part time work that will hopefully align with and clarify my interests in the coming months.

 

[lucyvanpelt]

Psygirl - I was just looking at IUP! I contacted the director there the other day to learn more about the program and she is very welcoming! Did you interview there, or have friends in the department?

 

[cara susanna]

I interviewed at places that actually said "We're perfectly fine with you wanting to be a clinician!" However, I also talked a lot about my research and future ideas, which I probably sounded enthusiastic about because, well, I am enthusiastic about it. So I don't think I came across as someone who is only putting up with research to get into a funded program. Also, when they asked me what my career goal was, I said both research and clinical work.

lucy: If you got interviews, it probably wasn't your SOP. Unless you feel like fixing your SOP will give you a better idea of what to say during interviews.

 

[Eruca]

lucy: If you got interviews, it probably wasn't your SOP. Unless you feel like fixing your SOP will give you a better idea of what to say during interviews.

I may have to disagree, as I think Lucy said she got interviews, but only two.. so it still stands that her SOP (which essentially encapsulates a conceptualization of "fit") may have had an impact on rejections, particularly given her stellar scores, etc. Having that said, it is all so contextual - meaning, it really does depend on the particular program.

I learned this same lesson again for internship applications. I got many more rejections than my experience & credentials would predict. However, I felt extremely appreciated at the interviews I did go to, and matched to my 1st choice with only 3 rankings. I happened to match to a program with an exceptional fit, and it was very obvious during my interview day (I think I said, "you're totally speaking my language" about 20 times that day)... this to me, is extremely telling.

 

[cara susanna]

Ah, that's true. Good point. I'd be happy to PM my SOP, but I only got 3/8 interviews... of course, I think that was partially because of my lower GRE scores.

 

[lucyvanpelt]

cara: yes please!

 

[lucyvanpelt]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to thank everyone for their encouragement and also post that - WOOHOO!!! - I just received a last-minute offer from a fantastic, fully-funded program to study community and clinical psych in the fall!!!!! I did NOT see that coming... in fact I had already signed a lease to stay in my current city another year!! BUT, after a lot of stress, I have a GREAT offer on my hands. Now, to go celebrate!

 

[sugarhi385]

That is AWESOME - how exciting! I'm so glad it all worked out for you in the end. You should definitely go out to dinner, have a beer, and spend some time with friends to celebrate ^_^ Congrats!

I just wanted to thank everyone for their encouragement and also post that - WOOHOO!!! - I just received a last-minute offer from a fantastic, fully-funded program to study community and clinical psych in the fall!!!!! I did NOT see that coming... in fact I had already signed a lease to stay in my current city another year!! BUT, after a lot of stress, I have a GREAT offer on my hands. Now, to go celebrate!

 

[cara susanna]

Wow, that's great! It's always nice to hear of those last-minute-good-news stories

 

[coloradocutter]

Where are you attending this fall?