P/F Board Scores and P/F Schools

[meant2be10]

What do you guys think will be the effect of P/F board scores if you come from a pass/fail school? Do you think this will negatively effect your chances of getting into specialty programs because there is no way to quantitatively rank/compare these students?

Would you consider not choosing a P/F school because of the upcoming P/F boards?

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[JBieber]

apparently there will be separate specialty tests. so nothing really changes apart from taking an additional test to apply for residencies.

 

[Charmm]

No test yet; I'm sorry to say it but up to now, most d schools did not agree in separate specialty test (s). Heart braking.

 

[Kahr]

I don't how it really works, but it would be pretty sad if residency directors put all applicants from P/F schools behind applicants from grade based programs automatically.

I know it's not entirely feasible/realistic, but at that level, I think interviews, ref letters, experience, etc should be the dominating factor in selection. What would these pre-residency tests test you on that the boards don't already cover? Seems a bit redundant like the USAF requiring the GRE for its residencies.

 

[flapaTron]

I don't how it really works, but it would be pretty sad if residency directors put all applicants from P/F schools behind applicants from grade based programs automatically.

this will never, ever happen.


to all of the above posters, please read the ADEA's report ("a meaningful score or a score without meaning") as to why they are making the boards pass-fail. it actually makes sense.

a good quote from the report that sums up their rationale:
"The Joint Commission is confident that there is little measurement error at the minimum passing point, but the error increases slightly as the scores depart from that point. This means for example that there is no guarantee that there is a difference in the knowledge and ability of the candidate who achieves an 89 and the candidate who achieves a 90."

 

[JBieber]

this will never, ever happen.


to all of the above posters, please read the ADEA's report ("a meaningful score or a score without meaning") as to why they are making the boards pass-fail. it actually makes sense.

a good quote from the report that sums up their rationale:
"The Joint Commission is confident that there is little measurement error at the minimum passing point, but the error increases slightly as the scores depart from that point. This means for example that there is no guarantee that there is a difference in the knowledge and ability of the candidate who achieves an 89 and the candidate who achieves a 90."

thanks for this. makes more sense now..

No test yet; I'm sorry to say it but up to now, most d schools did not agree in separate specialty test (s). Heart braking.

Really??? so they're dropping the whole NBME idea for omfs admissions??

 

[flapaTron]

Really??? so they're dropping the whole NBME idea for omfs admissions??

no, this is not true. NBME is fair game according to notes from the recent AAOMS meeting in Chicago. however, nothing is set in stone yet.

everyone just chill

 

[Docplaque]

I'm just curious, what are some of these pass/fail dental schools? I'm nit a slacker, but I have intention of spealizing. I would be very grateful just being a general dentist. Also how difficult is it getting into a GPR?

 

[flapaTron]

I'm just curious, what are some of these pass/fail dental schools? I'm nit a slacker, but I have intention of spealizing. I would be very grateful just being a general dentist. Also how difficult is it getting into a GPR?

there are only a handful: Columbia, Harvard, UConn, UCLA and maybe a few others i don't remember

 

[Sauce]

there are only a handful: Columbia, Harvard, UConn, UCLA and maybe a few others i don't remember

UCSF can be added to that list for more completeness.

You may notice that these schools that are P/F are not your "easy" schools to get into. I am not trying to open a can of worms saying they are better or anything like that. What I am saying is that if you go to a P/F school thinking its going to be a walk in the park just because there are not grades you will find it is not the case. Dental school is still tough no matter what and if you are at one of those schools you are in a place where there are perhaps some of the most competitive applicants in the country. Now to stand out amongst your peers for letters of recommendation is a little bit harder since everyone is already an over-achiever from before coming to dental school.

 

[oriJINal]

there are only a handful: Columbia, Harvard, UConn, UCLA and maybe a few others i don't remember

Are you sure about UCLA?
I heard they changed to letter grades starting class of 2014.

 

[nanilla]

ucla is p/f and you can get honors in classes as well.

 

[flapaTron]

ucla is p/f and you can get honors in classes as well.

yeah i heard from a 1st year there that the faculty just dropped the H/P/F thing on them during orientation but all of them were expecting only P/F. What a bummer that must of been.

 

[OG1]

a good quote from the report that sums up their rationale:
"The Joint Commission is confident that there is little measurement error at the minimum passing point, but the error increases slightly as the scores depart from that point. This means for example that there is no guarantee that there is a difference in the knowledge and ability of the candidate who achieves an 89 and the candidate who achieves a 90."

This is a total copout on the part of the Joint Commission. There might be no difference between an 89 and a 90, but there is a world of difference between a 90 and an 80, or especially a passing score and a 99. Bottom line is that someone who studies harder and goes into the test with more knowledge will get a higher score. If the scores were completely random and I studied my butt off to just get a 75 their reasoning would make sense, but I got a great score because I worked my A off.

The whole pass/fail push began with the score debacle the Joint Commission created when they restructured the test 4 years ago. I think they just don't want to go through the extra effort to standardize the test. A pass/fail system will also allow them to make changes at will without having to worry about reworking the system and accidentally creating another sudden 5-point-across-the-board score drop a-la 2007.

 

[GTFOOMICT]

This is a total copout on the part of the Joint Commission. There might be no difference between an 89 and a 90, but there is a world of difference between a 90 and an 80, or especially a passing score and a 99. Bottom line is that someone who studies harder and goes into the test with more knowledge will get a higher score. If the scores were completely random and I studied my butt off to just get a 75 their reasoning would make sense, but I got a great score because I worked my A off.

The whole pass/fail push began with the score debacle the Joint Commission created when they restructured the test 4 years ago. I think they just don't want to go through the extra effort to standardize the test. A pass/fail system will also allow them to make changes at will without having to worry about reworking the system and accidentally creating another sudden 5-point-across-the-board score drop a-la 2007.

You bet there is a difference between a 99 and a 90. That's not the reality in comparing people though. 90 vs 91. 95 vs 96. The 89 vs 90 is a big one in OMS.

The ADA/ADEA/Joint Commission should have just made the test correct and ensure the integrity of scores.

If you dig deeper, you will see there are major issues with the test. But for our 1 standardized test to become P/F is extremely disappointing and moving in the wrong direction. The 2007-2008 scores are a great example.

 

[browncrack]

The test is already p/f. You either get >75 or you don't. ADEA should just charge the curious test-takers extra to tell them their actual numerical score. A huge number of people are satisfied with p/f. Some people want to know a specific score for a specific reason and can pay extra for the privilege.

 

[Charmm]

The test is already p/f. You either get >75 or you don't. ADEA should just charge the curious test-takers extra to tell them their actual numerical score. A huge number of people are satisfied with p/f. Some people want to know a specific score for a specific reason and can pay extra for the privilege.

this is actually one of the possibilities

 

[DrJeff]

You bet there is a difference between a 99 and a 90. That's not the reality in comparing people though. 90 vs 91. 95 vs 96. The 89 vs 90 is a big one in OMS.
.

Yup, but there are plenty of examples over the years of folks with an 89 getting into a OMS program and folks with a 99 not getting into a program.

Board scores are just 1 of the items used when a program is choosing people they would like to fill their available positions. What is often just as important (if not even more important) is how a candidate interviews as an actual, real person, not just a numerical number. Since the residency program administrators and all the attending will have to actually deal with that person during the duration of the residency, and if you have a person with a 99 on the boards who comes off during the interview as a complete and total arrogant jerk, that could be far more detrimental to that person getting ranked by that program than a person with much lower board scores and who comes off as a great person.

Plus, the vast majority of programs out there have had experiences with residents from most d-schools, so very often d-school past resident reputations/experiences and/or actually interaction between residency directors at various programs/schools can make a HUGE difference for that "great" candidate with lower scores as well as that "jerk" with higher scores.

 

[flapaTron]

You bet there is a difference between a 99 and a 90. That's not the reality in comparing people though. 90 vs 91. 95 vs 96. The 89 vs 90 is a big one in OMS.

The ADA/ADEA/Joint Commission should have just made the test correct and ensure the integrity of scores.

If you dig deeper, you will see there are major issues with the test. But for our 1 standardized test to become P/F is extremely disappointing and moving in the wrong direction. The 2007-2008 scores are a great example.

i agree. this is definitely what should have been done in the first place.

 

[cactuscooler]

no, this is not true. NBME is fair game according to notes from the recent AAOMS meeting in Chicago. however, nothing is set in stone yet.

everyone just chill

I'm pretty sure it IS set in stone that the NBME will be used across the nation as the new admissions requirement for OMFS. Last year's residents took the exam (not for admission) but I really don't see them having a good, set baseline to evaluate residents until the test has been administered for a few years.

 

[UltimateHombre]

there are only a handful: Columbia, Harvard, UConn, UCLA and maybe a few others i don't remember

Also add Roseman... Haha!

 

[MowgliR]

How things are now isn't how they were last year considering this is a year old thread.