PA-C to DO bridge?

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FutureDoc4

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Hey Everyone,

I am a guest in this forum, so I apologize if you have all already seen this. I was curious if currents students did and had thoughts or information?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=731110

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Hey Everyone,

I am a guest in this forum, so I apologize if you have all already seen this. I was curious if currents students did and had thoughts or information?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=731110

2 years of didactic and 1 year rotations... I mean I assume after that you still have to do residency. All you're doing is cutting out one year of medical school rotations. You might as well just do medical school the traditional way.

I also wonder how residency programs are going to feel about PA's that took this route...
 
Hey Everyone,

I am a guest in this forum, so I apologize if you have all already seen this. I was curious if currents students did and had thoughts or information?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=731110

Ugh. I don't know. On one hand, it's still a lot of schooling and will probably be fine, on the other hand, it still feels like caving into the will of mid-levels wanting to be physicians. Does anyone know what school? I'll reserve full judgment until I know more.
 
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I am hoping that the D.O. student's won't/don't start a flame war about this. I am noticing some rumbles on the board already in the D.O. student realm.

To the D.O. students that read this- I am doing D.O. school the traditional way(MCAT and good GPA) and I am a ER PA now. I hold no qualms about my colleagues going back to school to get the D.O. degree. Can you tell me why should you? They will be forced to go through the first two years of medical school which has the highest attrition rates as well as taking the COMLEX like us. I think that these provide safeguards on many levels personally.
 
Ugh. I don't know. On one hand, it's still a lot of schooling and will probably be fine, on the other hand, it still feels like caving into the will of mid-levels wanting to be physicians. Does anyone know what school? I'll reserve full judgment until I know more.

all the basic sciences are intact.
this isn't much of a shortcut in all honesty. you still need all the same prereqs, a qualifying score on the mcat and all the hardest parts of medschool remain in place.the pa's will only get credit for a few clinical rotations that they have already completed in primary care.
I can tell you that when I was a pa student I had to meet the same expectations on clinical rotations as the medstudents on rotation with me in all respects(rounding, call, 100+ hr weeks in surgery, etc)
 
all the basic sciences are intact.
this isn't much of a shortcut in all honesty. you still need all the same prereqs, a qualifying score on the mcat and all the hardest parts of medschool remain in place.the pa's will only get credit for a few clinical rotations that they have already completed in primary care.
I can tell you that when I was a pa student I had to meet the same expectations on clinical rotations as the medstudents on rotation with me in all respects(rounding, call, 100+ hr weeks in surgery, etc)

Listen, I really don't want to be disrespectful or rude, at all. If I made you feel that way, I apologize. I've worked with some PAs (in EM as well), and they were great.

However, my attitude toward the situation just springs from the current climate of blending the worlds between physicians and mid-levels. I'm not trying to lump PA's in with NPs, DCs (I know chiros aren't mid-levels, just trying to make a point), etc, but it seems like every time I log onto this damn site, there is a new thread about DNPs creating autonomous residencies in dermatology, DCs wanting to practice primary care, bridge programs, people wearing white coats and calling themselves "Dr" when they are not a physician in a clinical setting, etc, etc, etc.

I know this really isn't a big deal, and most of these PAs will probably do quite well in the program, but it's just frustrating to continually hear about all these alternate routes to becoming a doctor. It used to be ... "go to med school." And now its, get a DNP and lobby, or get a PA, work for a few years, then find a bridge program, or do a remotely related program, and hope primary care falls in your lap in a few years.

It's just getting old.

I hope I didn't offend you. Like I said, I'm sure the program will be fine (though I hope it doesn't further confuse people about DOs), the blurring of lines is just getting a little much for me personally.
 
I personally don't have a problem with it. From what I have read they have to have the pre-reqs, MCAT, and they have to do residency just like us. Basically all it is shaving a year off of clinical rotations. The one thing I would be cautious about as a student of a program like this is not doing a core rotation that the student does not have previous clinical experience in. I know LECOM in Erie has a 3 year track for students that are going into primary care so it's not like medical schools aren't offering a 3 year track. As long as the students of the program would be in the same class as the other medical students and be held to the same standard for obtaining the DO as the medical students not in the program I don't see it being a big deal.
 
Listen, I really don't want to be disrespectful or rude, at all. If I made you feel that way, I apologize. I've worked with some PAs (in EM as well), and they were great.

no offense taken. were I in your shoes I would probably feel the same way.
I will look at the program info when it comes out in official form but I think it's probably too late for me to take advantage of this. I have too many family commitments to make this work for me but I'm sure it will be a great option for others.
 
I still don't know how popular this will be though. When it comes down to it there are a few reasons why NPs and PAs didn't go to medical school.

1. They don't want to take on so much debt.

This will still require them to take on the debt of 3 years of medical school plus whatever they had from previous schooling.

2. They don't want to spend more time in school becoming a physician.

They will still have to spend an extra 7 years to become a physician plus whatever schooling they took previously.

3. They don't have the grades or the MCAT score.

With this program they will still have to compete with other competitive applicants with the GPA and MCAT.

What is sad is that with the passage of the new health care bill NPs and PAs get the same reimbursement as family docs do, even though in most states the doc has to sign off on everything. NPs and PAs also are reimbursed the same under medicare as OBGYNS are, and that has been in effect for a couple of years now. So as of today most NPs and PAs are being paid the same as the doc for doing the same job even though the doc is the one that has to double check everything and is normally the one liable for any mistakes the NP or PA makes. I don't know why a NP or a PA would want to undergo 7 more years of schooling and take on the debt if they are going to be doing the same job and getting paid the same as they are now. Only makes since if they want to go into surgery or another field that a NP or PA isn't allowed to do in whatever state they practice in.
 
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It would also probably end, for at least a few years, the whole practice of NPs and PAs trying to gain the same pay and responsibility as physicians even though they did not go to medical school. I still don't know how popular this will be though. When it comes down to it there are a few reasons why NPs and PAs didn't go to medical school.

1. They don't want to take on so much debt.

This will still require them to take on the debt of 3 years of medical school plus whatever they had from previous schooling.

Very valid points.
 
I wonder how this will affect residency application. You will be applying to residency with basically no clinical rotation grades (which are a huge factor in determining who gets interviewed and who gets ranked where on the rank list). Your LORs will basically come from your previous employers and/or non-clinical basic science professors. If you want to switch fields, you're basically screwed. Will you also be doing your SubI (or AI) since these are mainly 4th year rotations (that I doubt any PA students do).

And will you be taking time off rotations to go to interviews (during your core rotations)?

I'm sure the background experience as a PA is great asset - but if the PA wants to switch field (let's say EM PA wanting to do a general surgery residency or pediatrics, or ENT), the bridge program essentially locks them out

P.S. I'm not sure ERAS will accept transcripts that does not originate from your current medical school (so you might not be able to use your PA school's clinical rotation grades)
 
This is through LECOM and they already have a 2 year didactic + 1 clinical in place for undergrads interested in primary care. I don't think this is any different other than the student being a graduate degree holder.
 
I think what it comes down to is that Doctors are becoming less and less important in providing care. I think that NPs/PAs are gaining strength and can provide better care than some MD/DO. I think that Medical School is too long and I think that too much knowledge causes Doctors to not think practically.
 
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I think what it comes down to is that Doctors are becoming less and less important in providing care. I think that NPs/PAs are gaining strength and can provide better care than some MD/DO. I think that Medical School is too long and I think that too much knowledge causes Doctors to not think practically.

:thumbdown:
 
I think what it comes down to is that Doctors are becoming less and less important in providing care. I think that NPs/PAs are gaining strength and can provide better care than some MD/DO. I think that Medical School is too long and I think that too much knowledge causes Doctors to not think practically.

Spoken like a true EMT. Ignorance in true form. Please leave and come back when you have a clue about what you're ranting about.
 
folks...catch the subtlety and sarcasm...superemt is obviously a troll. he joined today. he is some premed or medstudent trying to make light of a serious issue because he doesn't agree with it.
 
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SuperEMT isn't joking. He posted bullsh on the PA forum about how he hopes they create a EMT-RN bridge and he thinks he has the same education and superior experience than RNs. I am sure his experience of spending 90% of his day sitting in a gas station parking lot waiting for something to happen definitely makes him more experienced than the RNs that work along side docs doing more than just stabilizing and driving patients to the hospital.

Really I can't wait till I get to med school and take my sit in a parking lot all day class and gain all of that medical experience. Who is crazy enough to act like the more training and education somebody has the worst they will be at it. Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Not to belittle EMTs at all it's just that you need to be realistic about things and can't act like just because you are in some area of medicine you know just as much as everybody else in the medical field. I graduated with a BS in Biology but I don't think I know just as much as someone who graduated with a PHD in Biology that would be ridiculous.
 
I think what it comes down to is that Doctors are becoming less and less important in providing care. I think that NPs/PAs are gaining strength and can provide better care than some MD/DO. I think that Medical School is too long and I think that too much knowledge causes Doctors to not think practically.

Trolling fail:thumbdown:
 
This program is definately concerning in a few ways:

1. Are these spots for PA's going to be carved out or are PA applicants going to have to compete against traditional candidates. If so, how will the pre-reqs compare when the school is allowing PA classes to be counted which I would argue are not on the same level as the higher level science classes at big universities.

2. By fast tracking PA's through med school by one year the assumption being made is that the clinical knowledge gained as a PA translates into the knowledge needed clincally by a medical student. While this may be the case in some PA situations I don't think this is universally true. Further, if clinical rotations are only 1 year long how does the student acutally finish all of their core rotations (which usually take a year), apply for residency, interview and take COMLEX II/USMLE II without seriously short changing the process?

Maybe this is similar to the MD in 3/DO in 3 programs that are popping up now. Their choices of specialties may be limited to primary care.
 
1. Are these spots for pa's going to be carved out or are pa applicants going to have to compete against traditional candidates. If so, how will the pre-reqs compare when the school is allowing pa classes to be counted which i would argue are not on the same level as the higher level science classes at big universities.

the pa spots are set aside. They don't compete against non-pa's. However if 1000 applicants apply for 12 spots( not an unreasonable assumption) we are talking around a 1.25% acceptance rate. Those guys won't be slackers.
Pa classes don't count as prereqs. Pa's will need traditional prereqs from regular universities(chem/bio/etc) just like they did to get into pa school.
 
Maybe this is similar to the MD in 3/DO in 3 programs that are popping up now. Their choices of specialties may be limited to primary care.
nope, they will try to balance the class so 50% are interested in primary care but you are not limited in terms of residency. I would imagine that most of the early grads will only match to DO residencies until they prove they are as good as traditional grads.
 
In response to trolling comments, I am not trolling, I was just trying to support the PA/DO bridge, in response to opposition from pre-med,medical students, residents. I just feel that NPs/PAs are more likely to combat physician shortages. I believe that NPs/PAs are at the forefront of making medical care more accessible to these areas of doctor shortages. Experience is what saves lives, not some title on someone's white coat.
 
In response to trolling comments, I am not trolling, I was just trying to support the PA/DO bridge, in response to opposition from pre-med,medical students, residents. I just feel that NPs/PAs are more likely to combat physician shortages. I believe that NPs/PAs are at the forefront of making medical care more accessible to these areas of doctor shortages. Experience is what saves lives, not some title on someone's white coat.

Doesn't the title on their white coat reflect a greater depth of training? No offense to NP/PA's, their knowledge and skills are useful in healthcare. However, you're kind of arguing against yourself buddy.
 
nope, they will try to balance the class so 50% are interested in primary care but you are not limited in terms of residency. I would imagine that most of the early grads will only match to DO residencies until they prove they are as good as traditional grads.

I don't particularly care for your portrayal of D.O. residencies as second class work in your above comment.....So, what, now all people in D.O. residencies aren't as good as 'traditional grads'?....Based on your moniker, I'm assuming you don't have a terminal M.D./D.O. degree yet (I don't know and don't care to take the time to learn your history).....

As a suggestion, before you start castigating D.O. programs, why don't you go through one....or are you another 'I wanna be a doctor but don't wanna (or can't) go through med school and residency' type?
 
In response to trolling comments, I am not trolling, I was just trying to support the PA/DO bridge, in response to opposition from pre-med,medical students, residents. I just feel that NPs/PAs are more likely to combat physician shortages. I believe that NPs/PAs are at the forefront of making medical care more accessible to these areas of doctor shortages. Experience is what saves lives, not some title on someone's white coat.

Right on----I mean, the NP that prescribed a 325mg ASA QD for an elderly friend of mine because 'my parents take one and it helps them' is really pushing medical care accessability in the direction we want it to go.....

If you want to be a doctor, go through medical school.....you don't know what you don't know.....
 
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In response to trolling comments, I am not trolling, I was just trying to support the PA/DO bridge, in response to opposition from pre-med,medical students, residents. I just feel that NPs/PAs are more likely to combat physician shortages. I believe that NPs/PAs are at the forefront of making medical care more accessible to these areas of doctor shortages. Experience is what saves lives, not some title on someone's white coat.

When you say NPs/PAs are at the forefront of making medical care more accessible to those in areas of doctor shortages, I assume you are referring to primary care physician shortages. NPs and PAs are not the answer to physician shortages, physicians are. That is why it is called a physician shortage.

Here is an interesting thread that is posted in the Family Medicine forum regarding, among other things, NPs and PAs being the answer to primary care physician shortages.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=666368
 
I wish there was a link to the program's official website to get some information from the source, I have been looking and can't find anything. I don't know why they are setting spots aside that only PAs and NPs can apply for. Why not let them compete with the rest of the applicants and have their acceptance based upon their experience, grades, MCAT, interview, and extracurricular activities.

When they go through the normal matriculation process and are accepted then they can apply for the fast track program and be accepted to the PA/NP program that allows them to skip clinical rotations that they have previous experience in. Seems like there's only one reasons why the school would not have them compete against the other applicants.

1. The school doesn't believe that most PAs/NPs can compete with normal applicants when it comes to grades and MCAT scores.

It seems like if they have to set 12 slots aside for PA/NP applicants they believe that less than 12 PA/NP would actually be competitive enough to be accepted if compared to the same standards as other applicants.

The competition is one of the reasons why US medical schools have such a low rate of graduates not graduating. Even for DO schools the average gpa is 3.5 for matriculation and 26 for MCAT. I have many friends that didn't make it and I think they would have done well in medical school. In the US right now it's not enough to convince the medical school that you will graduate, you have to show that you will graduate with higher grades and higher board scores than the other guy/gal that also has the ability to graduate.

I would be a 100% for this program if they competed against the other applicants. The admissions committee is still going to be very impressed with their experience, but they will also have to balance it with their grades and MCAT. If the program does this I would think that at least 1% of the PA/NP would successfully compete against normal applicants which based on 1,000 applicants is still 10 PA/NP being accepted. This would also give more credibility to the program and then more DO and MD schools would be willing to experiment with it in their schools.

Don't think that DO residencies are always weaker than MD, it really depends on the program. My dad graduated with a MD from UT San Antonio and went into family practice. He told me that the hardest residency in the state was the DO family practice residency at TCOM as well as the MD residency at JPS that is run in conjunction with the DO residency.
 
I wish there was a link to the program's official website to get some information from the source, I have been looking and can't find anything. I don't know why they are setting spots aside that only PAs and NPs can apply for. Why not let them compete with the rest of the applicants and have their acceptance based upon their experience, grades, MCAT, interview, and extracurricular activities.

When they go through the normal matriculation process and are accepted then they can apply for the fast track program and be accepted to the PA/NP program that allows them to skip clinical rotations that they have previous experience in. Seems like there's only one reasons why the school would not have them compete against the other applicants.

1. The school doesn't believe that most PAs/NPs can compete with normal applicants when it comes to grades and MCAT scores.

It seems like if they have to set 12 slots aside for PA/NP applicants they believe that less than 12 PA/NP would actually be competitive enough to be accepted if compared to the same standards as other applicants.

The competition is one of the reasons why US medical schools have such a low rate of graduates not graduating. Even for DO schools the average gpa is 3.5 for matriculation and 26 for MCAT. I have many friends that didn't make it and I think they would have done well in medical school. In the US right now it's not enough to convince the medical school that you will graduate, you have to show that you will graduate with higher grades and higher board scores than the other guy/gal that also has the ability to graduate.

I would be a 100% for this program if they competed against the other applicants. The admissions committee is still going to be very impressed with their experience, but they will also have to balance it with their grades and MCAT. If the program does this I would think that at least 1% of the PA/NP would successfully compete against normal applicants which based on 1,000 applicants is still 10 PA/NP being accepted. This would also give more credibility to the program and then more DO and MD schools would be willing to experiment with it in their schools.

Don't think that DO residencies are always weaker than MD, it really depends on the program. My dad graduated with a MD from UT San Antonio and went into family practice. He told me that the hardest residency in the state was the DO family practice residency at TCOM as well as the MD residency at JPS that is run in conjunction with the DO residency.

A lot of your argument is flawed. You are basing numbers off of assumptions only which is all we have at this point. I can only assume that the reason they used the number 12 is because of the following reasons:
1.)AOA COCA decided this was a good number
2.)The program wants to use this number to be small at the beginning due to this being a brand new program. I don't think you would want to open up the program full throttle in its infancy....

Also what would happen if a good deal of these applicants were higher in GPA/MCAT than the usual premed. guy? Would you complain that PA's were taking the spots from deserving students and getting out after a little less than 3 years? I don't think that EMEDPA was being insulting just stating the obvious-A good number of D.O.'s go to M.D. residencies.

Take Care.

PS-I am one those 1%( that could have went either M.D. or D.O.) that is starting medical school doing it the way you suggest. I have no qualms about my colleagues doing this, so why should you? Sorry if typos present been on call.
 
I don't see a problem with this. They are still basically doing medical school, and it's not like that fourth year of rotations is being skipped on anyways -- they did it in PA school.

Not to mention, MS4 year is pretty worthless anyways.

I hope there is more to this than a cheap way to put more DOs out there.
 
I don't particularly care for your portrayal of D.O. residencies as second class work in your above comment.....So, what, now all people in D.O. residencies aren't as good as 'traditional grads'?....Based on your moniker, I'm assuming you don't have a terminal M.D./D.O. degree yet (I don't know and don't care to take the time to learn your history).....

As a suggestion, before you start castigating D.O. programs, why don't you go through one....or are you another 'I wanna be a doctor but don't wanna (or can't) go through med school and residency' type?

Umm, wouldn't the PA to DO graduate as a DO? Do DO's have as much success obtaining MD residences as MD's? I don't think it was kicking DO between the legs as much as it was saying there may not be much prestige to the PA->DO (to begin with), making it even harder for the DO to land MD residency.

Sounds like somebody has a complex...
 
Makati2008- Also what would happen if a good deal of these applicants were higher in GPA/MCAT than the usual premed. guy? Would you complain that PA's were taking the spots from deserving students and getting out after a little less than 3 years? I don't think that EMEDPA was being insulting just stating the obvious-A good number of D.O.'s go to M.D. residencies.

I think I made myself clear that I believe if they allowed PAs to compete against the rest of the applicants then they would have more than 12 PAs that would be accepted. As I have said numerous times I am a fan of the program, I was only trying to reason why LECOM would have the PAs only compete with other PAs. My opinion, as being consistent with my reasoning so far, is that I would not complain that PAs were taking the spots of deserving students if more than 12 were accepted. My reasoning is that the PAs would be more deserving than the students they were accepted over because they out competed these students head to head.

My reasoning is that if PAs are only competing with other PAs then this is not fair. There are two different reasons that this potentially would not be fair.

1. The PAs are more competitive than many pre-med applicants and there will be PAs that aren't accepted because they are the 13th or 14th best PA applicant while they are still better than a pre-med that was accepted.

or

2. The PAs are not as competitive than many pre-med applicants and the 12th best PA accepted is not as good of a candidate as many of the pre-med applicants that were not accepted.

As I have said before I think the first option would probably be the one that would be true. Personally I don't care about PAs taking spots away from pre-med students, I care about the most qualified person receive the opportunity to become a physician.

As far as the number of DOs going to MD residencies, while it is true that there is a higher percentage of DOs that attend MD residencies this also correlates with there being much more MD residencies than DO residencies. I have not taken any of emedpa's comments as insulting, I just stated that it is a generalization that MD residencies are more prestigious and rigorous than DO residencies. For many residencies this is the case, but there are also many DO residencies that are better than the MD residencies in the area. What it comes down to is once you finish whatever residency you go to you are a licensed physician that is able to practice whatever area you are specialized in. It is a minority of patients that know what residencies are the best and which aren't, most patients just want to know how experienced you are in your field.

P.S. Not all DOs and MDs want to wage war against PAs to keep them from becoming physicians. My argument being flawed is your opinion, but my numbers are not. This has been the assumption we have been working with on this forum for many days now and that is why I used these numbers and the percentages based upon 1,000 applicants, the same numbers emedpa, to hypothesize the motives behind LECOMs structuring the program the way it has. My first statement obviously stated that I wish there were official numbers from LECOM so that we could more accurately discuss the issue, but since there aren't I used the same numbers we have been using.
 
I agree with you again on many aspects. We will not agree on all issues and I don't scour the board to fight whether its PA vs NP or NP/PA vs MD/DO.

Good luck in medical school this fall and I am in the same boat as you so I hope you can wish me the same.

Last note-NP's are not allowed into this program. I talked to the creator of this program Monday of this week and this is due to NP programs not following the medical model. He said that this would be a possibility later but as of right now its a no go.

Again I apologize if there are any types still on call for the next few hours.:sleep:
 
I agree with you again on many aspects. We will not agree on all issues and I don't scour the board to fight whether its PA vs NP or NP/PA vs MD/DO.

Good luck in medical school this fall and I am in the same boat as you so I hope you can wish me the same.

Last note-NP's are not allowed into this program. I talked to the creator of this program Monday of this week and this is due to NP programs not following the medical model. He said that this would be a possibility later but as of right now its a no go.

Again I apologize if there are any types still on call for the next few hours.:sleep:

I really hope not. However I feelings this will happen due to the fact that lecom knows they will make money from this.
 
I really hope not. However I feelings this will happen due to the fact that lecom knows they will make money from this.

I don't think they will have a problem filling the spots with pa's. there are plenty who are interestred and qualified.

to the prior poster who thought I was knocking DO residencies: I wasn't. I have all the respect in the world for DO's. the fact of the matter is that for most DO's in most specialties it is easier for them to match to a DO residency than an MD residency. no offense intended.
 
I don't think they will have a problem filling the spots with pa's. there are plenty who are interestred and qualified.

to the prior poster who thought I was knocking DO residencies: I wasn't. I have all the respect in the world for DO's. the fact of the matter is that for most DO's in most specialties it is easier for them to match to a DO residency than an MD residency. no offense intended.

I don't see what the problem is, it's the truth. All of the people who matched into competitive specialties at my school matched into DO residencies. The ones who matched allo were in things like IM, FM, Psych, etc.

In the end, though, who the hell cares. A radiologist from a DO residency is still a radiologist.
 
Umm, wouldn't the PA to DO graduate as a DO? Do DO's have as much success obtaining MD residences as MD's? I don't think it was kicking DO between the legs as much as it was saying there may not be much prestige to the PA->DO (to begin with), making it even harder for the DO to land MD residency.

Sounds like somebody has a complex...

Yeah, I can see how you would think 'complex'.....

Go with me here ---

I'm just a little tired of what I'm seeing on more than one website - which is the 'well, if you can't get into an allo school, go D.O.' with the mindset
that it's going to be an easy cruise and unless you really have trouble walking and chewing gum on a relatively flat surface, you should be fine. Same thing with D.O. residencies.....

I personally don't feel that my education was substandard at all. Most of my class took the USMLE and passed on first attempt, a good percentage with scores high enough to hit allo anesthesiology, ortho and radiology residencies.....People from our school are breaking into very competitive residency programs previously 'closed' to D.O.'s.....

So it kinda hit me wrong with the implication that the PA-to-DO bridge types shouldn't have a problem hitting D.O. residencies.

I'm not real sure how I feel about the abbreviated bridge. I know several PA's who went through the whole med school program, did quite well, and are now attendings in competitive fields. If they can do, why should the program be shortened now? I still say - if you want to be a doctor, go to med school like everyone else.....
 
Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine announces the approval of an accelerated three-year medical school curriculum for Certified Physician Assistants to obtain a Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine degree. On May 22nd, 2010 The American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation approved the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP). The pathway was designed and will be directed by Mark Kauffman DO, PA, MS Med Ed as a response to predicted physician shortages. Physician Assistants are healthcare professionals who work under the scope of their supervising physicians. They undergo rigorous didactic medical curriculum as well as at least one year of clinical rotations to obtain the entry level masters degree for the profession. Debate suggesting a change in the entry-level to that of a doctorate degree resulted in the PA Clinical Doctorate Summit of March 2009. The Summit conducted the 2009 Physician Assistant Doctoral Summit Survey. The results of which recognized that many physician assistants wish to become physicians citing the desire to practice independently, the need for professional growth and development, the need for increased medical knowledge and the ability to do more for their patients as the most common reasons to do so. Currently only 4% of PAs return to medical school noting cost and time away from clinical practice as major barriers.
In 2008, 37% of PAs choose to work in primary care. Growth in demand for primary care physicians will increase by more than 15 percent over the next decade. Dr. Kauffman and LECOM have identified PAs as excellent candidates for medical school as they have demonstrated the ability to successfully complete demanding curriculum, have practiced clinically, and have expressed the desire to increase their medical knowledge. By accelerating the medical school curriculum to 3 instead of 4 years, LECOM will reduce the cost and time away from clinical practice for PAs within this pathway by one quarter. Students will complete the first year of didactic instruction followed by 8 weeks of primary care clinical clerkships. They would then return to the second year of didactic instruction followed by 48 weeks of clinical clerkship training. Applicants to the program will be required to have obtained a minimum of 22 on the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT). The first students would be enrolled in the fall of 2011.

In response to some of the issues posted to the forum

1) MCAT: Medical education literature notes that the MCAT is predictor for the ability to obtain core knowledge in Basic Sciences and perform well on standardized testing. It fails to recognize other areas that make good physicians like empathy and the desire to serve. Unfortunately, our accrediting body does not allow a school to pick out subsets of applicants. LECOM requires a minimum MCAT of 22, the level below which students without prior medical training struggle with the medical boards. PAs that have gone through LECOM already have scored lower on the MCAT as we do not take traditional pre-medical sciences often picking up physics, organic and inorganic chem just to meet the med school requirements and take the MCAT. However, despite the lower MCAT, their performance on the DO COMLEX Boards is superior as is there graduating class rank. Again, the rule applies that what you require of one applicant must be required of all, so even considering lower MCAT scores for APAP is not possible. I am not aware of any US medical school that does not require MCAT. If anyone knows of a school that doesn’t, please let me know. I would like to see how they do on their Boards. Another poster recommended taking a MCAT prep course. Good idea.

2) Stepping Stone: PA’s are an extremely valuable asset to medicine. However, as noted in the press release, once experiencing medicine, some have strong desires to become physicians. The 2009 Summit Survey noted the following four reasons as the most common: Ability to practice independently, Need for professional growth and development, Need for increased medical knowledge and Ability to do more for patients. The program is in no way designed to take practitioners away from one field into another. For those who question why PAs should support those who choose to leave the profession, the answer is; which physicians will be the best supporters of the PA profession, those who are PAs themselves.

3) Barriers to returning to med school include the financial burden and time away from practice. This program is 138 weeks of training and will cut the total cost of medical school by ¼.

4) Twelve slots: When applying for new programs, approval is less hampered if smaller numbers are sought. Though barred from the debate process during our application, apparently it was lengthy. Anytime a new program is developed, assurance of its success must be made. With demonstration of success, advancements can be made. As noted by many forum posters, it is a start and no longer an urban myth.

5) Pre-requisites: Schools do have the liberty to accept some courses in lieu of others. Many applicants will take all of the standard physics, organic and inorganic chem just for the MCAT but you shouldn’t hold your application if you have not had all of these courses. Each application will be assessed individually and other completed courses will be considered and approved as appropriate.

6) Clinical experience: only completion of your PA curriculum and certification is required meaning you have had at least 1 year of clinical experience. You could go directly from PA school to LECOM.

7) Applications for the program are through AACOMAS. If planning to apply, put it your application early and notate your PA training.
 
Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine announces the approval of an accelerated three-year medical school curriculum for Certified Physician Assistants to obtain a Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine degree. On May 22nd, 2010 The American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation approved the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP). The pathway was designed and will be directed by Mark Kauffman DO, PA, MS Med Ed as a response to predicted physician shortages. Physician Assistants are healthcare professionals who work under the scope of their supervising physicians. They undergo rigorous didactic medical curriculum as well as at least one year of clinical rotations to obtain the entry level masters degree for the profession. Debate suggesting a change in the entry-level to that of a doctorate degree resulted in the PA Clinical Doctorate Summit of March 2009. The Summit conducted the 2009 Physician Assistant Doctoral Summit Survey. The results of which recognized that many physician assistants wish to become physicians citing the desire to practice independently, the need for professional growth and development, the need for increased medical knowledge and the ability to do more for their patients as the most common reasons to do so. Currently only 4% of PAs return to medical school noting cost and time away from clinical practice as major barriers.
In 2008, 37% of PAs choose to work in primary care. Growth in demand for primary care physicians will increase by more than 15 percent over the next decade. Dr. Kauffman and LECOM have identified PAs as excellent candidates for medical school as they have demonstrated the ability to successfully complete demanding curriculum, have practiced clinically, and have expressed the desire to increase their medical knowledge. By accelerating the medical school curriculum to 3 instead of 4 years, LECOM will reduce the cost and time away from clinical practice for PAs within this pathway by one quarter. Students will complete the first year of didactic instruction followed by 8 weeks of primary care clinical clerkships. They would then return to the second year of didactic instruction followed by 48 weeks of clinical clerkship training. Applicants to the program will be required to have obtained a minimum of 22 on the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT). The first students would be enrolled in the fall of 2011.

In response to some of the issues posted to the forum

1) MCAT: Medical education literature notes that the MCAT is predictor for the ability to obtain core knowledge in Basic Sciences and perform well on standardized testing. It fails to recognize other areas that make good physicians like empathy and the desire to serve. Unfortunately, our accrediting body does not allow a school to pick out subsets of applicants. LECOM requires a minimum MCAT of 22, the level below which students without prior medical training struggle with the medical boards. PAs that have gone through LECOM already have scored lower on the MCAT as we do not take traditional pre-medical sciences often picking up physics, organic and inorganic chem just to meet the med school requirements and take the MCAT. However, despite the lower MCAT, their performance on the DO COMLEX Boards is superior as is there graduating class rank. Again, the rule applies that what you require of one applicant must be required of all, so even considering lower MCAT scores for APAP is not possible. I am not aware of any US medical school that does not require MCAT. If anyone knows of a school that doesn’t, please let me know. I would like to see how they do on their Boards. Another poster recommended taking a MCAT prep course. Good idea.

2) Stepping Stone: PA’s are an extremely valuable asset to medicine. However, as noted in the press release, once experiencing medicine, some have strong desires to become physicians. The 2009 Summit Survey noted the following four reasons as the most common: Ability to practice independently, Need for professional growth and development, Need for increased medical knowledge and Ability to do more for patients. The program is in no way designed to take practitioners away from one field into another. For those who question why PAs should support those who choose to leave the profession, the answer is; which physicians will be the best supporters of the PA profession, those who are PAs themselves.

3) Barriers to returning to med school include the financial burden and time away from practice. This program is 138 weeks of training and will cut the total cost of medical school by ¼.

4) Twelve slots: When applying for new programs, approval is less hampered if smaller numbers are sought. Though barred from the debate process during our application, apparently it was lengthy. Anytime a new program is developed, assurance of its success must be made. With demonstration of success, advancements can be made. As noted by many forum posters, it is a start and no longer an urban myth.

5) Pre-requisites: Schools do have the liberty to accept some courses in lieu of others. Many applicants will take all of the standard physics, organic and inorganic chem just for the MCAT but you shouldn’t hold your application if you have not had all of these courses. Each application will be assessed individually and other completed courses will be considered and approved as appropriate.

6) Clinical experience: only completion of your PA curriculum and certification is required meaning you have had at least 1 year of clinical experience. You could go directly from PA school to LECOM.

7) Applications for the program are through AACOMAS. If planning to apply, put it your application early and notate your PA training.


a 22 on the MCAT!?! I could take the test drunk and get that. I dont know why Lecom has all these shortcut programs. If anything the depth of medical knowledge is getting larger and requiring more school.

I have no doubts that some PAs can be excellent physicians we have two in my class and they are great students, but if people want to do it they should just do it like everyone else.
 
A 22 on the MCAT??? Honestly, why bother??? Who is that fooling? Frankly, I think this will hurt the school's rep, and probably DOs rep in general.
 
A 22 on the MCAT??? Honestly, why bother??? Who is that fooling? Frankly, I think this will hurt the school's rep, and probably DOs rep in general.

agreed i was ok with the program before, but now its seeming like a backdoor.

do we allow people with postbacs to skip classes? no. These shortcut programs need to stop.

It doesn't say they will get in with a 22, only that they need to at least have it to be considered. There are plenty of schools that accept students with a 22 MCAT. PCOM and Drexel as per their admissions staff just to name a couple.

unless you save one of the admission committees lives, you are not getting in with a 22. At least not the normal way.
 
agreed i was ok with the program before, but now its seeming like a backdoor.

do we allow people with postbacs to skip classes? no. These shortcut programs need to stop.



unless you save one of the admission committees lives, you are not getting in with a 22. At least not the normal way.

There are at least two people in my class with MCAT around 22. One has multiple attempts on every part of the board and is still without a passing score on part 2. This person also has multiple rotation failures. This person did not graduate with my class.

The other person managed to get through boards after repeating second year but is now several months behind in rotations and did not receive the diploma at graduation.

Having said that, they DO admit people with ****ty MCAT scores but as the two people above demonstrate, they usually don't do very well. Both of the students were non-traditional people with previous careers. I suspect if they were just normal premeds coming straight out of college they would not have been given the time of day.
 
I can tell you that when I was a pa student I had to meet the same expectations on clinical rotations as the medstudents on rotation with me in all respects(rounding, call, 100+ hr weeks in surgery, etc)
Sounds like you had some solid training, but this definitely isn't universal. The PA who was rotating with my team on Internal Medicine never had to take call and never even did an H&P. It wasn't that the PA was lazy or didn't want to help the team, mind you - they just weren't held to the same expectations.
 
a 22 on the MCAT!?! I could take the test drunk and get that. I dont know why Lecom has all these shortcut programs.
The same reason that we've seen so many dubious "branch campuses" for DO schools spring up like weeds: MONEY. There are tons of people desperate to get into med school who will happily take on enormous debt for the privilege of paying enormous tuition, and these schools are doing all they can to make a grab for the pot of gold.
I think a great example of the direction that the medical profession is going in is the way that the law profession has gone. The law market is saturated because of how ridiculously quickly new law schools have opened over the last few years.
Now we're on the verge of the same problem in medicine. Too many schools are churning out too many doctors without regard for quality or if there are enough residencies available because all these schools are trying to make a quick grab for cash while they can.
 
^^ law is a perfect example of what medicine (especially DOs) shouldn't do.

Like others said, a 22 isn't guaranteed admission, but to me ... this is starting to feel like a school is simply trying to capitalize on the mid-level push to become physicians. Makes me wonder if any health science schools that are associated with DO schools will ever open DNP programs.
 
The same reason that we've seen so many dubious "branch campuses" for DO schools spring up like weeds: MONEY. There are tons of people desperate to get into med school who will happily take on enormous debt for the privilege of paying enormous tuition, and these schools are doing all they can to make a grab for the pot of gold.
I think a great example of the direction that the medical profession is going in is the way that the law profession has gone. The law market is saturated because of how ridiculously quickly new law schools have opened over the last few years.
Now we're on the verge of the same problem in medicine. Too many schools are churning out too many doctors without regard for quality or if there are enough residencies available because all these schools are trying to make a quick grab for cash while they can.

very true. I guess the better question is why is COCA and the AOA on bomard with these things...I guessing the same reason?

The last thing the DO profession should do is become a bunch of diploma mills churning out poorly trained physicians. After all the strides the profession has made it would be a shame to see that undone for a couple bucks.

We should really work on bringing DO residencies up to par and the expanding those before making all these new schools.
 
There are at least two people in my class with MCAT around 22. One has multiple attempts on every part of the board and is still without a passing score on part 2. This person also has multiple rotation failures. This person did not graduate with my class.

The other person managed to get through boards after repeating second year but is now several months behind in rotations and did not receive the diploma at graduation.

Having said that, they DO admit people with ****ty MCAT scores but as the two people above demonstrate, they usually don't do very well. Both of the students were non-traditional people with previous careers. I suspect if they were just normal premeds coming straight out of college they would not have been given the time of day.


I think the bolded would be the worst part out of those situations... They probably left an impression of the school on the hospital or clinic they were in.
 
I know a guy who got an 18 mcat then graduated top of his medschool class, aced his boards( top 5%), got his residency of choice, became chief resident and is a rocking em attending.....
 
I know a guy who got an 18 mcat then graduated top of his medschool class, aced his boards( top 5%), got his residency of choice, became chief resident and is a rocking em attending.....


Emedpa, you usually have reasonable arguments, but you have to admit, your example is by far the exception not the rule.

I am NO fan of the MCAT (I think it is often just another useless hurdle), but it is the best thing we have.

The avg MCAT at Osteopathic medical schools is climbing (I think its between 26-29 (along with the allopathic schools 30-35).

I definitely have seen that students (both allopathic and osteopathic) coming from non-traditional backgrounds are given a little slack in terms of the MCAT (and I think rightly so- if its been a while since physics, its understandable)

However, the avg, 50% of those taking the test, is 8/15 per a section (therefore assuming an avg of 8 per a section, 24 total). I do not think that asking that a medical school applicant be exactly average is asking to much.

And although you give an example of one person who happened to be the exception of the rule, doesn't mean that is the case 99/100 other times that person with an 18 would fail miserable or struggle with Step 1-3 and licensing exams
 
I know a guy who got an 18 mcat then graduated top of his medschool class, aced his boards( top 5%), got his residency of choice, became chief resident and is a rocking em attending.....

I know a guy who, while in college, created the chemical formula for chem-dry (the carpet cleaner) so he patented it, dropped out, made the company, and has more money than anyone I've met in real life (for real).

Does this mean we should all screw it and drop out now???

A N E C D O T A L ...
 
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