Pain Society with Most Anesthesiologists

[ThinkFast007]

out of curiosity....if one wanted to join a pain society (am academy of pain, etc etc...since there's like 5 of them)....

which one of them have the largest number of practicing Anesthesiologists as opposed to PMnR, etc.?

Thanks

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[paz5559]

out of curiosity....if one wanted to join a pain society (am academy of pain, etc etc...since there's like 5 of them)....

which one of them have the largest number of practicing Anesthesiologists as opposed to PMnR, etc.?

Thanks

Why would that matter? Wouldn't you want the most scientifically honest society? Afterall, ours is a multidiciplinary field - wouldn't you hate it if you were excluded from NASS because they were predominantly surgeons?

 

[ThinkFast007]

i think its important to be a part of a organization that is trained in field that is most closely related to your own. This way, ppl are 'coming' in from the same reference point and will be better able to help focus in on what areas need improvement etc.

So any ideas anyone? I saw somethign called the am acad of interventional pain or something. seems like all the guys on the exec board were anesthesiologists. what do you all think?

 

[paz5559]

i think its important to be a part of a organization that is trained in field that is most closely related to your own. This way, ppl are 'coming' in from the same reference point and will be better able to help focus in on what areas need improvement etc.

So any ideas anyone? I saw somethign called the am acad of interventional pain or something. seems like all the guys on the exec board were anesthesiologists. what do you all think?

You are talking about ASIPP, and should also look into ASRA, which is also predominatly anesthesiolgists.

Good luck with your underlying concept - from my perspective, I would prefer to focus on the organizaton that best addresses the field you are entering into, rather than focusing on what the leadership did in residency 20 years before.

 

[mehul_25]

I have to agree with Paz, I think it is more important to assess the ideology and goals of an organization than to join one with a predominance of those whose distant training is similar. However, if you want a organization with mostly Anesthesiologists most of the mainstream organizations(ASRA, ASIPP, even ISIS) are predominantly that way.

 

[Aether2000]

I also agree with Paz...the current goal of the organization is the most important. That being said, most of us practicing pain doctors are members of multiple organizations. We have only 4000-5000 physicians in the US practicing pain medicine and there are organizations that have overlap with one another. SPPM, ISIS, ASIPP, PASSOR, ASRA all do workshops using cadavers for training. ISIS is the pure science and standards organization. ASIPP is highly political. Both are necessary for the good of pain medicine. SPPM and ISIS lack a journal, but ISIS has one planned for the near future. It benefits you to become involved in multiple organizations since there is no "One Ring to Rule them All" organization, even though some would like it to be so. The diversity of the differing views prevents us from becoming blinded to the inflexibility of organizations and also prevents one individual from dominating the philosophy of pain medicine. There is some room for unity in certain areas and perhaps some of the organizations will combine forces when it meets our needs. But as a warning against totalitarianism, you should watch the new "V" movie....great flick with some strong messages.

 

[ThinkFast007]

i dont get it...i saw the same thing. it's like an alphabet soup w/ close to 5 different pain organizations.

from the above post it does seem that these different organizations may have different agendas. however, isnt having 5 organizations just causing each of them to be that much more weaker. I know we dont live in an eutopia where everyone agrees...but with about 5 organizations that just seems like a LOT.

 

[Aether2000]

Yes, but other specialties have at least that many organizations. Take anesthesiology...there are many organizations representing the specialty including ASRA, ASA, ABA, SAMBA, etc, yet few would argue there should be a monolithic structure to encompass all the above. Pain medicine is a subspecialty, not a specialty, so it is in its infancy, still growing with differences in training, emphasis, and entry requirements. Although it would be nice to have a single organization represent everything in which you believe, it is unlikely that would be the case. As you progress throughout the years you will find there are valid reasons for the differences including ethics, politics, overall goals, etc. For instance, ISIS is a great organization but has little interest in creating a board exam on top of an already existant non-ABMS board exam as have some other organizations. It has no interest in marches on Washington nor in physicians unable to control the narcotic prescribing in their own practices. It is not interested in peripheral nerve blocks as is ASRA or NYSORA, nor is it interested in teaching CRNAs as is SPPM. It is a purely scientific and educational physician organization to study and advance the science behind spinal interventions. Many other organizations in pain medicine have useful goals also, that may differ or overlap or outright conflict with one another. We find common ground in certain areas and can work in those arenas together, but the cooperation is still lacking as noted by Paz, even in the areas that we should be cooperating.

 

[paz5559]

SPPM and ISIS lack a journal, but ISIS has one planned for the near future.

ISIS's "journal" is the spine section of Pain Medicine, a publication of AAPM (another organization you should consider). Drs. Bogduk and Schofferman are the co-editors, and Drs April, Lord, & Barnsley are in the masthead as well.

And now for my editorial comments:

1) any organization that advocates for any group other than MD's to be doing these procedures is no friend of our field, nor is it an organization I would support either with dues or course fees (ie. SPPM)

2) while I have actually spoken to members of the ISIS board regarding a certification exam, they do not feel they have sufficient resources to accomplish that, and feel it is a low priority item when both ABA (a member of ABMS) and AAPM (non-ABMS) already offer legitimate certification. I know of no one not associated with ASIPP who feels their certification is worth anything at present

ISIS is clearly the organization with the most respect throughout the rest of medicine, but defines its role quite narrowly. AAPM has a membership that is clearly interested in incorporating interventionalists, but its mission is clearly to represent all of pain medicine. ASIPP, while claiming to be a more global organization in terms of its nominal concern for both science and reimbursement, in fact makes grandiose claims for accomplishments that are either nowhere near as successful as they claim (ie NASPER), or merely attempt to co-opt and duplicate roles other organizations already occupy (pain physician is a pathetic excuse for a "journal', FIPP is a money making scheme, as are what they pretend their supposed 'guidelines' represent). NASS is our entre into a true multidisciplinary organization, but the hostility of surgeons towards those whom they perceive may potentially be taking bread off their tables makes acceptance an uphill fight. PASSOR no longer exists, having been re-incorporated into AAAPM&R, now that the Academy's Board of directors is made up of a majority of interventionists. APS, which would like to be the leader for all things pain, really has no interest in anything having to do with interventions, and prefers fo focus almost entirely on medical management of pain. And the North American Neuromodulation Society, while focused, is clearly too focused on stims to be anything more than a niche player.

In short, there is no organization that represents all aspects of what we do, and does it both well and exclusively. Your best bet is to sift your way through the alphabet soup of organizations, take what you can from each, get involved, and perhaps accomplish the changes that to date the aforementioned groups have not been able to do - play well with others and represent our global interests.

 

[Aether2000]

Excellent capsule summary of the pain situation Paz!
ISIS is exploring an independent journal at this time that will hopefully replace the newsletter.......more soon on that....

 

[drusso]

ThinkFast,

Before you "invest" in a professional group, I'd try out a few. I think that Algos and Paz have done an excellent job summarizing the various organizations and their missions.

From my own experience, PM&R base training, I think that it is important to "cross-train" in your exposure to pain medicine. I purposely went out and attended more anesthesia-based groups and lectures and found it very beneficial. I think that you'd have a similarly positive experience coming from an anesthesia background---others in your shoes have told me as much.

Start with AAPM, ISIS, and NASS for a more multidisciplinary point of view. Unfortunately, non-PM&R trained physicians can't join PASSOR, but you should definitely check out their spinal intervention workshops. At the last one I attended, several anesthesia-trained pain physicians were in attendance and Algos lectured.

If you want to stay "closer to home," ASRA does an excellent annual program. Overall, if you want to be serious about pain medicine be prepared to take a more "Jazz-oriented" approach to your training.

--DR

 

[Disciple]

PASSOR no longer exists, having been re-incorporated into AAAPM&R, now that the Academy's Board of directors is made up of a majority of interventionists.

So is this official? I know there has been alot of talk about this, but I could have sworn I paid some PASSOR dues recently.

Any ideas on the reasoning behind this move? Are we truly trying to reintegrate Physiatry or do our MSK/interventional leaders feel they now have enough influence to affect policy making for the entire AAPM&R.

 

[Disciple]

Unfortunately, non-PM&R trained physicians can't join PASSOR, but you should definitely check out their spinal intervention workshops. At the last one I attended, several anesthesia-trained pain physicians were in attendance and Algos lectured.

So was this the Phase II course?

I know in the next go around, the courses are being designed with resident attendance in consideration, but do you think these courses are useful at all(considering cost, etc.) to those entering pain fellowships?

 

[Doctodd]

towards those whom they perceive may potentially be taking bread off their tables makes acceptance an uphill fight.

Is it just me, or does it seem the original poster Thinkfast007 is following this very thinking? If you want to remain separated from all other pain docs who arent anesthesia, then you should consider taking your elitist ignorant attitude to another board that is only anesthesiologists. And what is PMnR anyway?

T

 

[Disciple]

If you check the Anesthesia forum, the OP is a med-student who is anti-CRNA and anti-any specialty practicing interventional pain management except Anesthesia, most notably PM&R.

 

[paz5559]

If you check the Anesthesia forum, the OP is a med-student who is anti-CRNA and anti-any specialty practicing interventional pain management except Anesthesia, most notably PM&R.

I wonder how he/she feels about interventional radiologists (Aprill, Fenton), Anatomists (Bogduk) or even Rheumatologists (Schwartzer), as well as PM&R (Windsor, Slipman, Furman, Falco, Dreyfuss, Lutz, Prather, Vad, et all) and all the advancements they have contributed to the field