Paxil

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Manicsleep

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Just curious how many of my colleagues have stopped paxil, stopped SSRIs or changed paxil to another SSRI because of the recent article about mild to moderate depression.

I haven't switched or stopped in stable patients but have noted that I am not writing new prescriptions. Well actually a nurse noticed it after we talked about the article. 0 new scripts...

Its amazing how powerful medical literature can be...that damn NY Times!

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Just curious how many of my colleagues have stopped paxil, stopped SSRIs or changed paxil to another SSRI because of the recent article about mild to moderate depression.

I haven't switched or stopped in stable patients but have noted that I am not writing new prescriptions. Well actually a nurse noticed it after we talked about the article. 0 new scripts...

Its amazing how powerful medical literature can be...that damn NY Times!
In kids, the British studies are convincing enough that I don't use it at all. In adults, the weight gain, sedation and withdrawals means that I only rarely use it.
 
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Paxil is my last choice SSRI.

It has the most amount of side effects of the SSRIs (weight gain, anticholinergic, etc), a class D pregnancy safety (other SSRIs have a C) it is the most likely to cause discontinuation syndrome and in studies SSRIs were pretty much equally efficacious across the board. (Though of course there are a few studies pointing to Lexapro, Citalopram and Zoloft as having a slightly better efficacy.)

So then, why even give it out? Well only in a few cases will I give it out: e.g. the patient wants and needs to gain weight, the person was on Paxil before, it worked and they don't want to try anything else, or other SSRIs have failed (though if IMHO at least 2 SSRIs failed even with augmentation with Buspirone, you might want to start considering an SNRI).

I have not put one patient on Paxil as a first, second or even third try medication except for patients that were on it before and insisted on it again. Even then I inform them that there are other SSRIs that are just as efficacious and with fewer side effects. If they still want the Paxil, then I'll give it out.

Thoughts?

The NYTimes article is fair IMHO.

A few years ago, there was an advance in the treatment of breast cancer. The media actually hyped it up saying that the "CURE TO CANCER" was found.

No, it was only an advance, not a cure. It would save lives but it was not a cure and only for breast cancer, not all cancer.

Yet the media for a few days kept saying the same thing over and over. Society views on cancer and if it could be cured in general, obviously, hasn't changed. Though I suspect that maybe a few people thought a cure was found at least for a few days.

IMHO the findings back those of the very well done STAR*D trial. That trial also showed that antidepressants do work, though they do not work well.
 
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Actually I've given less Luvox than Paxil.

Though it's because I've had far more patients already on Paxil that didn't want off of it.

Luvox, however, is low on my list of recommendations because it has several cautions and contraindications with commonly used medications.
 
..Luvox, however, is low on my list of recommendations because it has several cautions and contraindications with commonly used medications.
Back in residency, the local VA was using Luvox specifically with Depakote so they could lover the Depakote dose and apparently save money.
 
Why is Luvox bad? It seems like a magic bullet for so many people I have seen with super OCD.
bid dosing, drug interactions, not really better than other SSRI's for OCD, but more side-effect in the higher doses needed for the OCD.
 
bid dosing, drug interactions, not really better than other SSRI's for OCD, but more side-effect in the higher doses needed for the OCD.

what about luvox cr? also what kind of drug interactions and side effects? i wish i could pull it out right now but i am recalling an oft-quoted study praising luvox over other ssri's for ocd. another attending loved it for eating disorders. why so much luvox hate- maybe *you* guys should try washing your hands out a million times with hot water.
 
what about luvox cr?
Not spectacular. When I have tried it, patients really haven't liked it.
i wish i could pull it out right now but i am recalling an oft-quoted study praising luvox over other ssri's for ocd.
The company bothered with the OCD indication because its bid dosing was kicking it out of the market. Reality is that the others are just as good, and that the limits on OCD treatment comes from having to push the dose above normal for 3 mths before getting good OCD result on any of the SSRIs. Heck, it is hard to do with paxil also, so I don't use that for OCD, and the restlessness and almost complete libido suppression of high doses of fluoxetine also means that it typically is out for first-line OCD.
\another attending loved it for eating disorders. why so much luvox hate- maybe *you* guys should try washing your hands out a million times with hot water.
"hate"? I have no emotional attachment for or against any of these medications. But frankly, all your study write-ups, paid by companies or not, crash hard on the rocky shore of patients' "I don't like how it makes me feel."
 
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"hate"? I have no emotional attachment for or against any of these medications. But frankly, all your study write-ups, paid by companies or not, crash hard on the rocky shore of patients' "I don't like how it makes me feel."

Which really brings this thread right up against the "Reflective Practitioner" thread...down here in the swamp where "the best" medication for the patient is the one they will actually take.
 
i wish i could pull it out right now but i am recalling an oft-quoted study praising luvox over other ssri's for ocd.

I do recall seeing such a study, but darn it, I can't find it right now.

One thing I'm going to start doing is keep a binder of the very interesting studies that actually change my mind on a particular topic. When I commit it to memory, and then a few months later, can't recall the specific article, I start questioning if my memory is correct.

I do recall looking at several studies and trying to find a comparison in the efficacy of SSRIs in head to head comparisons. Pretty much all of them were the same, with very few studies showing a barely significantly higher efficacy with Escitalopram, Citalopram and Sertraline. Those studies, however, were only done in regards to depression, not anxiety.

I have seen some psychiatrists theorize that paxil may be a better medication for anxiety because it has a built in anti-histaminic component to it. So, in effect, it's like giving an SSRI and vistaril. Perhaps so, but then IMHO why not just give out an anti-histamine PRN with a cleaner SSRI with less side effects? I've had too many patients get pretty bad discontinuation syndrome and weight gain from paxil.
 
My attending that I would call the "smartest guy I know" tells me (though I can't corroborate this anywhere) that the reason why so many people used Luvox preferentially for OCD early on was for it's 3A4 inhibition as an adjunct w/ Anafranil. The p450 interaction would actual slow down the conversion of clomipramine to imipramine, and the quarternary being so much stronger of a serotonergic agent, lead to better response in OCD.

I don't know if I buy it, but it's a pretty elegant explanation.
 
Glad to see this thread. I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence regarding patients experiencing severe side effects on Paxil to the point where I felt I wouldn't prescribe it if I practiced psychiatry but it seemed to be a popular choice amongst the psychiatrists I've worked with. Feels better to know my irrational thoughts are backed by some evidence.
 
Not spectacular. When I have tried it, patients really haven't liked it.
The company bothered with the OCD indication because its bid dosing was kicking it out of the market. Reality is that the others are just as good, and that the limits on OCD treatment comes from having to push the dose above normal for 3 mths before getting good OCD result on any of the SSRIs. Heck, it is hard to do with paxil also, so I don't use that for OCD, and the restlessness and almost complete libido suppression of high doses of fluoxetine also means that it typically is out for first-line OCD.
"hate"? I have no emotional attachment for or against any of these medications. But frankly, all your study write-ups, paid by companies or not, crash hard on the rocky shore of patients' "I don't like how it makes me feel."

Does anyone really 'like' high dose SSRI's? 80/Prozac might arguably feel like luvox cr.

Which is your first line OCD SSRI, target dosage, and how do you escalate them? Given that you hate paxil and prozac but luvox the most.
 
Does anyone really 'like' high dose SSRI's? 80/Prozac might arguably feel like luvox cr.
80 mg Prozac likely would not be sufficient for OCD. Likely, you have to go to 100-120 mg.
Which is your first line OCD SSRI, target dosage, and how do you escalate them? Given that you hate paxil and prozac but luvox the most.
What is this "hate" stuff? Sounds histrionic. But the less side-effect, the higher dose can be tolerated. So I typically hand patients a starter pack of Lexapro, titrating to 20 mg, then a script for Citalopram at 40 mg for two weeks and 60 thereafter. Then, they have been on this dose for a bit less than a week when I get them back after a month and we assess side effects. If tolerated, coast on another 6 weeks and reassess if there is any meaningful, symptomatic relief of OCD symptoms, with the knowledge that studies says about 13 weeks at the high dose before a robust response (50% reduction in symptoms). If no or minimal benefit at 10 weeks, then consider going higher. If to strong side effect, we consider affordability of going to 30 mg Lexapro, with the understanding that eventually, 40 mg Lexapro is better tolerated than 80 mg Citalopram.

If this doesn't work, I have done some mixing and matching, such as 40 mg Citalopram and Venlafaxine XR 150 mg.

Other options are mixing 2 SSRI or SSRI with TCA.

But it does get dicey with side-effects, and serotonin really need to be controlled. No tramadol, no Chantix and so on.

I have tried a few times to go to 100 mg Fluoxetine, but most patients simply didn't want to stay at that dose. And I am not willing to utterly snow and blimp up a patient just because Paxil is "supposed" to be an alternative. If that's the case, 300 mg Zoloft is heck of a lot more tolerated than 80 mg Paxil. Luvox BID dosing at high levels are to serious a risk for withdrawal, and Luvox CR is to expensive for my patients, not to mention that the pharmacies don't carry it here.

So despite your odd choice of words, there is no "hate" here, only the practicality of medication effects and side-effects as my patients report them.
 
Glad to see this thread. I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence regarding patients experiencing severe side effects on Paxil to the point where I felt I wouldn't prescribe it if I practiced psychiatry but it seemed to be a popular choice amongst the psychiatrists I've worked with. Feels better to know my irrational thoughts are backed by some evidence.

Greenshirt-I don't know if you've picked this up yet in your training. FDA approvals allow for a medication to gain an FDA approved indication so long as in a double blinded, placebo controlled study of at least X people (I forgot the exact amount) the medication shows significantly better response than a placebo.

OK--but when you have multiple SSRIs (or any other medication) then there's the question, which one is the best?

Unfortunately, and you'll see this with almost every single medication in every field of medicine, there is not much data. Thanks to the CATIE trial, we psychiatrists finally got a head to head trial on most of the existing atypicals, and in fact that study dispelled a lot of ideas which were going on at the time--e.g. Geodon was known as the atypical that put patients most at risk for QT prolongation, atypicals would have significantly better efficacy than typicals etc.

Same for SSRIs. Yes there have been some data comparing the SSRIs, but they are sparse, and when the data is presented, it's often not presented to non-psychiatrists.

So most non-psychiatric doctors--who actually are the majority of prescribers of psychotropics, yes they may know that paxil works, but they might not know that it is the most likely to have several uwanted side effects.

Another problem is several prescribers give out medications based on unscientific principles. E.g. I knew one attending in the South NJ area that put everyone on Paxil because that was her "favorite medication." She had no scientific basis for her decision to make it the "favorite." There should be no such thing as a favorite medication. We should give out medications based on that medication being the best for the patient given the amount of data we have.

That requires that we psychiatrists not only keep up to date on the latest data, but also put a lot of thought into the medications we choose, and also make an attempt to educate our patients as to why we recommend the medication.

In the case with that doctor, as is with unfortunately several doctors, it's easier to simply give out a medication without putting a lot of effort into the decision making process. Unfortunately several doctors practice what I call "monkey" or "fast food" medicine. Person has high BP? Give them an antihypertensive, without regard to whether or not a duiretic, B-blocker, ACE-I is the best for their profile. Same with psychiatry. Person's depressed? Give an antidepressant, but place no more thought into which one and why that one is picked.

I call it "monkey" medicine because any monkey can put a ball into a circular shaped hole and a cube into a square shaped hole. Unfortunately you will see some doctors from time to time give out medications in this manner.

As for Paxil, when it came out, it was touted as better than prozac, and several doctors still give it out based on what the drug reps told them at the time. (Same with Neurontin--several doctors still give it out to treat bipolar though the studies are clear that it has not showed significant improvement in double blinded placebo controlled studies. A drug rep told them it worked, they keep prescribing it for bipolar with it even though any doctor worth his salt should know the studies point to it not working for bipolar....)
 
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I call it "monkey" medicine because any monkey can put a ball into a circular shaped hole and a cube into a square shaped hole.

And that keeps the monkeys from putting Seroquel into the "insomnia" hole and from putting Zyprexa into the "anxiety" hole.
Doesn't seem to stop doctors, though. :smuggrin:
 
And that keeps the monkeys from putting Seroquel into the "insomnia" hole and from putting Zyprexa into the "anxiety" hole.
Doesn't seem to stop doctors, though.

Given how hard it is to get into medical school, and the difficulty of residency, it's sometimes shocking for some when they realize how little effort some attending doctors put into their work.

On occasion, when I have a medical student with me, and we go over a case, and we see the mistakes, it's harder for them to accept because they're still in a stage where such work is unacceptable. If they put that level of quality, they'd be kicked out. They common-sense wise figure that someone above them would not make easy mistakes.

Wow...This is one of the reasons why I like coming to this board--because being able to discuss practice with others helps to keep me up to date.
 
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