Penalize ACGME programs that refuse to interview/rank DOs

[alprazoslam]

Long story short for most things if you make yourself conpetitive then you get chances at most places to do most things. It’s still worth going md of course if you can. It’s just that much harder and top programs are usually out of reach.

The pile of DO applicants is much weaker than md ones. I know last year at my school 1/4 took usmle and the average was 227. Most were in the top of the class ( a few *****s took it who shouldn’t have and failed it. IE the ones who think “I barely passed comlex but I’ll rock usmle”). If the whole class took it the average would prob be like 210.
Not even close to average. Most of these people will be fine doctors but when it comes to residency application then no they do not hold the weight

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[libertyyne]

Long story short for most things if you make yourself conpetitive then you get chances at most places to do most things. It’s still worth going md of course if you can. It’s just that much harder and top programs are usually out of reach.

The pile of DO applicants is much weaker than md ones. I know last year at my school 1/4 took usmle and the average was 227. Most were in the top of the class ( a few *****s took it who shouldn’t have and failed it. IE the ones who think “I barely passed comlex but I’ll rock usmle”). If the whole class took it the average would prob be like 210.
Not even close to average. Most of these people will be fine doctors but when it comes to residency application then no they do not hold the weight

and places that are pedigree ****** are not magically interviewing lower to mid tier MD students in droves either.

 

[Stagg737]

Good he earned it! His situation would have been easily remedied by a high-linkage post-bacc at an MD school if his crappy GPA was truly no fault of his own (high mcat, crap gpa, interesting story-the triad). Don't see how it would take him a decade but it worked out for him. Gratz! The majority of the time it's just that GPA/research/MCAT. The exceptional stories are well, exceptional.

He may have been able to do that, but his freshman GPA before he dropped out was around a 1.0 from what I remember. According to him he was told that he was basically screwed when he got rejected 2 or 3 cycles in a row so he decided to get a job in a research lab instead because he thought his chances were dead. Glad he ended up trying again, because he's an absolute beast. Just pointing out that for some people simply "repairing" a bad GPA or MCAT score is not as easy as you pointed out (I know from experience, as it took me 3 cycles and 3 gap years to get in).

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Ah... why be at a party you aren't invited to?

 

[MightBeACylon439]

>whom attends
stopped reading right there

Whhaaaa whhhaaaaa grammar whhhaaaa whhaaaa grammar, I’m gonna ignore your message by touting my intellectual pseudo-superiority over a pointless grammatical technicality.

absolutely agree...no clue why this site has people that dont get it

They’ve either done zero research and are shocked when they’re already in DO school and find out, or its just willful ignorance.

Also, haven’t seen this discussion. It may have been addressed and I didn’t see it cause as in all sdn posts it has gone wildly off topic and many posts are meandering manifestos that go absolutely nowhere- but how about we allow this but we also penalize former AOA programs who screen MD applicants.

 

[DrGoon]

Why would you want to go to a place that doesn’t want you? Imagine the backlash you would feel if that happened. If they are a program who is about to be penalized, do you think they would ever let you forget you are only there to fill a quota? That would be pure misery.

I would rather go to a program that looks at my whole application and me as a person. That’s a program that will be good for me.

I want to go to a program that looks at my whole application... except my board scores and where I went to school lol

 

[studentdoct4281]

Moral of the story is just don’t go into the AOA residency/match. If your applying acgme you will still be competitive at almost all places

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Moral of the story is just don’t go into the AOA residency/match. If your applying acgme you will still be competitive at almost all places

Lol

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Moral of the story is just don’t go into the AOA residency/match. If your applying acgme you will still be competitive at almost all places

I think you were cut off early.

You forgot to say “for specialties like Peds, community IMs without any chances of fellowships, and FM.”

Even specialties like PMR nowadays require USMLE Step 1 of 220 for a DO to get 12+ IIs.

 

[studentdoct4281]

No but seriously, great applicants are being weeded out of the acgme match by false promises of aoa programs. Acgme is trimming the remaining aoa programs (especially the new ones) that was part of the reason why they agreed and were ok with merger

 

[studentdoct4281]

That’s not true. Previously aoa programs for all. And a lot of historically acgme programs have 50/50 classes

 

[studentdoct4281]

That’s not true. Previously aoa programs for all. And a lot of historically acgme programs have 50/50 classes

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No but seriously, great applicants are being weeded out of the acgme match by false promises of aoa programs. Acgme is trimming the remaining aoa programs (especially the new ones) that was part of the reason why they agreed and were ok with merger

That’s not true. Previously aoa programs for all. And a lot of historically acgme programs have 50/50 classes

What are you even talking about?

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

You love fear mongering. I know plenty of people in the past two cycles who only took comlex (did below average) and have/ got double digit IVs in EM, PM&R, IM (university), and Psych. Chill out, man.

Get your data updated bc I guarantee you that you aren’t getting double digits IIs for Psych as just an example if you have below average Comlex only #s for the current cycle.

There’s a KCUMB 4th yr here who’s applying to Psych right now if you want to PM her.

LOL at double digits IIs for EM with only below average Comlex #s. Hate to break people bubbles here but at least 50% of well established DO schoolss will go to low paying PCP fields either out of choice or by necessity. #s will be higher for new DOs.

 

[DrGoon]

You love fear mongering. I know plenty of people in the past two cycles who only took comlex (did below average) and have/ got double digit IVs in EM, PM&R, IM (university), and Psych. Chill out, man.

What type of psych programs are they interviewing at? I know multiple MD students with above average step1/2 and no red flags who only got 8-10 invitations out of 40+ applications.

 

[DrWhozits]

I believe that there should be a penalty for ACGME programs that consistently refuse to interview DOs OR rank them . Programs should also not be allowed to screen DOs out in ERAS. The same goes for former AOA programs. Thoughts?

*added rank

As a DO, this notion of discrimination is ridiculous.

Do you think that people in business are equal when one applicant went Harvard’s MBA vs Greendale Community College?

Or look at law...only applicants from the top tier law schools get bigtime jobs with large firms.

Just be happy that after our training at one of the many, many programs who willing accept DOs, we will be able to do the same jobs in the community and make the same amount as our MGH colleagues. However, If you wanted to be a Harvard Medical School faculty/ researcher, the prep for that probably should have started in undergrad.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

First off, the person you are referring to is a guy. Second off, my best friend is applying to psych right now. He has 13 IVs and below 500 comlex for both, no usmle. Since you decided to start a trade off of single anecdotes. Other friend has 17 for EM. 510 level 1 and 450 level 2.

LOL I don’t believe the 17 IIs for EM for Comlex only with those numbers at all. I also don’t believe the stuff about Psych right now.

No offense but I think your friends are lying to you in order not to be embarrassed.

Luckily for everyone, there’s a google spreadsheet with number of IIs and stats for diff specialties verified by applicants in the current application cycle. Those numbers will be competitively inflated due to the nature of the Internet.

I’m not saying that miracles don’t happen. But your anecdotes aren’t in line with the current environment informed to me by my sources. For our sake, I hope that your anecdotes are more representative of the current landscape than mine.

 

[DrGoon]

LOL I don’t believe the 17 IIs for EM for Comlex only with those numbers at all. I also don’t believe the stuff about Psych right now.

No offense but I think your friends are lying to you in order not to be embarrassed.

Luckily for everyone, there’s a google spreadsheet with number of IIs and stats for diff specialties verified by applicants in the current application cycle. Those numbers will be competitively inflated due to the nature of the Internet.

I’m not saying that miracles don’t happen. But your anecdotes aren’t in line with the current environment informed to me by my sources. For our sake, I hope that your anecdotes are more representative of the current landscape than mine.

what are hearing about this cycle for psych?

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

what are hearing about this cycle for psych?

Not bad if you do 2-3 aways with at least 220s Step 1. One of my seniors is sitting at 11-12 interviews at decent programs from East coast, West coast, and Midwest. All of them are either university mid tiers or strong community programs in desirable cities.

This person's academic profile for third year clinical rotations are all H/HP with one LP/P.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I really dont care what some obnoxious rando on an online forum pulls out of *** in regards to perceived notions. I've seen both their scores and the amount of IVs with my own eyes.

Luckily for everyone there is actual data by the nrmp out there to view, not some eschewed online forums' "spreadsheet." It's pretty simple to find. You can use this thing called... *google*.

Tableau Public

According to this little interactive chart, there were 5 osteopathic students applying to EM in 2018 without an USMLE who have Comlex Level 1 score bet 500-549. 2 of them went unmatched. Hx said that your friend isn't special enough to be hitting 17 IIs especially with those numbers. Yup, I don't believe your anecdote for a second.

I personally don't believe that I'm overly pessimistic, considering that my numbers and projections are based on NRMP #s and ground research/stories from my seniors.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

LOL. Do you know how to click on the tabs? Serious question here.

In the year 2018, there were 23 people who applied to EM with a level 1 between 500-549 and no step 1 or 2 and 17 matched

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

LOL. Do you know how to click on the tabs? Serious question here.

In the year 2018, there were 23 people who applied to EM with a level 1 between 500-549 and no step 1 or 2 and 17 matched

Nope, I did just fine by applying COMLEX Level 2 under 500. Thanks for playing. Your anecdote is pure fiction.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Nice. Respond with half a completed thought, wait for someone to reply, then finish the thought. Sounds kinda pathologic.

Ya, bro, totally. I made up a scenario to argue with some LMU loser on a saturday night haha. Have a good one.

Time to take that SSRI pill dude. You're being delusional and making up stuff right now. High anxiety and depression from low board scores will do that to you. Pls seek psych help!

The only thing proven here among this childish nonsense is that you're wrong and delusional.

My case is done here.

 

[Goro]

Play nice, kids.

 

[group_theory]

Play nice, kids.

Agree with Goro - please stay civil and professional. Otherwise,

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Get your data updated bc I guarantee you that you aren’t getting double digits IIs for Psych as just an example if you have below average Comlex only #s for the current cycle.

There’s a KCUMB 4th yr here who’s applying to Psych right now if you want to PM her.

LOL at double digits IIs for EM with only below average Comlex #s. Hate to break people bubbles here but at least 50% of well established DO schoolss will go to low paying PCP fields either out of choice or by necessity. #s will be higher for new DOs.

Lol at low paying With > 200k annually.

 

[Redpancreas]

In addition to the above criticisms of DO schools, clerkships shouldn’t be P/F....

 

[libertyyne]

In addition to the above criticisms of DO schools, clerkships shouldn’t be P/F....

Wait do schools have p/f clerkships?

 

[sylvanthus]

PNWU at the time I went there had Honors for the first two years and strictly pass/fail for rotations.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Wait do schools have p/f clerkships?

Ours is H/P/F.

 

[Goro]

Wait do schools have p/f clerkships?

Have no idea what ours are.

 

[libertyyne]

Ours is H/P/F.

thats interesting. IIRC even the non ranked preclinical MD schools i think have H/HP/P/F.

 

[spartan25]

This is like the Batson rule that makes it illegal for lawyers to strike jury members during jury selection based on race alone. It didn’t work because lawyers just came up with other reasons why they would strike black members from the jury.

Likewise, PDs would just come up with a dozen other “DO-neutral” reasons as to why a DO candidate wasn’t interviewed/ranked.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

thats interesting. IIRC even the non ranked preclinical MD schools i think have H/HP/P/F.

They just switched it this year from A/B/C. Apparently they did it because the criteria for getting an A was super random and it was hurting the better students.