Physician's Assistant v. MD/DO

[Green Mountains]

Hello everyone,

I really enjoy reading the posts. If anyone could provide any advise for me I would be truly grateful.

Here is my story. I am 36 and have been in sales and management for 12 years. I made good money and had a lot of success. I am a father of 3 boys! and have a great friend my wife. I thought about a career in medicine when when my son almost died at the age of only 6 weeks he had most of his left lung removed. I was really moved and touched by the care he got from both the surgeons, doctors, PA's, and nurses. He is ok now. Then I watched my father in-law die from lung cancer I helped take care of him and he passed very quickly. Then I became ill with a very bad infection that took almost a year to get rid of. I was on a lot of antibiotics. Now I am better. So I making a career change from business to medicine. What brought me to this is the doctors, PA's, and nurses showed me and my loved ones what it truly means to love what you do, have true compassion and make a difference in the lives of people who are sick. So I am now a CNA and just starting a RN program. I will have my undergrad degree in 3 years and will have 3 years of experience in the medical field as a nurse. I am doing this for my son, my father-inlaw and myself. I want to make a difference in lives of people. After that I want to take it to a higher level. I will be 39/40 when I am ready. I have thought about PA school, NP school, and just maybe medical school. Will my age affect my chances for any of these schools? Is it too late to think about medical school? Will it be hard to land a job at my age? If a PA/NP I would be 42/43 when I graduate and MD/DO 44/45. I just wonder if I am fooling myself at my age to think a MD or DO would hire me at that age. My GPA in the past was in the range of 3.4/3.7 is this to low? If anyone could provide any advise for me I would truly be grateful.

I wish everyone of you the very best. Everyone of you truly makes a difference in the lives of patients.

Green Mountains

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted6669]

Hello everyone,

I really enjoy reading the posts. If anyone could provide any advise for me I would be truly grateful.

Here is my story. I am 36 and have been in sales and management for 12 years. I made good money and had a lot of success. I am a father of 3 boys! and have a great friend my wife. I thought about a career in medicine when when my son almost died at the age of only 6 weeks he had most of his left lung removed. I was really moved and touched by the care he got from both the surgeons, doctors, PA's, and nurses. He is ok now. Then I watched my father in-law die from lung cancer I helped take care of him and he passed very quickly. Then I became ill with a very bad infection that took almost a year to get rid of. I was on a lot of antibiotics. Now I am better. So I making a career change from business to medicine. What brought me to this is the doctors, PA's, and nurses showed me and my loved ones what it truly means to love what you do, have true compassion and make a difference in the lives of people who are sick. So I am now a CNA and just starting a RN program. I will have my undergrad degree in 3 years and will have 3 years of experience in the medical field as a nurse. I am doing this for my son, my father-inlaw and myself. I want to make a difference in lives of people. After that I want to take it to a higher level. I will be 39/40 when I am ready. I have thought about PA school, NP school, and just maybe medical school. Will my age affect my chances for any of these schools? Is it too late to think about medical school? Will it be hard to land a job at my age? If a PA/NP I would be 42/43 when I graduate and MD/DO 44/45. I just wonder if I am fooling myself at my age to think a MD or DO would hire me at that age. My GPA in the past was in the range of 3.4/3.7 is this to low? If anyone could provide any advise for me I would truly be grateful.

I wish everyone of you the very best. Everyone of you truly makes a difference in the lives of patients.

Green Mountains

you sound like a great applicant for pa, np, or md programs.
MANY folks who apply to pa and np programs are > 40. we had a 54 yr old in my class and an avg age of 35. if you are getting a bsn and want to be a midlevel(pa or np) strongly consider the dual pa/np programs at uc davis and stanford. 2 yrs and you get both a pa and an fnp cert.
best of both worlds.
for pa info:
www.physicianassistant.net
www.aapa.org
www.appap.org
good luck whatever you decide....

 

[RxnMan]

Many definitions used to include "proteins" before the discovery of ribozymes. Enzymes are catalysts that promote reactions repeatedly, without being damaged by the reactions. Ribozymes do that. Newer textbooks are saying that.

I have a degree in chemical engineering - I know what catalysts are So now they're defining enzymes as biological catalysts?

 

[chopstick1]

Hi, Flyingbridge,

I would just like to respond to your post from the perspective of a nurse practitioner. First of all, in order to pursue your degree as a NP, you must first be an RN--usually with a bachelors degree in nursing. There are a few schools out there that will take RNs with an associate degree, but there are added "bridge classes" required before beginning the masters program in nursing. Therefore, if you are not already a nurse, you would spend 4 years getting a BSN and 2+ years getting an MSN. (Not exactly the fast track that this associate dean led you to believe).

When you get out of your NP program, you are still limited by your scope of practice (just like a PA is limited)--that's why they are called mid-level providers. My desire to not "settle" for practicing as a NP was the fact that what I aspire to do in medicine goes beyond the NP scope of practice. Plus, my dream had always been to be a physician, so once the opportunity to go to medical school presented itself, I was not about to say NO to that opportunity!

For me what it boiled down to was that there was a voice in my head that wouldn't let the dream of being a doctor die. I had to give it a shot. Fortunately, I will be attending medical school somewhere beginning Fall 2006. What you need to ask yourself is how strong your desire is to be a doctor. Would you be satisfied with practicing as a mid-level provider? If so, then, go for it. However, if that voice in your head just won't let you stop short of medical school, you may later regret settling for PA / NP school.

flying bridge, thats why I chose not to be a NP, the scope of practice. I've been offered many different opinions about the PA/NP or MD/DO route, thought about it for many years while working as a nurse, and yes its' longer and more debt, more hours....but in the end you're achieving what you want. don't let the ability to practice quickly (2 yrs vs ?) nor let grades or money deter you from going the MD/DO route. it's about lifestyle and what you want from it.

the question to ask yourself is, regardless of debt/yrs put into school, considering scope of practice would you be happy as a PA/NP?

 

[Green Mountains]

you sound like a great applicant for pa, np, or md programs.
MANY folks who apply to pa and np programs are > 40. we had a 54 yr old in my class and an avg age of 35. if you are getting a bsn and want to be a midlevel(pa or np) strongly consider the dual pa/np programs at uc davis and stanford. 2 yrs and you get both a pa and an fnp cert.
best of both worlds.
for pa info:
www.physicianassistant.net
www.aapa.org
www.appap.org
good luck whatever you decide....

I just wanted to thank you for the information and advise. Also thank you for the websites for PA's and your words of encouragement. It was great to hear from a PA.

Green Mountains

 

[mdub]

He also said they were just as lucrative for the most part

If by "just as lucrative" you mean "maybe half as lucrative" I'd agree.

 

[kate_g]

ISo now they're defining enzymes as biological catalysts?

Certainly purpose-designed antibody catalysts (generate an IgG specific to the transition state of a reaction and voila! a catalyst) aren't called "enzymes" even though they're biological catalysts. Maybe it's a distinction based on natural occurrence. (I personally don't think the common use of "ribozyme" means that "enzyme" has been re-defined to include RNA catalysts, either. But then I don't write textbooks.)

 

[scpod]

So now they're defining enzymes as biological catalysts?

Word for word. I can show you the texts.

 

[flyingbridge]

It had been some time since I looked at this thread and after reading through it, I just want to say thanks to everyone who took the time to reply-- in some cases, a substantially long amount of time to reply with responses that are truly invaluable! So I am very grateful to you all for the effort. But I hope no one takes this post as an implicit request to cease and desist-- by all means, please keep posting on the topic. I am sure not just myself but many other wannabe docs/nurses, etc. out there are finding it very useful to their own decision-making processes.

 

[flyingbridge]

"An enthusiastic achiever, you are easily discouraged and confused". Yes, I am a Monkey in the Chinese Zodiac and according to the paper placemats at the Yangtze Buffet, that's one of the characteristics. Sorry if I am repeating myself but it is SO true about me.

I got a B- in calc II this semester. I am waiting on my gen chem II grade. I expect it to be a B of some kind. These are not the grades of a winner (med school admissions-wise, anyway). And these are perhaps the rantings of a whiner, but please bear with me, I must get it all out. I suppose it would not be so bad esp. if I were being told "Keep at it champ, you have a real fighting chance since the no. of applications to med school are so low!" But that is as we say, not the case. In fact, even worse perhaps for my motivation is the convo I had with a local 80+ year-old MD who is a highly-respected specialist in geriatrics and certainly someone who wants to see the medical profession thrive. He is also all too aware of the need for gerontologists that currently exists and most certainly will grow very quickly over the next 30+ years. When I first mentioned the convo I had with the admissions dean (see the very first post in the thread for my original story) he acted almost dismayed that someone could say what he had said to me. He said he would do some talking to other drs. who are more regularly involved in the standard caseload of patients (a man his age and status can see whatever patients he wants whenever he wants-- cub MDs are not so situated) and then we should talk again.

Two weeks later, we did. This is thus a recent convo. He was saying something much different this time. He was, like the dean, gently letting me know that given my age and the demands on MDs these days to see for example 4 patients (at least) per hour, to work 80 hrs+/week, etc., and the high demand of clinical workers that exists now, perhaps indeed I should be looking at allied professions (NP, PA, OT, etc.). We also talked a bit about my grades and the competition to get into med school. He didn't seem to be openly optimistic that my stellar B-something performance was likely to be very competitive.

[As an aside, it seems to me there is a huge success-gap in colleges these days. There seems to be a solid single-digit %age of REALLY bright kids in college that are highly-motivated and already solidly-proven overachievers, while there seems to be most of the rest of the bunch of kids that are faring all right or just getting by. There was some of that when I was going to college the first time but it is nothing like what I am seeing now. Also, it seems, kids are not having nearly as much fun as they used to-- I sense a lot of heads-down-and-work-work-work attitudes rather than "balanced college experience" stuff. Anyway, yes, this makes for some real bright kids competing to get the best grades, the best internships, etc., to get into places like med school or the best grad programs for the sciences, etc., while meanwhile, popular press reports how America is having real trouble with the fact that relatively few of our students want to go into engineering and sciences as compared to how it used to be in the 1970s and 80s. So it is all very confusing but nonetheless, the reality is that for med school admissions, only the very best students seem to be getting into them, and that's what matters to people like ourselves, yes?]

Back to the original line... anyway, I was very grateful for his input but walked away feeling dejected to say the least. I can almost discount the words of a 50-something MD who is perhaps in midlife and processing a lot of stuff right now, but to hear this all from this man is another matter. He is simply too senior and grandpaternal a person to be saying anything from a place of disingenuity or perhaps much more commonly, from a sense of his own frustrations. It is very hard to discount his opinions.

So now, here I sit. It is Saturday afternoon, the day after my last final exam, on a rainy afternoon. I have the TV playing, tuned to a hockey game. I am not really even a hockey fan, though I have nothing against the game, but there it is, I have it on. I guess it's nice to have the noise in the background.

I haven't registered for summer classes (Physics). I am not sure I would too well at them at this point anyway. It wouldn't be so bad if I really wanted to go back to work as a programmer. But I really don't. So I am wondering now, what the hell is next? If I decided to become a PA, or something else, I wouldn't even know I was into a program until next year. So, get a job-- doing what? I dunno. Maybe I can find work as some kind of healthcare aide, perhaps through a healthcare services temp agency. Problem is, I don't have anything but volunteer experience at dealing with sick people but that may not matter.

I just have to keep my perspective, I think. I have to remember, when I used to work at places like gas stations, that I didn't want to work there, either. Most people, hell, maybe it's safe to say 95% of people who work, are doing what they really don't particularly want to be doing.... *sigh*... the dream is dying... anyone have anything to say to this beleaguered and fretful soul? And, for Godssakes, be dead honest. I must live in reality or else it isn't reality. Or something like that.

 

[r0b0tafflicti0n]

I just have to keep my perspective, I think. I have to remember, when I used to work at places like gas stations, that I didn't want to work there, either. Most people, hell, maybe it's safe to say 95% of people who work, are doing what they really don't particularly want to be doing.... *sigh*... the dream is dying... anyone have anything to say to this beleaguered and fretful soul? And, for Godssakes, be dead honest. I must live in reality or else it isn't reality. Or something like that.

Hell, I wish I could help you, but I'm in the same boat. Every time I think I'm 100% convinced that I'm going to go one way, someone brings up something that convinces me that maybe I made the wrong decision. At this point I am really focusing on preparing for med school because I think I can honestly say that, as an MD, I wouldn't look back and think Damn. . .I wish I would've become a PA. . . I'm pretty sure I'd have at least SOME, if not a lot of what if? moments if I do anything else.

Of course, that's assuming I get in somewhere. If become a midlevel as a "default" career, I'll just feel like a big failure.

 

[flyingbridge]

Hell, I wish I could help you, but I'm in the same boat. Every time I think I'm 100% convinced that I'm going to go one way, someone brings up something that convinces me that maybe I made the wrong decision. At this point I am really focusing on preparing for med school because I think I can honestly say that, as an MD, I wouldn't look back and think Damn. . .I wish I would've become a PA. . . I'm pretty sure I'd have at least SOME, if not a lot of what if? moments if I do anything else.

Of course, that's assuming I get in somewhere. If become a midlevel as a "default" career, I'll just feel like a big failure.

Indeed... how are your grades? Part of this is that I am wondering really, will I be able to compete with a B average in these classes I am taking and a 2.82 undergrad GPA from 15 years ago? Sure I am concerned about "what ifs" after I might go a different route, but I have "what ifs" in my head now-- such as "What if I go 2 years of school plus waiting, waiting, and never get into a med school? Meanwhile I will have spent loads of money living and taking classes and have bupkes to show for it. Then, I have to go with a Plan B (or "Plan B-Minus" as I am calling it) of some kind. Based on what I have heard from these two drs I mentioned in my posts, it reallllly sounds like one needs a very respectable GPA to stand a chance of gaining entry, and/or a remarkable, truly amazing resume including what, a couple PhDs? I don't have any of that stuff.

 

[r0b0tafflicti0n]

Indeed... how are your grades? Part of this is that I am wondering really, will I be able to compete with a B average in these classes I am taking and a 2.82 undergrad GPA from 15 years ago? Sure I am concerned about "what ifs" after I might go a different route, but I have "what ifs" in my head now-- such as "What if I go 2 years of school plus waiting, waiting, and never get into a med school? Meanwhile I will have spent loads of money living and taking classes and have bupkes to show for it. Then, I have to go with a Plan B (or "Plan B-Minus" as I am calling it) of some kind. Based on what I have heard from these two drs I mentioned in my posts, it reallllly sounds like one needs a very respectable GPA to stand a chance of gaining entry, and/or a remarkable, truly amazing resume including what, a couple PhDs? I don't have any of that stuff.

It seems that way, but a lot of people on this board are proof that people with average and below-average GPAs are still gaining entry to MD and/or DO programs. My grades are dead average, by med school standards (3.49). . .I graduated 5 years ago, but I did have a slight DOWNWARD trend in grades and also withdrew twice (once medical, once "sick of school"--how to explain that?!), which should hurt me as well. Right now I am trying to gain some medical experience kind of waiting to see if I can swing straight/mostly As in my prereqs (if I can even AFFORD my prereqs) before I put all that $$ into applying.

 

[cfdavid]

Hello everyone,

I really enjoy reading the posts. If anyone could provide any advise for me I would be truly grateful.

Here is my story. I am 36 and have been in sales and management for 12 years. I made good money and had a lot of success. I am a father of 3 boys! and have a great friend my wife. I thought about a career in medicine when when my son almost died at the age of only 6 weeks he had most of his left lung removed. I was really moved and touched by the care he got from both the surgeons, doctors, PA's, and nurses. He is ok now. Then I watched my father in-law die from lung cancer I helped take care of him and he passed very quickly. Then I became ill with a very bad infection that took almost a year to get rid of. I was on a lot of antibiotics. Now I am better. So I making a career change from business to medicine. What brought me to this is the doctors, PA's, and nurses showed me and my loved ones what it truly means to love what you do, have true compassion and make a difference in the lives of people who are sick. So I am now a CNA and just starting a RN program. I will have my undergrad degree in 3 years and will have 3 years of experience in the medical field as a nurse. I am doing this for my son, my father-inlaw and myself. I want to make a difference in lives of people. After that I want to take it to a higher level. I will be 39/40 when I am ready. I have thought about PA school, NP school, and just maybe medical school. Will my age affect my chances for any of these schools? Is it too late to think about medical school? Will it be hard to land a job at my age? If a PA/NP I would be 42/43 when I graduate and MD/DO 44/45. I just wonder if I am fooling myself at my age to think a MD or DO would hire me at that age. My GPA in the past was in the range of 3.4/3.7 is this to low? If anyone could provide any advise for me I would truly be grateful.

I wish everyone of you the very best. Everyone of you truly makes a difference in the lives of patients.

Green Mountains

Well, it sounds like your heart is in healthcare. Assuming you'll be willing to work until 65 or so, you'd have 15 or more years (after residency) to practice if you went MD/DO.

I think it depends on your goals and what you are willing to sacrifice to get there. I personally believe that it's possible to live a happy, balanced life throughout the process, if one manages their time wisely. I may be naive about the process, since I'll be starting MS1 in a few months and really don't know yet. But, I really think it'll come down to disciplined time management.

 

[flyingbridge]

It seems that way, but a lot of people on this board are proof that people with average and below-average GPAs are still gaining entry to MD and/or DO programs. My grades are dead average, by med school standards (3.49). . .I graduated 5 years ago, but I did have a slight DOWNWARD trend in grades and also withdrew twice (once medical, once "sick of school"--how to explain that?!), which should hurt me as well. Right now I am trying to gain some medical experience kind of waiting to see if I can swing straight/mostly As in my prereqs (if I can even AFFORD my prereqs) before I put all that $$ into applying.

3.49 is actually a strong fighting GPA! With enough other stuff, it should be sufficient to get you in some place. But again, my B/B-'s translate into 2.8/3.0. My undergrad is 2.82. I am not going to guess that I will be able to ace Bio and O-chem with As (umm, I am guessing I may if I am very lucky get B-s), or escape Physics with more than a B. Basically, I am sorry to say that I just don't think I can make the grades necessary to even be a reasonably competitive non-trad applicant. Now if I had some real nice connections or was someone's kid (ie, the governor's son or whatever) it would be a different story. But, Ahh ain't, as they say. I have no advantage of any other kind either other than the fact that I am sort of interesting what with my graying whiskers. Other than that, bupkes.

I hate to sound pessimistic and that, believe me, it is not my intent or nature. But I am a realist (I have had to be, what with software dev't being what it is!). It was an act of extraordinary optimism in fact for me to go back to school. Perhaps if you sent me back in time to 1989 and put me through these classes as they were back then, I would ace them. But standards have definitely changed. Some of the stuff in these classes is what used to be senior-year material back in the good ol' days (or so I am told) due to the effects of AP Chem, Calc, Bio classes in high schools both here in America and in other countries (didn't have that stuff in my high school let me tell you-- we were lucky to have any lab equipment to work with at all in fact- my town had 5,000 people in it).

As I have observed, these kids that want to go to med school today seem to be really, really bright and very, very focused. I am sure I am fine in the brains dept. (I score around 135-140 on IQ tests) but that is most definitely not all that it takes to qualify for med school-- one must have a seriously well-cultivated ability to study hard topics that he or she does not want to study, among other things. I have never been good at that. I am too easily distracted.

Maybe this whole weed-out process, as seemingly arbitrary as it is and perhaps prejudicial, does have something to recommend it. It gets rid of the following people: 1) not bright enough 2) not committed enough 3) not studious enough 4) not resilient enough and 5) not self-confident enough. Alas I feel I may not make the cut for at least two of these characteristics, and are they not also very important ones for an MD to have?

Damn, this hairshirt is itchy...

If anyone out there in nontrad-land has a different take/set of experiences, feel free to post.

 

[Creightonite]

wanted to say something about nursing pratiocioner. I talked to couple of them a week ago. They have to go through 3-4 years of school in addition to BA. It is what is called masterous degree in nursing. They work during MS and therefore do not have to pay the tuition. They said it is a highly need profession and that they are usually hired at 70-80K as a STARTINGpay. Also, NPs can prescribe meds.

 

[scpod]

I have no advantage of any other kind either other than the fact that I am sort of interesting what with my graying whiskers. Other than that, bupkes.

Life experience is an important thing. The young kids might have better grades, better LORs, and better ECs, but they will never match your life experience.

 

[medworm]

I am a father of 3 boys! and have a great friend my wife. I thought about a career in medicine when when my son almost died at the age of only 6 weeks he had most of his left lung removed. Green Mountains

Med school + residency will take away at least 7 of the most precious years of your 3 kid's childhood years. Food for thought, esp for your son with the removed left lung.

The other venues are far less taxing.

 

[deleted6669]

wanted to say something about nursing pratiocioner. I talked to couple of them a week ago. They have to go through 3-4 years of school in addition to BA. It is what is called masterous degree in nursing. They work during MS and therefore do not have to pay the tuition. They said it is a highly need profession and that they are usually hired at 70-80K as a STARTINGpay. Also, NPs can prescribe meds.

NP Is actually 21 -24 months post bsn , so a total of 6 yrs after high school.
if you have a prior bs in anything and are not a nurse you can do a direct entry np program in 3 yrs. yr 1 gets you the bsn, yr 2-3 get you the np.
np programs are converting to dr of nursing practice programs over the next few yrs( don't know the exact date) but nothing of substance will change between the current ms fnp and the dnp degree, just more tuition.

 

[cfdavid]

Life experience is an important thing. The young kids might have better grades, better LORs, and better ECs, but they will never match your life experience.

I agree. In a sense, though, it almost seems "unfair" cause it's not like the youngins can do anything about lacking some of our life experiences. lol

Granted, most of us that have been successful in the application process have good, and unique life experiences (versus just vegging around for 5 plus years. lol). But, still......

I really do feel that being a non-trad really did help me out. As an older applicant, you're just more sure of yourself and are able to better communicate (hopefully) with your interviewer etc. I think the maturity level is a big asset.

O.k., I've deviated enough from the main point of the thread.

 

[Green Mountains]

I agree. In a sense, though, it almost seems "unfair" cause it's not like the youngins can do anything about lacking some of our life experiences. lol

Granted, most of us that have been successful in the application process have good, and unique life experiences (versus just vegging around for 5 plus years. lol). But, still......

I really do feel that being a non-trad really did help me out. As an older applicant, you're just more sure of yourself and are able to better communicate (hopefully) with your interviewer etc. I think the maturity level is a big asset.

O.k., I've deviated enough from the main point of the thread.

I just want to thank you for your feedback. It is nice to hear from more people. I can use all the advise I can get. I wish you the very best also

Green Mountains

 

[Green Mountains]

Med school + residency will take away at least 7 of the most precious years of your 3 kid's childhood years. Food for thought, esp for your son with the removed left lung.

The other venues are far less taxing.

Thanks for the advise. I am very excited about everything. I just cannot wait until I am able to contribute more of myself to people like my son. He truly is an inspiration to me.

Green Mountains

 

[thes_hunter]

Since my end goal was to be able to have a free clinic on the side, I finally decided to decline my spot in the PA program and apply to an allopathic school.

From my own limited experience, It is harder to work in a free relief clinic as a PA and DO. Now given I have only looked at one place but since the reason they give that PA's and DO's can not be credentialed in the state of LA I am figuring that this could be a problem in other states.

Now what I want to do is a bit different from your goals, since I want to do medical relief work, nationally and internationally. And thus I have to worry about credentials in other states and countries.

I too have been considering both the PA and DO route, and am doing research to refine my decision, however I am leaning toward MD (Even though I really like the greater holistic focus in DO programs). Though I just corrected a one of my own misconceptions. One of the reasons why I was avoiding DO programs was that I was under the misconception that Doctors without Borders didn't take DO's. I am mistaken, but they don't take PA's for field work, only experienced ones for coordinator positions.

Something to consider if you are considering being a PA and want to do medical relief work like me.

 

[oldpro]

From my own limited experience, It is harder to work in a free relief clinic as a PA and DO. Now given I have only looked at one place but since the reason they give that PA's and DO's can not be credentialed in the state of LA I am figuring that this could be a problem in other states.

.

Huh? I thought DO was all 50 states now?????????????

 

[thes_hunter]

Huh? I thought DO was all 50 states now?????????????

They might not be able to transfer one states licensure for anothers, since they need to cover the MD's under their own LA malpractice insurance.

That is the only thing I can think of, but then again, I do not know what the real deal is.

 

[oldpro]

They might not be able to transfer one states licensure for anothers, since they need to cover the MD's under their own LA malpractice insurance.

That is the only thing I can think of, but then again, I do not know what the real deal is.

I do not understand a DO is a Docotor of Osteopathy (just like a medical Doctor) Lic to practice Medicine and I thought it was all 50? Now it's not?

 

[tkim]

They might not be able to transfer one states licensure for anothers, since they need to cover the MD's under their own LA malpractice insurance.

That is the only thing I can think of, but then again, I do not know what the real deal is.

http://www.loma-net.org/legislativeupdates.htm

 

[oldpro]

http://www.loma-net.org/legislativeupdates.htm

Okay so it is okay and all 50, the poster here that said it was a problem did not know the Real Deal.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

Okay so it is okay and all 50, the poster here that said it was a problem did not know the Real Deal.

DOs and MDs are licensed to practice medicine in all 50 states.

 

[OSUdoc08]

From my own limited experience, It is harder to work in a free relief clinic as a PA and DO. Now given I have only looked at one place but since the reason they give that PA's and DO's can not be credentialed in the state of LA I am figuring that this could be a problem in other states.

Now what I want to do is a bit different from your goals, since I want to do medical relief work, nationally and internationally. And thus I have to worry about credentials in other states and countries.

I too have been considering both the PA and DO route, and am doing research to refine my decision, however I am leaning toward MD (Even though I really like the greater holistic focus in DO programs). Though I just corrected a one of my own misconceptions. One of the reasons why I was avoiding DO programs was that I was under the misconception that Doctors without Borders didn't take DO's. I am mistaken, but they don't take PA's for field work, only experienced ones for coordinator positions.

Something to consider if you are considering being a PA and want to do medical relief work like me.

You should tell that to my good friend from college, who is a DO emergency medicine physician at an MD residency program in Louisiana.

I know several DO's who work for Doctors Without Borders.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I do not understand a DO is a Docotor of Osteopathy (just like a medical Doctor) Lic to practice Medicine and I thought it was all 50? Now it's not?

DO = Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine
MD = Doctor of "Allopathic" Medicine.

Both are EQUAL in every state in the United States.

 

[oldpro]

From my own limited experience, It is harder to work in a free relief clinic as a PA and DO. Now given I have only looked at one place but since the reason they give that PA's and DO's can not be credentialed in the state of LA I am figuring that this could be a problem in other states.

Now what I want to do is a bit different from your goals, since I want to do medical relief work, nationally and internationally. And thus I have to worry about credentials in other states and countries.

I too have been considering both the PA and DO route, and am doing research to refine my decision, however I am leaning toward MD (Even though I really like the greater holistic focus in DO programs). Though I just corrected a one of my own misconceptions. One of the reasons why I was avoiding DO programs was that I was under the misconception that Doctors without Borders didn't take DO's. I am mistaken, but they don't take PA's for field work, only experienced ones for coordinator positions.

Something to consider if you are considering being a PA and want to do medical relief work like me.

EVEN rereading it still it looks like the OP here is saying that DO is somehow different and is missinformed? I'm not trying to start anything just that I hate this MD/DO thing. It seems to be mostly Premeds who do the arguing on this and it seems to be link to ............they just do not know enough about it and believe infromation passed on by others who know little too.

BTW I'm an MD student.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Folks,

I recently spoke with the assoc dean of admissions for the coll of medicine of a large, respected private university in the northeast. Among other things, he commented that someone who really wanted to do a lot of patient care and who wanted to be hands-on, and in particular wanted to get out there relatively quickly, should strongly consider becoming a physician's asst. or nurse prac. rather than an MD. He said MDs spend so much time nowadays in admin and related activities that to really do a lot of the kind of patient care MDs used to do, and get to it soon, one should look into these areas. He also said they were just as lucrative for the most part, a lot more satisfying generally if you wanted to do a lot of direct-patient contact work, and the liability was a lot less. Also, it could happen in 2-4 years instead of 9-12 years, with a lot less debt.

So now, I am in a tizzy. I have spent the last 2 years focused on doing whatever it takes to get myself ready for application to med school, including relocating, etc., and someone of this man's position has told me: think again, your actual work-life goals may not get met if you take the path you have planned.

I would like some informed and sincere comments please to this question. Also, apologies in advance if this is old ground being re-hashed, as I imagine someone else must have brought the topic up already. But the nature of these boards I have seen is one of dealing with particulars. Some re me: age: 37, B.A. (GPA: 2.8) 1989, M.S. (GPA: 3.7) 1996, 10 years' work experience.

This is a misconception. After several years of practice, a physician will have 100's of thousands more in the bank than a PA.

Don't go to PA school because you are worried about debt.

Also, what is this 2-4 years vs. 9-12 years discussion? PA school is 2 years, and MD/DO school is 4 years. That is a 2 year difference. If you count residency, that is a 5 year difference. I do believe that PA's do postgraduate training, however, which would reduce this time.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

This is a misconception. After several years of practice, a physician will have 100's of thousands more in the bank than a PA.

It is downright naive to pick PA over MD/DO simply because you are worried about debt. Ask any physician who has been out of residency a while how worried they are about debt.

Do not make the mistake of allowing money to control your life. Make your decision based upon what will make you happy.

 

[scpod]

From my own limited experience, It is harder to work in a free relief clinic as a PA and DO. Now given I have only looked at one place but since the reason they give that PA's and DO's can not be credentialed in the state of LA I am figuring that this could be a problem in other states.

Apparently nobody, including the poster, bothered to actually read what the link said. I will quote from it:

"Chiropractor and Physicians Assistants: cannot be credentialed. Therefore they can’t legally work here."

There was NO mention of DOs at all-- it said PAs and CHIROPRACTERS. The issue is one of obtaing a temporary medical license in the state in order to volunteer there. For those of you who wish to obtain a medical license in LA, you might be surprised to find out that they use one single license form for MDs, DOs, and even DPMs. You just check off at the top which of the three licenses you are applying for. It was just another instance of someone failing to correctly read something on an internet site and causing a huge, stinking storm because of it.

 

[oldpro]

Apparently nobody, including the poster, bothered to actually read what the link said. I will quote from it:

"Chiropractor and Physicians Assistants: cannot be credentialed. Therefore they can’t legally work here."

There was NO mention of DOs at all-- it said PAs and CHIROPRACTERS. The issue is one of obtaing a temporary medical license in the state in order to volunteer there. For those of you who wish to obtain a medical license in LA, you might be surprised to find out that they use one single license form for MDs, DOs, and even DPMs. You just check off at the top which of the three licenses you are applying for. It was just another instance of someone failing to correctly read something on an internet site and causing a huge, stinking storm because of it.

I also have the question, How does working for Disaster relief figures into the career choice anyway????????? Thats why we posted what we posted.

 

[thes_hunter]

Apparently nobody, including the poster, bothered to actually read what the link said. I will quote from it:

"Chiropractor and Physicians Assistants: cannot be credentialed. Therefore they can’t legally work here."

There was NO mention of DOs at all-- it said PAs and CHIROPRACTERS. The issue is one of obtaing a temporary medical license in the state in order to volunteer there. For those of you who wish to obtain a medical license in LA, you might be surprised to find out that they use one single license form for MDs, DOs, and even DPMs. You just check off at the top which of the three licenses you are applying for. It was just another instance of someone failing to correctly read something on an internet site and causing a huge, stinking storm because of it.

I was wrong. Thank you for correcting that.

I had no intention of saying anything negative of any program. Just stating what I had found in my own very limited research, and even in that research I was inaccurate because I did not see the mention of DO's. Again I thank you for clearing that matter up.

I sense there has been a lot of hostility on this board over this issue. Please do not read hostility into the tone of my written communication, because there is none.

If I hadn't had the misconception about Doctors without Borders until yesterday, I would have probably gone the DO route myself previous to this.

My only intention with my post was to share information and create a dialog. That is why I post my sources so people can fact check and see for themselves if I am full of crap (Which I frequently am, and have admitted this several times).

So again, thank you Scpod for clarifying the situation and it puts my mind at ease to know that there is a greater parity between MD's and DO's in this country then I had thought.


And Old Pro, I am not saying that ability to praticipate in Disaster Relief should be an important consideration for everyone. It is for me, because that is MY goal. Which is why I will not consider a position as a PA.

 

[oldpro]

I was wrong. Thank you for correcting that.


And Old Pro, I am not saying that ability to praticipate in Disaster Relief should be an important consideration for everyone. It is for me, because that is MY goal. Which is why I will not consider a position as a PA.

Hey it's okay, Just that you found the fact that PA's are not universal like RN's.

For the Most part a US RN can go anywhere in the world and work, An MD has no trouble from the US and little trouble from a WHO listed school.

DO's outside the US are still trying to educate the world so there is some limits in the rest of the world.

But I got that from your original post and was pointing it out thats all, trying to see if I missed something?

As far as PA's good field if you wanna stay in your state but not as portable in some instances.

 

[thes_hunter]

Hey it's okay, Just that you found the fact that PA's are not universal like RN's.

For the Most part a US RN can go anywhere in the world and work, An MD has no trouble from the US and little trouble from a WHO listed school.

DO's outside the US are still trying to educate the world so there is some limits in the rest of the world.

But I got that from your original post and was pointing it out thats all, trying to see if I missed something?

As far as PA's good field if you wanna stay in your state but not as portable in some instances.

I see tremendous potential for huge growth in the PA field, and I would not be surprised if in the upcoming years they get a lot more recognition and national support.

I read somewhere (Which means I have lost the source) that chains like Wal-Mart are thinking about putting small clinics staffed with PA's and RN's in their stores. The articles seemed to indicate that it's business model would target over worked mothers whom would like verify that their children's illness is a virus, and not something like Strep throat.

So I think anyone deciding on a career as a PA will find the future environment to be very favorable towards them and their career goals.

 

[oldpro]

I see tremendous potential for huge growth in the PA field, and I would not be surprised if in the upcoming years they get a lot more recognition and national support.

I read somewhere (Which means I have lost the source) that chains like Wal-Mart are thinking about putting small clinics staffed with PA's and RN's in their stores. The articles seemed to indicate that it's business model would target over worked mothers whom would like verify that their children's illness is a virus, and not something like Strep throat.

So I think anyone deciding on a career as a PA will find the future environment to be very favorable towards them and their career goals.

I think as a "PA in a BOX" LOL (DOC ina BOX) thats a good idea and simple screening and injuries could be handled well by PA's Have a couple MD's at the phone length to back them up. Hey don't feel well and need a sick note go to the MED place at Wally world (Wal-Mart). LOL good idea.

BTW RN's PA's NP's CNA's EMT's PARAMEDICS and ect help make the world of medicine work I think we def need each and everyone of them ( So I can get some sleep on call too) For good patient care!

 

[nycpa]

Good day...I know this is a shot in the dark but I'm not sure where else to turn...I am a recent graduate (Jan 05) and I seem to be in quite a jam...I was accepted into an ortho residency in Feb of 05...the program knew I had absolutely no knowledge of ortho (hadn't done any rotations focusing on ortho)...they accepted me into the program all the same, also with the knowledge that I hadn't taken my boards yet (NCCPA)...so long story short I failed my boards first time around and lost my position in the residency...I sense now that the same person who hired me is upset with me perhaps bc I made him look bad (since I had little to no knowledge of ortho)...I am now wanting to get into ortho and am finding it nearly impossible...everywhere wants experience...I am against the wall at this point so much that I think my only option now is to start applying to other ortho residency programs, which I don't have a problem with either...I was hoping you could give me some advice on this issue...thanks for your future help...enjoy your day! Please email me at [email protected] if you have the time...appreciate it!

 

[flyingbridge]

I sense there has been a lot of hostility on this board over this issue. Please do not read hostility into the tone of my written communication, because there is none.

Indeed. It's almost like there's a battle over which is more worthwhile to pursue... MDs think it's second fiddle to be a PA but secretly wish they had the better hours and far-less legal liability, while PAs seem to think MDs are hopeless self-important workaholics, just dying to climb up onto that cross of self-sacrifice, all while looking down at the crowd below ("looking down" being the operative phrase) filled with PAs and other less-than-MD types milling about there at the foot. But hey, "Why become a PA if you can become an MD?" is the unspoken judgment always kicking around back there in the minds of MDs, PAs, and others "in the know"-- it is assumed (and arguably so) that most PAs are not as academically successful as most MDs and that really galls them (the PAs I mean), constanly fighting the nagging feeling that they just weren't "good enough" to become an MD-- $hit!!!

Meanwhile, amidst all this egoizing and internal struggling, the old people and hopelessly infirm line the hospital hallways waiting for their turn to die, under-treated and largely ignored all day, since there is a shortage of personnel in every possible job category in medicine. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and reminds me of "The Bonfire of the Vanities". [And puleeze, don't get me started on managed healthcare and insurance companies!]

I really don't care, after two years now of jumping about, rearranging my life, and otherwise doing what was "the unthinkable" a few years ago, if I could get into med school or not with my stinky, God-awful, far-less-than-Olympian 2.82 undergrad GPA and my miserable 3.0 GPA from my calc and chem classes of the past two semesters. My whole point of wanting to pursue medicine has zilcho to do with whether or not I make $250,000/year as an MD vs. $80,000/yr. as a PA or whether I get to thumb my nose at overworked MDs as I head to the door at 5:00 on Friday while they coffee-up for another shift, or even if I can prescribe a narcotic without getting a counter-signature (MD) vs. needing to get one (PA). What counts for me is simply this: How can I do the greatest good for the greatest number of patients while still being a clinician? [I suppose if I invented a damn-near-magical wheelchair that helped people get their ability to walk again back, I would as an engineer be doing much more for people than I would as an MD or anything else. That one invention, like the "discovery" of antispetics, would be enough to earn me lifetime back-on-my-a$$-sitting laurels. But if I were meant to be an engineer, I would be doing it by now and aside from that just don't have the interest in it that I have in clinical work.] As near as I can tell, becoming an MD is not really in my strike zone: my grades aren't good enough and I have to ask myself if I am ready or even able to devote the next seven years of life so religiously to medical school and its related activities? Becoming a PA is a far more "accessible" option and it will allow me to do what I want to do for humanity (such as it is, the pathetic, miserable race it is...). So that's what I am doing.

Viva those who can become and want to become MDs. Viva those who can and want to become PAs. Viva those who will do anything at all to help treat the sick and injured. And to hell with those who are too busy worrying about how much they can make or how important they can feel based on their damned job title.

 

[BIOETHICSfan]

I am not certain if this question was raised earlier or not, but can Physician Assistants be a part of WHO (or agencies similar in nature)?

 

[Dr. V]

Don't be too hard on PA's, they are EXCELLENT in what they are trained to do. As long as they stay within that realm they are the best thing since sliced bread. I learned a great deal from a couple of Surgical PA's during medical school. However, when it came to other fields they had about a 2nd year med student's knowledge base. In their field though they were AWESOME, which is what they were supposed to be, and they taught me alot.

It has been my experience that the NP's were not nearly as good as the PA's when it came to knowledge (the fresh graduates). That may be because the ones I knew were not required to have any clinical experience, they went straight through Nursing school then 18 months of NP school with a few clinicals and lots of Nursing Theory classes. They graduated at about the level of a 1st year medical student.

However, those nurses with years of experience that later on went to become NP's were freakin AWESOME as well. They seemed to have a broader scope of knowledge but less in depth of their specialty than the PA's (but the scope of knowledge allowed them to handle curve balls better). Same thing here, I learned a great deal from experienced NP's. (I think this is what NP's were intended to be and now they are pushing them out without clinical experience which hurts their perception when people come into contact with them).

Both fields are excellent choices and both provide excellent patient care within their scope. The only problems come when complications arise or tangents occur, that's when they need an MD to help.

Sure there are perks to being an MD, just as there are perks to being a midlevel. Those excellent PA's/NP's are invaluable to healthcare and they should be proud of what they do.

 

[btg138]

I have been solely focused on becoming a MD/DO, but recently began thinking about the PA route. First, a little background - I'm almost 36, little healthcare experience, and only have to complete O-chem II in terms of prereqs (currently 3.71 Science GPA in Post-bacc). I went to a very prestigious undergrad school (3.1 GPA) and have an MBA (3.87 GPA). I also have a 4 1/2 year old daughter who I take care of 50% of the time (Joint custody after a divorce) and I will soon be remarrying and planning on more children. My fiancée has a great job and is supportive of my decision either way. I currently make over six figures in a job that I hate, and I want to help people and make a difference, doing something I love. I do not want to be a doctor for the money (of course I won't say no to a large salary).

I am concerned that if I pursue a MD/DO, I will be in school and residency for at least 8 more years (7 + lag year), with not much time for my family. I recently found out that I have all the prereqs required for a PA school here (except for taking the GRE), and could be complete with a Masters in 27 months and practicing right away.

Part of the reason I want to become a doctor is to actually help people. I definitely want to see patients, but I do not want to only handle minor cases (e.g. colds in Pediatrics). While I am sure it varies, how autonomous are PAs? How fulfilling is it?

Realistically, does pursuing a MD/DO even make sense at my age and with my situation? Family is very important to me and I would really need to be able to spend time with them while in med school (which I think is very doable for years 1 & 2), especially during years 3 & 4 and residency.

I would be really interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

 

[Dr. Steve-O]

...And being in debt is not the worst problem in the world. Not achieving your dreams is.

Very well put.

 

[njbmd]

I have been solely focused on becoming a MD/DO, but recently began thinking about the PA route. First, a little background - I'm almost 36, little healthcare experience, and only have to complete O-chem II in terms of prereqs (currently 3.71 Science GPA in Post-bacc). I went to a very prestigious undergrad school (3.1 GPA) and have an MBA (3.87 GPA). I also have a 4 1/2 year old daughter who I take care of 50% of the time (Joint custody after a divorce) and I will soon be remarrying and planning on more children. My fiancée has a great job and is supportive of my decision either way. I currently make over six figures in a job that I hate, and I want to help people and make a difference, doing something I love. I do not want to be a doctor for the money (of course I won't say no to a large salary).

I am concerned that if I pursue a MD/DO, I will be in school and residency for at least 8 more years (7 + lag year), with not much time for my family. I recently found out that I have all the prereqs required for a PA school here (except for taking the GRE), and could be complete with a Masters in 27 months and practicing right away.

Part of the reason I want to become a doctor is to actually help people. I definitely want to see patients, but I do not want to only handle minor cases (e.g. colds in Pediatrics). While I am sure it varies, how autonomous are PAs? How fulfilling is it?

Realistically, does pursuing a MD/DO even make sense at my age and with my situation? Family is very important to me and I would really need to be able to spend time with them while in med school (which I think is very doable for years 1 & 2), especially during years 3 & 4 and residency.

I would be really interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

Hi there,
Once you are accepted to medical school, you are not locked away in a tower. You can make time for anything that is important to you. The only problem you might have is that you may have to relocate to attend medical school but your hours as a medical student/physician are no worse than many other professions and far more interesting.

I am a senior General Surgery resident. All of my fellow residents are married and most are parents. Not only do they spend time with their families, they welcome this time away from the hospital. There are going to be times when you will not be at a birthday party, as a physician, or miss spending a whole day on Christmas with your family because people do get sick over the holidays but there are firemen, policemen and physician assistants who have to work on holidays and nights too.

Being a PA is a wonderful profession but it is far different than being a physician. If you chose this profession, choose it because you love the scope of practice for a physician assistant and not because hours or because it is a substitute for being a physician.

njbmd

 

[oldpro]

I am concerned that if I pursue a MD/DO, I will be in school and residency for at least 8 more years (7 + lag year), with not much time for my family. I recently found out that I have all the prereqs required for a PA school here (except for taking the GRE), and could be complete with a Masters in 27 months and practicing right away.

Part of the reason I want to become a doctor is to actually help people. I definitely want to see patients, but I do not want to only handle minor cases (e.g. colds in Pediatrics). While I am sure it varies, how autonomous are PAs? How fulfilling is it?


I would be really interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

I think the part were you want to handle more complicated cases is where you will not be satisfied as a PA. PA's may tell you they are autonomous but they are not (hence physcian assistant). They are Lic under an MD. If you want that kind of autonomy then MD/DO is the only way to go. Do not be like me, wait to long and start to regret not going sooner. I would honestly regret not being a MD the rest of my life if I was not here in Medschool.
One thing you kept saying was "help people" I'm an RN and I have done that and I can tell you I want to be an MD not just to help but direct care. As a PA you can only direct so much care and would have limits as an RN has limits.
Think about those things, PA's take call too, have long hours. Do not think it will be "9 to 5", there is no such thing in Medicine. As an RN I took call and was torn from my family many times during the years, when I was in the Northeast, I was stuck in the Hospital one time for 24 hrs during a snowstorm because It was an "Emergency" and Nurses could not leave. I always had to fight for holidays off. So do this cause you love the work, I do or I wouldn't be here.

 

[btg138]

Thank you for the great advice. I think some introspection on my reasons for becoming a doctor are is in order!

 

[mich79]

You are so right. I am 26 and contemplating med school and so far all i have gotten form doctors and other professionals in the health care field is the notion of dont do it. Its too long a road, what about the other things in life yadda yadda. But when i ask if they had to do it all over again, would they choose medicine and the answer was yes b/c thats all they know. As another person posted, you will hear alot about the time it will take to complete the task, but i say go for it if that makes you happy. There will be those who will discourage you, those who will have no faith in your abilities, those who say oh go the easy route and be a PA. i say forget the what ifs and neysayers and think about the you and what you really want. By know means will it be a easy decision but at the end of the day you are the only person who has to live with the choice you make.

Thanks, RxnMan. Where are you at right now in your process of getting to med school? And, why do you think drs. would be interested in being so demotivating? Is this just a test of commitment or what? Seems strange to me, this thing of drs. saying "No, don't do it!! Argghh!!" I am aware of no other profession in the world where practitioners are so seemingly against the addition of new colleagues, yet claim there is this awful shortage of them!