PI not understanding how med schools want rec letters written

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alt91119

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Research is the strongest portion of my application: I have >2000 hours, a first author publication, national conference presentations, etc, and according to my PI am the most productive undergrad my lab has ever had. In addition, or perhaps naturally as a result of this, my PI and I are quite close.

She allows those she writes rec letters for to view them before she submits them. However, I have seen several of her letters in the past and am concerned with the format. She essentially just lists things unrelated to research from the person's resume ("ie he worked hard and attained a 3.8 GPA in undergrad, was a member of x organization, etc"), and then has ~1 paragraph related to lab work (with a number of generic platitudes that just randomly list adjectives like "he is intelligent, motivated, and driven" without much context). From what I've heard, she does this for essentially every letter and sees any other way of writing unprofessional.

I feel the above style might turn what should be my strongest letter into something mediocre, however. I more envisioned it to be something much more telling like "I've mentored 80 students and he is the single most productive. Published a first author before my average graduate student does, etc etc."

1) Am I right in thinking the way she writes letters will make them of little use to medical schools?
2) If so, how best should I go about convincing her to write it in a way that only talks about what I did in lab with lots of context? Again, I will be at least somewhat involved in the writing of the letter, but she is apparently set in her ways on this. Because we are close, should I just firmly ask that she write it the way I want? (I know for a fact that she will never write a single negative thing in the letter, so it would be safe for me to try to push hard). Should I try to have my pre-med advisor or a doctor I know who is an adcom tell her that schools want it written a different way to be meaningful?

Perhaps I am just ignorant to how normal rec letters work and completely off the mark here, but input is appreciated either way. Thanks!

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First off, your accomplishments in research will speak for themselves. Her poorly written letter of rec will not negatively affect you at all. The only "damage" that it really does is that you won't have a great letter of rec which will impress ADCOMS

Now that that's out of the way, what is in the letter is firmly a communication between her and the admissions committee. It isn't your place to provide suggestions and you, by far, have absolutely no right to "firmly ask" her to write it your way.

Finally, having said what I previously said, what you should be concerned about is your maturity and attitude. The fact that you want your PI to say, and I quote:

I more envisioned it to be something much more telling like "I've mentored 80 students and he is the single most productive. Published a first author before my average graduate student does, etc etc."

Alone shows your lack of maturity
 
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First off, your accomplishments in research will speak for themselves. Her poorly written letter of rec will not negatively affect you at all. The only "damage" that it really does is that you won't have a great letter of rec which will impress ADCOMS

Now that that's out of the way, what is in the letter is firmly a communication between her and the admissions committee. It isn't your place to provide suggestions and you, by far, have absolutely no right to "firmly ask" her to write it your way.

Finally, having said what I previously said, what you should be concerned about is your maturity and attitude. The fact that you want your PI to say, and I quote:



Alone shows your lack of maturity

I can definitely understand where you're coming from, and in any other case I would never ask a writer to write in a certain way, but the fact that she has us write the letter together, tracking revisions as if it were the writing of a manuscript, kind of breaks the "firmly a communication between her and the admissions committee" bit in my mind. She has already openly said that she wants my help and input in creating the letter.

Also, the part you quoted didn't necessarily need to be said in that way. What I was trying convey was a general point: that writing about what I did in the context of what is "normal" in her lab, in my mind, makes sense to be included in the letter. For example, I know that in certain fields of research, or for certain labs, it is common to publish 10+ papers per year. In our research area/lab, however, ~2 papers per year is average, and most grad students don't get a first author until their 4th or 5th year. I feel that is useful info to put my contributions in context, and wouldn't be seen on my application otherwise. Again, I'm not saying I'm necessarily right here, and one of my conclusions in the original post is that I might be totally off the mark in even thinking this, which is why I was asking for input.
 
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You're in no position to direct her letter writing. You will sometimes have bad letter writers, but fortunately you are in a situation where your accomplishments speak about your skill and scholastic involvement. Many undergrads, although very brilliant and dedicated, will not get a first author publication/national presentations because their experiments produce a lot of negative data, assays within a lab are new and relatively unoptimized, and the list goes on.

I don't think you lack maturity; it's a reasonable concern, but just don't take it too far. There's only so much you can do for yourself. A mediocre letter is better than no letter at all. You can always suggest/offer a meeting with your PI to discuss your medical school application and talk about how important your experience in her lab has been. Talk about your career goals and the overall package/themes you want your application to portray. Offer her all these resources, and if she says she doesn't need them, then it's not your fault and she certainly isn't going to trash talk you.

My PI jokes that scientists are some of most socially inept people ever. If anything, I hope you have other components in your application that show off your skills in building interpersonal relationships, empathy, dedication, determination, and etc.
 
Finally, having said what I previously said, what you should be concerned about is your maturity and attitude. The fact that you want your PI to say, and I quote:

I more envisioned it to be something much more telling like "I've mentored 80 students and he is the single most productive. Published a first author before my average graduate student does, etc etc."

Alone shows your lack of maturity

:rolleyes: Classic SDN.
 
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The only reason I find it particularly frustrating is that my PI is one of the nicest people I have ever met, has a very close relationship with me (said she sees me like her son) , and genuinely wants to give me the best letter possible. If she actually understood what adcoms looked for in a letter I know she wouldn't have any issue writing it that way. Perhaps it is partially a language issue... or rec letters were done differently in her home country
 
Have you ever considered the fact that everything you want your PI to say actually does show through your application? Adcoms know what they are doing. For example, they aren't blind that getting a degree in pottery is a bit easier than particle physics. So they know your field of research doesn't produce too many papers in a given amount of time.
 
Yet another example of a millennial posting on an anonymous forum instead of speaking to the person personally. Not your fault, just commenting on a worrisome aspect of this generation's communication skills.

If you're that close, talk to her and gather evidence from this site about what a rec letter should say. See what she says. It would most likely work out. Not a hard situation.
 
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Have you ever considered the fact that everything you want your PI to say actually does show through your application? Adcoms know what they are doing. For example, they aren't blind that getting a degree in pottery is a bit easier than particle physics. So they know your field of research doesn't produce too many papers in a given amount of time.
I'd like to see you make a vase. Or a bowl with garlands without burning yourself. That **** is not easy :smug:
 
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Yet another example of a millennial posting on an anonymous forum instead of speaking to the person personally. Not your fault, just commenting on a worrisome aspect of this generation's communication skills.

If you're that close, talk to her and gather evidence from this site about what a rec letter should say. See what she says. It would most likely work out. Not a hard situation.

Every generation has people who can not communicate. These issues are not in the slightest unique to millennials. We just happen to have more forums to express our angst.

And in fact, I would argue that this post speaks to the ability of millennials to communicate better than their baby boomer counterparts by using collective knowledge to advocate more effectively for themselves.
 
Agreed with the idea of providing this guide. If she asks for your resume, GPA, MCAT, etc you could mention how you'd prefer her letter focus on the points in the letter writing guide. As a PI with much more experience than you with regard to academia/mentor-ship, it's interesting that you believe you have better insight into what an adcom wants than she does. You're a student, she's a PI. She reads letters to help fill academic positions and writes them for students, while... you've read SDN. Give her some credit...

Beyond that: you should be more grateful I'd say... Some projects are seemingly doomed from the start, some are destined for a paper, some are buildup for someone else to continue research/publish. To imagine you came in and made miracles happen is a bit of a long-shot. Your research in the context of her work is much more understood by her than you. Also, the fact that she will allow you to read the letter first is a kindness she doesn't have to offer.
 
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Every generation has people who can not communicate. These issues are not in the slightest unique to millennials. We just happen to have more forums to express our angst.

And in fact, I would argue that this post speaks to the ability of millennials to communicate better than their baby boomer counterparts by using collective knowledge to advocate more effectively for themselves.
Fair but I disagree. Irrelevant here though. Looks like OP has good direction now! :clap:
 
So I had a two letter writers who frankly weren't very good at writing letters but were truly outstanding mentors.

One was my PI, who wasn't a native English speaker so his letters typically were very choppy in his emails and scholarship letters. He also was extremely busy running the most funded lab on campus and was constantly overbooked for time. My solution was to offer to write a draft letter of recommendation and have him edit it to his specifications. I consulted my advisor making sure I didn't beach any confidentiality of the letter writes still using a dossier, so I never saw his edits but at least he saw what I was looking for in a letter.

I attached the AAMC guide to the draft so he could see why I wrote what I did. The draft saved him time, helped him with any formatting issues, and helped us communicate efficiently.
 
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