Poor job market

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Not to worry, I got the inside scoop that CAP will be coming out with a report projecting a massive shortage of pathologists due to impending retirement…
Members don't see this ad.
 
BlondeDocteur said:
does a "tremendous incline in pathology recruitment" mean there are more positions (offering lower salaries), or more candidates seeking to be placed? What a bizarre phrase.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a steep slope for those poor recruiters to climb and find jobs for all those pathologists....

in·cline

  1. noun
    noun: incline; plural noun: inclines
    ˈinˌklīn/
    1.
    an inclined surface or plane; a slope, especially on a road or railway.
    "the road climbs a long incline through a forest"
    synonyms:slope, gradient, pitch, ramp, bank, ascent, rise, upslope, dip, descent, declivity, downslope;
 
BlondeDocteur said:
does a "tremendous incline in pathology recruitment" mean there are more positions (offering lower salaries), or more candidates seeking to be placed? What a bizarre phrase.
Click to expand...

That word caught my eye too. I suppose the writer thought that "incline" means the opposite of "decline," and therefore would mean more positions? The next sentence starts with "With the new opportunities," so I think your first interpretation is correct.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
gbwillner said:
I know that the mood and atmosphere in the faculty lounge is as bad as I've ever seen it. There is no way around it- times are not good right now for the field, regardless of your, and my, success in finding a good position.

It's a world of haves and have nots. If you are in the latter group, you have my sympathy and support. You need to realize the realities of the marketplace and make yourself a real asset- not feel entitled to a job because you made it through medical training.
Click to expand...

Glad that you came around in your opinion. I think you guys are in a unique position to influence the quantity and quality of trainees. Hope you work on it.
 
Mud said:
That word caught my eye too. I suppose the writer thought that "incline" means the opposite of "decline," and therefore would mean more positions? The next sentence starts with "With the new opportunities," so I think your first interpretation is correct.
Click to expand...

Many recruiters are like politicians. They will say whatever to catch your attention, therefore, analyzing their writing is not like analyzing the Gettysburg speech and mostly waste of time.
 
BlondeDocteur said:
does a "tremendous incline in pathology recruitment" mean there are more positions (offering lower salaries), or more candidates seeking to be placed? What a bizarre phrase.
Click to expand...

It means the former: according to this recruiter there are more positions becoming available, and this number is expanding. However, these positions are coming at lower reimbursement with lower bonuses.
 
I would not trust what a recruiter says about the pathology job market, either way. It is very unlikely that a recruiter would have access to good positions in the first place.
 
2121115 said:
I would not trust what a recruiter says about the pathology job market, either way. It is very unlikely that a recruiter would have access to good positions in the first place.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't a recruiter have access to good jobs? I suppose many practices want to only woo people though their own network and alumni, but if you want a broader search, wouldn't using a recruiter be a good way to get good applicants? They do all the hard work of screening qualified applicants for you.
 
gbwillner said:
Why wouldn't a recruiter have access to good jobs? I suppose many practices want to only woo people though their own network and alumni, but if you want a broader search, wouldn't using a recruiter be a good way to get good applicants? They do all the hard work of screening qualified applicants for you.
Click to expand...

Because recruiters charge a fee for their services. Employers (practices, etc) pay $$ to the recruiter for a hire they get through the recruiter, sometimes as much as $10,000. Good practices don't need to do this (why would they when good pathologists are a dime a dozen). Not only that, but if you are job hunting and a practice is considering you and 2-3 others, you don't want to be the candidate that costs them $$ to choose.

Even more reason to stay away from recruiters - I have seen unscrupulous recruiters who try to collect a fee from a practice for hiring a candidate that at one time was working with the recruiter but found out about the job by other means, thus destroying that candidate's chances with the job. Do NOT ever even give your information to a recruiter - big risk.
 
gbwillner said:
It means the former: according to this recruiter there are more positions becoming available, and this number is expanding. However, these positions are coming at lower reimbursement with lower bonuses.
Click to expand...

Okay now we've definitely entered the surreal. Let me be the first to buy Salvador Dali a drink. I can't help myself- I must post the following (via Wikipedia):

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:[1]:37

  1. If demand increases (demand curve shifts to the right) and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
  2. If demand decreases (demand curve shifts to the left) supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  3. If demand remains unchanged and supply increases (supply curve shifts to the right), a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  4. If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases (supply curve shifts to the left), a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price
-Increasing demand cannot result in a lower equilibrium price (salary). If there are 50 new jobs advertised but 200 new pathologists looking for a job this is decreased demand. Not increased demand.
 
Tissue issue said:
Okay now we've definitely entered the surreal. Let me be the first to buy Salvador Dali a drink. I can't help myself- I must post the following (via Wikipedia):

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:[1]:37

  1. If demand increases (demand curve shifts to the right) and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
  2. If demand decreases (demand curve shifts to the left) supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  3. If demand remains unchanged and supply increases (supply curve shifts to the right), a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  4. If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases (supply curve shifts to the left), a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price
-Increasing demand cannot result in a lower equilibrium price (salary). If there are 50 new jobs advertised but 200 new pathologists looking for a job this is decreased demand. Not increased demand.
Click to expand...

Your statements may reflect free market principles when dealing with commodities with nearly unlimited numbers, not when dealing in the dozens or hundreds. It also probably assumes all conditions are the same, when here we are talking about jobs where people weigh location, atmosphere, their colleagues, and chance for promotion. I have no reason to think that the recruiter's words were false based on your theory. And she has no reason to lie. It is entirely plausible that in the last 3 months she was looking to hire for 3 positions, each starting at $200K, and now she's looking to hire 26 positions, starting at an average of $180K.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm not accusing her of lying. In her words " we've also seen a pretty significant decrease in salary and/or bonuses across the region". Patients lose too in a race to the bottom.
 
I just want to ask straight up what the chances are of an AMG from a mid-tier program getting a job that pays ~150-200K with one fellowship?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thedudeabides933 said:
I just want to ask straight up what the chances are of an AMG from a mid-tier program getting a job that pays ~150-200K with one fellowship?
Click to expand...

Excellent, if you're not geographically restricted, interview reasonably well, and are flexible in terms of what sort of practice arrangement you'll accept.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
What are some fellowships you all think would be most useful as far as getting job offers (aside from dermpath)?
 
Thedudeabides933 said:
What are some fellowships you all think would be most useful as far as getting job offers (aside from dermpath)?
Click to expand...

Cyto, heme, blood bank, molecular genetics, all make you more marketable, in my opinion. Any surgical pathology subspecialty fellowship (excepting endocrine, head and neck, neuro and other low-volume academic-type tracks) would also help. If you end up doing GI, GU, derm, or anything else that has shifted volume to physician in-office labs, there is a decent chance you'll end up employed by a clinician. That may not necessarily be a bad thing, depending on your ambitions.

If you don't end up where you'd like to be straight out of training, a common strategy that can be very effective is to take a junior academic job, work your ass off for a couple of years for low pay, and bide your time, waiting for a good private position to open up. Experience is one of the most important ways you can make yourself attractive to employers.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Tissue issue said:
Okay now we've definitely entered the surreal. Let me be the first to buy Salvador Dali a drink. I can't help myself- I must post the following (via Wikipedia):

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:[1]:37

  1. If demand increases (demand curve shifts to the right) and supply remains unchanged, a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price.
  2. If demand decreases (demand curve shifts to the left) supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  3. If demand remains unchanged and supply increases (supply curve shifts to the right), a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.
  4. If demand remains unchanged and supply decreases (supply curve shifts to the left), a shortage occurs, leading to a higher equilibrium price
-Increasing demand cannot result in a lower equilibrium price (salary). If there are 50 new jobs advertised but 200 new pathologists looking for a job this is decreased demand. Not increased demand.
Click to expand...

But salary doesn't really depend entirely on demand in medicine. To some extent it does, but in many ways it's essentially fixed by payors and reimbursement. In the world of medicine, there are too many other factors at play in the setting of the equilibrium price (salary). Demand can then change from there. But salary is not the only thing that appeals to many med school and residency grads. And your argument also assumes that all 200 new pathologists are equivalent in skills and hireability. If there are 50 new jobs and 200 new pathologists there may be increased demand for competent, well-rounded pathologists with communication skills.
 
yaah said:
But salary doesn't really depend entirely on demand in medicine. To some extent it does, but in many ways it's essentially fixed by payors and reimbursement. In the world of medicine, there are too many other factors at play in the setting of the equilibrium price (salary). Demand can then change from there. But salary is not the only thing that appeals to many med school and residency grads. And your argument also assumes that all 200 new pathologists are equivalent in skills and hireability. If there are 50 new jobs and 200 new pathologists there may be increased demand for competent, well-rounded pathologists with communication skills.
Click to expand...

Well said. More generally, these supply & demand correlations with prices & quantities presume an unhampered free market. America is a mixed economy that is about 60% fascist. It's a loaded word but a technically accurate description (Medicare, Medicaid, ACO, EMTALA, FDA, tax deductions for employer insurance, state coverage mandates, state not private licensing, etc). Washington largely runs the show while scapegoating their victims (insurance companies, pharma, docs, hospitals, etc). Laws are not suggestions. "Unlike those in more openly socialist countries who obtain health insurance directly from the government, Americans typically purchase health insurance from increasingly government-controlled insurance corporations, giving health insurance in America the veneer of a free-market industry. Behind the veneer, however, the industry is subject to countless state and federal laws, regulations, and taxes."
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/winter-2007/moral-vs-universal-health-care/
 
I work as generel pathologist in denmark. In whole EU regions there is all to few pathologist.
 
yaah said:
But salary doesn't really depend entirely on demand in medicine. To some extent it does, but in many ways it's essentially fixed by payors and reimbursement. In the world of medicine, there are too many other factors at play in the setting of the equilibrium price (salary). Demand can then change from there. But salary is not the only thing that appeals to many med school and residency grads. And your argument also assumes that all 200 new pathologists are equivalent in skills and hireability. If there are 50 new jobs and 200 new pathologists there may be increased demand for competent, well-rounded pathologists with communication skills.
Click to expand...

...or for the pathologist who will take the lowest cut. This is what happens at the uropath and GI path mills.
 
Over9000 said:
What's the pay like?
Click to expand...

Per published research, physician pay in Denmark is 2/3 the pay in the US. So 180K/yr offer becomes 120K/year or roughly 706,000 Dan. Krone.

A nice home comparable to what I live in where I am is roughly 10-14,000,000 Krone outside Copenhagen.

Do the math. You will lucky to live in a double wide trailer bunking with a heroin addicted hooker as a "pathologist" there.

Good luck.
 
LADoc00 said:
Per published research, physician pay in Denmark is 2/3 the pay in the US. So 180K/yr offer becomes 120K/year or roughly 706,000 Dan. Krone.

A nice home comparable to what I live in where I am is roughly 10-14,000,000 Krone outside Copenhagen.

Do the math. You will lucky to live in a double wide trailer bunking with a heroin addicted hooker as a "pathologist" there.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

If that's true, then its pretty clear why there's a pathologist shortage in Denmark.

As for our "shortage", I think its not so much a shortage of pathologists, but a shortage of pathologists willing to work for Walmart-greeter incomes.
 
It's hard to believe all the foreign physicians working over here in the US in mid-level (or worse) health care jobs. I've ran into a fair number over the years, many working in pathology labs. My favorite was the russian physician who now sits at the embedding center all day at a local slide mill. I've seen countless working as Medical Technologists, mostly asian females who followed their engineer husbands here. I worked with a pulmonologist from Spain for a few months that claimed she made what teachers make. I guess our lives could be worse.
 
Most docs in Europe have a totally different attitude towards medicine than we do. Their education is typically free, they dont have student loans, they often never will end up owning their own home.

Medicine itself is almost like a serious hobby, not a vocation or professional calling we consider it here. They live for their weekends and long vacations. They screw off whenever they feel they can get away with it. This is coming from spending a good amount of time there and being involved with an EU physician for some time.

Everything is overstaffed because physicians will act like foreign nurses do here: lots of sick out/disability days protected by crazy worker rights states.

But at the end of it, they are absolutely 2nd class citizens next to the merchant class, entrepreneurs, bankers, politicos and even university employees. As such, medicine does not attract the best of the best like it has a tradition of here in the states. More of a "well you didnt have the smarts to join the bankers in Frankfurt or Geneva so you are stuck being a surgeon" type attitude.

The lifestyle and SES of a EU physician is really comparable to lower skilled nurse here hence why when they get get to the States they are almost ecstatic to do jobs we might consider scut/crap (PA, histotech, lab asst etc.).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh snap. GE has been spinning off different parts of their company over the last two years (e.g. Synchrony Financial, etc), so it was just a matter of what they wanted to keep. Didn't GE purchase Clarient for something like $600M a few years ago...
 
Clarient was DOA YEARS ago. Around the time GE magically appeared out of nowhere and it was clear the original C-suite folks had cashed out.

Start Up, Cash Out, Bro Down...that IS California now sadly. We are a mile wide and millimeter deep.
 
This isn't anything new, but figure I'd share anyways. So I just got off the phone today with another recruiter today. She sent me an e-mail about a permanent position in Nowheresville, USA (small town rural area) which is a rare gem because it's actually a perm job and not locums. I commented how her e-mail ended "...this opportunity will not last long!" (yes there really was an exclamation point at the end). They only get about 1 or 2 permanent pathology jobs per year and are one of the largest physician recruitment agencies in the country. Part of that is a lot of jobs are thru word of mouth and for other reasons pathology positions typically don't use headhunters as has been discussed. But, also because of the relative dearth in our field. I don't think pathology groups would be so anti-recruiter if there was a high demand for our services. I told her that she must know the drill figuring this position will probably go fast. This particular recruiter has been in the business for over 18 years and handles other medical specialties as well and regularly talks with colleagues in their agency about the market for other fields. I asked where does Pathology rank in terms of physician opportunities relative to other fields and she said it was at the bottom. So basically, she reaffirmed the current supply & demand and what another recruiter told me three years ago when I was job hunting. At least he was kind enough to put Pathology in the bottom 3 for job opportunities vs outright #1...:meh:
 
Last edited:
What are the prospects of landing a job with a fellowship in molecular genetics?
 
Last edited:
The current pathologist shortage continues....

"We have already gotten over 60 applicants within 30 days for our opening." Annette Towne, North Carolina, 11 November 2015

"We had an almost overwhelming number of responses to our ad, and yes, we have filled the position." Ms. Kristen Pierce, Tennessee, 23 November 2015

Yep, job market is still crap.
 
Got an e-mail yesterday from a recruiter on Doctor's Day. So, I casually replied if he's got any positions in the area.

jobs.jpg



Good to know Forensics is still going strong...:meh:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

C
Dermatopathology Job Market looking good !!! ($450k, with 2 years partnership track)
2
Replies
80
Views
9K
RoachUSMLE
RoachUSMLE
L
Denver Job Market
Replies
48
Views
5K
Drifter76
D
C
Dermpath Job Market and Pay
Replies
1
Views
2K
deleted314957
D
KeratinPearls
Rural Job gets 25 Applications!
Replies
12
Views
2K
mwmd
M
KeratinPearls
Digital Path job got an “Incredible Volume of Responses”
Replies
8
Views
1K
TrojanRaggy
T
Top