post bac or redo undergraduate classes

[powerpuff_girl]

I need advice on which route I should take. I graduated from college in 2001 with a G.P.A. of 2.87. I had transferred from other colleges and my G.P.A. was lower for those schools so my overall combined undergraduate G.P.A. is very low. I received few a's and mostly b's in my basic science courses. I took the MCAT 3 years ago and received a 23 so I need to retake the MCAT. I have started to study for the August MCAT but I am having a difficult time. I have forgotten a lot since I graduated. I have a Master's in Public Health with a 3.82 G.P.A. My questions:

Should I pursue a post bac to bring up my science G.P.A. or should I retake bio, chem., o-chem. and anatomy (I received a b+ for the first semester and an a+ 2nd semester in physics). Then take the MCAT next year? I am afraid I will not do well on the August MCAT. If I take it this August it will be my third time. I would hate to do poorly and have to retake it again. But then again I would hate not to take the MCAT this summer because I spent so much $$$ on prep books plus the $210 fee. The MCAT is changing so I do not know if the prep books are changing also.

I have thought of maybe pursing a second undergraduate degree but that would take over a year. If I redo my sciences in two semesters, I will then be better prepared for the MCAT and then I can obtain a post bac for the 2007-2008 year.

Advise please. I have made academic mistakes in the past and I am paying for them now. I just do not want to make another mistake, plus I am married and 27 and I do not want to be in school forever. I would like to have a family one day. I have a love for medicine but when does one cross the line and say "you know, maybe it's not meant". How many times does one try to get into medical school?

Sincerely,

PG

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[Mr. Three-Wiggle]

You're only allowed three tries at the MCAT. After that, you need a special dispensation.

 

[relentless11]

Retaking classes is most worthwhile if you apply to DO schools since they will use the highest grade. Whereas MD schools will consider ALL coursework. In terms of MD schools, one should retake classes that you got a D or worse in.

For MD schools, retaking a class that you got a C or more in is low yield, since the GPA boost is minimal, not to mention med schools expect you to get an A the second time taking it for obvious reasons. Its far more impressive to get an A in a more advanced class since the GPA increase is still the same, but you are not repeating the class.

Clearly you need to boost your undergrad GPA. Whether it is by post-bacc, 2nd bachelors program, or taking undergrad classes in a grad program. You will need to destroy the MCAT. A score of 30 or more is a must. I think I would go as far as to say a score 34+ would be a more realistic estimate. Sadly a high MCAT score doesn't neccessarily make up for a low GPA, since most schools weigh undergrad GPA and MCAT equally.

 

[eag]

I wouldn't suggest re-doing courses you've done already.... many medical schools don't like that and that's a waste of your time, especially if you didn't get under a C. Your best bet is to go for a post bac focusing on advanced science classes. That will do two things if you do well... it will improve your gpa and show admissions that you are capable of doing the the work. They also like to see a heavy load either full-time course load or part-time course load and work. This also shows that you can handle a heavy load and still succeed. Just like what someone else said.... the MCAT is key for you, so don't mess that up.

 

[medanthgirl]

we have a very similar situation...i was 3.1 undergraduate gpa (2.7ish science though) and then a 3.8 in my master's program in international studies/health. i got a nice clinical research job, but still really wanted to be a doctor. i took 4 courses while i worked, retook two I did really bad in (1 in chem and 1 in physics), then a couple more advanced bio classes. i think retaking the classes helped me do well on the mcat, that and the kaplan mini-mcats and examcrackers, both of which i can not recommend highly enough. studying on my own i got a 32S. now i have been accepted to a one year post-bacc physiology program at U. Cincinnati which i will start in august, and have also submitted my first amcas application. i don't think i could have gotten into the uc program had i not taken some classes again and done well on the post bacc, and i don't see how i could get into med school without the uc program. not that i'm in, but i realize that this is the best thing i can do right now to have a strongest application possible for me. i would love not to have a lag year, but i will give myself two chances i think. i don't know what to tell you about the mcat, have you taken a practice test yet? maybe that would help give you a ball park range of what you would score today. i'd say if it's 26 or under right now, you might want to wait.
best wishes and good luck...

p.s. i am 28, married, and would also like to have kids before 40 i think we are kindred spirits

 

[powerpuff_girl]

Thank you all. I have two months until the MCAT and I do not feel adequately prepared. I took bio, chem, and o-chem 6-8 years ago and I am trying to re-learn everything within a three month period. I am feeling overwhelmed with all the material. Plus my husband and I are trying to sell our home and will be moving sometime July or August. I just graduated with my Master's last month but I am finishing two classes and my practicum. I am preparing with examcrackers and scoring between 6 and 8. I know retaking the classes will not boost my undergraduate G.P.A. that much but maybe it can help me with the MCAT.

 

[powerpuff_girl]

Thank you. Good luck to you too

 

[1Path]

I know retaking the classes will not boost my undergraduate G.P.A. that much but maybe it can help me with the MCAT.

I'll have to disagree with not retaking the preq courses for the MCAT. The HUGE mistake I've made in recent years is in NOT retaking the preq classes I originally took over 15 years ago. Sure it wouldn't have helped my undergrad GPA much but it would almost certainly helped with the MCAT. Everyone talks about how numbers are only one part of the application package but the first question I'm asked whenever I speak with a med school or adcom member is what is your MCAT.

So I think I would do both retake preqs and do either do a post bacc of upper division classes OR get an MS in a medical science. I would also shoot for applying next summer and take a Spring 2007 MCAT. Better to have a well put together app package and get in the first time than to "rush" and have to reapply next year. Good luck!

PS I also have a family with 2 kids!

 

[Instatewaiter]

I would agree with taking the spring 2007 MCATs. With what seems like a lot on your plate right now, it is not worth taking it in August and risking a poor score. Since this seems like your last chance, make it count. I would recommend continuing to study like you were going to take it in August but just taking it in April.

In terms of re-taking the classes to improve your MCATs, that is kinda worthless. Your goal is to improve your MCATs and I feel you will just be wasting time by taking the classes again. Instead tailor your study time to specific MCAT knowledge. A lot of what you learn in the basic science classes is more advanced than the MCATs. The books from Kaplan and to a lesser extent Exam Crackers will provide you with all of the information that you need and will give you the knowlege much more efficiently (1000 pages of Kaplan or 5000 pages of basic science texts). I was in a similar situation: I got lower grades in my required classes than you powerpuff, but did very well on the MCATs just by memorizing the info in the Kaplan books and taking practice exams. If you do not already have, you can buy full length MCAT exams from AAMC and some kaplan/princeton review centers will let you pay to sit in on their saturday practice exams.

In terms of worries about your grades, retaking classes will not do too much for you. Instead look to separate yourself from the poor performance in undergrad and show that you have turned a new leaf. A good way to do this is a special masters program or graduate level post-bac program (1 year long). After a poor undergrad performance, you can show that you are able to perform at a high level in the basic sciences (physiology, biochemistry, anatomy etc). A second undergrad degree will give you significantly less capital to work with, especially after an advanced degree (MPH).

Possible grad level post bac's or SMPs
Virginia: EVMS, UVA (1st year offered), VCU (I did this one)
Ohio: Ucincinatti, Medical University of ohio
DC: American, Georgetown (good success rate here)
PA: Drexel, Duquesne, Lake erie (osteopathic) Philly College of Osteo
NY: NY medical college, SUNY
N.E: Brandeis, Bennington, Dartmouth

There are a lot of others. You can find them on the AAMC website.
These programs are a great opportunity, and at many of them, the top 10% in the class is gauranteed admission. If you do well in these programs, you will have a great shot of getting into an allopathic med school, but understand that these are your last shot. Do poorly and your dream will end abruptly. I did the program at VCU this year and got into VCU Medical school despite a 2.8 Ugrad GPA. It is do-able but you have to go all out.

PM me if you have questions

 

[seanmeiner]

I'd like to refresh this original poster's question... I have the identical question, though my situation and background are different.

Basically, I know that one of my weakpoints on my application has been a low GPA. Though my average GPA is 3.2 in both BCPM and overall, I do have C grades in OChem, Genetics, and Immuno. I've retaken Genetics and scored an A in an unofficial postbacc program, so that's one undergrad class that I've redone and done well in. But I also took Histo and Physio and also scored A grades, so I've taken "post-bac" classes (upper level undergrad courses that I've never taken before) and done well too.

But when I applied, although I did recieve a great number of secondaries, I wasn't offered any interviews at all. It seems like the [slight] improvement in GPA wasn't enough, but what concerns me more is that retaking undergrad classes AND taking advanced post bacc classes don't seem to be doing much for me.

Coming Fall, I have to decide between retaking OChem, PChem and Immuno at Rice U in TX or entering a SMP in Biomedical Sciences at RFU in IL. It sort of boils down to what would help me more: fixing my C and low B grades from undergrad or taking PGY-1 classes.

Here's what I've been considering so far:
- Undergrad classes can help with the MCAT, and at least provide a more relaxed schedule to study for the MCAT/do ECs/focus on apps
- D.O. schools supposedly take the higher grade for undergrad classes that your retake
- If I retake classes, I can prove that my GPA slipups were due to other faults rather than lack of intelligence or capability
- Other threads claim a graduate GPA is less weighty to the Admissions Committees than undergrad GPA
- I will come out of the SMP with a Master's degree in Biomedical Sciences and a guarantee of interview at RFU
- Some threads claim that good grades in higher level courses are far more impressive as an indicator of success than retaking courses and scoring well
- The SMP at RFU is MUCH more competitive than undergrad at Rice- a double edged sword (students will probably work much harder to maintain grades, but admissions officers may realize that and interpret the GPAs to reflect that)

I'm really looking for some guidance. Since this is my first post, I hope I haven't broken any rules by making it so long or putting it in the wrong place. Any input, though, would be useful.

Thanks.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I'd like to refresh this original poster's question... I have the identical question, though my situation and background are different.

Basically, I know that one of my weakpoints on my application has been a low GPA. Though my average GPA is 3.2 in both BCPM and overall, I do have C grades in OChem, Genetics, and Immuno. I've retaken Genetics and scored an A in an unofficial postbacc program, so that's one undergrad class that I've redone and done well in. But I also took Histo and Physio and also scored A grades, so I've taken "post-bac" classes (upper level undergrad courses that I've never taken before) and done well too.

But when I applied, although I did recieve a great number of secondaries, I wasn't offered any interviews at all. It seems like the [slight] improvement in GPA wasn't enough, but what concerns me more is that retaking undergrad classes AND taking advanced post bacc classes don't seem to be doing much for me.

Coming Fall, I have to decide between retaking OChem, PChem and Immuno at Rice U in TX or entering a SMP in Biomedical Sciences at RFU in IL. It sort of boils down to what would help me more: fixing my C and low B grades from undergrad or taking PGY-1 classes.

Here's what I've been considering so far:
- Undergrad classes can help with the MCAT, and at least provide a more relaxed schedule to study for the MCAT/do ECs/focus on apps
- D.O. schools supposedly take the higher grade for undergrad classes that your retake
- If I retake classes, I can prove that my GPA slipups were due to other faults rather than lack of intelligence or capability
- Other threads claim a graduate GPA is less weighty to the Admissions Committees than undergrad GPA
- I will come out of the SMP with a Master's degree in Biomedical Sciences and a guarantee of interview at RFU
- Some threads claim that good grades in higher level courses are far more impressive as an indicator of success than retaking courses and scoring well
- The SMP at RFU is MUCH more competitive than undergrad at Rice- a double edged sword (students will probably work much harder to maintain grades, but admissions officers may realize that and interpret the GPAs to reflect that)

I'm really looking for some guidance. Since this is my first post, I hope I haven't broken any rules by making it so long or putting it in the wrong place. Any input, though, would be useful.

Thanks.

First off, DO schools usually take the more recent coursework "When computing repeated
courses, only count the last time you repeated the course." Not the highest grade.

Your GPA isn't that bad of a position. You might consider other SMP programs as I Know RFA is costly but if you like the program and think you can do well you have a chance.

 

[Instatewaiter]

With a 3.2 I am surprised that you did not get any interviews. While you should look into improving the grades and MCATs, I suspect there are other weaknesses in your application. Do you have enough volunteer experience? Have you shadowed Drs or volunteered at a free clinic? Do you have research experience? Schools are not only looking for kids that are smart but also those who have a good grasp on what it means to be a doctor. These are easy fixes to make a lack-luster application stand out. Try to look as compasionate as possible. IF you can, cure cancer.

The decision ahead of you will hinge on a few things. Do you want to go to an Allopathic or osteopathic (DO) school? If you choose D.O. then go ahead and retake the undergrad classes since the new and not the old will count. Plus, traditionally it is much easier to get into a DO school. The choice for DO vs MD will hinge on your prefered specialty. Many times it is more difficult to get a residency with a DO and some programs will not accept D.O.'s.
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If you are trying to get an MD, the undergrad classes will not really help all that much. I figure you graduated with say 120 credits. If you take 30 hours worth of undergrad courses and score straight A's on them, you only raise your average to around a 3.35. If you get a 3.7 in the classes, your new average would be a 3.3. While either of these is an improvement, it may not give you the boost you need.

While retaking classes will show that you are capable of doing the work, there are a few problems. First of all, med schools will expect that you get A's in the retakes. If you don't score an A, you basically wasted your time. Also, Undergrad courses will not look as good as graduate level classes. This does not mean that the Ugrad GPA does not matter. For you though, the damage has been done and with over 120 credits at 3.2, it will be hard to raise your GPA substantially.

In terms of which Ugrad classes to take, if that is the course of action you choose (retake vs upper level), I would go with the upper level. Do you really feel that even the second time around you can get an 'A' in Ochem? If not, a 'B+' in 400 level Biochemistry will look 100 times better than a 'B+' in the 200 level Ochem class that you are taking for the second time.

But, instead of Undergrad classes, I would recommend doing an SMP. These programs are designed for kids who have some smudges on their transcript. You are thus being compared to a different group of people. Beware though, all of the kids in these programs are gunning for med school. The coursework will also be harder. B's in these programs will not cut it at all. However, all A's and you are basically gauranteed to be accepted. Comparatively, if you get all A's in Ugrad classes, it is still a toss up.

I did what was basically an SMP this year. I did much worse than you did in Ugrad and got in this year to an Allopathic school (MD).

To sum up:
A's in SMP are vastly better than A's in Ugrad work and will essentially gaurantee acceptance
B's in SMP will not do you too much good and many schools may feel that you are an even weaker candidate. In that case you may have a better shot without the SMP.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I need advice on which route I should take. I graduated from college in 2001 with a G.P.A. of 2.87. I had transferred from other colleges and my G.P.A. was lower for those schools so my overall combined undergraduate G.P.A. is very low. I received few a's and mostly b's in my basic science courses. I took the MCAT 3 years ago and received a 23 so I need to retake the MCAT. I have started to study for the August MCAT but I am having a difficult time. I have forgotten a lot since I graduated. I have a Master's in Public Health with a 3.82 G.P.A. My questions:

Should I pursue a post bac to bring up my science G.P.A. or should I retake bio, chem., o-chem. and anatomy (I received a b+ for the first semester and an a+ 2nd semester in physics). Then take the MCAT next year? I am afraid I will not do well on the August MCAT. If I take it this August it will be my third time. I would hate to do poorly and have to retake it again. But then again I would hate not to take the MCAT this summer because I spent so much $$$ on prep books plus the $210 fee. The MCAT is changing so I do not know if the prep books are changing also.

I have thought of maybe pursing a second undergraduate degree but that would take over a year. If I redo my sciences in two semesters, I will then be better prepared for the MCAT and then I can obtain a post bac for the 2007-2008 year.

Advise please. I have made academic mistakes in the past and I am paying for them now. I just do not want to make another mistake, plus I am married and 27 and I do not want to be in school forever. I would like to have a family one day. I have a love for medicine but when does one cross the line and say "you know, maybe it's not meant". How many times does one try to get into medical school?

Sincerely,

PG

If you want to review take some of the science classes but I would advise against it. I'd used that money for a MCAT class. I would take some more classes to try to boost you GPA, what is your science GPA? Is that above a 3.2? If not take more upper level classes. Enroll as a 2nd dgree candidate. Take your time. I'm the same age as you with a lower GPA. I am doing the prereqs retaking where I didn't do so hot and then I'm going to be applying to masters programs. Its hard being married (and my hubby is a MSIV so that throws MORE into the mix) and making a decision what to do but you need to figure out what is best for you. I'm retaking most classes I got less than a C in (except quant chem - I could care less about that class) and I'm reviewing all the basic sciences. You didn't do so hot on the MCAT the first time. You need all the prep you can get as with that LOW MCAT you need to shine on the MCAT.

Remember its a marathon not a sprint to get to med school. You're plenty young and if medicine is truly what you want to do then you'll get there. By the way, this would be the 3rd time taking the MCAT but you didn't list the score for the 2nd time? After 3 times you have to get special exception to take the MCAT again so beweare.