pre-interview dinner to go or not?

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pedsdoc2013

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I understand the general sentiment that going is important for you to learn about the program. Also, that when all is said and done it likely doesn't make that much of a difference in how a program ranks you and is really just there for us.

However, I generally am not super good/social in these types of situations and honestly think I'll say something kinda dumb and it would end up hurting me in the end... so in this case do you guys think it's best to just skip these to avoid potentially hurting myself?

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I understand the general sentiment that going is important for you to learn about the program. Also, that when all is said and done it likely doesn't make that much of a difference in how a program ranks you and is really just there for us.

However, I generally am not super good/social in these types of situations and honestly think I'll say something kinda dumb and it would end up hurting me in the end... so in this case do you guys think it's best to just skip these to avoid potentially hurting myself?

I think you should go. At the very least, you get to see your potential colleagues is a setting other than work. Remember that you will be spending several years with these people so this is a good chance to see if you will gel with them as a group. For the most part, your co-residents will become a semi-constant part of your social life for a while especially if you move to a new city where you dont have friends already.
 
I understand the general sentiment that going is important for you to learn about the program. Also, that when all is said and done it likely doesn't make that much of a difference in how a program ranks you and is really just there for us.

However, I generally am not super good/social in these types of situations and honestly think I'll say something kinda dumb and it would end up hurting me in the end... so in this case do you guys think it's best to just skip these to avoid potentially hurting myself?

You should go. The dinner is an opportunity for you to learn more about the program and to see if you might get along socially with the residents.
 
I understand the general sentiment that going is important for you to learn about the program. Also, that when all is said and done it likely doesn't make that much of a difference in how a program ranks you and is really just there for us.

However, I generally am not super good/social in these types of situations and honestly think I'll say something kinda dumb and it would end up hurting me in the end... so in this case do you guys think it's best to just skip these to avoid potentially hurting myself?

I know for a fact that certain programs in certain specialties take into account the dinner from the night before and how an applicant acts in their ranking process. Most programs don't do this, but just be aware that some do.

You should make the effort to brush up on your social skills and go. You learn a lot based on what is said and not said at these things.
 
I know for a fact that certain programs in certain specialties take into account the dinner from the night before and how an applicant acts in their ranking process. Most programs don't do this, but just be aware that some do.

You should make the effort to brush up on your social skills and go. You learn a lot based on what is said and not said at these things.

I've had several attendings mention that as residents they had veto power when it came to applicants. This was mentioned in reference to dinners, specifically. People who acted extremely bizarre or like jerks would get shot down. As explained to me, not only is this your opportunity to see how you interact and get along with your possible co-residents, but it is also a chance for them to do the same with you.
 
Business casual? Pre-interview dinner next week.
 
If they say "informal dinner"...does that mean business casual too? Or would I get a red flag for wearing a polo and jeans?
 
If they say "informal dinner"...does that mean business casual too? Or would I get a red flag for wearing a polo and jeans?

Dress Code:

Family Practice: pleat front Khakis with button down shirt; tie optional depending on time of day

EM: short sleeve/muscle shirt to show off your tribal tattoo, cargo pants

PRS: Ermenegildo Zegna or Hugo Boss suit, blonde highlights and flashy watch

Pathology: short sleeve shirt, pocket protector, scrub bottoms or jeans with stains of uncertain origin

Neuro: see path

Peds: tie with animal characters, wallet with pictures of your kids

Joking aside, its a mistake not to go IMHO unless you have a real reason. The residents absolutely do have some input. This allows them to see you (and you to see them) in a more relaxed atmosphere.
 
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If they say "informal dinner"...does that mean business casual too? Or would I get a red flag for wearing a polo and jeans?

If they say 'informal' then wear what you would normally wear if someone told you 'informal'. Polo & jeans is fine.
 
I understand the general sentiment that going is important for you to learn about the program. Also, that when all is said and done it likely doesn't make that much of a difference in how a program ranks you and is really just there for us.

However, I generally am not super good/social in these types of situations and honestly think I'll say something kinda dumb and it would end up hurting me in the end... so in this case do you guys think it's best to just skip these to avoid potentially hurting myself?

At some if these pre interview dinners the views of the residents do matter and will affect how you are ranked. I personally would consider this part of the interview and put on your best game face. The odds of you hurting yourself are less than the odds of enough people who show up helping themselves up a few rank spots an bumping you out of consideration.
 
MOST of the time these dinners aren't required, but some places do seem to hold it against you if you don't go.
When I was interviewing, there were a couple of places that talked about the dinner as "day 1" of the interview. At one place, the chairman of the dept even gave a talk during the pre-interview cocktail party (though it's not normal for faculty to go to these things, it was very clear at that place that they expected you to be there to hear what he had to say).
At my residency program, they don't track attendance at the dinner, but we residents ARE encouraged to mention any feedback we have about applicants, positive or negative.
Even if the only thing a resident says about the applicant they met at dinner is "I liked talking to X. I think he'd be a good fit here" and they don't say anything at all about you because you weren't there, that's enough that it could bump the applicant who was there into matching and you won't match there.
I know that these kinds of social situations are not always easy, but you can make it through. :) Try thinking of a crazy amount of questions to ask about the residency. People will keep asking you "Do you have any questions" throughout the interview season so you want to prepare a ton of them anyway, plus the more that the resident is talking about the program the less chance there is you'll say something inappropriate or awkward. :)
 
...
At my residency program, they don't track attendance at the dinner, but we residents ARE encouraged to mention any feedback we have about applicants, positive or negative.
Even if the only thing a resident says about the applicant they met at dinner is "I liked talking to X. I think he'd be a good fit here" and they don't say anything at all about you because you weren't there, that's enough that it could bump the applicant who was there into matching and you won't match there...

this. Residents aren't without a role in the process and do provide input on every applicnt they meet and the PD takes those opinions into consideration in ranking. Every year at programs I have info on the only ones who match are among the group that gets a thumbs up from the residents, usually after chatting with them at the pre-interview dinner. I don't think it's coincidental. While there is usually a lunch or tour here you get to meet a few of the residents in interview day, by skipping the dinner you are putting your eggs into one basket. You are better off at an event where people are not at work, drinking, and generally in a better mood IMHO.

I also would suggest that you can tell a lot about a program by how well attended these dinners are, and can learn a lot from folks outside of the work setting.
 
What about for a prelim year only? I don't have the time to go to all my advanced interviews and prelim and do dinners at both. I will be at the advanced for sure but can I skip my prelim night before dinners since they are mainly for the categoricals anyway?
 
What about for a prelim year only? I don't have the time to go to all my advanced interviews and prelim and do dinners at both. I will be at the advanced for sure but can I skip my prelim night before dinners since they are mainly for the categoricals anyway?

Go if you can (free food!) but don't get too worked up about it.
 
Hey - I love free food! Problem is I'm also trying to juggle time away from even (light) rotations, and I just don't know what I can swing.
 
Oy vey...seriously?

Don't wear jeans. Let somebody else be "that guy."

Really? We can't wear jeans and a polo? Every invite I've received so far says CASUAL. I consider that jeans and a tee, but since its considered an "interview" I was going to wear jeans with a polo or button down.
 
Really? We can't wear jeans and a polo? Every invite I've received so far says CASUAL. I consider that jeans and a tee, but since its considered an "interview" I was going to wear jeans with a polo or button down.

Mine so far have all said "casual dress, so jeans are perfectly fine." They all specifically mentioned jeans being appropriate, though that's peds and I feel like we live on a different wavelength.
 
Really? We can't wear jeans and a polo? Every invite I've received so far says CASUAL. I consider that jeans and a tee, but since its considered an "interview" I was going to wear jeans with a polo or button down.

In a professional setting, I always interpret "casual" as "business casual." I'm not sure why anybody would really want to show up in jeans... why not just go with the safe bet? Is it really that important to wear jeans?
 
In a professional setting, I always interpret "casual" as "business casual." I'm not sure why anybody would really want to show up in jeans... why not just go with the safe bet? Is it really that important to wear jeans?

Casual means causal, but since this is an interview dinner you should exercise common sense. e.g. nice jeans should be fine, but tank top etc is obviously not. Again... use common sense. It's an interview dinner, so be yourself and go and see if you can learn something about the program.
 
Come on guys... Are we med students that poorly dressed? Make an effort to look presentable.
 
As a resident who attends these dinners, I promise I will be wearing jeans to every single one of them this year. And I also promise that if you act really weird, that information will make its way to the PD. That doesn't mean you should be uptight - you really shouldn't - but you are being watched.
 
Come on guys... Are we med students that poorly dressed? Make an effort to look presentable.

Aww come on, jeans aren't dirty and grimy :oops:
It's not like it's muddy trucker jeans haha

But, I see what people are saying, and unless they explicity say it's ok to wear XXX, being conservative is the route to go.
 
residents wore jeans last year at my interview dinners. I always err on the side of caution and choose to wear something that I would wear when going out for dinner on a friday night (nice pants, wingtips, a slim dress shirt + a simple tie). Fits the situation perfect as the overall look is neat and tidy without looking over dressed.
 
residents wore jeans last year at my interview dinners.
And those residents already have jobs. You don't.

I assure you that, when they're going on fellowship or job interviews they won't be wearing jeans to the pre-interview dinner.
 
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I think it does depend on the specialty. For my program's dinner (psychiatry), nice jeans and a button-down shirt or polo would be fine, but showing up wearing what you wore during your interview would be too.

And from the residents' perspective, you can come out from the dinner in a couple categories:
1. Did not attend / Made no lasting impression
2. Bizarre / Annoying / Inappropriate
3. Shy or socially awkward but not in a category #2 way
4. Fun/interesting to talk to and hang out with

As long as you don't fall into category #2, you should be fine.
 
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I think it does depend on the specialty. For my program's dinner (psychiatry), nice jeans and a button-down shirt or polo would be fine, but showing up wearing what you wore during your interview would be too.

And from the residents' perspective, you can come out from the dinner in a couple categories:
1. Did not attend / Made no lasting impression
2. Bizarre / Annoying / Inappropriate
3. Shy or socially awkward but not in a category #2 way
4. Fun/interesting to talk to and hang out with

As long as you don't fall into category #2, you should be fine.

Except that if you are in group 1, others who made a positive lasting impression are going to leapfrog you on the rank list. PDs take the residents comments to heart. They will bump up the guys the residents like a few notches on the rank list, and vice versa. If you aren't on anyone's radar, you generally get leapfrogged.
 
When not instructed on the dress code by the school (rarely), I have called the restaurant and asked what the dress code is there and dress appropriately.
 
I have this interview in a couple of weeks. The program is not paying for my hotel but wants me to attend the evening-before-dinner. So, that will make the dinner $85.00 because if not for the dinner, I could really drive over there the morning of interview (2 hr drive). Oh well...
 
I have this interview in a couple of weeks. The program is not paying for my hotel but wants me to attend the evening-before-dinner. So, that will make the dinner $85.00 because if not for the dinner, I could really drive over there the morning of interview (2 hr drive). Oh well...

Unfortunately the $85 just has to be looked at as a small investment toward your career. If that's the most you end up wasting on the interview trail, you got off cheap. There will be folks who spend hundreds of dollars to interview at places they ultimately decide not to even rank.
 
Unfortunately the $85 just has to be looked at as a small investment toward your career. If that's the most you end up wasting on the interview trail, you got off cheap. There will be folks who spend hundreds of dollars to interview at places they ultimately decide not to even rank.

Yep, travelled out of state and spent lots of other money too. I am finding this whole process very expensive.
 
Medical school is expensive. We spend thousands of dollars on books, q banks, clothes, what's a hundred dollars at a hotel the night before (which is half you would normally pay if it weren't for a residency discount). Also, driving two hours at 5am and hoping you don't get there late for a likely 715am interview sounds like madness. I already sleep like crap the night before interviews, I can't imagine you will be well-rested that day.
 
Medical school is expensive. We spend thousands of dollars on books, q banks, clothes, what's a hundred dollars at a hotel the night before (which is half you would normally pay if it weren't for a residency discount). Also, driving two hours at 5am and hoping you don't get there late for a likely 715am interview sounds like madness. I already sleep like crap the night before interviews, I can't imagine you will be well-rested that day.

I appreciate the comments. But, I get up early everyday 4:30-5:00AM. I also sleep like a rock before the interview, having done interviews many times in my previous career helps. In fact, travel seems to tire me out and I sleep better than normal:laugh:
Anyhow, went to the interview, came back. They talked about a prematch offer of some sort. Not sure if I will take it (if I am offered) but something to think about.
 
They talked about a prematch offer of some sort. Not sure if I will take it (if I am offered) but something to think about.

...uh they can't offer you a spot outside the match at all. It's against the nrmp's rules. If an institution is registered with the nrmp then ALL spots in EVERY program at that institution must be only given in the match/SOAP. So they cannot offer you a spot outside the match. They can tell you they have "ranked you to match" but the spot must still be in the match process.
 
...uh they can't offer you a spot outside the match at all. It's against the nrmp's rules. If an institution is registered with the nrmp then ALL spots in EVERY program at that institution must be only given in the match/SOAP. So they cannot offer you a spot outside the match. They can tell you they have "ranked you to match" but the spot must still be in the match process.

That is what I thought. But this program is funded differently and thus is unique. They were pretty sure about that.
 
...uh they can't offer you a spot outside the match at all. It's against the nrmp's rules. If an institution is registered with the nrmp then ALL spots in EVERY program at that institution must be only given in the match/SOAP. So they cannot offer you a spot outside the match. They can tell you they have "ranked you to match" but the spot must still be in the match process.

I don't think it has to be every program at an institution. For example: the IM residency at an institution might want to go prematch-only, while the general surgery residency might want to keep it all in the match.
 
I believe that there are still exceptions for dually-accredited (AOA/ACGME) programs to pre-match DOs prior to the DO Match. Post-AOA match though, they have to be either all-in or all-out.
 
I believe that there are still exceptions for dually-accredited (AOA/ACGME) programs to pre-match DOs prior to the DO Match. Post-AOA match though, they have to be either all-in or all-out.

Yep, this. I got the phone call today...
 
i just found out about the pre interview dinner today and my interview is next week, i think the pc was busy and forgot to include it in the original invitation...i already bought my flight ticket and have an interview the day prior, how bad will it look if i dont go...this is for psych
 
i just found out about the pre interview dinner today and my interview is next week, i think the pc was busy and forgot to include it in the original invitation...i already bought my flight ticket and have an interview the day prior, how bad will it look if i dont go...this is for psych
It's obviously preferable if you go because it gets you a chance to look at the program and the current residents in more detail but sometimes scheduling does not allow for it.

If you are asked about it, please don't comment about it being the Cordinator's fault. You can simply mention that you were unavailable or had a prior interview the night before. That's common and no one will think twice about it.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but the interview dinner question is a unique part of the application process that a lot of people don't understand (and I didn't really either when I went through it).

The pre-interview dinner is a test. To successfully pass it, you need to do the following things:

1. Attend
2. Arrive on time
3. Wear business casual dress. Do not wear jeans, do not wear shortsleeves, do not wear a suit, do not wear a tie. Men, this means slacks with a button-up shirt with the top button left loose. No matter what they tell you, this is what you should wear, period.
4. Make small-talk with everybody in the room and smile. Don't keep to yourself, don't be boisterous and tell ridiculous stories. Don't ask too many questions. Don't be annoying.
5. Do not order alcohol. If you want to drink, you can do this when you get back to your hotel room. Alternatively, only if every single resident has ordered an alcoholic drink and most of the applicants have as well, you can have a maximum of one, either beer or wine, and drink it slowly. However, the lower risk strategy is to abstain completely. You do not want to be the guy who shows up 10 minutes late and immediately orders a beer only to realize that nobody else is drinking anything and that they are not paying for it requiring the bill to be split for you. This happened to me.
6. Order something modest from the menu.
7. Do not pull out your phone even once.
8. Do not leave early.
9. Do not go out afterwards.

Do these things and you'll pass the test. Think of the pre-interview dinner as a test and you'll be better off. If you're thinking of it as a fun social outing, which it certainly could be if you ignored all of the above, then you risk screwing it up. It's painful and something you have to get through. You can go out for real with your friends and relax when you get back home. Programs are different. Treat everything like a test and you won't risk screwing up your rank at the spot where the residents opinion actually matters. Programs can do ridiculously petty things when it comes to ranking. So-and-so wore too much make-up to the pre-interview dinner and was flirting with the waiter, lets leave her at the bottom for now.... it happens.
 
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I realize this is an old thread, but the interview dinner question is a unique part of the application process that a lot of people don't understand (and I didn't really either when I went through it).

The pre-interview dinner is a test. To successfully pass it, you need to do the following things:

1. Attend
2. Arrive on time
3. Wear business casual dress. Do not wear jeans, do not wear shortsleeves, do not wear a suit, do not wear a tie. Men, this means slacks with a button-up shirt with the top button left loose. No matter what they tell you, this is what you should wear, period.
4. Make small-talk with everybody in the room and smile. Don't keep to yourself, don't be boisterous and tell ridiculous stories. Don't ask too many questions. Don't be annoying.
5. Do not order alcohol. If you want to drink, you can do this when you get back to your hotel room. Alternatively, only if every single resident has ordered an alcoholic drink and most of the applicants have as well, you can have a maximum of one, either beer or wine, and drink it slowly. However, the lower risk strategy is to abstain completely. You do not want to be the guy who shows up 10 minutes late and immediately orders a beer only to realize that nobody else is drinking anything and that they are not paying for it requiring the bill to be split for you. This happened to me.
6. Order something modest from the menu.
7. Do not pull out your phone even once.
8. Do not leave early.
9. Do not go out afterwards.

Do these things and you'll pass the test. Think of the pre-interview dinner as a test and you'll be better off. If you're thinking of it as a fun social outing, which it certainly could be if you ignored all of the above, then you risk screwing it up. It's painful and something you have to get through. You can go out for real with your friends and relax when you get back home. Programs are different. Treat everything like a test and you won't risk screwing up your rank at the spot where the residents opinion actually matters. Programs can do ridiculously petty things when it comes to ranking. So-and-so wore too much make-up to the pre-interview dinner and was flirting with the waiter, lets leave her at the bottom for now.... it happens.

Before every one freaks out. The pre-interview dinner should not bring out this much anxiety.

Better advice: Dress according to either the invite standard or the restaurant's code. Look at what residents do for your guide (Mine ordered drinks and specifically said that one drink a person was covered and to please get a drink (it was a microbrewery)) Ask simple questions and be nice. Show up a little early/on time. Ask the waiter/waitress what they recommend on the menu, order it +/- a salad (we were encouraged to get dessert and to have it wrapped to go). Act like a normal person. It's not hard.

The whole point of an interview/dinner is to see how you are and if you fit in. This means you should be interested in the mannerisms of the residents as well, they are the ones you'll be around a lot. Some places won't be a good fit for you from YOUR side. That's what this time is for.
 
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I realize this is an old thread, but the interview dinner question is a unique part of the application process that a lot of people don't understand (and I didn't really either when I went through it).

The pre-interview dinner is a test. To successfully pass it, you need to do the following things:

1. Attend
2. Arrive on time
3. Wear business casual dress. Do not wear jeans, do not wear shortsleeves, do not wear a suit, do not wear a tie. Men, this means slacks with a button-up shirt with the top button left loose. No matter what they tell you, this is what you should wear, period.
4. Make small-talk with everybody in the room and smile. Don't keep to yourself, don't be boisterous and tell ridiculous stories. Don't ask too many questions. Don't be annoying.
5. Do not order alcohol. If you want to drink, you can do this when you get back to your hotel room. Alternatively, only if every single resident has ordered an alcoholic drink and most of the applicants have as well, you can have a maximum of one, either beer or wine, and drink it slowly. However, the lower risk strategy is to abstain completely. You do not want to be the guy who shows up 10 minutes late and immediately orders a beer only to realize that nobody else is drinking anything and that they are not paying for it requiring the bill to be split for you. This happened to me.
6. Order something modest from the menu.
7. Do not pull out your phone even once.
8. Do not leave early.
9. Do not go out afterwards.

Do these things and you'll pass the test. Think of the pre-interview dinner as a test and you'll be better off. If you're thinking of it as a fun social outing, which it certainly could be if you ignored all of the above, then you risk screwing it up. It's painful and something you have to get through. You can go out for real with your friends and relax when you get back home. Programs are different. Treat everything like a test and you won't risk screwing up your rank at the spot where the residents opinion actually matters. Programs can do ridiculously petty things when it comes to ranking. So-and-so wore too much make-up to the pre-interview dinner and was flirting with the waiter, lets leave her at the bottom for now.... it happens.


****, I think if you had to put this much thought into the pre-interview dinner, you might just be a little weird.
 
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I realize this is an old thread, but the interview dinner question is a unique part of the application process that a lot of people don't understand (and I didn't really either when I went through it).

The pre-interview dinner is a test. To successfully pass it, you need to do the following things:

1. Attend
2. Arrive on time
3. Wear business casual dress. Do not wear jeans, do not wear shortsleeves, do not wear a suit, do not wear a tie. Men, this means slacks with a button-up shirt with the top button left loose. No matter what they tell you, this is what you should wear, period.
4. Make small-talk with everybody in the room and smile. Don't keep to yourself, don't be boisterous and tell ridiculous stories. Don't ask too many questions. Don't be annoying.
5. Do not order alcohol. If you want to drink, you can do this when you get back to your hotel room. Alternatively, only if every single resident has ordered an alcoholic drink and most of the applicants have as well, you can have a maximum of one, either beer or wine, and drink it slowly. However, the lower risk strategy is to abstain completely. You do not want to be the guy who shows up 10 minutes late and immediately orders a beer only to realize that nobody else is drinking anything and that they are not paying for it requiring the bill to be split for you. This happened to me.
6. Order something modest from the menu.
7. Do not pull out your phone even once.
8. Do not leave early.
9. Do not go out afterwards.

Do these things and you'll pass the test. Think of the pre-interview dinner as a test and you'll be better off. If you're thinking of it as a fun social outing, which it certainly could be if you ignored all of the above, then you risk screwing it up. It's painful and something you have to get through. You can go out for real with your friends and relax when you get back home. Programs are different. Treat everything like a test and you won't risk screwing up your rank at the spot where the residents opinion actually matters. Programs can do ridiculously petty things when it comes to ranking. So-and-so wore too much make-up to the pre-interview dinner and was flirting with the waiter, lets leave her at the bottom for now.... it happens.

Good advice all through, but I would definitely treat it more as a social outing than a business dinner. Just don't act like a weirdo or get hammered. And you can have a beer. I think 2 or 3 of my interviews last year were at breweries/bars.

That being said, the residents do discuss the interview dinner with the resident selection committee.
 
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